If WeHam run it back - this may be why...

[VFX]

It works, it's just limited because none have the ceiling to carry this team beyond the tough teams. Changing the dynamic to be a Fultz/(new SG) lead offense changes the team entirely even if it has 2-3 recurring pieces. But Isaac won't be there so by default we could have 2 new faces to the starting offense and a different version of Fultz. When Isaac returns and proves he can stick around then we re-evaluate.

If you want to insist of blow-it-up or bust then you're shutting out the possibility for meaningful change just because it keeps a couple of players.

I’m not ruling out the possibility of a scenario where Isaac/AG/ and Fultz OR Vuc/Isaac/ Fultz are still serving as this teams core. I think what it ultimately comes down to are two things -

1- AG and Vuc do not work together. I’m done arguing why. I’ve been saying it for years. If people need a refresher, they can go back a few hundred pages and figure it out.

2- IF we keep AG and Isaac together they need to acquire an elite level scorer. Easier said than done obviously, but if they can’t find that player sooner than later they need to move AG. Again, not going to rehash this argument because I feel like this is obvious at this point.

Fournier should be moved regardless. If not because of his salary, then because he isn’t providing what we would desperately need in the aforementioned rotational scenario.

Moving 2 players isn’t “blowing it up” per se. It might feel that way to certain posters that have invested all of their fandom into a specific player. I don’t think there is a downside at this point.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again.... the nba is about talent. If you do not have otherworldly talent, then you must have an identity with exceptional team cohesion. Orlando currently has neither of those things. “Running it back” is not a good option in a year without Isaac.

You're missing out on a few pretty major things here:

1) Vuc and Gordon do work. They were a +1.1 Netrtg, which was our only high volume 2 man lineup. Vuc + Isaac were actually a negative, and Gordon + Isaac were worse than that. So you can say "I'm done arguing why", but the numbers don't support whatever it is you have argued before.

2) You seem to be making the mistake of assuming Isaac will return and is a certain core piece for the future. I'd wait until he steps foot on a court again in another year before even considering that. Isaac is a complete non-factor at this point, and thinking otherwise could prove to be a franchise crippling outlook.

So now that we know Vuc and Gordon do work together, what's the problem with them supporting a new perimeter of Okeke/Rookie/Fultz? You don't think Fultz and co deserve a chance to prove whether or not they can come close to franchise leading levels?

Fine. Let’s rehash the same argument for the thousandth time...

First, AG isn’t as effective in a half court scenario on offense. We know this. AG in an open court, with multiple capable shooters, is a better dynamic. That is the opposite of what this team is. Vuc is the highest usg player and Clifford loves him. You do the math.

Secondly, you simply can’t have 4/5 players on the court that are incapable of hitting shots or creating real offense. Not only that, but you cannot be a bottom 10 offense with the amount of salary we have tied up into our starters. You’re a AG Stan, so I get it. You also have to be realistic about the upside of this roster in its current state. You either have to be super idealistic about Okeke and #15 picking up that slack, or you are wearing AG fan blinders.

I’m not sold 100% on Isaac either, but this FO isn’t giving up on him and have already made statements about how he isn’t on the table. You can believe whatever you want, but he’s definitely a core piece of this roster whether we like it or not. So no, I’m not “making a mistake” about Isaac being a part of the future of this team. If anything I’m being realistic about this FO continuing to invest in one of their only good decisions.

The point is that this organization needs to land a franchise changing talent. If not, they need to make a change, to the already expensive roster, in order to put themselves in that opportunistic situation.

The fact that I have to explain this for the 4th- 5th season in a row is pretty astounding.

[MagicFan4Lyfe]

I’m not ruling out the possibility of a scenario where Isaac/AG/ and Fultz OR Vuc/Isaac/ Fultz are still serving as this teams core. I think what it ultimately comes down to are two things -

1- AG and Vuc do not work together. I’m done arguing why. I’ve been saying it for years. If people need a refresher, they can go back a few hundred pages and figure it out.

2- IF we keep AG and Isaac together they need to acquire an elite level scorer. Easier said than done obviously, but if they can’t find that player sooner than later they need to move AG. Again, not going to rehash this argument because I feel like this is obvious at this point.

Fournier should be moved regardless. If not because of his salary, then because he isn’t providing what we would desperately need in the aforementioned rotational scenario.

Moving 2 players isn’t “blowing it up” per se. It might feel that way to certain posters that have invested all of their fandom into a specific player. I don’t think there is a downside at this point.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again.... the nba is about talent. If you do not have otherworldly talent, then you must have an identity with exceptional team cohesion. Orlando currently has neither of those things. “Running it back” is not a good option in a year without Isaac.

