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Regular Season Game 19: Golden State Warriors (4-16) at Orlando Magic (7-11) - 6pm ET

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Re: Regular Season Game 19: Golden State Warriors (4-16) at Orlando Magic (7-11) - 6pm ET 

Post#441 » by Xatticus » Tue Dec 3, 2019 12:36 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
SOUL wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
We talk about offense and you talk about DPOY. :clap:
Will you ever build team around Isaac ? No.
For same reasons why you can't build team around Gobert or Draymoond Green or Tony Allen.

Payton averaged 8 ppg on 38% FG while having career low 3,8 assists before injury. You are really going to bark about it ? Don't dig yourself deeper into Payton hole, people just started to forget how out of touch you was when it comes to him.
I was wrong about prediction of rookie ,you kept arguing for 4 years/ 300 games played of evidence Payton is good.


Fultz is 21. Morant is 20, LUka is 20, Trae is 20. SGA is 20.
All 4 of them have 1 year of experience less ( at lest on paper ). Age nowdays is just a number as we had 23 years old DPOY few years back ( Leonard), 24 years old MVP ( Giannis) and front runner for MPV this year is 20 years old.

Only in eyes of this fanbase "grace period" for rookie last 10 years. Gordon is 6th year player and posters talk about his potential :rofl:


Basketball is played with offense and defense, just because this team needs offense doesn't mean his defense isn't insanely valuable to it. And as well as DSJ being bad offensively, he is a sieve on defense. Just a bad player right now.

Isaac has a real chance to be more dynamic on offense than Gobert, Green, or Tony Allen though. Hell, he already is. His ppg this year (which can go up even more) would be a career high for Allen and Draymond in their 22 seasons combined (except 1 year from Draymond at 14 ppg), and he's showing that he can start to work better inside, is developing a three point shot (albeit streaky), and is a good FT shooter.

Again, Isaac's offense this year is better than Vuc's 5th-7th years, so why can't the we turn into a team built around Isaac if his offense gets better? I don't want him to be a #1 option (just like I don't want Vuc to be) because I think it's a pipe dream that he ever turns into a Giannis, but hey, I can't say he wouldn't turn into even a Siakam type of player who's 25 and doing what he's doing. Who knows? Like seriously, what is stopping him? He's on pace to be a better FT shooter and equal three point shooter basically to Vuc already.

And I mean, you still won't admit that they've proven you wrong so far fully.. even the people that agree with you on Fournier and Vuc don't agree with your views on Fultz or Isaac because you can't predict the future and will prob use examples of players that didn't improve offensively which will make no sense because there is no fixed trajectory.

You keep bringing up Payton because you are losing other arguments.. I'm not going to reply your stats from four game sample before an injury :lol:


Bla bla bla

Isaac is player who only makes wide open jumpers as nobody guards him most of the time

i keep bringing Payton because him and Gordon are best examples how bad you are at evaluating talents.

Like, you literally claimed they will be duo that will take Magic to next level, Gordon will be next superstar and Payton will be top 10 PG. What happend? Reality K.O.ed you?

My prediction for this franchise if it ever comes to Isaac and Fultz to lead them is simple: They will Payton-Gordon-ed it to another rebuild.
give me 2 years so i can mock your opinions again.

Now i just have enough time,evidence and space to mock your wrong claims from 2016,2017 and 2018.

Is Gordon allstar this year ? I mean you kept saying that for 4 years, is it finally his time , or it's just "evil Evan" who holds him down ? :lol: :lol:


"be more dynamic than Draymoond" and goes to look at his ppgs. I guess averaging 7,4 apg means nothing to you. No suprise, as you advocate for player who is career 1,00 APG player.

Btw , let's use some flawed, failed and childish logic against you for a bit.
If Isaac is elite defender, Gordon is great defender, and Fultz is defensive stud why Magic are 9th and not 1# best defense? How can it be that team that has Murray, Harris and Jokić are best defensive team in basketball?

Why team that has TJ Warren, Lamb and Sabo is ranked higher than Magic despite only having 1 great defender on whole roster?
It just means they are not that great and should be traded. I mean that's pretty much core logic you and Knighro are operating this Evan- Vučević attack.

This is my last post about this topic, this board went full crazy mode and turned into two players- bashing in favor of some unproven, flawed rookie scale contracts that are yet to show any flashes of stardom , hell one of them, Bamba is yet to show any flashes he should be in NBA


Why do you keep bringing up Payton? Why are you trying to do victory laps? He is still a starting PG in the NBA. If we had Payton, we would be a better, right now, because Augustin still has a significant role on this team. Payton is a much better PG than Augustin. If we just camped them in a corner, then Augustin might be more useful, but we run our offense through him whenever he is on the floor and he is dreadful at running an offense.

You should at least wait until Payton is out of New York to bring him up again. It's difficult to sell this as a win when he is the starting PG on a roster that has DSJ on it. DSJ probably wouldn't even be in NY's rotation if Payton was healthy. We aren't even 12 months removed from you wanting to trade our best player, at this very moment, to acquire DSJ.

