Other than 3pt shooting, what does DJ do better than Fultz today?

[jezzerinho]

While I 100% agree, It just feels like playing with that starting unit caps his upside. He is not a catch and shoot player. How many times tonight did we see him just stand at the 3pt line while Evan/Vuc played their two-man game or we went down to Vuc in the post when he was playing with the starters.

He just needs the ball in his hands. If we ran that two-man game with him and Vuc like we did with DJ/Vuc down the stretch tonight, it could work but he needs the ball in his hands initiating the offense or its pointless to start him.

I think this is a very astute point. I'd add to it by saying Clifford likely knows that to break into the starting lineup and have it play to his strengths, Fultz needs time to show Vooch, Fournier and AG that he's starter material. They need proof that playing the offense through Markelle is good for them. That'll happen with Markelle running the show for the bench and on limited minutes with the starters. I can see Fultz starting by Xmas. I firmly believe Clifford loves him and is working hard to get the best put of him.

[SOUL]

While I 100% agree, It just feels like playing with that starting unit caps his upside. He is not a catch and shoot player. How many times tonight did we see him just stand at the 3pt line while Evan/Vuc played their two-man game or we went down to Vuc in the post when he was playing with the starters.

He just needs the ball in his hands. If we ran that two-man game with him and Vuc like we did with DJ/Vuc down the stretch tonight, it could work but he needs the ball in his hands initiating the offense or its pointless to start him.

I think this is a very astute point. I'd add to it by saying Clifford likely knows that to break into the starting lineup and have it play to his strengths, Fultz needs time to show Vooch, Fournier and AG that he's starter material. They need proof that playing the offense through Markelle is good for them. That'll happen with Markelle running the show for the bench and on limited minutes with the starters. I can see Fultz starting by Xmas. I firmly believe Clifford loves him and is working hard to get the best put of him.

What if they do that because DJ isn't necessarily great at getting anybody involved but Vuc in pick and rolls?

I understand that it's probably a scenario where Fultz would not really be the playmaker everybody wants in that lineup, but part of why we get off to these slow starts with DJ is because we're completely fine running the very, very, very sub-par offense we have for some reason. Things in general will change because somebody shakes it up and does something about it at some point, not by being scared of trying something new.

I don't think there is much risk in rocking the boat of a bottom 5 offense no matter how quickly it happens or who the opposition is, as long as Fultz is getting reps in practice with starters semi-often.

[drsd]

"to start the season"... you need a bigger sample size before you start hating on players

To add: for Orlando to make round-2 of the playoffs, Orlando needs bench scoring fro Ross. He is a critical player for this team and he must do well.

[jezzerinho]

While I 100% agree, It just feels like playing with that starting unit caps his upside. He is not a catch and shoot player. How many times tonight did we see him just stand at the 3pt line while Evan/Vuc played their two-man game or we went down to Vuc in the post when he was playing with the starters.

He just needs the ball in his hands. If we ran that two-man game with him and Vuc like we did with DJ/Vuc down the stretch tonight, it could work but he needs the ball in his hands initiating the offense or its pointless to start him.

I think this is a very astute point. I'd add to it by saying Clifford likely knows that to break into the starting lineup and have it play to his strengths, Fultz needs time to show Vooch, Fournier and AG that he's starter material. They need proof that playing the offense through Markelle is good for them. That'll happen with Markelle running the show for the bench and on limited minutes with the starters. I can see Fultz starting by Xmas. I firmly believe Clifford loves him and is working hard to get the best put of him.

What if they do that because DJ isn't necessarily great at getting anybody involved but Vuc in pick and rolls?

I understand that it's probably a scenario where Fultz would not really be the playmaker everybody wants in that lineup, but part of why we get off to these slow starts with DJ is because we're completely fine running the very, very, very sub-par offense we have for some reason. Things in general will change because somebody shakes it up and does something about it at some point, not by being scared of trying something new.

I don't think there is much risk in rocking the boat of a bottom 5 offense no matter how quickly it happens or who the opposition is, as long as Fultz is getting reps in practice with starters semi-often.

Team chemistry is so important to Clifford and especially the FO that nobody is going to risk a backlash. The transition from DJ to Fultz (assuming it happens - and I believe it will) is going to be done at the right pace and without ruffling any more feathers than it has to.