You're missing out on a few pretty major things here:

1) Vuc and Gordon do work. They were a +1.1 Netrtg, which was our only high volume 2 man lineup. Vuc + Isaac were actually a negative, and Gordon + Isaac were worse than that. So you can say "I'm done arguing why", but the numbers don't support whatever it is you have argued before.

2) You seem to be making the mistake of assuming Isaac will return and is a certain core piece for the future. I'd wait until he steps foot on a court again in another year before even considering that. Isaac is a complete non-factor at this point, and thinking otherwise could prove to be a franchise crippling outlook.

So now that we know Vuc and Gordon do work together, what's the problem with them supporting a new perimeter of Okeke/Rookie/Fultz? You don't think Fultz and co deserve a chance to prove whether or not they can come close to franchise leading levels?

Fine. Let’s rehash the same argument for the thousandth time...

First, AG isn’t as effective in a half court scenario on offense. We know this. AG in an open court, with multiple capable shooters, is a better dynamic. That is the opposite of what this team is. Vuc is the highest usg player and Clifford loves him. You do the math.

Secondly, you simply can’t have 4/5 players on the court that are incapable of hitting shots or creating real offense. Not only that, but you cannot be a bottom 10 offense with the amount of salary we have tied up into our starters. You’re a AG Stan, so I get it. You also have to be realistic about the upside of this roster in its current state. You either have to be super idealistic about Okeke and #15 picking up that slack, or you are wearing AG fan blinders.

I’m not sold 100% on Isaac either, but this FO isn’t giving up on him and have already made statements about how he isn’t on the table. You can believe whatever you want, but he’s definitely a core piece of this roster whether

we like it or not. So no, I’m not “making a mistake” about Isaac being a part of the future of this team. If anything I’m being realistic about this FO continuing to invest in one of their only good decisions.

The point is that this organization needs to land a franchise changing talent. If not, they need to make a change, to the already expensive roster, in order to put themselves in that opportunistic situation.

The fact that I have to explain this for the 4th- 5th season in a row is pretty astounding.

That is because most Magic fans have forgotten what real winning feels like and think first round exits are NBA Champions!

[Bensational]

Spoiler:

I’m not ruling out the possibility of a scenario where Isaac/AG/ and Fultz OR Vuc/Isaac/ Fultz are still serving as this teams core. I think what it ultimately comes down to are two things -

1- AG and Vuc do not work together. I’m done arguing why. I’ve been saying it for years. If people need a refresher, they can go back a few hundred pages and figure it out.

2- IF we keep AG and Isaac together they need to acquire an elite level scorer. Easier said than done obviously, but if they can’t find that player sooner than later they need to move AG. Again, not going to rehash this argument because I feel like this is obvious at this point.

Fournier should be moved regardless. If not because of his salary, then because he isn’t providing what we would desperately need in the aforementioned rotational scenario.

Moving 2 players isn’t “blowing it up” per se. It might feel that way to certain posters that have invested all of their fandom into a specific player. I don’t think there is a downside at this point.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again.... the nba is about talent. If you do not have otherworldly talent, then you must have an identity with exceptional team cohesion. Orlando currently has neither of those things. “Running it back” is not a good option in a year without Isaac.

You're missing out on a few pretty major things here:

1) Vuc and Gordon do work. They were a +1.1 Netrtg, which was our only high volume 2 man lineup. Vuc + Isaac were actually a negative, and Gordon + Isaac were worse than that. So you can say "I'm done arguing why", but the numbers don't support whatever it is you have argued before.

2) You seem to be making the mistake of assuming Isaac will return and is a certain core piece for the future. I'd wait until he steps foot on a court again in another year before even considering that. Isaac is a complete non-factor at this point, and thinking otherwise could prove to be a franchise crippling outlook.

So now that we know Vuc and Gordon do work together, what's the problem with them supporting a new perimeter of Okeke/Rookie/Fultz? You don't think Fultz and co deserve a chance to prove whether or not they can come close to franchise leading levels?

Fine. Let’s rehash the same argument for the thousandth time...

First, AG isn’t as effective in a half court scenario on offense. We know this. AG in an open court, with multiple capable shooters, is a better dynamic. That is the opposite of what this team is. Vuc is the highest usg player and Clifford loves him. You do the math.

Secondly, you simply can’t have 4/5 players on the court that are incapable of hitting shots or creating real offense. Not only that, but you cannot be a bottom 10 offense with the amount of salary we have tied up into our starters. You’re a AG Stan, so I get it. You also have to be realistic about the upside of this roster in its current state. You either have to be super idealistic about Okeke and #15 picking up that slack, or you are wearing AG fan blinders.