Speaking of Isaac, we should absolutely be trying to build this team around him. I don't believe it's just a coincidence that we became a good defensive team when Isaac joined the lineup. You might've forgotten, but we used to be awful at both ends of the floor. Isaac is our best hope to a bright future at this point.

It occurred to me recently that you would've absolutely loved Paul Westhead. He coached the Lakers before Magic Johnson forced him out in favor of Pat Riley. After that, he went to Loyola Marymount where he set all sorts of offensive records in the NCAA before returning to the NBA with the Denver Nuggets. He took with him his run-and-gun experiment from LMU. Denver led the NBA in scoring in his first year there, but won 20 games because they conceded 130 points per game. They weren't efficient, but they scored a hell of a lot of points. He was forced to abandon the run-and-gun in the following year. They sunk to near bottom in points per game, but managed to win four more games than the previous year (24-58). He was subsequently fired.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DEN/1991.html

There is a lesson to be learned in this.
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Re: Regular Season Game 19: Golden State Warriors (4-16) at Orlando Magic (7-11) - 6pm ET 

Post#442 » by pepe1991 » Tue Dec 3, 2019 12:55 pm

Xatticus wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
SOUL wrote:
Basketball is played with offense and defense, just because this team needs offense doesn't mean his defense isn't insanely valuable to it. And as well as DSJ being bad offensively, he is a sieve on defense. Just a bad player right now.

Isaac has a real chance to be more dynamic on offense than Gobert, Green, or Tony Allen though. Hell, he already is. His ppg this year (which can go up even more) would be a career high for Allen and Draymond in their 22 seasons combined (except 1 year from Draymond at 14 ppg), and he's showing that he can start to work better inside, is developing a three point shot (albeit streaky), and is a good FT shooter.

Again, Isaac's offense this year is better than Vuc's 5th-7th years, so why can't the we turn into a team built around Isaac if his offense gets better? I don't want him to be a #1 option (just like I don't want Vuc to be) because I think it's a pipe dream that he ever turns into a Giannis, but hey, I can't say he wouldn't turn into even a Siakam type of player who's 25 and doing what he's doing. Who knows? Like seriously, what is stopping him? He's on pace to be a better FT shooter and equal three point shooter basically to Vuc already.

And I mean, you still won't admit that they've proven you wrong so far fully.. even the people that agree with you on Fournier and Vuc don't agree with your views on Fultz or Isaac because you can't predict the future and will prob use examples of players that didn't improve offensively which will make no sense because there is no fixed trajectory.

You keep bringing up Payton because you are losing other arguments.. I'm not going to reply your stats from four game sample before an injury :lol:


Bla bla bla

Isaac is player who only makes wide open jumpers as nobody guards him most of the time

i keep bringing Payton because him and Gordon are best examples how bad you are at evaluating talents.

Like, you literally claimed they will be duo that will take Magic to next level, Gordon will be next superstar and Payton will be top 10 PG. What happend? Reality K.O.ed you?

My prediction for this franchise if it ever comes to Isaac and Fultz to lead them is simple: They will Payton-Gordon-ed it to another rebuild.
give me 2 years so i can mock your opinions again.

Now i just have enough time,evidence and space to mock your wrong claims from 2016,2017 and 2018.

Is Gordon allstar this year ? I mean you kept saying that for 4 years, is it finally his time , or it's just "evil Evan" who holds him down ? :lol: :lol:


"be more dynamic than Draymoond" and goes to look at his ppgs. I guess averaging 7,4 apg means nothing to you. No suprise, as you advocate for player who is career 1,00 APG player.

Btw , let's use some flawed, failed and childish logic against you for a bit.
If Isaac is elite defender, Gordon is great defender, and Fultz is defensive stud why Magic are 9th and not 1# best defense? How can it be that team that has Murray, Harris and Jokić are best defensive team in basketball?

Why team that has TJ Warren, Lamb and Sabo is ranked higher than Magic despite only having 1 great defender on whole roster?
It just means they are not that great and should be traded. I mean that's pretty much core logic you and Knighro are operating this Evan- Vučević attack.

This is my last post about this topic, this board went full crazy mode and turned into two players- bashing in favor of some unproven, flawed rookie scale contracts that are yet to show any flashes of stardom , hell one of them, Bamba is yet to show any flashes he should be in NBA


Why do you keep bringing up Payton? Why are you trying to do victory laps? He is still a starting PG in the NBA. If we had Payton, we would be a better, right now, because Augustin still has a significant role on this team. Payton is a much better PG than Augustin. If we just camped them in a corner, then Augustin might be more useful, but we run our offense through him whenever he is on the floor and he is dreadful at running an offense.

You should at least wait until Payton is out of New York to bring him up again. It's difficult to sell this as a win when he is the starting PG on a roster that has DSJ on it. DSJ probably wouldn't even be in NY's rotation if Payton was healthy. We aren't even 12 months removed from you wanting to trade our best player, at this very moment, to acquire DSJ.

Speaking of Isaac, we should absolutely be trying to build this team around him. I don't believe it's just a coincidence that we became a good defensive team when Isaac joined the lineup. You might've forgotten, but we used to be awful at both ends of the floor. Isaac is our best hope to a bright future at this point.

