Game 4: New York Knicks @ Orlando Magic, 7:00 PM EST

[OrlandoNed]

Evan currently has the 2nd highest APG of any SG over 6'7" in the NBA.

That's an oddly specific caveat. If you have to be that specific, I have to be a bit skeptical of its importance.

[rcklsscognition]

Evan currently has the 2nd highest APG of any SG over 6'7" in the NBA.

That's an oddly specific caveat. If you have to be that specific, I have to be a bit skeptical of its importance.

I don't think there is another way to sort on NBA.com, it lumps PGs in with SGs as "Guards". The height separates out the listed SGs that are actually playing at PGs.

[NBlue]

It's the same story with all of you and him every season, it used to be he never passed to Oladipo. Then never passed to AG, now it's Isaac. Evan currently has the 2nd highest APG of any SG over 6'7" in the NBA.

Not really wanting to get into the great Evan debate but I'm glad he is at least making some shots this year. He remains an inefficient scorer. He has the ball in his hands a lot because he plays with DJ who is not ball dominant (or particularly creative) pg. I would actually love Evan as a 3rd or 4th option because of his lack of efficiency. When he looks to be a spot up shooter and then sometimes drive off of that I think he can be quite effective. I should note that in addition to having the "2nd highest APG of any SG over 6'7" in the NBA" as you note Evan actually has the highest APG of any 27 year-old player born in Saint-Maurice, France and earning 17 million per year in the entire NBA. Its true but not necessarily notable.

It is actually the same story with Evan. He's not a great or frequently not a willing passer. He can be a very good shooter. I'd like to see him in a position to focus on that second part. Perhaps when Fultz moves in with the starters we will see more of that.

[NBlue]

If you have an issue with **** passers, have a look at JI, who is literally the worst passer on our team, not that I care, because he is plenty good in many other areas.

You edited before I had a chance to see this but just to address briefly -- JI has an extremely efficient efg of .603 and a PER of 20.5 on the season which you can contrast with Evan's .517. If this was a competition to see who could be the best passer I think Evan would probably be better than JI. However, sadly, that is not how the NBA actually works. As you correctly note, it doesn't matter. What matters is that Evan has not been an efficient player and that is and has been his problem. However, he has shown an ability to play with efficiency and well at times. I hope he can develop into that player for us.

[OrlandoNed]

Evan currently has the 2nd highest APG of any SG over 6'7" in the NBA.

That's an oddly specific caveat. If you have to be that specific, I have to be a bit skeptical of its importance.

I don't think there is another way to sort on NBA.com, it lumps PGs in with SGs as "Guards". The height separates out the listed SGs that are actually playing at PGs.

Ok, I get you now. I thought you were doing some real statistical cherry-picking. Maybe try Basketball Reference to look up stats.

[MagicStarwipe]

It's the same story with all of you and him every season, it used to be he never passed to Oladipo. Then never passed to AG, now it's Isaac. Evan currently has the 2nd highest APG of any SG over 6'7" in the NBA. He has the 2nd best passing numbers on our team behind AG and the two of them are way above everyone else on the team as it is. If you have an issue with **** passers, have a look at JI, who is literally the worst passer on our team, not that I care, because he is plenty good in many other areas.

Because he does things like this far too often. This being one of the more egregious examples you can find. Unless you are a superstar you should not get away with it.

[Bergmaniac]

If you have an issue with **** passers, have a look at JI, who is literally the worst passer on our team, not that I care, because he is plenty good in many other areas.

You edited before I had a chance to see this but just to address briefly -- JI has an extremely efficient efg of .603 and a PER of 20.5 on the season which you can contrast with Evan's .517. If this was a competition to see who could be the best passer I think Evan would probably be better than JI.

"Probably", LOL. The hate for Fournier on this board is hilarious.

Yeah, he misses open teammates sometimes. Almost all players in this league who aren't top level playmakers do that. For a shooting guard his vision and passing are pretty good.

