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Regular Season Game 13: Washington Wizards (3-7) at Orlando Magic (5-7) - 6pm ET

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Re: Regular Season Game 13: Washington Wizards (3-7) at Orlando Magic (5-7) - 6pm ET 

Post#261 » by rcklsscognition » Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:10 pm

Clifford said something along the lines of, just wait for 25 games and we'll see more of Fultz. I'm curious, first, if he meant about the minutes restrictions. Secondly, was it 25 games more from now, or 25 games into the season?
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Re: Regular Season Game 13: Washington Wizards (3-7) at Orlando Magic (5-7) - 6pm ET 

Post#262 » by OrlandO » Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:18 pm

rcklsscognition wrote:Clifford said something along the lines of, just wait for 25 games and we'll see more of Fultz. I'm curious, first, if he meant about the minutes restrictions. Secondly, was it 25 games more from now, or 25 games into the season?

25 games from now we play Washington again :lol:

But I'm guessing he means 25 games into the season... that's usually when teams are all settled and it's probably a good sample size to see how his shoulder reacts to the nba schedule before increasing his usage for the next phase of testing. Setting game 38 as a timetable sounds too random...
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Re: Regular Season Game 13: Washington Wizards (3-7) at Orlando Magic (5-7) - 6pm ET 

Post#263 » by pepe1991 » Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:30 pm

swarlesbarkley wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:2018 Cavs were second worst defense in nba and played nba finals...

There is really, in depth analysis on questions "does defense win championship" and answer is simple. No. Being best team does.

Their conclusion of topic is
Coaches are still going to urge their players to lock down on the less-glamorous end. Crowds are still going to yell and scream "DE-FENSE" whenever their team needs a big stop. Players are still going to pride themselves on preventing buckets in crucial situations.

After all, defense does win championships.

The only problem with the popular saying is that offense does too.


Admittedly, I don't know where this quote is coming from but if that's the conclusion from the research and your conclusion from that research is "answer is simple: no" (to defense winning championships) I think you're wrong. That quote is saying offense wins TOO, as in, offense wins championships AND defense wins championships. Even the example you used (2018 Cavs) kinda disproved your point - they got blown out in the finals.


Nobody said defense is not important, but we have people here pretending that offense isn't as important if not more imporant.

As for offensive rating , compared top defensive rating and championships.

Best defense in last 5 years
2018-19 Bucks- ECF loss
2017-18 Jazz second round exit
16-17 Spurs- second round exit
15-16 Spurs- second round exit
14-15 Pacers- ecf loss

so to sum it up, best defensive team in last 5 years had:
0 championships
0 finals
2 CF
3 second round exits

Offense:

2018-19 Warriors- finals L
17-18 Rockets- WCF L
16-17 Warriors - champions
15-16 Warriors- Finals L
14-15 Clippers -second round L

Sum:
1 championship
1 finals L
2 WCF
1 second round exit

Concusion : best offense against best defense stacks just like everybody can imagine in sport where teams score 100-115 of anything. It's always in favor of team that can do it at elite level , opposite of team that can prevent it from happening at elite level.
I don't know why this is even a thing. Because Jordan said defense wins championship 28 years ago and media took it as slogan, i guess. In same period " live by 3 die by 3 " was also made, and now it's just laughable myth. There was period of time in last 20 years where it appeared to look like defense is more important. It was around 1998-2002, when teams just decided to walk ball half court, play bunch of iso mid range shots, shoot no threes and have 1 overrated superstar per team jacking 30 shots a game.
in NBA finals in 1999, Knicks and Spurs engaged in one of the ugliest nba finals probably since 50s,as both teams were just milking clock and taking laughable shots. Ofc defense looked so superior, in reality teams averaged 65 shots a game, took 10-15 threes a game and scored 1/3 of all points from FT line.