To imagine it's going to be a revolution is totally out of whack with how this Magic does things.

[MagicStarwipe]

I think this is a very astute point. I'd add to it by saying Clifford likely knows that to break into the starting lineup and have it play to his strengths, Fultz needs time to show Vooch, Fournier and AG that he's starter material. They need proof that playing the offense through Markelle is good for them. That'll happen with Markelle running the show for the bench and on limited minutes with the starters. I can see Fultz starting by Xmas. I firmly believe Clifford loves him and is working hard to get the best put of him.

What if they do that because DJ isn't necessarily great at getting anybody involved but Vuc in pick and rolls?

I understand that it's probably a scenario where Fultz would not really be the playmaker everybody wants in that lineup, but part of why we get off to these slow starts with DJ is because we're completely fine running the very, very, very sub-par offense we have for some reason. Things in general will change because somebody shakes it up and does something about it at some point, not by being scared of trying something new.

I don't think there is much risk in rocking the boat of a bottom 5 offense no matter how quickly it happens or who the opposition is, as long as Fultz is getting reps in practice with starters semi-often.

Team chemistry is so important to Clifford and especially the FO that nobody is going to risk a backlash. The transition from DJ to Fultz (assuming it happens - and I believe it will) is going to be done at the right pace and without ruffling any more feathers than it has to.

To imagine it's going to be a revolution is totally out of whack with how this Magic does things.

I understand where you are coming from, but to me it's pretty crazy that anybody should have ruffled feathers about a career backup PG going back to his rightful role on the team.

[ezzzp]

While I 100% agree, It just feels like playing with that starting unit caps his upside. He is not a catch and shoot player. How many times tonight did we see him just stand at the 3pt line while Evan/Vuc played their two-man game or we went down to Vuc in the post when he was playing with the starters.

He just needs the ball in his hands. If we ran that two-man game with him and Vuc like we did with DJ/Vuc down the stretch tonight, it could work but he needs the ball in his hands initiating the offense or its pointless to start him.

I get what you mean, but good offenses have two players that run the PnR and drive...the primary and secondary creators. Eventually, I think Fultz and Fournier will complement each other well.

Right now Clifford is gradually overlapping Fultz with the starters. I think Fultz will gradually begin to get more confident and aggressive and in turn Clifford will begin trusting him more...after all its only been 4 games. How effective Fultz scores will dictate how much Clifford proportions the offense to him and when he transitions to Markelle as the starter.

Fournier is not even remotely close to a creative passer as Fultz is and he's not able to get into the lane with the ease Fultz does, but he is nonetheless still pretty effective at it. This season he has been really good as the PnR ball handler and as a Driver:



*PTS% is Points Per Drive ex. Fournier scores 0.825 (rounded up 0.83) points per drive possession

Once Fultz becomes more effective, I think that Fournier will work really nicely with a ball-dominant Fultz. Keeping defenses off of him with his shooting and as a threat of a secondary driver that can also score and create. Having a 1-2/5 PnR threat with Vuc in my opinion could be pretty good for everyone.

The potential down the road issue is that it will severely cut into AG's touches as a ball handler. AG has never been good at it, and this year has been worse than ever, so I'm not concerned with that, but it is a potential chemistry issue.

[Driguez]

While I 100% agree, It just feels like playing with that starting unit caps his upside. He is not a catch and shoot player. How many times tonight did we see him just stand at the 3pt line while Evan/Vuc played their two-man game or we went down to Vuc in the post when he was playing with the starters.

He just needs the ball in his hands. If we ran that two-man game with him and Vuc like we did with DJ/Vuc down the stretch tonight, it could work but he needs the ball in his hands initiating the offense or its pointless to start him.

I get what you mean, but good offenses have two players that run the PnR and drive...the primary and secondary creators. Eventually, I think Fultz and Fournier will complement each other well.

Right now Clifford is gradually overlapping Fultz with the starters. I think Fultz will gradually begin to get more confident and aggressive and in turn Clifford will begin trusting him more...after all its only been 4 games. How effective Fultz scores will dictate how much Clifford proportions the offense to him and when he transitions to Markelle as the starter.

