Aaron Gordon - How many games before we can call it a breakout?

[EAS Law]

Crazy thought, but why not try JI at C, or even SF? Forgive me if we have and I missed that, but I could see this experiment work.

It’s well-settled now that AG plays best at PF and like some have said, why do we feel the need to trade away talent on a team that is very thin on talent?

[VFX]

Crazy thought, but why not try JI at C, or even SF? Forgive me if we have and I missed that, but I could see this experiment work.

It’s well-settled now that AG plays best at PF and like some have said, why do we feel the need to trade away talent on a team that is very thin on talent?

I think a lot of people have suggested Orlando try JI at Center. The FO made it kind of difficult to justify by handing Vuc a $100m deal while continuing to develop the #6 pick of a very recent top heavy draft. We’ve seen Clifford start JI and AG next to Vuc. Let’s just say our offense hasn’t been out of the bottom 5 for most of that experiment.

To your second point, do you feel like the rest of the starting lineup is solid enough to keep AG despite these results? Maybe if he couldn’t net a return. If not, this is the roster moving forward give or take drafting 13-18 for the foreseeable future.

People will get excited about the possibilities of AG when he has a stretch of games like this, only to revert. I’m surprised people continue to let this routine inevitably cause disappointment.

[EAS Law]

Crazy thought, but why not try JI at C, or even SF? Forgive me if we have and I missed that, but I could see this experiment work.

It’s well-settled now that AG plays best at PF and like some have said, why do we feel the need to trade away talent on a team that is very thin on talent?

I think a lot of people have suggested Orlando try JI at Center. The FO made it kind of difficult to justify by handing Vuc a $100m deal while continuing to develop the #6 pick of a top heavy draft. We’ve seen Clifford start JI and AG next to Vuc. Let’s just say our offense hasn’t been out of the bottom 5 for most of that experiment.

Lol this is the problem when your FO decides that they’re only drafting 2 positions ever. We have some talent but it’s severely stacked in an unbalanced manner—now we have a guy in Vuc that has proven he CAN play at an All-Star level, AG who keeps teasing that same capability, JI who looks like he’s on that trajectory, and a wasted lotto pick in Bamba.

Almost anyone else on this team could leave or be traded and we’d feel minimal impact. If Ross was gone we’d be abysmal too. He has bailed us out of so many games.

Anyway, back to AG—yeah, I have been on his bandwagon for a while now, but he’s probably the guy who’s on the way out. I just pray we don’t lose him for a possible flash in the pan like Dinwiddie. We need to really upgrade a position if he’s being traded.

[Xatticus]

This talk of position is just irrelevant to me. What does Ennis do that Isaac can't? To me it really just comes down to how we run our offense.

[VFX]

This talk of position is just irrelevant to me. What does Ennis do that Isaac can't? To me it really just comes down to how we run our offense.

Not necessarily about “positions” per se. Bottom line is that AG,JI, and Vuc are in the starting lineup when healthy. AG still went 1-6 from 3 last night against a #20 ranked defense without their best player.

The rest of the league has no problem going small and relying on efficient perimeter play. Orlando isn’t built that way at all. Like clockwork, opinion on moving on from AG will wane when he has the occasional game. The offense has been run the same way for years due to the roster construction and what we continue to lack.

[dsg2021]

The argument in here might be too myopic, if you keep certain pieces like the duo of AG and JI and change the whole team around them over the next 2-3 years. Not only would they improve individually, the whole new system and very different players surrounding them would also put their games in drastically different lights.

This is why I am more reticent than most on AG trade ideas. I still think that whole new players around the very specific players of JI and Vooch would make them look insanely good. And AG would be a practical tie with Vooch there, too.

Spoiler:

Broadening the topic a little, I'd add that Fournier and Fultz are fine in a vacuum, too, but now we're just getting to the whole point of the team; a ton of B-grade pieces for a 7th-10th seed with a ceiling of a top 5 seed (maybe).

My best solution is to cut the cap over the years without trying to tank (in this new lotto system), which means even new contracts like Fultz and Bamba are under the 'scope, and go from there. I'll take a top 8 team if it wasn't mortgaged in cap, if the pieces were different and younger, if there were cap windows and a draft pick chest for when a 'Doncic/Tmac' opportunity arises. That's the kind of team that makes a real jump.

I think this newer FO is hot on JI and Fultz. In that case, it'd might take cutting both Fournier and Vooch into smaller cap hits at some point, but I'd really try to do just Fournier and pieces around it. The cap sheet doesn't look too far from ideal if you replace Fournier on the cheap and get creative on adding creators and scorers. Even teams have shown that while the return wouldn't be very good, you can absolutely fire-sell recently resigned players like Vooch and Fournier anytime, too. We'd be up in arms, but it's one of the most realistic ways to creep into the top 6. The big difference is where in previous years we would have had assumed that would make us attractive enough for some FA's and star-trades, we've learned in today's landscape, the vibe is it wouldn't work like that anymore; I would cite DEN's recent deadline deals as further proof). Shorter contracts in today's landscape. More trades in today's landscape. More draft-day trades in today's landscape. Change the team, adapt to the new-age of what is attractive, and thrive!