Come on man... You're being intentionally obtuse, or ignorant to AG's abilities and even the growth he showed throughout the past season. As an alternating high/low facilitator like Vuc, he can be impactful in a halfcourt offense.

Most of all, you've come at this without considering the original premise - Vuc and AG would be supporting a new offense lead by Fultz and/or the new SG. Fultz always pushes the pace - which benefits Gordon and the wings, and still allows Vuc to follow as a trailing 3. In the half court, we maximise having a team of good passers and feature good ball movement. Fultz + new SG split the PnR duties.

We've already had a taste of that team this season when Fournier went down, with Ennis and Iwundu. Okeke and Haliburton/Hayes might hold the edge that's needed, you never know.

I’m not sold 100% on Isaac either, but this FO isn’t giving up on him and have already made statements about how he isn’t on the table. You can believe whatever you want, but he’s definitely a core piece of this roster whether we like it or not. So no, I’m not “making a mistake” about Isaac being a part of the future of this team. If anything I’m being realistic about this FO continuing to invest in one of their only good decisions.

The point is that this organization needs to land a franchise changing talent. If not, they need to make a change, to the already expensive roster, in order to put themselves in that opportunistic situation.

The fact that I have to explain this for the 4th- 5th season in a row is pretty astounding.

Oh no, I'm aware that the team is committed to Isaac. I also don't think they would to consider his glass knees as anything reliable, either. Isaac's name is written in pencil these days. They're not making moves to accomodate him until he's back on the court and demands accomodation. Anyone considering otherwise is taking a risky gamble.

That doesn't make Gordon a keeper, it just means Isaac isn't presently a motivating factor in trading him.

Once again, what problem would you have with seeing a Fultz/Hayes or Fultz/Haliburton backcourt alongside Okeke/Gordon/Vuc next season? Doesn't it give you everything you want, with 2 new faces, and focusing predominantly on the development of our best prospects?

[VFX]

Spoiler:

You're missing out on a few pretty major things here:

1) Vuc and Gordon do work. They were a +1.1 Netrtg, which was our only high volume 2 man lineup. Vuc + Isaac were actually a negative, and Gordon + Isaac were worse than that. So you can say "I'm done arguing why", but the numbers don't support whatever it is you have argued before.

2) You seem to be making the mistake of assuming Isaac will return and is a certain core piece for the future. I'd wait until he steps foot on a court again in another year before even considering that. Isaac is a complete non-factor at this point, and thinking otherwise could prove to be a franchise crippling outlook.

So now that we know Vuc and Gordon do work together, what's the problem with them supporting a new perimeter of Okeke/Rookie/Fultz? You don't think Fultz and co deserve a chance to prove whether or not they can come close to franchise leading levels?

Fine. Let’s rehash the same argument for the thousandth time...

First, AG isn’t as effective in a half court scenario on offense. We know this. AG in an open court, with multiple capable shooters, is a better dynamic. That is the opposite of what this team is. Vuc is the highest usg player and Clifford loves him. You do the math.

Secondly, you simply can’t have 4/5 players on the court that are incapable of hitting shots or creating real offense. Not only that, but you cannot be a bottom 10 offense with the amount of salary we have tied up into our starters. You’re a AG Stan, so I get it. You also have to be realistic about the upside of this roster in its current state. You either have to be super idealistic about Okeke and #15 picking up that slack, or you are wearing AG fan blinders.

Come on man... You're being intentionally obtuse, or ignorant to AG's abilities and even the growth he showed throughout the past season. As an alternating high/low facilitator like Vuc, he can be impactful in a halfcourt offense.

Most of all, you've come at this without considering the original premise - Vuc and AG would be supporting a new offense lead by Fultz and/or the new SG. Fultz always pushes the pace - which benefits Gordon and the wings, and still allows Vuc to follow as a trailing 3. In the half court, we maximise having a team of good passers and feature good ball movement. Fultz + new SG split the PnR duties.

We've already had a taste of that team this season when Fournier went down, with Ennis and Iwundu. Okeke and Haliburton/Hayes might hold the edge that's needed, you never know.

I’m not sold 100% on Isaac either, but this FO isn’t giving up on him and have already made statements about how he isn’t on the table. You can believe whatever you want, but he’s definitely a core piece of this roster whether we like it or not. So no, I’m not “making a mistake” about Isaac being a part of the future of this team. If anything I’m being realistic about this FO continuing to invest in one of their only good decisions.

The point is that this organization needs to land a franchise changing talent. If not, they need to make a change, to the already expensive roster, in order to put themselves in that opportunistic situation.

The fact that I have to explain this for the 4th- 5th season in a row is pretty astounding.

