Sweater Vest Thread #1: Magic 94 - Cavs 85

[The Real Dalic]

This thread was a fun read. However, I do have to say I agree with Pepe on one thing. There is a clear hatred and bias against Vuc and Fournier. The 3 players that can really never do anything right in most eyes around here is Vuc, Fournier, and DJ. Meanwhile, Isaac, Bamba, and Fultz can do no wrong. It can get frustrating, but I've gotten used to it.

For the record, I voted for Fultz.

[Catledge]

This thread was a fun read. However, I do have to say I agree with Pepe on one thing. There is a clear hatred and bias against Vuc and Fournier. The 3 players that can really never do anything right in most eyes around here is Vuc, Fournier, and DJ. Meanwhile, Isaac, Bamba, and Fultz can do no wrong. It can get frustrating, but I've blgotten used to it.

For the record, I voted for Fultz.

I just read this thread for the first time during breaks in the action of the Auburn-LSU game (my wife went to Auburn), and I actually thought there were several interesting points made. I don't understand why people who don't enjoy the conversation don't just choose to not participate in it.

In any event, I voted for Vooch because I think he was clearly the best player (which is my general criteria for casting my vote), but I share the majority's enthusiasm for Fultz. I think Pepe's point that Fultz hasn't actually played that well yet is accurate, but I'm still pleased because he has gotten a little better every game. If he plateaus at this level, then I'll be disappointed, but I'll wait for him to actually plateau before I get sad about it.

[Xatticus]

This thread was a fun read. However, I do have to say I agree with Pepe on one thing. There is a clear hatred and bias against Vuc and Fournier. The 3 players that can really never do anything right in most eyes around here is Vuc, Fournier, and DJ. Meanwhile, Isaac, Bamba, and Fultz can do no wrong. It can get frustrating, but I've blgotten used to it.

For the record, I voted for Fultz.

Frankly, I see it quite the opposite and this thread is a perfect example as to why.

It was always inevitable that Fultz' first good performance in a win was going to win him a vest. It just so happens that Vucevic and Clifford both stated that he was the best player that night. The result of the vote should've been entirely predictable, and yet this predictable outcome has resulted in yet another thread rife with accusations of bias against Vucevic and Fournier. There is always someone quick to defend, even when no offense has been given.

It's just sort of a universal truth that the most egregious offenders of bias are the first to accuse others of it. I just tune it out when someone starts in with the tribalism, but I don't know how anyone can honestly claim that Isaac, Bamba, or Fultz are spared criticism around here.

This is one of the oldest and most effective tricks in politics. Every hack in the business has used it in times of trouble, and it has even been elevated to the level of political mythology in a story about one of Lyndon Johnson’s early campaigns in Texas. The race was close and Johnson was getting worried. Finally he told his campaign manager to start a massive rumor campaign about his opponent’s life-long habit of enjoying carnal knowledge of his own barnyard sows.

“Christ, we can’t get a way calling him a ****,” the campaign manager protested. “Nobody’s going to believe a thing like that.”

“I know,” Johnson replied. “But let’s make the sonofabitch deny it.”

Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail '72
-Hunter S. Thompson

[GelbeWand09]

This thread was a fun read. However, I do have to say I agree with Pepe on one thing. There is a clear hatred and bias against Vuc and Fournier. The 3 players that can really never do anything right in most eyes around here is Vuc, Fournier, and DJ. Meanwhile, Isaac, Bamba, and Fultz can do no wrong. It can get frustrating, but I've gotten used to it.

For the record, I voted for Fultz.

Not really true. Bamba is prolly the most criticised player of the last 12 months & Fultz got 1 real game for us so far, not sure how he is even up in the discussion.

[Ducklett]

This thread was a fun read. However, I do have to say I agree with Pepe on one thing. There is a clear hatred and bias against Vuc and Fournier. The 3 players that can really never do anything right in most eyes around here is Vuc, Fournier, and DJ. Meanwhile, Isaac, Bamba, and Fultz can do no wrong. It can get frustrating, but I've gotten used to it.

For the record, I voted for Fultz.

I don't hide my anti-Evan bias. I have hated him since we picked him over Oladipo. I thought it was a huge mistake then, I think its a huge mistake now, I think he gotten opportunity after opportunity and never makes the most it, and we had to sit through years of buddy ball. Is he our worst player? No. But he is the Magic player is dislike the most.

