Regular Season Game 22: Orlando Magic (10-11) at Cleveland Cavaliers (5-15) - 7pm ET

[fklt]

lol all of this after a win.

[ezzzp]

I mean no disrespect by this, but what you're saying is just not accurate whatsoever.

Watch the play again. Gordon doesn't "reject" a screen from Birch because Birch never even actually gets close enough to set a screen to reject.

AG starts his left-to-right rip move into a rhythm dribble the moment he catches the ball, well before Birch ever even got close to getting in position to actually set a screen. Frankly, I don't even think Gordon even saw or paid any consideration to Birch at all. He was dead set on attacking because it was a dwindling shot clock.

Osman in no way, shape or form even paid attention to Birch's non-existent "screen" because he saw Gordon's taking a rhythm dribble to the right to start to build up a head of steam for his drive in isolation instantly. Osman definitely did not have to navigate anything defensively from Birch. Osman didn't even glance to his right. And Birch's man (Thompson) didn't even move a step!

So what you said is just flat out false. Two defenders did NOT have to negotiate Birch's screen because there was no screen. Birch made a pass and AG started going right before Birch could even trot over.

Beyond that...

I didn't say it was a *requirement* for a screener to be a good shooter to be effective. It's not. Don't put words in my mouth that I didn't say. It's just common sense that the more dangerous the screener is, whether that's as a shooter, passer, rim runner, whatever it is, the easier it's going to be for the pick and roll ball handler to be effective as a scorer. The Cavs (or any other defense) wouldn't dare blitz Fournier with a double team in that situation if Vucevic is setting that screen, ya know?

So think about it...

If blitzing Fournier with a quick double team is not a viable option for the defense when Vucevic is the screener and switching isn't a viable option either because Vucevic will take the opposing SG into the post, then that greatly limits the kind of coverages defenses are comfortable using against that 2/5 action.

When it's Birch and not Vucevic? Well right off the bat Khem can't shoot. He can make a simple pivot pass, but most of the time that's actually moving the ball away from the basket like it did in this scenario. Khem also can't dribble and doesn't have great roll gravity because he's scared to shoot unless it's completely uncontested. His hands are also worse than Vucevic's as well.

So which screener do you think is going to provide Fournier easier shots in 2/5 pick and roll, Vucevic or Birch?

I can't believe I'm going to argue the semantics of seconds with you, but Birch *passed* the ball at 8 and Gordon *caught* the ball at 7 on the shot clock almost 30 feet from the basket. No matter what AG does after the catch, whether he drives and shoots it quickly or passes it immediately, he's so far away from the rim upon receiving the ball that no Magic player is getting a shot up until about 4 seconds left on the clock at best. There's just not enough time with AG that far from the basket.

In your best case scenario, you say Gordon should have sent it to the right corner immediately (Fultz is covered btw). So Markelle catches the ball against a ready defender and a set defense with about 5 seconds on the shot clock and no possible screener anywhere close enough to get there.

Were you aware that Fultz is shooting 28.5% (12-42) from the floor with 7 seconds or less on the shot clock this year?

Were you aware that Fultz has less than 10 isolation possessions all year?

He hasn't attacked without a screen (which he wouldn't have gotten) in the halfcourt very much at all this season and he's been really ineffective when he's forced to shoot the ball (aka late in the clock and he has no other choice).

I mean no disrespect in this, but you have no idea about what you are trying to talk about.

Birch is absolutely trying to set a screen, he's not rolling or popping, he's stepping up into Gordon's defender.

AND...if you interpret the play like you just did, that makes your ridiculous statement about Birch and your defense of Gordon that much worst. Anyone with understanding of bb principles knows better.

I can no longer take you seriously. You're wrong and in denial of piles of evidence against your very bad take and obvious agenda.

[Knightro]

I mean no disrespect in this, but you have no idea about what you are trying to talk about.

Birch is absolutely trying to set a screen, he's not rolling or popping, he's stepping up into Gordon's defender.

AND...if you interpret the play like you just did, that makes your ridiculous statement about Birch and your defense of Gordon that much worst. Anyone with understanding of bb principles knows better.

I can no longer take you seriously. You're wrong and in denial of piles of evidence against your very bad take and obvious agenda.

Buddy...

I 100% understand that Birch intended to get himself position himself to offer up a screen for Gordon.

But I'm telling you I've watched the play 50 times now. Gordon went straight into an ISO on Osman as soon as he caught the pass and before Birch ever got close enough to actually set a screen.

The whole concept of rejecting a ball screen is to manipulate the defender into thinking you're about to run them into a screen going one direction and get them leaning that direction before quickly changing and going the other way. Taking advantage

Aaron Gordon *did not* do this. He didn't look at or fake towards Birch (candidly, I don't even think he saw him coming). He didn't do anything to make Osman think a screen was coming or get Osman off balance. He also didn't read the coverage of the closest help defender either (Thompson) was providing. AG simply caught the pass and immediately went right as Birch trotted towards him.