[KillMonger]

this is the thing for me though, if you're cool with him being like last season then that's fine but a lot of people were expecting a leap from last season.

Well, that's on you then. I wanted to see him build off of the playmaking better IQ version of himself that we saw last season and that's exactly what he's doing. He's playing at a very high level. The days of him turning into the next Kawai or Paul George are out the window so if that's what you are holding out for then you will continue to be disappointed. That doesn't mean he can't be a very valuable player for us though.

that's not what i expect out of a top 5 pick for me, if it's up to me and i'm GM i got to make a tough decision and from the rumors that was sprouting up here and there AG was the player that had the most interest. For me i'm looking at it from a AG vs Isaac situation, i got to make a choice and i'm choosing JI....they don't fit together well, especially when AG isn't a good shooter which is the real issue holding him back from taking a real leap but i'm not sure he'll ever be a reliable shooter. If i think AG can get us a star or an equivalent scorer you got to make a deal, especially if we're talking about him finally getting back to his last season form.

[zaymon]

I dont see it as a real breakout. Its not really development, he didnt aquire any new skills. Right now he is hot from distance, playing against bad defenders and making some of his weird low efficiency midrangers. What changed is opponent quality, position and his attitude. He is looking for extra pass, he fights on the boards, he showes he is not as bad help defender as i thought. I dont see his ceiling changing. He is still suspect ball handler, he rarely can make it to the rim. This type of players are not stars. I think he showed he can be a high level role player, thats valueable, especially his passing ( which i always praise).
I still think he is our best trade chip, he doesnt really fit with Fultz and Isaac ( while i think he really fits with Fournier and Vucevic). If i have to choose between him and JI i choose JI, mostly becouse AG is below average shooter and has awful touch around the rim.

[yoyojw17]

This talk of position is just irrelevant to me. What does Ennis do that Isaac can't? To me it really just comes down to how we run our offense.

PF or SF .... Aaron was playing bad.... Not because of the position .... Because he was just making the wrong choices. His increased performance is due to his focus and his focus of those efforts more than his position. If he keeps playing like that.... They will try it out when JI comes back.... And it would take a good deal in order to move him

[pepe1991]

Gordon splits in wins and loses tell story about Magic season and his performance.
Magic are flat out terrible against good teams , that's why we have negative record, but we are really good against bad teams. And his stats are now on a raise as we keep playing bad teams.
Magic played 7 games during his hot streak.
Lost two to to teams with positive record = his worst games.
He played well in others against teams like Pistons, Hawks (x2), Nets without 2 best players, T wovles without best player...

[Bensational]

Gordon splits in wins and loses tell story about Magic season and his performance.
Magic are flat out terrible against good teams , that's why we have negative record, but we are really good against bad teams. And his stats are now on a raise as we keep playing bad teams.
Magic played 7 games during his hot streak.
Lost two to to teams with positive record = his worst games.
He played well in others against teams like Pistons, Hawks (x2), Nets without 2 best players, T wovles without best player...

Playing poorly against good teams isn't a phenomenon strictly attached to Gordon. Against good teams for the season, in W's Vuc shoots 44% overall and 45% from 3, averaging 18.7ppg. In L's he shoots 40% overall and 26% from 3 (and he takes more of them), averaging 17.2ppg. His rebounds go from 13 to 10, assists from 4.6 to 3.4,

It's not as big a swing as Gordon's numbers, but it's a swing nonetheless. Corresponding with AG's improved February, Vuc is also taking fewer 3's and a larger portion of his shots from inside. But Vuc is also shooting worse from 3 than he does in losses, but we're still winning. I haven't checked Fournier's numbers, but he generally seems consistent every night this season.

So, agreed, Gordon looks like the determining factor of the team's success. When he's on, he brings the other pieces together. And lately he looks to be playing in a fashion that he will be able to be 'on' more often than 'off', if he plays within himself and prioritises passing and good shots.

[pepe1991]

Gordon splits in wins and loses tell story about Magic season and his performance.
Magic are flat out terrible against good teams , that's why we have negative record, but we are really good against bad teams. And his stats are now on a raise as we keep playing bad teams.
Magic played 7 games during his hot streak.
Lost two to to teams with positive record = his worst games.
He played well in others against teams like Pistons, Hawks (x2), Nets without 2 best players, T wovles without best player...

Playing poorly against good teams isn't a phenomenon strictly attached to Gordon. Against good teams for the season, in W's Vuc shoots 44% overall and 45% from 3, averaging 18.7ppg. In L's he shoots 40% overall and 26% from 3 (and he takes more of them), averaging 17.2ppg. His rebounds go from 13 to 10, assists from 4.6 to 3.4,

It's not as big a swing as Gordon's numbers, but it's a swing nonetheless. Corresponding with AG's improved February, Vuc is also taking fewer 3's and a larger portion of his shots from inside. But Vuc is also shooting worse from 3 than he does in losses, but we're still winning. I haven't checked Fournier's numbers, but he generally seems consistent every night this season.