[PrimeThyme]

It's the same story with all of you and him every season, it used to be he never passed to Oladipo. Then never passed to AG, now it's Isaac. Evan currently has the 2nd highest APG of any SG over 6'7" in the NBA. He has the 2nd best passing numbers on our team behind AG and the two of them are way above everyone else on the team as it is. If you have an issue with **** passers, have a look at JI, who is literally the worst passer on our team, not that I care, because he is plenty good in many other areas.

Thats such an awful take. Isaacs assist numbers have more to do with his utilization then anything else, so thats not really what you can use to determine whether he is a good passer or not. People said the same thing about AG for years when I would argue his potential as a passer and possible playmaker and when they actually put the ball in his hands and asked him to be a playmaker for this team he proved he was more than capable. I think Isaac is a very cerebral offensive player and could be a more than capable passer for this team, he is just asked to either pass it to Fournier off a screen at the top of the key or shoot a 3.

Fournier's assist numbers have more to do with his usage than anything else. I know there are some secondary numbers that back up him up as a playmaker, but I still don't believe it is an ideal role for him. It's not a matter of him just not passing to a covered Isaac, there have been 2-3 times at least this year where he has driven it into the lane on 3 players and missed a shot when Isaac was clapping his hands without a player 5 feet near him at the 3pt line. He's always done that. He's either going to pass it to Vuc when they run their two-man game or he's going to get a contested shot up at the rim.

This isn't a matter of hating on Fournier either. Our roster construction and lack of players on this team that can create consistent offense for themselves is a big part of the reason why Fournier has played the role for this team that he has. That's why we need Fultz to develop. We've been looking for a player with his court vision and playmaking abilities this entire rebuild.

[j-ragg]

Isaac actually looked pretty improved early in the preseason with his passing when he had a little more usage. I think that’s part of his game that could grow. Just too many other months to feed.

[Xatticus]

It's the same story with all of you and him every season, it used to be he never passed to Oladipo. Then never passed to AG, now it's Isaac. Evan currently has the 2nd highest APG of any SG over 6'7" in the NBA. He has the 2nd best passing numbers on our team behind AG and the two of them are way above everyone else on the team as it is. If you have an issue with **** passers, have a look at JI, who is literally the worst passer on our team, not that I care, because he is plenty good in many other areas.

It's been a consistent complaint because it has been a consistent problem.

AST% doesn't really tell you how good of a passer someone is. You'd have to tease that information out by using the raw data and comparing that to how the offense is run. Good passes and assists aren't unrelated, but they aren't the same thing. AST% is a function of possession as much as anything else. AST% just estimates the percentage of a team's field goals assisted by that player while he is on the floor, but it is a very rudimentary approximation as it uses box score information, which is very limited. Possession is not distributed equally and so assist percentages aren't really comparable. This means that two identical assist percentages aren't really equivalent. AST%/TOV% or AST%/USG% tell you a lot more about how effective someone is at distributing the ball.

It's really evident if you watch the games that Fournier discriminates with his passing. For me, this is a disease that undermines the health of the offense. A healthy offense is one with good circulation (ball movement). For the individual, I can completely understand why Fournier plays the way he does. He knows which side of his bread is buttered. Danny Green is a much more valuable NBA player than Fournier, but Danny Green has never gotten paid $17M for a season.

[Bensational]

It's the same story with all of you and him every season, it used to be he never passed to Oladipo. Then never passed to AG, now it's Isaac. Evan currently has the 2nd highest APG of any SG over 6'7" in the NBA. He has the 2nd best passing numbers on our team behind AG and the two of them are way above everyone else on the team as it is. If you have an issue with **** passers, have a look at JI, who is literally the worst passer on our team, not that I care, because he is plenty good in many other areas.

In order for Isaac to become better at passing the ball, he needs to get the ball. Right now, the only time he gets the ball is when he's been left wide open (which makes it a shot he has to take), or when he takes it off the other team on the defensive end.

[ezzzp]

Evan currently has the 2nd highest APG of any SG over 6'7" in the NBA.

That's an oddly specific caveat. If you have to be that specific, I have to be a bit skeptical of its importance.

I don't think there is another way to sort on NBA.com, it lumps PGs in with SGs as "Guards". The height separates out the listed SGs that are actually playing at PGs.