"elite defense" or just idiotic offense? You decide.
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Re: Regular Season Game 13: Washington Wizards (3-7) at Orlando Magic (5-7) - 6pm ET 

Post#264 » by PrimeThyme » Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:42 pm

GelbeWand09 wrote:About our Mo. I said some posts before, i hope we see JI as backup C over that road heavy schedule. I fear Mo gonna cost us 1-2 games, if he plays like this & Birch looked like trash too so far (I think he will look better with constant playtime).
Btw: How he looked live in the arena? Body language & co? And congrats your attendance losing streak ended :lol:

Thanks man, when Dj/MCW went down with injuries and then they almost came back at the end and won I was going to vow to never go to another game again :lol:

As far as Mo's body language, it was about what you see on tv. He doesn't show much emotion and looks mostly disinterested at all times. I think he has lost close to all confidence at this point as well. We sat close to our bench so I kind of kept an eye on him the whole game. There was a play in the second quarter where Mo didn't put a body on Bertans who got an offensive rebound and kicked it out to Wagner for a 3, and Cliff immediately took a time out and ripped into Bamba during the huddle.

I thought for sure Cliff was going to pull him immediately from the game after that but he kept him in there until the next two possessions where he missed two-point blanks shots around the rim and then didn't box out Wagner the next possession and got pulled after that. He truthfully looked pretty defeated after that sequence.

I would love to see backup C minutes for Isaac, but it feels like we are a year or two away from seeing that consistently. When Bamba gets pulled from this rotation I'm expecting Birch to get the first crack at backup C minutes.
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Re: Regular Season Game 13: Washington Wizards (3-7) at Orlando Magic (5-7) - 6pm ET 

Post#265 » by swarlesbarkley » Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:46 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
swarlesbarkley wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:2018 Cavs were second worst defense in nba and played nba finals...

There is really, in depth analysis on questions "does defense win championship" and answer is simple. No. Being best team does.

Their conclusion of topic is


Admittedly, I don't know where this quote is coming from but if that's the conclusion from the research and your conclusion from that research is "answer is simple: no" (to defense winning championships) I think you're wrong. That quote is saying offense wins TOO, as in, offense wins championships AND defense wins championships. Even the example you used (2018 Cavs) kinda disproved your point - they got blown out in the finals.


Nobody said defense is not important, but we have people here pretending that offense isn't as important if not more imporant.

As for offensive rating , compared top defensive rating and championships.

Best defense in last 5 years
2018-19 Bucks- ECF loss
2017-18 Jazz second round exit
16-17 Spurs- second round exit
15-16 Spurs- second round exit
14-15 Pacers- ecf loss

so to sum it up, best defensive team in last 5 years had:
0 championships
0 finals
2 CF
3 second round exits

Offense:

2018-19 Warriors- finals L
17-18 Rockets- WCF L
16-17 Warriors - champions
15-16 Warriors- Finals L
14-15 Clippers -second round L

Sum:
1 championship
1 finals L
2 WCF
1 second round exit

Concusion : best offense against best defense stacks just like everybody can imagine in sport where teams score 100-115 of anything. It's always in favor of team that can do it at elite level , opposite of team that can prevent it from happening at elite level.
I don't know why this is even a thing. Because Jordan said defense wins championship 28 years ago and media took it as slogan, i guess. In same period " live by 3 die by 3 " was also made, and now it's just laughable myth. There was period of time in last 20 years where it appeared to look like defense is more important. It was around 1998-2002, when teams just decided to walk ball half court, play bunch of iso mid range shots, shoot no threes and have 1 overrated superstar per team jacking 30 shots a game.
in NBA finals in 1999, Knicks and Spurs engaged in one of the ugliest nba finals probably since 50s,as both teams were just milking clock and taking laughable shots. Ofc defense looked so superior, in reality teams averaged 65 shots a game, took 10-15 threes a game and scored 1/3 of all points from FT line.

"elite defense" or just idiotic offense? You decide.


Appreciate the in depth analysis. I agree in general that elite offense beats elite defense (it does in most sports). I was simply pointing out that your initial statement of 'the simple answer is no, defense does not win championships' was not what the quote you provided said nor did the example you gave.
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Re: Regular Season Game 13: Washington Wizards (3-7) at Orlando Magic (5-7) - 6pm ET 

Post#266 » by MagicFan101 » Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:08 pm

rcklsscognition wrote:Clifford said something along the lines of, just wait for 25 games and we'll see more of Fultz. I'm curious, first, if he meant about the minutes restrictions. Secondly, was it 25 games more from now, or 25 games into the season?