For you to suggest that was a Gordon/Birch pick and roll action is just totally disingenuous.

Now if you want to keep discussing this, you can PM me and I'm happy to continue to conversation there because we've cluttered up enough of this thread going back and forth on this.

[Optimus_Steel]

Over analysis over a game in early December, that we won.

[fendilim]

I mean no disrespect in this, but you have no idea about what you are trying to talk about.

Birch is absolutely trying to set a screen, he's not rolling or popping, he's stepping up into Gordon's defender.

AND...if you interpret the play like you just did, that makes your ridiculous statement about Birch and your defense of Gordon that much worst. Anyone with understanding of bb principles knows better.

I can no longer take you seriously. You're wrong and in denial of piles of evidence against your very bad take and obvious agenda.

Buddy...

I 100% understand that Birch intended to get himself position himself to offer up a screen for Gordon.

But I'm telling you I've watched the play 50 times now. Gordon went straight into an ISO on Osman as soon as he caught the pass and before Birch ever got close enough to actually set a screen.

The whole concept of rejecting a ball screen is to manipulate the defender into thinking you're about to run them into a screen going one direction and get them leaning that direction before quickly changing and going the other way. Taking advantage

Aaron Gordon *did not* do this. He didn't look at or fake towards Birch (candidly, I don't even think he saw him coming). He didn't do anything to make Osman think a screen was coming or get Osman off balance. He also didn't read the coverage of the closest help defender either (Thompson) was providing. AG simply caught the pass and immediately went right as Birch trotted towards him.

For you to suggest that was a Gordon/Birch pick and roll action is just totally disingenuous.

Now if you want to keep discussing this, you can PM me and I'm happy to continue to conversation there because we've cluttered up enough of this thread going back and forth on this.

i agree with this. When i saw ag went into iso ball, i smh. Then i saw birch come but he didnt even used the pick lol

[fendilim]

I mean no disrespect in this, but you have no idea about what you are trying to talk about.

Birch is absolutely trying to set a screen, he's not rolling or popping, he's stepping up into Gordon's defender.

AND...if you interpret the play like you just did, that makes your ridiculous statement about Birch and your defense of Gordon that much worst. Anyone with understanding of bb principles knows better.

I can no longer take you seriously. You're wrong and in denial of piles of evidence against your very bad take and obvious agenda.

Buddy...

I 100% understand that Birch intended to get himself position himself to offer up a screen for Gordon.

But I'm telling you I've watched the play 50 times now. Gordon went straight into an ISO on Osman as soon as he caught the pass and before Birch ever got close enough to actually set a screen.

The whole concept of rejecting a ball screen is to manipulate the defender into thinking you're about to run them into a screen going one direction and get them leaning that direction before quickly changing and going the other way. Taking advantage

Aaron Gordon *did not* do this. He didn't look at or fake towards Birch (candidly, I don't even think he saw him coming). He didn't do anything to make Osman think a screen was coming or get Osman off balance. He also didn't read the coverage of the closest help defender either (Thompson) was providing. AG simply caught the pass and immediately went right as Birch trotted towards him.

For you to suggest that was a Gordon/Birch pick and roll action is just totally disingenuous.

Now if you want to keep discussing this, you can PM me and I'm happy to continue to conversation there because we've cluttered up enough of this thread going back and forth on this.

Read on Twitter

[ezzzp]

Buddy...

I 100% understand that Birch intended to get himself position himself to offer up a screen for Gordon.

But I'm telling you I've watched the play 50 times now. Gordon went straight into an ISO on Osman as soon as he caught the pass and before Birch ever got close enough to actually set a screen.

The whole concept of rejecting a ball screen is to manipulate the defender into thinking you're about to run them into a screen going one direction and get them leaning that direction before quickly changing and going the other way. Taking advantage

Aaron Gordon *did not* do this. He didn't look at or fake towards Birch (candidly, I don't even think he saw him coming). He didn't do anything to make Osman think a screen was coming or get Osman off balance. He also didn't read the coverage of the closest help defender either (Thompson) was providing. AG simply caught the pass and immediately went right as Birch trotted towards him.

For you to suggest that was a Gordon/Birch pick and roll action is just totally disingenuous.

Now if you want to keep discussing this, you can PM me and I'm happy to continue to conversation there because we've cluttered up enough of this thread going back and forth on this.

Hey buddy, even after watching it 50 times you are still foolishly arguing that Gordon's play was totally fine and so far you have desperately tried to blame it on:

....Fournier as a PnR option, despite statistical facts that confirm he is the Magic's best PnR player

...the 2/5 PnR as a possession initiator, despite statistical facts showing its the Magic's most effective initial action in half court set. It was the right play for Clifford to initiate a late game possession.