[ORLMagicGirl15]

You can't vote for Fournier. It's like a law.

Guy last year scored at least 20 points 22 times and won 2 vets.
In mean time Gordon scored 20 points 24 times and won 9 vets because he is Aaron " i swear next year he is allstar" Gordon.

Isaac scored 20 points once. Ofc has 4 vests , because, logic.

Vučević scored 20 points 45 times, won vest 16. Because, " insert vague stupidity here why block in first quater is more important than 20 points ____________"

And no, scoring shouldn't be ONLY standard for voting for best performance . But let's pump braeks right there and expose even more stupidity in this voting .
DJ Augustin had at least 8 assists 14 times last year, Magic have 12-2 record when he has at least 8 assists. Do you know how many vets 60% TS, best assist to TO ratio starting point guard won over 82 games?

Spoiler:

TWO, him and Evan had as many vests TOGETHER as Isaac.

.


I just hate hypocricy that is being hidden behind false objectivity. Most posters just vote for hottest young player that day. Been that way since rebuild start. That's why myth of Payton existed for 4 years.

I don't get into statistical arguments, because I just don't really care to do the grunt work and the analysis of any of it, but I was reading your post and thought to myself...hmmmmm.... is this true about Fournier?

To begun, as I was reading your post (and the others your wrote) this is what I assumed you meant:
1.) Vuc should win the vest for the game last night because he scored more points and just had a better overall effect in the game, statistics wise.
2.) The sweater vests should be awarded to those who not only had more points, but was consistent throughout the entire game. But let's be real, you put a pretty big emphasis on points being a bigger determination of the vest.
3.) That Fournier deserved more sweater vests based on the fact that he scored 20+ points in 22 games, and that 2 sweater vests is a farce.

Assumption 3, is what I wanted to analyze. So I went back and looked at Fournier's game log on basketball reference for the 2018-2019 Basketball season and asked myself two questions: Why didn't he receive more sweater vests? And since Pepe speaks volumes on the actual scoring, why didn't Fournier receive more sweater vests based on his 20+ points?

All the information can be found here: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/f/fournev01/gamelog/2019/

Fact 1: Fournier scored 20+ points in 19 games.
Fact 2: We lost 11 of those games and sweater vests are not awarded in losses.
Fact 3: We won 8 of those games and based on his scoring had the potential to win 8 sweater vests.

Let's look at the 8 games
Against Utah, he scored the most points on the team with 24. https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201812150ORL.html
Against Atlanta, both him and Vuc scored 29. https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201901210ATL.html
Against NOP (away game), he scored 22 but Vuc had 25. https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201902120NOP.html
Against NOP (home game), he scored the most points with 22. https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201903200ORL.html
Against MEM he scored 27 but Ross had 31 points. https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201903220ORL.html
Against Philly, he scored 24 points but Vuc scored 28. https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201903250ORL.html
Against Atlanta, Fournier, Vuc, and Ross all scored 25 points each. https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201904050ORL.html
Against Bos, He had 24, but Vuc had 25 and Ross 26.https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201904070BOS.html

Fact 4: 2 games he scored the most points
Fact 5: 4 games another player outscored him
Fact 6: 2 games he tied with other players

There is only 2 games where he clearly had more points, he tied with another player(s) 2 other times, and those are all coin tosses (no pun intented). If we're awarding the vest strictly for most points, then Fournier should have won 2 vests. Because you know...logic. The only time he would have won more vests based on his 20+ performances would have been if he outshined Vuc or Ross in the games where they all tied.

To be clear, I don't actually remember which games Fournier won for the sweater vests and the two games that he scored the most points might not necessarily correlate with his vests wins, I'm just saying that if points are the biggest determination, then it makes sense that he only got 2 vests last season.

Now, if I misinterpreted your actual point about the awarding of the vests, my bad.

In 8 games he scored 20 points or more and team won, he was leading scorer or tied with another guy in 6 of them.
He won 6 vets. Co-relation 2/6. = 33%

Context.

Isaac.
Isaac won 4 vets, every time he scored 18 points he got vest.
He was NEVER leading scorer in any of that games.
4/4 games he reached acceptable points to win it , posters voted for him. 4 out of 4 times.

Did you know that Evan didn't won vest when he scored buzzerbeater vs Pistons?