Unless it is a fast break off a turnover, we really do a lot of letting Fultz walk the ball up, hand it to Evan / AG and go stand in the corner.

Surely that isn’t what practices look like. I suspect he is pointing towards taking the training wheels off a bit more.
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Re: Regular Season Game 13: Washington Wizards (3-7) at Orlando Magic (5-7) - 6pm ET 

Post#267 » by GelbeWand09 » Mon Nov 18, 2019 5:48 pm

PrimeThyme wrote:
GelbeWand09 wrote:About our Mo. I said some posts before, i hope we see JI as backup C over that road heavy schedule. I fear Mo gonna cost us 1-2 games, if he plays like this & Birch looked like trash too so far (I think he will look better with constant playtime).
Btw: How he looked live in the arena? Body language & co? And congrats your attendance losing streak ended :lol:

Thanks man, when Dj/MCW went down with injuries and then they almost came back at the end and won I was going to vow to never go to another game again :lol:

As far as Mo's body language, it was about what you see on tv. He doesn't show much emotion and looks mostly disinterested at all times. I think he has lost close to all confidence at this point as well. We sat close to our bench so I kind of kept an eye on him the whole game. There was a play in the second quarter where Mo didn't put a body on Bertans who got an offensive rebound and kicked it out to Wagner for a 3, and Cliff immediately took a time out and ripped into Bamba during the huddle.

I thought for sure Cliff was going to pull him immediately from the game after that but he kept him in there until the next two possessions where he missed two-point blanks shots around the rim and then didn't box out Wagner the next possession and got pulled after that. He truthfully looked pretty defeated after that sequence.

I would love to see backup C minutes for Isaac, but it feels like we are a year or two away from seeing that consistently. When Bamba gets pulled from this rotation I'm expecting Birch to get the first crack at backup C minutes.


Great seats, i'm jealous :lol:

Doesnt sound good about Mo. I can understand, that he got trouble finishing with contact, because of his still underdeveloped body, but he is missing point blank shots now regularly & looks like he plays in slow motion.
I wonder what to do. If its better to take him out & let him train & talk with the assistens for 2-3 weeks, or g-leaque or continue playing him & hope it gets better over the season.
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Re: Regular Season Game 13: Washington Wizards (3-7) at Orlando Magic (5-7) - 6pm ET 

Post#268 » by basketballRob » Mon Nov 18, 2019 5:56 pm

Vuc tipped in both of Fultz misses, one was waived off for basket interference.

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Re: Regular Season Game 13: Washington Wizards (3-7) at Orlando Magic (5-7) - 6pm ET 

Post#269 » by ezzzp » Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:21 pm

Knightro wrote:
basketballRob wrote:Just curious how many teams that weren't top 10 defensive teams ever won a championship?


2001 Lakers were 21st in DRTG in the regular season, but pretty famously flipped the switch once the playoffs started and ended up going 15-1 en route to the NBA title.

2018 Warriors were 11th in DRTG.


Having a quality defensive culture matters; it is usually the backbone of a good offense and is vital to keeping a sustainable balance.

I've posted this in the past, but here are some relevant numbers for the past decade:

• In the past decade of NBA Conference Finals:
28 teams have had Top 10 Offenses
28 teams have had Top 10 Defenses
18 teams had Top 10 Both


• In the past decade of NBA Conference Semi-Finals (2nd Round):
51 teams have had Top 10 Offenses
48 teams have had Top 10 Defenses
25 teams had Top 10 Both


---

Even if we narrow the sample to cherry pick the pace and space of the past 6 seasons, there is still very little difference:

• In the NBA Conference Finals:
20 teams have had Top 10 Offenses
16 teams have had Top 10 Defenses
12 teams have had Top 10 Both


• In the NBA Conference Semi-Finals (2nd Round):
32 teams had Top 10 Offenses
27 teams had Top 10 Defenses
16 teams had Top 10 Both


---

Here are the year by year details:

Spoiler:
• 2009-10
Conference Finals
Top 10 Offenses: 2
Top 10 Defenses: 3
Top 10 Both: 1
2nd Round
Top 10 Offenses: 6
Top 10 Defenses: 6
Top 10 Both: 4