AST% is a better measurement for creation. Plus looking at Secondary Assist + Potential Assists to see whose ball movement is creating looks and to give some clarity to wether teammates are just missing shots. You can also look at Ast Points created to see who is creating better point volume.

I would also use these filters:

• use >6'4" as that would eliminate most PG's but not filter out many SG's who aren't as long as Fournier.

• starters only as that ensures that player is facing starter level competition instead of lower quality bench units

• >3 games played and >20mpg to minimize some of the distortion from such a small sample.

When you do that and manually remove the big PG's, you get a better picture of where he is at in relation to other SG's at creation:

1 J Harden (38.5 AST% / 3 Sec Ast / 70 Pot Ast / 91 Ast Pts created)
2 L Doncic (35.5 AST% / 4 Sec Ast / 67 Pot Ast / 76 Ast Pts created)
3 D Russell (33.3 AST% / 2 Sec Ast / 38 Pot Ast / 59 Ast Pts created)
4 D Booker (26.8 AST% / 3 Sec Ast / 47 Pot Ast / 63 Ast Pts created)
5 Z LaVine (22.2 AST% / 0 Sec Ast / 52 Pot Ast / 54 Ast Pts created)
6 C LeVert (18.2 AST% / 0 Sec Ast / 26 Pot Ast / 36 Ast Pts created)
7 E Fournier (18.0 AST% / 4 Sec Ast / 28 Pot Ast / 25 Ast Pts created)

Only those with an obviously biased agenda would discredit AST% as a measure of creation.

[OrlandoNed]

That's an oddly specific caveat. If you have to be that specific, I have to be a bit skeptical of its importance.

I don't think there is another way to sort on NBA.com, it lumps PGs in with SGs as "Guards". The height separates out the listed SGs that are actually playing at PGs.

AST% is a better measurement for creation. Plus looking at Secondary Assist + Potential Assists to see whose ball movement is creating looks and to give some clarity to wether teammates are just missing shots. You can also look at Ast Points created to see who is creating better point volume.

I would also use these filters:

• use >6'4" as that would eliminate most PG's but not filter out many SG's who aren't as long as Fournier.

• starters only as that ensures that player is facing starter level competition instead of lower quality bench units

• >3 games played and >20mpg to minimize some of the distortion from such a small sample.

When you do that and manually remove the big PG's, you get a better picture of where he is at in relation to other SG's at creation:

1 J Harden (38.5 AST% / 3 Sec Ast / 70 Pot Ast / 91 Ast Pts created)
2 L Doncic (35.5 AST% / 4 Sec Ast / 67 Pot Ast / 76 Ast Pts created)
3 D Russell (33.3 AST% / 2 Sec Ast / 38 Pot Ast / 59 Ast Pts created)
4 D Booker (26.8 AST% / 3 Sec Ast / 47 Pot Ast / 63 Ast Pts created)
5 Z LaVine (22.2 AST% / 0 Sec Ast / 52 Pot Ast / 54 Ast Pts created)
6 C LeVert (18.2 AST% / 0 Sec Ast / 26 Pot Ast / 36 Ast Pts created)
7 E Fournier (18.0 AST% / 4 Sec Ast / 28 Pot Ast / 25 Ast Pts created)

Only those with an obviously biased agenda would discredit AST% as a measure of creation.

It's dumb how height is treated like an important filter when you are just looking at assist statistics. Look at LeBron, Ben Simmons, Giannis and Jokic: they are all primary ball handlers for their teams that measure 6'9, 6'10, 6'11 and 7'0 but only Simmons is labeled as a "PG" while the other 3 are labeled as SF, PF and C.

[ezzzp]

I don't think there is another way to sort on NBA.com, it lumps PGs in with SGs as "Guards". The height separates out the listed SGs that are actually playing at PGs.

AST% is a better measurement for creation. Plus looking at Secondary Assist + Potential Assists to see whose ball movement is creating looks and to give some clarity to wether teammates are just missing shots. You can also look at Ast Points created to see who is creating better point volume.

I would also use these filters:

• use >6'4" as that would eliminate most PG's but not filter out many SG's who aren't as long as Fournier.