Watch on YouTube

This is video and this is vote pole :

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1784915



Evan scores game winner vs Cavs

Watch on YouTube

Again Evan does not win a vets

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1764053

Another example of posters always choose not to vote for him if they chance, is game vs Hawks where he had 29 points ,7 assists.
Posters voted for Vučević who also had 29 points, just took 5 shots more to get there.

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1793767


Another game where Evan was realistic best player , vs Memphis ,where had 27 points, 8 rebounds ,6 assists ( 1 turnover) , posters voted for Ross, who indeed had great game ( 31 points, 8/12 for 3 ) but also had 0 assists in 36 min played.

This game in particular i got super annoyed about voting

This is Fournire contribution at end of a game

Evan Fournier makes two point shot (Nikola Vucevic assists)
Evan Fournier makes free throw 1 of 1
Evan Fournier makes 16-foot step back jumpshot
Evan Fournier makes free throw 1 of 2
Evan Fournier makes free throw 2 of 2

Guy scored 7 of Magic 13 points in OT and game tying layup for 110-110 before OT.

Who won ? Ross.

In this game in particular Evan contributed to 41 points with passes , Ross to 31 ( 0 assist! ) . Evan carried team through OT after he saved team to even get there. Ofc he didn't won vest.


Conclusion: my point still stands. Evan is big part of Magic offense and player who started all the games. For all his issues with outside shot he was still big part of Magic offense and guy simply deserved more vests than freaking 2 that he got over whole lenght of regular season. But every time fans have a chance to not vote for him- they will indeed - not vote for him. It's mindblowing that "points don't really matter" yet guy scores 2 buzzerbeaters and never wins vest for them. Like dude just made biggest shot of a game. it matters

You’ve added a variable that was not previously listed in your posts, “Buzzerbeaters”, which we can chalk up as “game winning plays” whether that was a buzzerbeater, a spark, a defensive segment, a coaching decision <— not qualified for the vest, an opponent, whatever else. It is those plays themselves that usually determine who wins the sweater vest. In Fournier’s case when he had a great game and we won, many voted based on “game winning plays” and maybe one of the other winning plays just outranked his.

Sorry, I cannot do your post justice. I am not a stats person and I cannot recall games like you do but I don’t remember Evan having a 41 point game last season but either way, I’m sorry he didn’t win as many vests as you would like. Maybe this is his year.

[pepe1991]

I don't get into statistical arguments, because I just don't really care to do the grunt work and the analysis of any of it, but I was reading your post and thought to myself...hmmmmm.... is this true about Fournier?

To begun, as I was reading your post (and the others your wrote) this is what I assumed you meant:
1.) Vuc should win the vest for the game last night because he scored more points and just had a better overall effect in the game, statistics wise.
2.) The sweater vests should be awarded to those who not only had more points, but was consistent throughout the entire game. But let's be real, you put a pretty big emphasis on points being a bigger determination of the vest.
3.) That Fournier deserved more sweater vests based on the fact that he scored 20+ points in 22 games, and that 2 sweater vests is a farce.

Assumption 3, is what I wanted to analyze. So I went back and looked at Fournier's game log on basketball reference for the 2018-2019 Basketball season and asked myself two questions: Why didn't he receive more sweater vests? And since Pepe speaks volumes on the actual scoring, why didn't Fournier receive more sweater vests based on his 20+ points?

All the information can be found here: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/f/fournev01/gamelog/2019/

Fact 1: Fournier scored 20+ points in 19 games.
Fact 2: We lost 11 of those games and sweater vests are not awarded in losses.
Fact 3: We won 8 of those games and based on his scoring had the potential to win 8 sweater vests.

Let's look at the 8 games
Against Utah, he scored the most points on the team with 24. https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201812150ORL.html
Against Atlanta, both him and Vuc scored 29. https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201901210ATL.html
Against NOP (away game), he scored 22 but Vuc had 25. https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201902120NOP.html
Against NOP (home game), he scored the most points with 22. https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201903200ORL.html
Against MEM he scored 27 but Ross had 31 points. https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201903220ORL.html
Against Philly, he scored 24 points but Vuc scored 28. https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201903250ORL.html
Against Atlanta, Fournier, Vuc, and Ross all scored 25 points each. https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201904050ORL.html
Against Bos, He had 24, but Vuc had 25 and Ross 26.https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201904070BOS.html

Fact 4: 2 games he scored the most points
Fact 5: 4 games another player outscored him
Fact 6: 2 games he tied with other players

There is only 2 games where he clearly had more points, he tied with another player(s) 2 other times, and those are all coin tosses (no pun intented). If we're awarding the vest strictly for most points, then Fournier should have won 2 vests. Because you know...logic. The only time he would have won more vests based on his 20+ performances would have been if he outshined Vuc or Ross in the games where they all tied.