LA Lakers (Off Rk: 11 / Def Rk: 3)
Boston (Off Rk: 15 / Def Rk: 5)
Orlando (Off Rk: 4 / Def Rk: 4)
Phoenix (Off Rk: 1 / Def Rk: 24)
Cleveland (Off Rk: 5 / Def Rk: 8)
Atlanta (Off Rk: 2 / Def Rk: 14)
Utah (Off Rk: 7 / Def Rk: 10)
San Antonio (Off Rk: 9 / Def Rk: 9)

• 2010-11
Conference Finals
Top 10 Offenses: 2
Top 10 Defenses: 2
Top 10 Both: 1
2nd Round
Top 10 Offenses: 3
Top 10 Defenses: 4
Top 10 Both: 2

Dallas (Off Rk: 21 / Def Rk: 14)
Miami (Off Rk: 2 / Def Rk: 5)
Chicago (Off Rk: 12 / Def Rk: 1)
Oklahoma City (Off Rk: 6 / Def Rk: 15)
Atlanta (Off Rk: 21 / Def Rk: 14)
Boston (Off Rk: 17 / Def Rk: 2)
LA Lakers (Off Rk: 7 / Def Rk: 6)
Memphis (Off Rk: 15 / Def Rk: 11)

• 2011-12
Conference Finals
Top 10 Offenses: 3
Top 10 Defenses: 3
Top 10 Both: 2
2nd Round
Top 10 Offenses: 6
Top 10 Defenses: 5
Top 10 Both: 3

Miami (Off Rk: 6 / Def Rk: 4)
Oklahoma City (Off Rk: 2 / Def Rk: 9)
Boston (Off Rk: 24 / Def Rk: 2)
San Antonio (Off Rk: 1 / Def Rk: 11)
Philadelphia (Off Rk: 21 / Def Rk: 3)
Indiana (Off Rk: 8 / Def Rk: 10)
LA Lakers (Off Rk: 10 / Def Rk: 12)
LA Clippers (Off Rk: 4 / Def Rk: 18)

• 2012-13
Conference Finals
Top 10 Offenses: 1
Top 10 Defenses: 4
Top 10 Both: 2
2nd Round
Top 10 Offenses: 4
Top 10 Defenses: 6
Top 10 Both: 3

Miami (Off Rk: 1 / Def Rk: 9)
San Antonio (Off Rk: 7 / Def Rk: 3)
Indiana (Off Rk: 19 / Def Rk: 1)
Memphis (Off Rk: 18 / Def Rk: 2)
New York (Off Rk: 3 / Def Rk: 19)
Chicago (Off Rk: 23 / Def Rk: 6)
Oklahoma City (Off Rk: 2 / Def Rk: 4)
Golden State (Off Rk: 12 / Def Rk: 12)

• 2013-14
Conference Finals
Top 10 Offenses: 3
Top 10 Defenses: 3
Top 10 Both: 2
2nd Round
Top 10 Offenses: 5
Top 10 Defenses: 5
Top 10 Both: 3

San Antonio (Off Rk: 5 / Def Rk: 4)
Miami (Off Rk: 3 / Def Rk: 11)
Indiana (Off Rk: 21 / Def Rk: 1)
Oklahoma City (Off Rk: 7 / Def Rk: 5)
Washington (Off Rk: 20 / Def Rk: 7)
Brooklyn (Off Rk: 15 / Def Rk: 19)
LA Clippers (Off Rk: 1 / Def Rk: 9)
Portland (Off Rk: 2 / Def Rk: 16)

• 2014-15
Conference Finals
Top 10 Offenses: 3
Top 10 Defenses: 3
Top 10 Both: 2
2nd Round
Top 10 Offenses: 4
Top 10 Defenses: 5
Top 10 Both: 2

Golden State (Off Rk: 2 / Def Rk: 1)
Cleveland (Off Rk: 4 / Def Rk: 18)
Atlanta (Off Rk: 6 / Def Rk: 5)
Houston (Off Rk: 12 / Def Rk: 7)
Washington (Off Rk: 22 / Def Rk: 6)
Chicago (Off Rk: 11 / Def Rk: 11)
LA Clippers (Off Rk: 1 / Def Rk: 16)
Memphis (Off Rk: 13 / Def Rk: 2)

