Regular Season Game 3: Orlando Magic (1-1) at Toronto Raptors (2-1) - 7:30pm ET

[NBlue]

If Vuc can't assert himself, you bench him simple as that. He's back to shooting mid range jumpers and getting pushed out the paint again. I can't handle another season of him playing this way. So far last season was an outlier.

I think Cliff was sending a message and I certainly think (well maybe hope) Vooch will respond. The one that was the straw that broke the camel's back was when he got the ball in the paint against Siakam in a clear mismatch and then instead of attacking Siakam he just threw the ball back out to a basically covered teammate. It wasn't good.

[NBlue]

I cannot make this up, through 3 games our starters have a -51.6 net rating. Our second most-played lineup replaces DJ with Fultz and it has a positive 21 net rating. Starting Fultz is the most obvious move in the league right now.

Still a crazy small sample size so take all of these numbers with a grain of salt, but to compound off of this...

Augustin/Ross are +28.5 NET
Augustin/Aminu are +28.2 NET
Augustin/MCW are +17.9 NET

Augustin/Fournier are -29.0
Augustin/Isaac are -27.1
Augustin/Gordon are -22.4

So Augustin has been really effective when playing with the bench guys, but really horrible playing with the starters. Fultz has been really good playing with the starters...

Does 1 + 1 = 2 in this case or is the sample size still too small to make an official determination is the big question. I *think* Clifford's going to give it a little more time to stabilize, but if after another 6-7 games this is still happening, I think the switch will have to be made.

The offense has been consistently awful, but the team has been holding its own when the starting unit isn't on the floor. It was something that was glossed over last year when discussing our defensive success, but our bench unit was far better than the starting unit defensively after we sorted out the rotation. The bench was only good at the offensive end when Ross was scorching, but it was consistently good at the defensive end and that kept us in games. It doesn't help that we have faced Young and Lowry in the last two games, but the Augustin, Fournier, and Vucevic combination has too many deficiencies at the defensive end.

This won't be a popular suggestion...

If we are intent on playing MCW, I'd prefer that we start him instead of Augustin. I'm not advocating for more minutes for MCW, but I believe his value is maximized by matching him up against the opposition's best offensive weapons. This would let us hide Fournier at the defensive end and it would give us a chance at defending the one-five pick-and-roll. You can still bring Fultz in early and let him finish halves. It would also allow us to stagger the minutes of Augustin and Fournier.

I am absolutely on board your crazy train. I've been thinking about this the last several days and almost scared to say it out loud but I feel exactly the same way. It seems unlikely that we will go that route -- at least initially -- but for me that brings in the value of having Iwundu and his energy, defense and, yes, pretty good shooting as well off the bench. IF we go 10 deep that would give us a second unit of MCW-Ross-Iwundu-Aminu-Bamba. Would be really interesting to see. Its not gonna happen anytime soon but still.

[Knightro]

Yeah there's no way Vuc and Ross can play this bad all year, but there's a good chance they don't make it back to the 100% mark and maybe land on 80%. That's probably no playoffs and wasted investments in them.

If the Magic really are a top 3 DTRG and DREB% team like they have been through three games, they *might* be able to get away with Vucevic and Ross giving 80% of what they gave last year.

[bargnanimvp]

You said this a few times in reply to me pointing out hypocritical posters (not you), but you see, in about 1-2 hours when someone comes in, posts how Bamba is **** for a paragraph, and then is like "oh yeah and Vuc, etc, etc need to play better", then leaves without addressing anything else, which I guarantee you will happen, I will quote you and ask you how there aren't people here that do not like talking about their favorite players when they're not impacting the team at all.

Our highest paid players need to play up to their contract, it's simple enough.

And DJ needs to come off the bench. He does not help in aiding any of our players by setting them up for an easy bucket when their shot isn't falling.

My point is just that if someone complains about Bamba that does not mean they also couldn't complain about 100 other things on this team. Bamba is just an obvious and easy disappointment right now because people get hyped and invested in youth. Everyone knows Vuc/Evans issues but with guys like Bamba (and hezonja had the same) people have put hope that they could be a future for the team so when it's a struggle it's going to create more negative posts. I do understand what you mean now though, there are some posters here who only seem to show up to gloat when x player does well and to bash y player when they don't play well and if the situation reverses they vanish.

Bamba is much better than Hezonja. Sure he's off to a slow start with 14 pt and 14 rebs in 40 minutes and a plus 12 net rating but I know he'll do better.

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I did not say he was not. But i mean it's a similar situation we had in mario's first year or two where people would slam him when we would lose and others would defend him and say he isn't the issue. Peopel were right mario alone was not the issue but being a young guy who should be showing us promise and excitement and not delivering that then yeah people will complain about him. Bamba's in the same boat right now, people disappointing in him aren't saying he is the reason we lose or the biggest issue in the team it's just they wanted more from him and our real issues have been present for like 5-6 seasons now so people are sick of moaning about those.

[penny_nz]

The thing was T Ross is everyone knows he blows hot and cold, its why he's a bench player and not starter material. The thing is you rely on other players having good nights, and certainly you expect an amount of consistency from your starting 5. So yes, Ross is cold but NORMALLY I wouldn't be too worried, he had runs like this last year. The fact it coincides with AG and Vuc being icicles is the biggest problem.

I'm actually least concerned with Vuc for some reason, I know he's our best C option. But AG, who I'm a huge fan of, has just been SO out of form, in pretty much every aspect of his game.

I'm also a big believer that in the next 10-15 games we should flip DJ and Fultz, its obvious Fultz is bringing a spark and a level of playmaking that elevates that starting 5. I agree with previous posters, keeping him under the radar and coming off the bench for starter minutes makes sense to keep the pressure down but at some point you need to pull the pin.

[yoyojw17]

The thing was T Ross is everyone knows he blows hot and cold, its why he's a bench player and not starter material. The thing is you rely on other players having good nights, and certainly you expect an amount of consistency from your starting 5. So yes, Ross is cold but NORMALLY I wouldn't be too worried, he had runs like this last year. The fact it coincides with AG and Vuc being icicles is the biggest problem.

I'm actually least concerned with Vuc for some reason, I know he's our best C option. But AG, who I'm a huge fan of, has just been SO out of form, in pretty much every aspect of his game.

I'm also a big believer that in the next 10-15 games we should flip DJ and Fultz, its obvious Fultz is bringing a spark and a level of playmaking that elevates that starting 5. I agree with previous posters, keeping him under the radar and coming off the bench for starter minutes makes sense to keep the pressure down but at some point you need to pull the pin.

Agreed.... I think fultz is the linchpin to this team and this starting lineup. A playmaker is what we have needed for the longest and this kid seems to just be getting better and better. He can be that puppeteer that brings the best out of fournier, gordon, isaac and vuc. his ability to get to anyplace that he wants to on the court....