It occurred to me recently that you would've absolutely loved Paul Westhead. He coached the Lakers before Magic Johnson forced him out in favor of Pat Riley. After that, he went to Loyola Marymount where he set all sorts of offensive records in the NCAA before returning to the NBA with the Denver Nuggets. He took with him his run-and-gun experiment from LMU. Denver led the NBA in scoring in his first year there, but won 20 games because they conceded 130 points per game. They weren't efficient, but they scored a hell of a lot of points. He was forced to abandon the run-and-gun in the following year. They sunk to near bottom in points per game, but managed to win four more games than the previous year (24-58). He was subsequently fired.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DEN/1991.html

There is a lesson to be learned in this.


And there is poster who claimed Magic won't be worst team without Vučević and how his usage will be spread to others and how everybody would benefit from it-- 2 weeks ago.
I hope you enjoy this huge wins over Cavs and Warriors and you are super pleased how offense looked without Vuć since that's what your stand was.

Now quick go and edit out your old posts like you did in argument with ezzep before somebody qoutes you.

if i'm not mistaking, you are another Gordon -allstar member ,right?

"Payton starter" where ? On Knicks, Pelicans, Suns and Magic? What all 4 teams have in common?
Ofc let's not forger all previous teams dumped him for nothing or almost nothing. But ofc they have tanking in common.

Speaking of Isaac, we should absolutely be trying to build this team around him. I don't believe it's just a coincidence that we became a good defensive team when Isaac joined the lineup. You might've forgotten, but we used to be awful at both ends of the floor. Isaac is our best hope to a bright future at this point.

No you can't build a team around challenged offensive player that demands no attention and his only skills are all based on defense. That's why Warriors built their team around Curry, not Draymoond ,as Green just was right peace in right situation for Curry, not other way around.

Every single good team today in basketball is built around elite superstar - offensive player. For same reasons Dallas is making team around LUka Dončić and not Porzingis ( 4th in blocks) and Blazers have Lillard, not Whiteside ( 4th in blocks) to build team around.

How can somebody watch basketball for decades and even think for a second you can build team around defender? Literally only team that actually tried to do it were 76ers when they force fed Igoudala into "star " by force-feeding offense through him. After 1 lucky playoff series ( Rose first ACL tear) they were forced into new rebuild.

Mindblowing.
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Re: Regular Season Game 19: Golden State Warriors (4-16) at Orlando Magic (7-11) - 6pm ET 

Post#443 » by GelbeWand09 » Tue Dec 3, 2019 1:10 pm

I'm not in the mood to write again a long text about how good Isaac already is. Instead i let TRUE FACTS speak.

Jonathan Isaac not a elite defender (like posted 2 or 3 post above) ?

Blocks: 1st
Stocks: 2nd
Defensive Rating: 5th
DBPM: 2nd
Defensive Points Saved: 5th
RAPTOR Def: tied 5th

Magic defensive rating with the SAME core, before Isaac became a healthy starter: 22, 16, 25

Jonathan Isaac worth building around him?

RAPTOR: 16th in the NBA
BPM: 16th in the NBA
Total Points Added: 16th in the NBA

Conclusion: 22 years old and a top 16 impact player in the NBA. Much better stats than Vuc at the same age (or older) (Not a Vuc diss, just for some perspective)
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Re: Regular Season Game 19: Golden State Warriors (4-16) at Orlando Magic (7-11) - 6pm ET 

Post#444 » by pepe1991 » Tue Dec 3, 2019 1:24 pm

GelbeWand09 wrote:I'm not in the mood to write again a long text about how good Isaac already is. Instead i let TRUE FACTS speak.

Jonathan Isaac not a elite defender (like posted 2 or 3 post above) ?

Blocks: 1st
Stocks: 2nd
Defensive Rating: 5th
DBPM: 2nd
Defensive Points Saved: 5th
RAPTOR Def: tied 5th

Magic defensive rating with the SAME core, before Isaac became a healthy starter: 22, 16, 25

Jonathan Isaac worth building around him?

RAPTOR: 16th in the NBA
BPM: 16th in the NBA
Total Points Added: 16th in the NBA

Conclusion: 22 years old and a top 16 impact player in the NBA. Much better stats than Vuc at the same age (or older) (Not a Vuc diss, just for some perspective)


other player who also dominates all that categories, pss don't tell anybody--- Nerlens Noel

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

By raptor data, Smart is top 10 player

it's almost like you can manipulate defensive stats just like you can inflate offensive stats if your team just plays slooooooooooooooooow

oh wait, you can. That's how Memphis had best defensive rating in decades few years back.


do you know who also dominates advanced stats:
Bam Adebayo
Daniel Theis
Javele Mcgee
Matisse Thybulle
Kriss Dunn

All legit cornerstones of franchises :roll:

Utah has guy who will probably win DPOY for 3rd time and it will make him ,at least by that criteria ,greatest defender last 30 years, how is Utah doing ? Well not so well, 12-9 and that's team that has Conley, Mitchell and Bogdanovic and Rudy.

And despite Gobert benig THE BEST screener in basketball Utah sill never passed second round with him.
And despite him being THE BEST dender in nba their ceiling is still clear- as long as they don't have superstar ballhandler ( and that guy is not Conley nor Mitchell) they will never go anywhere.