• 2015-16
Conference Finals
Top 10 Offenses: 3
Top 10 Defenses: 4
Top 10 Both: 3
2nd Round
Top 10 Offenses: 4
Top 10 Defenses: 5
Top 10 Both: 3

Cleveland (Off Rk: 3 / Def Rk: 10)
Golden State (Off Rk: 1 / Def Rk: 6)
Toronto (Off Rk: 6 / Def Rk: 5)
Oklahoma City (Off Rk: 12 / Def Rk: 7)
Atlanta (Off Rk: 22 / Def Rk: 6)
Miami (Off Rk: 11 / Def Rk: 11)
Portland (Off Rk: 1 / Def Rk: 16)
San Antonio (Off Rk: 13 / Def Rk: 2)

• 2016-17
Conference Finals
Top 10 Offenses: 4
Top 10 Defenses: 2
Top 10 Both: 2
2nd Round
Top 10 Offenses: 7
Top 10 Defenses: 3
Top 10 Both: 2

Golden State (Off Rk: 1 / Def Rk: 2)
Cleveland (Off Rk: 3 / Def Rk: 21)
Boston (Off Rk: 7 / Def Rk: 14)
San Antonio (Off Rk: 9 / Def Rk: 1)
Washington (Off Rk: 8 / Def Rk: 20)
Toronto (Off Rk: 6 / Def Rk: 11)
Utah (Off Rk: 12 / Def Rk: 3)
Houston (Off Rk: 2 / Def Rk: 18)

• 2017-18
Conference Finals
Top 10 Offenses: 3
Top 10 Defenses: 2
Top 10 Both: 1
2nd Round
Top 10 Offenses: 4
Top 10 Defenses: 5
Top 10 Both: 2

Golden State (Off Rk: 3 / Def Rk: 11)
Cleveland (Off Rk: 5 / Def Rk: 29)
Boston (Off Rk: 18 / Def Rk: 2)
Houston (Off Rk: 1 / Def Rk: 7)
Philadelphia (Off Rk: 13 / Def Rk: 3)
Toronto (Off Rk: 2 / Def Rk: 5)
New Orleans (Off Rk: 12 / Def Rk: 14)
Utah (Off Rk: 16 / Def Rk: 1)

• 2018-19
Conference Finals
Top 10 Offenses: 4
Top 10 Defenses: 2
Top 10 Both: 2
2nd Round
Top 10 Offenses: 8
Top 10 Defenses: 4
Top 10 Both: 4

Toronto (Off Rk: 5 / Def Rk: 5)
Golden State (Off Rk: 1 / Def Rk: 11)
Milwaukee (Off Rk: 4 / Def Rk: 1)
Portland (Off Rk: 3 / Def Rk: 16)
Boston (Off Rk: 10 / Def Rk: 6)
Philadelphia (Off Rk: 8 / Def Rk: 14)
Houston (Off Rk: 2 / Def Rk: 17)
Denver (Off Rk: 7 / Def Rk: 10)

---

The NBA usually goes in 4-5 year cycles, so we could be seeing the peak of the pace/space dynamic with a decline on the way. There are many reasons for that, but a lot of it has to do with 4-5 year player and GM contract cycles plus 4-5 year player peak primes.

For example, right now there has been an influx of very skilled bigs that have been entering the NBA in the draft over the past 4-6 years. That means that wave of bigs is only now starting to scratch the surface. They will soon be the dominant post-season force to reckon with. How that will impact the next cycle is still unclear but we are already seeing a shift to big front courts by numerous teams.

There are more 3's being taken now, but team defenses are and have been evolving to combat that by specializing their defenses to stop that threat. They are becoming more effective at understanding that not all 3's are the same and understanding the data of which players/3PT types they need to hone in on and which ones to not sacrifice other elements to stop.
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Re: Regular Season Game 13: Washington Wizards (3-7) at Orlando Magic (5-7) - 6pm ET 

Post#270 » by Blue_and_Whte » Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:58 pm

No "$100 million man" posts?