...You have claimed that Isaac was not open, despite photographic and video evidence showing Isaac's defender literally having a foot in the restricted and Gordon clearly having visibility and passing lane

...That the play didn't work because Birch can't shoot...as if PnR's require the screener to be a shooting threat..and then you even attacked Birch's passing, a known solid and willing passer, as if he wasn't a threat to make a simple pivot pass. WOW.

...Argued that 7 seconds isn't enough to execute a good action and then that in that situation a Gordon drive is better than a Fultz drive LMAO

NOW you are trying to deflect it into a tangent about wether what AG did is labeled and ISO or PnR??!!!! What a total load of nonsense. As if that somehow makes his garbage decision better!

[ezzzp]

I mean no disrespect in this, but you have no idea about what you are trying to talk about.

Birch is absolutely trying to set a screen, he's not rolling or popping, he's stepping up into Gordon's defender.

AND...if you interpret the play like you just did, that makes your ridiculous statement about Birch and your defense of Gordon that much worst. Anyone with understanding of bb principles knows better.

I can no longer take you seriously. You're wrong and in denial of piles of evidence against your very bad take and obvious agenda.

Buddy...

I 100% understand that Birch intended to get himself position himself to offer up a screen for Gordon.

But I'm telling you I've watched the play 50 times now. Gordon went straight into an ISO on Osman as soon as he caught the pass and before Birch ever got close enough to actually set a screen.

The whole concept of rejecting a ball screen is to manipulate the defender into thinking you're about to run them into a screen going one direction and get them leaning that direction before quickly changing and going the other way. Taking advantage

Aaron Gordon *did not* do this. He didn't look at or fake towards Birch (candidly, I don't even think he saw him coming). He didn't do anything to make Osman think a screen was coming or get Osman off balance. He also didn't read the coverage of the closest help defender either (Thompson) was providing. AG simply caught the pass and immediately went right as Birch trotted towards him.

For you to suggest that was a Gordon/Birch pick and roll action is just totally disingenuous.

Now if you want to keep discussing this, you can PM me and I'm happy to continue to conversation there because we've cluttered up enough of this thread going back and forth on this.

i agree with this. When i saw ag went into iso ball, i smh. Then i saw birch come but he didnt even used the pick lol

Yea, Knightro has been trying to excuse Gordon's decision making in that play and is now trying to deflect it to make it a discussion that it was an ISO not a PnR, as if that somehow makes Gordon's decision better.

[ezzzp]

I mean no disrespect in this, but you have no idea about what you are trying to talk about.

Birch is absolutely trying to set a screen, he's not rolling or popping, he's stepping up into Gordon's defender.

AND...if you interpret the play like you just did, that makes your ridiculous statement about Birch and your defense of Gordon that much worst. Anyone with understanding of bb principles knows better.

I can no longer take you seriously. You're wrong and in denial of piles of evidence against your very bad take and obvious agenda.

Buddy...

I 100% understand that Birch intended to get himself position himself to offer up a screen for Gordon.

But I'm telling you I've watched the play 50 times now. Gordon went straight into an ISO on Osman as soon as he caught the pass and before Birch ever got close enough to actually set a screen.

The whole concept of rejecting a ball screen is to manipulate the defender into thinking you're about to run them into a screen going one direction and get them leaning that direction before quickly changing and going the other way. Taking advantage

Aaron Gordon *did not* do this. He didn't look at or fake towards Birch (candidly, I don't even think he saw him coming). He didn't do anything to make Osman think a screen was coming or get Osman off balance. He also didn't read the coverage of the closest help defender either (Thompson) was providing. AG simply caught the pass and immediately went right as Birch trotted towards him.

For you to suggest that was a Gordon/Birch pick and roll action is just totally disingenuous.

Now if you want to keep discussing this, you can PM me and I'm happy to continue to conversation there because we've cluttered up enough of this thread going back and forth on this.

Read on Twitter

Video evidence of how poorly Gordon executed...plenty of time to swing to Fultz who is better driver, creator and mid range shooter, especially from that angle...looks off a wide open JI on corner 3 (aka 2nd most effective shot location in NBA) who had just sank two clutch shots...and jacks up a fadeaway midrange, a low value shot taken by a player who shoots that bad shoot at horrible efficiency.

[Knightro]

Yea, Knightro has been trying to excuse Gordon's decision making in that play and is now trying to deflect it to make it a discussion that it was an ISO not a PnR, as if that somehow makes Gordon's decision better.

We've argued about this quite a bit publicly and frankly it's clogging up a thread with a lot of needlessly petty back and forth.

As a mod, I think it would be best if we curtail that a little bit. So... if you want to continue the discussion of the play/plays in question, which I'm more than happy to do, let's take it to private message.

Thanks.