But go ahead and build your team around defender. Lottery picks will be lit.
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Re: Regular Season Game 19: Golden State Warriors (4-16) at Orlando Magic (7-11) - 6pm ET 

Post#445 » by zaymon » Tue Dec 3, 2019 1:38 pm

I think Isaac can be a difference maker. He has good basketball instincts, shows he can make good reads and he protects the rim. Last few games he played like AGs younger brother on offense which scared me a little. I dont see him as a 1,2,3 option right now, but in few years maybe he can be number 3 option on a contender. Noel fails becouse he doesnt space the floor like JI is starting to do.
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2. Nick Nurse becomes Orlando Magic Head Coach. (15.04.2018)
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Re: Regular Season Game 19: Golden State Warriors (4-16) at Orlando Magic (7-11) - 6pm ET 

Post#446 » by PrimeThyme » Tue Dec 3, 2019 1:39 pm

I've had respect for you as a poster Pepe, but you are just devolving into a straight-up hater with this Isaac hill you’ve been dying on for the past year. He is universally regarded as one of the most impactful players in the league this year && 100% considered an elite defender in this league. Every advanced stat and statistic you are presented with when it comes to Isaac you have to do these mental gymnastics to try and debunk it and discredit him. Unless it comes to his shooting percentages or offensive numbers of course.

Also, it was less than a year ago when you were “objectively calling Xatticus the best poster on this board” so going at him now because he pokes holes in some of your basketball logic doesn't hold much weight to it.
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Re: Regular Season Game 19: Golden State Warriors (4-16) at Orlando Magic (7-11) - 6pm ET 

Post#447 » by thelead » Tue Dec 3, 2019 1:49 pm

zaymon wrote:I think Isaac can be a difference maker. He has good basketball instincts, shows he can make good reads and he protects the rim. Last few games he played like AGs younger brother on offense which scared me a little. I dont see him as a 1,2,3 option right now, but in few years maybe he can be number 3 option on a contender. Noel fails becouse he doesnt space the floor like JI is starting to do.

He ‘can’ a difference maker????

Is that how you value a top 10 defensive player in the game this season?

He IS a difference maker.
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Re: Regular Season Game 19: Golden State Warriors (4-16) at Orlando Magic (7-11) - 6pm ET 

Post#448 » by pepe1991 » Tue Dec 3, 2019 2:01 pm

PrimeThyme wrote:I've had respect for you as a poster Pepe, but you are just devolving into a straight-up hater with this Isaac hill you’ve been dying on for the past year. He is universally regarded as one of the most impactful players in the league this year && 100% considered an elite defender in this league. Every advanced stat and statistic you are presented with when it comes to Isaac you have to do these mental gymnastics to try and debunk it and discredit him. Unless it comes to his shooting percentages or offensive numbers of course.

Also, it was less than a year ago when you were “objectively calling Xatticus the best poster on this board” so going at him now because he pokes holes in some of your basketball logic doesn't hold much weight to it.



Because people ride 19 games sample size as evidence Isaac is now God of analatics, and same posters will still make claims like Adebayo sucks, Smart is not good ,who also happend to be "gods of analytics" this year , but i guess it only counts when you want it to count, right? LIke RAPTOR data that has Isaac in top 15, how many other players you can name from that data?

I'll help you, non. Because it only matter when you ( or whoever ) wants it to matter.
Does Motrezzi Harrell strikes you as second best basketball player in the world?
How about Will Barton as top 10 player ? You buying it?

How about Patty Mills as 5th best point guard?

Ok so non of it matter OR everything matters. Since you guys claims it does.

THIS SAME DATA also shows that EVAN FOURNIER is BETTER BASKETBALL PLAYER THAN:
both Bogdaovic
Chris Paul
Trea Young
Bradley Beal
CJ McCullum
Brown
Brogdon
Middelton
Jokić

and from now on, every single time anybody brings Evan trade i will use this stupditiy of argument to "kick" somebody in head with it. Since you guys claim IT MATTERS.

I have nothing to say about xat, i said 5 days ago that he used to be good poster and asked what happend.
Nowdays he is just agenda driven " blame Vuc for everything" poster who spits bias and hate.

For last i do not bring emotions to arguments , pretty much ever, but go ahead and read this
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1468188&hilit=aaron+gordon+paul+george&start=80

same posters who now want Vučević and Evan are same posters who wanted Gordon to be face of franchize and belived in his superstar potential. How terrible Magic would look if they actualy proceed plan and promote Gordon into next star? Like 12 wins a year bad?
And yes i did got pissed off last two days with amount of garbage people posted against Vučević, you know THE ONLY ORLANDO MAGIC ALLSTAR who didn't leave team on first ship he could take .
Why ? Because it's somehow his fault that team NEVER menaged to find player that is actual superstar and that much better than him?

How is that his problem? How is inability of Orlando Magic to draft ,trade or sign top 10 player , fault of player who spent 8 years ith a team and vast majority of that period on moderate, lower level salary? And NOW his salary is obstacle for free agents'? Why they didn't sign Durant in 2016? Oh i know why, because he didn't even pick up a damn phone.

Because they didn't even get meeting with Paul Millsap.