So, agreed, Gordon looks like the determining factor of the team's success. When he's on, he brings the other pieces together. And lately he looks to be playing in a fashion that he will be able to be 'on' more often than 'off', if he plays within himself and prioritises passing and good shots.

It's expected to preform better in Ws.

Evan has solid splits in Ws and Ls. His Ls are only 2 ppg different from Ws and he still holds up solid 56% TS.

Vuc shoots 39% for 3 in Ws, 29% in Ls and that is most obvious difference and that dips his TS% and ppgs (3 points difference).

[yoyojw17]

Gordon splits in wins and loses tell story about Magic season and his performance.
Magic are flat out terrible against good teams , that's why we have negative record, but we are really good against bad teams. And his stats are now on a raise as we keep playing bad teams.
Magic played 7 games during his hot streak.
Lost two to to teams with positive record = his worst games.
He played well in others against teams like Pistons, Hawks (x2), Nets without 2 best players, T wovles without best player...

Playing poorly against good teams isn't a phenomenon strictly attached to Gordon. Against good teams for the season, in W's Vuc shoots 44% overall and 45% from 3, averaging 18.7ppg. In L's he shoots 40% overall and 26% from 3 (and he takes more of them), averaging 17.2ppg. His rebounds go from 13 to 10, assists from 4.6 to 3.4,

It's not as big a swing as Gordon's numbers, but it's a swing nonetheless. Corresponding with AG's improved February, Vuc is also taking fewer 3's and a larger portion of his shots from inside. But Vuc is also shooting worse from 3 than he does in losses, but we're still winning. I haven't checked Fournier's numbers, but he generally seems consistent every night this season.

So, agreed, Gordon looks like the determining factor of the team's success. When he's on, he brings the other pieces together. And lately he looks to be playing in a fashion that he will be able to be 'on' more often than 'off', if he plays within himself and prioritises passing and good shots.

But it's not like he's playing the same way before the ASG as he is now. He has not shown this level of decision making as consistently all season. It's like looking at a different player in many ways. and yes.... his success definitely helps us immensely. especially when he's garnering rebounds, making timely passes and not settling for double crossover step back 3's. Instead of 80% careless and 20% controlled.... he's essentially flipped those numbers.... and THAT to me is where he is succeeding.

[fendilim]

Instincts jinxing AG again

[Rainwater]

Plays well against some trash *** teams and suddenly it's a break out. Lol at this tread. AG can retire today and some people will still be waiting for him to break out.

[JF5]

You jinx'd him!

Instinct in a troll... You'll only hear from him 2-4 times a season when AG has a solid stretch then he leaves. He's done that the last 3 seasons and that really isn't a good sign given he'd probably be here a lot more consistently if AG was playing great year round.

[Rainwater]

You jinx'd him!

Instinct in a troll... You'll only hear from him 2-4 times a season when AG has a solid stretch then he leaves. He's done that the last 3 seasons and that really isn't a good sign given he'd probably be here a lot more consistently if AG was playing great year round.

Truth. Not around when AG plays poorly but expect an Instinct post when AG does play well. But that explains why he hasn't been around all that much, lol.

[Xatticus]

You jinx'd him!

Instinct in a troll... You'll only hear from him 2-4 times a season when AG has a solid stretch then he leaves. He's done that the last 3 seasons and that really isn't a good sign given he'd probably be here a lot more consistently if AG was playing great year round.

Truth. Not around when AG plays poorly but expect an Instinct post when AG does play well. But that explains why he hasn't been around all that much, lol.

You are the other side of the same coin.

[Rainwater]

You jinx'd him!

Instinct in a troll... You'll only hear from him 2-4 times a season when AG has a solid stretch then he leaves. He's done that the last 3 seasons and that really isn't a good sign given he'd probably be here a lot more consistently if AG was playing great year round.

Truth. Not around when AG plays poorly but expect an Instinct post when AG does play well. But that explains why he hasn't been around all that much, lol.

You are the other side of the same coin.

It would be if I thought that one, AG was complete trash as a player, which I don't. In fact, and I have said this multiple times, AG is an amazing role player. I just wish people viewed him as they view Evan and Vuc; good players but not great players. And to be honest it's not AG that bothers but maybe his fans. Every season his fans set these unrealistic expectations for AG and when he doesn't reach them they say "What is wrong with AG?" When he has basically been the same player for years with minor improvements.

And two, an equivalent post to Instinct's is me starting a whole new tread saying AG is complete trash after he just played 4 bad games. I would never do such a thing. Again, AG is good but it's the unearned, unseen hype that his fans so badly want to bestow on the guy that is the problem. You can't tell me calling a 4 game stretch a breakout after said player had played poorly for the previous 40 plus is not a bit premature? Lol.