Fournier is not even remotely close to a creative passer as Fultz is and he's not able to get into the lane with the ease Fultz does, but he is nonetheless still pretty effective at it. This season he has been really good as the PnR ball handler and as a Driver:



*PTS% is Points Per Drive ex. Fournier scores 0.825 (rounded up 0.83) points per drive possession

Once Fultz becomes more effective, I think that Fournier will work really nicely with a ball-dominant Fultz. Keeping defenses off of him with his shooting and as a threat of a secondary driver that can also score and create. Having a 1-2/5 PnR threat with Vuc in my opinion could be pretty good for everyone.

The potential down the road issue is that it will severely cut into AG's touches as a ball handler. AG has never been good at it, and this year has been worse than ever, so I'm not concerned with that, but it is a potential chemistry issue.

[Dubious Kitty]

He’s better at being trash

[zaymon]

While I 100% agree, It just feels like playing with that starting unit caps his upside. He is not a catch and shoot player. How many times tonight did we see him just stand at the 3pt line while Evan/Vuc played their two-man game or we went down to Vuc in the post when he was playing with the starters.

He just needs the ball in his hands. If we ran that two-man game with him and Vuc like we did with DJ/Vuc down the stretch tonight, it could work but he needs the ball in his hands initiating the offense or its pointless to start him.

I get what you mean, but good offenses have two players that run the PnR and drive...the primary and secondary creators. Eventually, I think Fultz and Fournier will complement each other well.

Right now Clifford is gradually overlapping Fultz with the starters. I think Fultz will gradually begin to get more confident and aggressive and in turn Clifford will begin trusting him more...after all its only been 4 games. How effective Fultz scores will dictate how much Clifford proportions the offense to him and when he transitions to Markelle as the starter.

Fournier is not even remotely close to a creative passer as Fultz is and he's not able to get into the lane with the ease Fultz does, but he is nonetheless still pretty effective at it. This season he has been really good as the PnR ball handler and as a Driver:



*PTS% is Points Per Drive ex. Fournier scores 0.825 (rounded up 0.83) points per drive possession

Once Fultz becomes more effective, I think that Fournier will work really nicely with a ball-dominant Fultz. Keeping defenses off of him with his shooting and as a threat of a secondary driver that can also score and create. Having a 1-2/5 PnR threat with Vuc in my opinion could be pretty good for everyone.

The potential down the road issue is that it will severely cut into AG's touches as a ball handler. AG has never been good at it, and this year has been worse than ever, so I'm not concerned with that, but it is a potential chemistry issue.

It all makes sense and groundwork for it already had been laid. Isaac worked on his above the break threes which makes room for Fournier in the corner. Isaac takes bigger player from weak side help position and Fournier waits for easy shot or drive without the fear of teams packing the paint too much. Its different from last year becouse Isaac could only shot from the corner making Fournier drives much more difficult ( and as a primary ball handler without Fultz). I am optimistic about our offense going forward and i like Evans potential as a number 2/3 option. How many 6'7 guards have Fournier agility and craftiness ? If his shot is back i want him in a magic uniform for a long time ( with a discount). We all love Ross but Fournier is a more complete basketball player. If Fultz clicks with Fournier it will be fun to watch.

[basketballRob]

...does Isaac play SG? that's reality

Huh? You quoted a guy talking about that the core of Fultz/JI maybe Bamba being more promising.

Then you went on to list how we always talked about other players having more potential and went on to name Payton, Mario, Gordon, and Harris.....none of those guys are shooting guards either...


Anyways. The post was about how potential is useless and coaches should rely on veterans like Vuc and Fournier. Isaac, who the original post was about(with Fultz) is already a better player than Fournier. No potential talk here.

No he isn't.

I'm a huge fan of Fultz and Isaac. You can look through my comment history and see that I've been one of their biggest supporters on this forum. Since early last season I've been saying that Isaac was my favorite prospect since Oladipo.

JI is a beast defensively, but if he can't elevate his offensive game to another level once teams stop leaving him alone he'll be just another specialist role player.

A handful of decent offensive games (playing off-of 4 guys no less) in two years does not suddenly make him better than a proven secondary creator. JI has incredible defensive impact, but there is a long list of guys like Tony Allen, Patrick Beverley etc who are awesome to have on your team, but they aren't "the guy" or even "the guy next to the guy" and so forth until you get to 4th-7th option "role-player" tier.

So when you say that JI is already better than Fournier, you are talking about potential, not actual. That's reality. JI probably will be at a certain point, hopefully as soon as this season, but again that's purely hypothetical.