To be clear, I don't actually remember which games Fournier won for the sweater vests and the two games that he scored the most points might not necessarily correlate with his vests wins, I'm just saying that if points are the biggest determination, then it makes sense that he only got 2 vests last season.

Now, if I misinterpreted your actual point about the awarding of the vests, my bad.

In 8 games he scored 20 points or more and team won, he was leading scorer or tied with another guy in 6 of them.
He won 6 vets. Co-relation 2/6. = 33%

Context.

Isaac.
Isaac won 4 vets, every time he scored 18 points he got vest.
He was NEVER leading scorer in any of that games.
4/4 games he reached acceptable points to win it , posters voted for him. 4 out of 4 times.

Did you know that Evan didn't won vest when he scored buzzerbeater vs Pistons?

Watch on YouTube

This is video and this is vote pole :

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1784915



Evan scores game winner vs Cavs

Watch on YouTube

Again Evan does not win a vets

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1764053

Another example of posters always choose not to vote for him if they chance, is game vs Hawks where he had 29 points ,7 assists.
Posters voted for Vučević who also had 29 points, just took 5 shots more to get there.

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1793767


Another game where Evan was realistic best player , vs Memphis ,where had 27 points, 8 rebounds ,6 assists ( 1 turnover) , posters voted for Ross, who indeed had great game ( 31 points, 8/12 for 3 ) but also had 0 assists in 36 min played.

This game in particular i got super annoyed about voting

This is Fournire contribution at end of a game

Evan Fournier makes two point shot (Nikola Vucevic assists)
Evan Fournier makes free throw 1 of 1
Evan Fournier makes 16-foot step back jumpshot
Evan Fournier makes free throw 1 of 2
Evan Fournier makes free throw 2 of 2

Guy scored 7 of Magic 13 points in OT and game tying layup for 110-110 before OT.

Who won ? Ross.

In this game in particular Evan contributed to 41 points with passes , Ross to 31 ( 0 assist! ) . Evan carried team through OT after he saved team to even get there. Ofc he didn't won vest.


Conclusion: my point still stands. Evan is big part of Magic offense and player who started all the games. For all his issues with outside shot he was still big part of Magic offense and guy simply deserved more vests than freaking 2 that he got over whole lenght of regular season. But every time fans have a chance to not vote for him- they will indeed - not vote for him. It's mindblowing that "points don't really matter" yet guy scores 2 buzzerbeaters and never wins vest for them. Like dude just made biggest shot of a game. it matters

You’ve added a variable that was not previously listed in your posts, “Buzzerbeaters”, which we can chalk up as “game winning plays” whether that was a buzzerbeater, a spark, a defensive segment, a coaching decision <— not qualified for the vest, an opponent, whatever else. It is those plays themselves that usually determine who wins the sweater vest. In Fournier’s case when he had a great game and we won, many voted based on “game winning plays” and maybe one of the other winning plays just outranked his.

Sorry, I cannot do your post justice. I am not a stats person and I cannot recall games like you do but I don’t remember Evan having a 41 point game last season but either way, I’m sorry he didn’t win as many vests as you would like. Maybe this is his year.

You made some amazing points, i remember reading it and i was impressed . Enjoyed reading it.

[drsd]

One almost wishes the Atlanta game had been won so a new sweater-vest thread could reset the conversation.

Are we gonna do a dunce-cap thread?

I'd vote Ross. Mr. Torch needs to get his vibe back!

..

[basketballRob]

One almost wishes the Atlanta game had been won so a new sweater-vest thread could reset the conversation.

Are we gonna do a dunce-cap thread?

I'd vote Ross. Mr. Torch needs to get his vibe back!

..

Fournier gets mine. 28.7 usage for a -16.5 net rating. Hard to overcome that. His buddy Nikola hasn't been much better.

They should start MCW over Fournier.

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