Oh by the way didn't Isaac actually TURN DOWN practice with Magic prior draft, if i'm not mistaking? ( i'm not 100% sure i know some rookie did ).

So let's stop this bull, Magic main reason of struggle is because they don't have superstar offensive talent. Guess what, they didn't have it since T mac.
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Re: Regular Season Game 19: Golden State Warriors (4-16) at Orlando Magic (7-11) - 6pm ET 

Post#449 » by zaymon » Tue Dec 3, 2019 2:06 pm

thelead wrote:
zaymon wrote:I think Isaac can be a difference maker. He has good basketball instincts, shows he can make good reads and he protects the rim. Last few games he played like AGs younger brother on offense which scared me a little. I dont see him as a 1,2,3 option right now, but in few years maybe he can be number 3 option on a contender. Noel fails becouse he doesnt space the floor like JI is starting to do.

He ‘can’ a difference maker????

Is that how you value a top 10 defensive player in the game this season?

He IS a difference maker.

Well a difference maker on a contender. I really love Isaacs game, but to win a championship you need special players. If his offense doesnt develop he will be more of a rim protecting Danny Green ( which is still super valueable) than Siakam ( great ball handler, post scorer and passer). Isaac is great and affects winning in many ways , but he still needs to get better. Just like any other great player. We won both games without Isaac and Aminu did more than enough. Vucevic and Fournier are our real difference makers this season. Isaac is great role player but at this stage his skill set can be fairly easly replaced. ( not 100% but still)
Bold Predictions:
1. Deandre Ayton biggest disappointment of 2018 draft.
2. Nick Nurse becomes Orlando Magic Head Coach. (15.04.2018)
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Re: Regular Season Game 19: Golden State Warriors (4-16) at Orlando Magic (7-11) - 6pm ET 

Post#450 » by thelead » Tue Dec 3, 2019 2:10 pm

zaymon wrote:
thelead wrote:
zaymon wrote:I think Isaac can be a difference maker. He has good basketball instincts, shows he can make good reads and he protects the rim. Last few games he played like AGs younger brother on offense which scared me a little. I dont see him as a 1,2,3 option right now, but in few years maybe he can be number 3 option on a contender. Noel fails becouse he doesnt space the floor like JI is starting to do.

He ‘can’ a difference maker????

Is that how you value a top 10 defensive player in the game this season?

He IS a difference maker.

Well a difference maker on a contender. I really love Isaacs game, but to win a championship you need special players. If his offense doesnt develop he will be more of a rim protecting Danny Green ( which is still super valueable) than Siakam ( great ball handler, post scorer and passer). Isaac is great and affects winning in many ways , but he still needs to get better. Just like any other great player. We won both games without Isaac and Aminu did more than enough. Vucevic and Fournier are our real difference makers this season. Isaac is great role player but at this stage his skill set can be fairly easly replaced. ( not 100% but still)

We agree that he needs to get better on offense but you cannot easily replace someone who is leading the league in blocks per game, is near the top in steals, and is a defensive eraser for a team when teammates make mistakes.
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Re: Regular Season Game 19: Golden State Warriors (4-16) at Orlando Magic (7-11) - 6pm ET 

Post#451 » by zaymon » Tue Dec 3, 2019 2:19 pm

thelead wrote:
zaymon wrote:
thelead wrote:He ‘can’ a difference maker????

Is that how you value a top 10 defensive player in the game this season?

He IS a difference maker.

Well a difference maker on a contender. I really love Isaacs game, but to win a championship you need special players. If his offense doesnt develop he will be more of a rim protecting Danny Green ( which is still super valueable) than Siakam ( great ball handler, post scorer and passer). Isaac is great and affects winning in many ways , but he still needs to get better. Just like any other great player. We won both games without Isaac and Aminu did more than enough. Vucevic and Fournier are our real difference makers this season. Isaac is great role player but at this stage his skill set can be fairly easly replaced. ( not 100% but still)

We agree that he needs to get better on offense but you cannot easily replace someone who is leading the league in blocks per game, is near the top in steals, and is a defensive eraser for a team when teammates make mistakes.

Not easly but Aminu did it in Portland and he did it here despite a huge struggle. Can you find a player for 10 M to replace Vuc or Evan ? Right now Isaac is elite defender but unless he improves his offense he still could be a negative during playoffs just as he was against Raptors. He improved much since then but still not enough. Either he improves more on offense or Fultz needs to become superstar ( and be a real difference maker)
Bold Predictions:
1. Deandre Ayton biggest disappointment of 2018 draft.
2. Nick Nurse becomes Orlando Magic Head Coach. (15.04.2018)
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Re: Regular Season Game 19: Golden State Warriors (4-16) at Orlando Magic (7-11) - 6pm ET 

Post#452 » by thelead » Tue Dec 3, 2019 2:34 pm

zaymon wrote:
thelead wrote:
zaymon wrote:Well a difference maker on a contender. I really love Isaacs game, but to win a championship you need special players. If his offense doesnt develop he will be more of a rim protecting Danny Green ( which is still super valueable) than Siakam ( great ball handler, post scorer and passer). Isaac is great and affects winning in many ways , but he still needs to get better. Just like any other great player. We won both games without Isaac and Aminu did more than enough. Vucevic and Fournier are our real difference makers this season. Isaac is great role player but at this stage his skill set can be fairly easly replaced. ( not 100% but still)

We agree that he needs to get better on offense but you cannot easily replace someone who is leading the league in blocks per game, is near the top in steals, and is a defensive eraser for a team when teammates make mistakes.