The thing that many fans don't understand about player development is that team floor is what matters most to successful quality player development. A low floor lowers the ceiling.

Fournier, Ross, DJ, Aminu and Vucevic are the basic foundation that keeps the Magic floor at a competitive level. They are what creates a good context for the young guys to develop in until they hit their prime ascent (starting around 23-24) and can take over. The peak prime vets are not the "ceiling" of the team, they are the "floor" - keeping it high to give the best possible context for the "ceiling" of the team the chance to reach its highest peak once those young players get to their prime ascent.

I think JI is already the best player on the team.

Not sure anyone can look at the stats and say anyone else is better than him. Vuc and Fournier should start deferring to him more.

Isaac has more god given tools than any other player on the team besides Fultz and Bamba. He'll be able to match up better with these super athletes from other teams. I think we see already players like Fournier and Vuc can be shutout when they go up against other elite players.

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[basketballRob]

I think Isaac's impact on both end of the floor is greater.

But yeah, right now, Fournier is up there in value due to our lack of scorers

I agree with you that Isaac is better than Fournier.

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[ezzzp]

Huh? You quoted a guy talking about that the core of Fultz/JI maybe Bamba being more promising.

Then you went on to list how we always talked about other players having more potential and went on to name Payton, Mario, Gordon, and Harris.....none of those guys are shooting guards either...


Anyways. The post was about how potential is useless and coaches should rely on veterans like Vuc and Fournier. Isaac, who the original post was about(with Fultz) is already a better player than Fournier. No potential talk here.

No he isn't.

I'm a huge fan of Fultz and Isaac. You can look through my comment history and see that I've been one of their biggest supporters on this forum. Since early last season I've been saying that Isaac was my favorite prospect since Oladipo.

JI is a beast defensively, but if he can't elevate his offensive game to another level once teams stop leaving him alone he'll be just another specialist role player.

A handful of decent offensive games (playing off-of 4 guys no less) in two years does not suddenly make him better than a proven secondary creator. JI has incredible defensive impact, but there is a long list of guys like Tony Allen, Patrick Beverley etc who are awesome to have on your team, but they aren't "the guy" or even "the guy next to the guy" and so forth until you get to 4th-7th option "role-player" tier.

So when you say that JI is already better than Fournier, you are talking about potential, not actual. That's reality. JI probably will be at a certain point, hopefully as soon as this season, but again that's purely hypothetical.

The thing that many fans don't understand about player development is that team floor is what matters most to successful quality player development. A low floor lowers the ceiling.

Fournier, Ross, DJ, Aminu and Vucevic are the basic foundation that keeps the Magic floor at a competitive level. They are what creates a good context for the young guys to develop in until they hit their prime ascent (starting around 23-24) and can take over. The peak prime vets are not the "ceiling" of the team, they are the "floor" - keeping it high to give the best possible context for the "ceiling" of the team the chance to reach its highest peak once those young players get to their prime ascent.

I think JI is already the best player on the team.

Not sure anyone can look at the stats and say anyone else is better than him. Vuc and Fournier should start deferring to him more.

Isaac has more god given tools than any other player on the team besides Fultz and Bamba. He'll be able to match up better with these super athletes from other teams. I think we see already players like Fournier and Vuc can be shutout when they go up against other elite players.

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Of course you do, you've also stated this week that Bamba was the Magic's defensive anchor.

Potential isn't actual...and having the tools doesn't mean jack if he doesn't develop an offensive balance to keep him out of the defensive specialist tier. The hope is that one day he will, but that is pure speculation, it is not actual.

FYI, Isaac was completely shut down by Toronto also...all they had to do was leave him totally alone, as wide open as you can get and let him shoot 11-40 (.250 FG%) including 4-20 from 3PT range. Meanwhile they focused their elite defense on specifically stopping the DJ and Fournier/ Vucevic PnR attack and Ross. Siakam also had his way with Isaac on the other end.

[thelead]

Fultz games:
Game 1: 23 min
Game 2: 24 min
Game 3: 27 min
Game 4: 20 min
Game 5: 19 min

Also:
Game 1: 6-12
Game 2: 4-11
Game 3: 6-11
Game 4: 3-6
Game 5: 2-6

Coach... you're going the wrong way...