• starters only as that ensures that player is facing starter level competition instead of lower quality bench units

• >3 games played and >20mpg to minimize some of the distortion from such a small sample.

When you do that and manually remove the big PG's, you get a better picture of where he is at in relation to other SG's at creation:

1 J Harden (38.5 AST% / 3 Sec Ast / 70 Pot Ast / 91 Ast Pts created)
2 L Doncic (35.5 AST% / 4 Sec Ast / 67 Pot Ast / 76 Ast Pts created)
3 D Russell (33.3 AST% / 2 Sec Ast / 38 Pot Ast / 59 Ast Pts created)
4 D Booker (26.8 AST% / 3 Sec Ast / 47 Pot Ast / 63 Ast Pts created)
5 Z LaVine (22.2 AST% / 0 Sec Ast / 52 Pot Ast / 54 Ast Pts created)
6 C LeVert (18.2 AST% / 0 Sec Ast / 26 Pot Ast / 36 Ast Pts created)
7 E Fournier (18.0 AST% / 4 Sec Ast / 28 Pot Ast / 25 Ast Pts created)

Only those with an obviously biased agenda would discredit AST% as a measure of creation.

It's dumb how height is treated like an important filter when you are just looking at assist statistics. Look at LeBron, Ben Simmons, Giannis and Jokic: they are all primary ball handlers for their teams that measure 6'9, 6'10, 6'11 and 7'0 but only Simmons is labeled as a "PG" while the other 3 are labeled as SF, PF and C.

I think the point he was making was how Fournier ranked vs SG's, not how he ranks vs the primary creators in the NBA.

Fournier is (and was last year) the Magic's secondary creator. That and 3-D are the role most SG's play except for those elite guys who are primary creator wings...those dudes are almost always max $ players.

Fournier isn't anywhere near that level, he's a solid starter level secondary creator, but not the type of guy who'll put up +20 AST%.

Clifford can't run 1/5 PnR's every play, he has to mix it up with 2-3/5 PnR's.

[basketballRob]

It's the same story with all of you and him every season, it used to be he never passed to Oladipo. Then never passed to AG, now it's Isaac. Evan currently has the 2nd highest APG of any SG over 6'7" in the NBA. He has the 2nd best passing numbers on our team behind AG and the two of them are way above everyone else on the team as it is. If you have an issue with **** passers, have a look at JI, who is literally the worst passer on our team, not that I care, because he is plenty good in many other areas.

Because he does things like this far too often. This being one of the more egregious examples you can find. Unless you are a superstar you should not get away with it.

Fournier reminds me of Isaiah Rider. I remember he always did that prima donna crap and McHale called him out and said, you aren't even the best player on this team, that kid Garnett is. Ironically Rider's stats started to drop off when he was around 26 and he was out of the league by the time he was 30.

[pepe1991]

Ah here we go, conspiracy theories without any merrit to it or reason why, other than " i like him and i don't like him so i have to find connectons ".

[basketballRob]

Ah here we go, conspiracy theories without any merrit to it or reason why, other than " i like him and i don't like him so i have to find connectons ".

You were the one calling Isaac basically a bust last season.

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[SOUL]

I mean, it's not hard to provide context into numbers.

Evan is not a bad passer in the sense that he can't pass or doesn't pass, it's that he's a selective passer (as Starwipe provided) -- and that's not some egregious example that happens once a game. Since he does have the ball in his hands more often than other players, he is prone to being bullish and looking off open players to feed Vuc. AG sometimes is the same way where he'll just take it himself instead of swinging it, although he doesn't do it quite as much.

Not sure about interjecting Isaac into the discussion and calling him the worst passer. I've always seen him hit the open man. If that open man swings it to another player who has a better shot, that doesn't mean Isaac is a bad passer because he didn't get an assist. Come on. Context, people. He's not the best creator with the ball in his hands, but the ball doesn't stick with him either.

Now, Aminu or Ross...

[Optimus_Steel]

Way too much gloom and doom going on in here. The team's defense has been exceptional and looks better than last year. We are 2-2 and November starts tomorrow. This team is going to be alright.