Not easly but Aminu did it in Portland and he did it here despite a huge struggle. Can you find a player for 10 M to replace Vuc or Evan ? Right now Isaac is elite defender but unless he improves his offense he still could be a negative during playoffs just as he was against Raptors. He improved much since then but still not enough. Either he improves more on offense or Fultz needs to become superstar ( and be a real difference maker)

We’ll agree to disagree if you think Aminu‘a defense in Portland is close to what Isaac is providing this year. Evan is JJ Redick level player so you’re right, you’re not going to replace him with a $10 mil player but I think he’s about to become overpaid this summer. Vuc’s skill set is not easily matched but I would argue that his money could be better spent on a ball-dominant superstar if one became available in our fictional world.
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Re: Regular Season Game 19: Golden State Warriors (4-16) at Orlando Magic (7-11) - 6pm ET 

Post#453 » by Bensational » Tue Dec 3, 2019 3:17 pm

pepe1991 wrote:No you can't build a team around challenged offensive player that demands no attention and his only skills are all based on defense. That's why Warriors built their team around Curry, not Draymoond ,as Green just was right peace in right situation for Curry, not other way around.

Every single good team today in basketball is built around elite superstar - offensive player. For same reasons Dallas is making team around LUka Dončić and not Porzingis ( 4th in blocks) and Blazers have Lillard, not Whiteside ( 4th in blocks) to build team around.


I think we both agree our team doesn't have a Curry to build around. In which case, it becomes a question of where do we get one?

Isaac and Fultz aside, let's just consider them young pieces for the future with no expectations on their ceiling or impact. How do guys like Vuc, Fournier or Gordon help us find a Curry? They're clearly not worth one in trade value. Combined they eat up over $60M in cap space.

That is the underlying long-term concern. As much as all of us are sick of tanking, where did Doncic come from? The draft. Where did Young come from? The draft. Where did Curry come from? The draft.

Yes, there are late picks like Giannis and SGA, so a full-blown tank isn't necessary. But until WeHam can land that one pivotal piece who will tie it all together, going back to that well (not tanking, but rolling with the injury punches and accepting a losing season) might be the only answer we have left since we'll have no future cap flexibility for at least 3-4 years.
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Re: Regular Season Game 19: Golden State Warriors (4-16) at Orlando Magic (7-11) - 6pm ET 

Post#454 » by pepe1991 » Tue Dec 3, 2019 3:29 pm

Bensational wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:No you can't build a team around challenged offensive player that demands no attention and his only skills are all based on defense. That's why Warriors built their team around Curry, not Draymoond ,as Green just was right peace in right situation for Curry, not other way around.

Every single good team today in basketball is built around elite superstar - offensive player. For same reasons Dallas is making team around LUka Dončić and not Porzingis ( 4th in blocks) and Blazers have Lillard, not Whiteside ( 4th in blocks) to build team around.


I think we both agree our team doesn't have a Curry to build around. In which case, it becomes a question of where do we get one?

Isaac and Fultz aside, let's just consider them young pieces for the future with no expectations on their ceiling or impact. How do guys like Vuc, Fournier or Gordon help us find a Curry? They're clearly not worth one in trade value. Combined they eat up over $60M in cap space.

That is the underlying long-term concern. As much as all of us are sick of tanking, where did Doncic come from? The draft. Where did Young come from? The draft. Where did Curry come from? The draft.

Yes, there are late picks like Giannis and SGA, so a full-blown tank isn't necessary. But until WeHam can land that one pivotal piece who will tie it all together, going back to that well (not tanking, but rolling with the injury punches and accepting a losing season) might be the only answer we have left since we'll have no future cap flexibility for at least 3-4 years.


But most of top tear players actually do not play on teams that drafted them. In almost all cases of superstars , they tend to win titles with teams they sign AFTER rookie + rookie extension deals are up.

If you look at landscape of superstars, Curry and Giannis are only superstars who play on teams that drafted them, and keep in mind Giannis is 24 and already said that his re-singing to Bucks will come down to their sucess this year, so he could be on a move as well.

Having young superstar is amazing, but even when you menage to do so, you are still ages away from contending, as you need more stars, and let's face it, nowdays stars just plot their way out of teams and group whenever they want ( Kawhi and George, Davis and Lebron )

i didn't count Doncic as superstar, guy is second year player, ofc he can't leave team even if he wants to ( btw he was also traded )
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Re: Regular Season Game 19: Golden State Warriors (4-16) at Orlando Magic (7-11) - 6pm ET 

Post#455 » by GelbeWand09 » Tue Dec 3, 2019 3:37 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
GelbeWand09 wrote:I'm not in the mood to write again a long text about how good Isaac already is. Instead i let TRUE FACTS speak.

Jonathan Isaac not a elite defender (like posted 2 or 3 post above) ?