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Re: Regular Season Game 13: Washington Wizards (3-7) at Orlando Magic (5-7) - 6pm ET 

Post#271 » by PrimeThyme » Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:26 pm

Blue_and_Whte wrote:No "$100 million man" posts?

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Nope, because he is playing like the 100 million dollar man he was paid to be. Clifford said himself Vuc didn't come into this season prepared, so people held him accountable.
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Re: Regular Season Game 13: Washington Wizards (3-7) at Orlando Magic (5-7) - 6pm ET 

Post#272 » by jezzerinho » Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:19 pm

PrimeThyme wrote:
GelbeWand09 wrote:About our Mo. I said some posts before, i hope we see JI as backup C over that road heavy schedule. I fear Mo gonna cost us 1-2 games, if he plays like this & Birch looked like trash too so far (I think he will look better with constant playtime).
Btw: How he looked live in the arena? Body language & co? And congrats your attendance losing streak ended :lol:

Thanks man, when Dj/MCW went down with injuries and then they almost came back at the end and won I was going to vow to never go to another game again :lol:

As far as Mo's body language, it was about what you see on tv. He doesn't show much emotion and looks mostly disinterested at all times. I think he has lost close to all confidence at this point as well. We sat close to our bench so I kind of kept an eye on him the whole game. There was a play in the second quarter where Mo didn't put a body on Bertans who got an offensive rebound and kicked it out to Wagner for a 3, and Cliff immediately took a time out and ripped into Bamba during the huddle.

I thought for sure Cliff was going to pull him immediately from the game after that but he kept him in there until the next two possessions where he missed two-point blanks shots around the rim and then didn't box out Wagner the next possession and got pulled after that. He truthfully looked pretty defeated after that sequence.

I would love to see backup C minutes for Isaac, but it feels like we are a year or two away from seeing that consistently. When Bamba gets pulled from this rotation I'm expecting Birch to get the first crack at backup C minutes.


I'm those situations, a competitive sportsperson should just be hurling himself around the court, trying to make some kind of impact on pure effort alone. Even if he hasn't a clue what he's doing, even if he's in the wrong spots, he'd earn a big slice of forgiveness and patience by just being active. But instead he's sort of checked out. That's a really bad sign, way worse than his lack of grasp of the gameplan. He isn't a competitor and I think will always struggle to be one. Bad acquisition.
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Re: Regular Season Game 13: Washington Wizards (3-7) at Orlando Magic (5-7) - 6pm ET 

Post#273 » by drsd » Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:58 pm

Maybe this was said above, but holy crap, the Magic was 24-26 on their freebies.

WOW

(and there was a 24 to 10 MADE free throw line difference in this game).


Free Throws was the decisive difference in this game by a large margin.



..
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Re: Regular Season Game 13: Washington Wizards (3-7) at Orlando Magic (5-7) - 6pm ET 

Post#274 » by yoyojw17 » Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:13 pm

rcklsscognition wrote:Clifford said something along the lines of, just wait for 25 games and we'll see more of Fultz. I'm curious, first, if he meant about the minutes restrictions. Secondly, was it 25 games more from now, or 25 games into the season?

As i said.... we have only seen the tip of the iceberg with fultz. Can't wait to see what happens when they ask him to try and dominate. and no i'm not assuming an instant 30 point scorer.... but i believe his play will dramatically change the complexion of this team.
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Re: Regular Season Game 13: Washington Wizards (3-7) at Orlando Magic (5-7) - 6pm ET 

Post#275 » by zaymon » Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:25 pm

yoyojw17 wrote:
rcklsscognition wrote:Clifford said something along the lines of, just wait for 25 games and we'll see more of Fultz. I'm curious, first, if he meant about the minutes restrictions. Secondly, was it 25 games more from now, or 25 games into the season?

As i said.... we have only seen the tip of the iceberg with fultz. Can't wait to see what happens when they ask him to try and dominate. and no i'm not assuming an instant 30 point scorer.... but i believe his play will dramatically change the complexion of this team.

If Fultz regains his shot, good luck defending our team. 5 out with top 5 low post scorer, 3 near 40 % shooters and elite driver.
My money is on Banchero going number 1 !

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