Blocks: 1st
Stocks: 2nd
Defensive Rating: 5th
DBPM: 2nd
Defensive Points Saved: 5th
RAPTOR Def: tied 5th

Magic defensive rating with the SAME core, before Isaac became a healthy starter: 22, 16, 25

Jonathan Isaac worth building around him?

RAPTOR: 16th in the NBA
BPM: 16th in the NBA
Total Points Added: 16th in the NBA

Conclusion: 22 years old and a top 16 impact player in the NBA. Much better stats than Vuc at the same age (or older) (Not a Vuc diss, just for some perspective)


other player who also dominates all that categories, pss don't tell anybody--- Nerlens Noel

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

By raptor data, Smart is top 10 player

it's almost like you can manipulate defensive stats just like you can inflate offensive stats if your team just plays slooooooooooooooooow

oh wait, you can. That's how Memphis had best defensive rating in decades few years back.


do you know who also dominates advanced stats:
Bam Adebayo
Daniel Theis
Javele Mcgee
Matisse Thybulle
Kriss Dunn

All legit cornerstones of franchises :roll:

Utah has guy who will probably win DPOY for 3rd time and it will make him ,at least by that criteria ,greatest defender last 30 years, how is Utah doing ? Well not so well, 12-9 and that's team that has Conley, Mitchell and Bogdanovic and Rudy.

And despite Gobert benig THE BEST screener in basketball Utah sill never passed second round with him.
And despite him being THE BEST dender in nba their ceiling is still clear- as long as they don't have superstar ballhandler ( and that guy is not Conley nor Mitchell) they will never go anywhere.

But go ahead and build your team around defender. Lottery picks will be lit.


I post it again & again & again. Sorry for you. I post actual fact and not make a living of cherry picking stats. :lol:

Jonathan Isaac not a elite defender (like posted 2 or 3 post above) ?

Blocks: 1st
Stocks: 2nd
Defensive Rating: 5th
DBPM: 2nd
Defensive Points Saved: 5th
RAPTOR Def: tied 5th

Magic defensive rating with the SAME core, before Isaac became a healthy starter: 22, 16, 25

Jonathan Isaac worth building around him?

RAPTOR: 16th in the NBA
BPM: 16th in the NBA
Total Points Added: 16th in the NBA

Conclusion: 22 years old and a top 16 impact player in the NBA. Much better stats than Vuc at the same age (or older) (Not a Vuc diss, just for some perspective)
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Re: Regular Season Game 19: Golden State Warriors (4-16) at Orlando Magic (7-11) - 6pm ET 

Post#456 » by Bensational » Tue Dec 3, 2019 4:06 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
Bensational wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:No you can't build a team around challenged offensive player that demands no attention and his only skills are all based on defense. That's why Warriors built their team around Curry, not Draymoond ,as Green just was right peace in right situation for Curry, not other way around.

Every single good team today in basketball is built around elite superstar - offensive player. For same reasons Dallas is making team around LUka Dončić and not Porzingis ( 4th in blocks) and Blazers have Lillard, not Whiteside ( 4th in blocks) to build team around.


I think we both agree our team doesn't have a Curry to build around. In which case, it becomes a question of where do we get one?

Isaac and Fultz aside, let's just consider them young pieces for the future with no expectations on their ceiling or impact. How do guys like Vuc, Fournier or Gordon help us find a Curry? They're clearly not worth one in trade value. Combined they eat up over $60M in cap space.

That is the underlying long-term concern. As much as all of us are sick of tanking, where did Doncic come from? The draft. Where did Young come from? The draft. Where did Curry come from? The draft.

Yes, there are late picks like Giannis and SGA, so a full-blown tank isn't necessary. But until WeHam can land that one pivotal piece who will tie it all together, going back to that well (not tanking, but rolling with the injury punches and accepting a losing season) might be the only answer we have left since we'll have no future cap flexibility for at least 3-4 years.


But most of top tear players actually do not play on teams that drafted them. In almost all cases of superstars , they tend to win titles with teams they sign AFTER rookie + rookie extension deals are up.

If you look at landscape of superstars, Curry and Giannis are only superstars who play on teams that drafted them, and keep in mind Giannis is 24 and already said that his re-singing to Bucks will come down to their sucess this year, so he could be on a move as well.

Having young superstar is amazing, but even when you menage to do so, you are still ages away from contending, as you need more stars, and let's face it, nowdays stars just plot their way out of teams and group whenever they want ( Kawhi and George, Davis and Lebron )

i didn't count Doncic as superstar, guy is second year player, ofc he can't leave team even if he wants to ( btw he was also traded )


There are plenty of factors that go into whether or not a player will stay or leave. But if the team can win a championship within those first 7 years then they will have achieved their ultimate goal, right? Hoping to build a 10+ year dynasty in this climate just isn't reasonable these days. But getting a contending window for 3-4 years and a championship is all any team can hope for.

Unfortunately, that will often give the player that same sense of accomplishment and open the door to them trying a new chapter. (see Kawhi, Kyrie, etc)

Consequently, if the team doesn't look like they can legitimately contend, that might also pave the way out. (see Davis, George, potentially Giannis, etc).

If the team seems on the cusp, and the player feels they have the right support around them, they might lock in again (see Harden, Lillard, Curry/Klay/Dray).

If the team seems on the cusp but the player doesn't like who they're playing with, then they might also want out (see Durant with RW, Butler with KAT/Embiid/Simmons).

But the fact is it all starts with that one first piece, and then a strong supporting cast with a development pathway for continuing to refresh the stockpile with cheap depth during a run. You will disagree, but maybe Fultz is that secondary piece, the Kyrie to a LeBron. Isaac could be the Draymond to a Curry and Klay. Or maybe not? Both points are moot until we land a Doncic/Trae/Giannis to build around in the first place.
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Re: Regular Season Game 19: Golden State Warriors (4-16) at Orlando Magic (7-11) - 6pm ET 

Post#457 » by MagicMatic » Tue Dec 3, 2019 4:38 pm

I don’t think anyone is really claiming to “build around” Isaac. However, he is a cornerstone piece that will 100% give the team an identity that’s been sorely missing. If his game transcends another level, and he takes the reigns, then so be it.

I don’t get how anyone could watch games this season and not be excited by his game and where it’s going.

Now on offense Orlando should be doing everything they can to acquire a go-to swingman to pair with Isaac regardless. I don’t know what that has to do with JI as I think the bigger target(s) would be the other vets.

This ultimately comes down to choices being made with the roster. It’s highly unlikely we find this player outside of the lottery, or that they are currently on this roster. Fultz was a major upgrade to DJ, but he has a ways to go before we can claim him as the go-to guy we hang our hat on in the future.

As far as Vuc goes, I don’t get why people are so resistant to change when the offense isn’t good to begin with and 25% of our cap is spent on a guy that is the focal point to that system. What are these people banking on? It has to either be Okeke or Fultz hitting a level that makes them allstars, or they think there is enough value on this roster to make a trade for one. I have yet to see a proposal for who this player would be or what would even make sense without ditching the system that is inherently flawed. The more comical development is people spinning the narrative that this offense is actually really good, like people haven’t been paying attention for the last 5-6 years...
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Re: Regular Season Game 19: Golden State Warriors (4-16) at Orlando Magic (7-11) - 6pm ET 

Post#458 » by BadMofoPimp » Tue Dec 3, 2019 5:47 pm

thelead wrote:
zaymon wrote:
thelead wrote:We agree that he needs to get better on offense but you cannot easily replace someone who is leading the league in blocks per game, is near the top in steals, and is a defensive eraser for a team when teammates make mistakes.

Not easly but Aminu did it in Portland and he did it here despite a huge struggle. Can you find a player for 10 M to replace Vuc or Evan ? Right now Isaac is elite defender but unless he improves his offense he still could be a negative during playoffs just as he was against Raptors. He improved much since then but still not enough. Either he improves more on offense or Fultz needs to become superstar ( and be a real difference maker)

We’ll agree to disagree if you think Aminu‘a defense in Portland is close to what Isaac is providing this year. Evan is JJ Redick level player so you’re right, you’re not going to replace him with a $10 mil player but I think he’s about to become overpaid this summer. Vuc’s skill set is not easily matched but I would argue that his money could be better spent on a ball-dominant superstar if one became available in our fictional world.


As if Ball Dominant Superstars are ever available and if they become Free Agents, the chances of them considering the Magic are about zero.
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Re: Regular Season Game 19: Golden State Warriors (4-16) at Orlando Magic (7-11) - 6pm ET 

Post#459 » by BadMofoPimp » Tue Dec 3, 2019 5:52 pm

I think moving Isaac to PF to play alongside Vooch could lead to a dominant defensive front line for years to come.
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Re: Regular Season Game 19: Golden State Warriors (4-16) at Orlando Magic (7-11) - 6pm ET 

Post#460 » by yoyojw17 » Tue Dec 3, 2019 6:16 pm

BadMofoPimp wrote:
thelead wrote:
zaymon wrote:Not easly but Aminu did it in Portland and he did it here despite a huge struggle. Can you find a player for 10 M to replace Vuc or Evan ? Right now Isaac is elite defender but unless he improves his offense he still could be a negative during playoffs just as he was against Raptors. He improved much since then but still not enough. Either he improves more on offense or Fultz needs to become superstar ( and be a real difference maker)

We’ll agree to disagree if you think Aminu‘a defense in Portland is close to what Isaac is providing this year. Evan is JJ Redick level player so you’re right, you’re not going to replace him with a $10 mil player but I think he’s about to become overpaid this summer. Vuc’s skill set is not easily matched but I would argue that his money could be better spent on a ball-dominant superstar if one became available in our fictional world.


As if Ball Dominant Superstars are ever available and if they become Free Agents, the chances of them considering the Magic are about zero.

Fultz is being eased into this season. And i am more than sure the goal with him is not that he will be a career 21% USG Rate type of player. If all goes well through all of the milestones... we might be seeing him hitting that 27-30% usage rate on 32ish min a game in the future (possibly not this season). The ball will be in his hands a lot and hopefully less in the hands of certain other players. The kid gets to his spot and his gravity will only continue to go. And if he gets a JUMPER... "Watch out now"!

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