Oh no, I'm aware that the team is committed to Isaac. I also don't think they would to consider his glass knees as anything reliable, either. Isaac's name is written in pencil these days. They're not making moves to accomodate him until he's back on the court and demands accomodation. Anyone considering otherwise is taking a risky gamble.

That doesn't make Gordon a keeper, it just means Isaac isn't presently a motivating factor in trading him.

Once again, what problem would you have with seeing a Fultz/Hayes or Fultz/Haliburton backcourt alongside Okeke/Gordon/Vuc next season? Doesn't it give you everything you want, with 2 new faces, and focusing predominantly on the development of our best prospects?

I’ve been extremely consistent on AG, his capabilities, and his limitations. I even admitted I was impressed in his series against Toronto when Vuc went missing. Wasn’t surprised he played better without him running the show. AG is a system player that has been stuck in a situation that hasn’t been ideal for his game. I haven’t budged on that notion for years. I still don’t buy it.

These expectations come down to the salary cap and being realistic about these prospects.

The amount of salary dumped into AG/Fournier/Vuc is concerning for a team that struggles like crazy offensively. Now, if you believe Okeke, #15, and Fultz are the answer, then so be it. Color me skeptical.

This is why Orlando needs to nail this pick. Even in my ideal draft scenario of somehow landing Hayes or Deni, I’m not sure what the ceiling becomes. Even then, I’m not penciling this roster into a real playoff run unless they make some major changes. Ditching Fournier is a good start but it isn’t enough. More change need to be made to move the needle. I won’t lose sleep over either AG or Vuc being moved. In fact, I welcome it.

One of us is being realistic.

[pepe1991]

You don't need to look up stats, the eye test alone is enough to prove how much of a scrub Evan Fournier is. There is absolutely no reason to waste time beating around the bush about just how useless of a player he is to this roster, especially a roster that suffers from a really massive lack of shooting in the first place.

This was a man who was brought in and paid, lucratively I might add, to be the big shot maker for this team. This guy is suppose to be your elite closer, he is suppose to be the guy you give the ball to in the fourth, and just let him do his magic. It appalls me to no end that people defend him after his horrendous play in the playoffs.

He was abysmal, he was missing wide open shots, and couldn't hit the broad side of the barn in the moment that he was needed to the most. He was found utterly lacking in the moments that mattered the most and at times people would just leave him undefended because they would know he would miss. People were blowing by him on defense, because not only is he a below average defender, but his defense just seems to get worse as his shot doesn't go in the hoop. He was turning over the ball, looking lethargic, and just absolutely seemed allergic to effort out on the court.

He is a straight up waste of cap space and in my mind, I'm absolutely glad he is expiring because at least he has some value as 17 million expiring cap relief or as a 17 million bartering chip in some kind of trade. The guy has no value on our court as a player or even as a body.

A while ago when he was brought into the fold, the Magic did so because they believed he could be their shot maker. They knew his weaknesses and thought his strengths outweighed them, but in that time the guy has revealed that not only are his weaknesses not outweighed by his strengths, but even his strengths are waning. He looks like an old man playing with his kids in the front yard on a Saturday morning to pass time. He claims he still has it with every shot he makes, but people know he doesn't. People know he is a guy who was great on a bad team, but as this team has progressed, and it has to some extent, that great player on a bad team has turned into a bad player on a middling team.

And that is what the Magic will continue to be with Fournier on roster, middling. If the front office thinks we can get by with streaky shooting on the bench and negligible defense in the starting line up at the two, then clearly they aren't paying attention to the Hawks, the Cavaliers, and the Wizards who will all be better next year and have much more complete looking rosters than ours.

We can live with Ross, in fact I rather like him as a player, and it is clear he wants to be here in Orlando or he wouldn't have signed here last year. But we can't live with Fournier. We need an upgrade at the 2, because otherwise, you might as well get used to picking 6 to 8 in the draft every year for the next few years and missing out on every franchise deciding player.

Congratulation, straight hate, zero good points, not a single thing comes with valid argument, almost all points pulled from A hole , every single word being 100% subjective, no contxt.


Let's see why Evan is payed as much as he is
1) points per game , 18 ppg
2) secundary playmaking 3,2
3) 40% for 3
4) TS% , only shooting above league average on whole damn team
5) eFG% once again,only shooting above league's average on whole team
6) points added by field goal taken. Evan

Let's talk about this for a second. Evan's shots have index of additional value of +58. Magic second best starter, Jonathan Isaac, adds - 7 extra points ( this is minus seven!).
Evan shots are by far most valuable shots by any Magic player by such a wide margin that him taking terrible shots still ends up being as effective, if not more effective than literally anybody else taking any shots.


7) spacing, corner 3s. Evan shoots 53% of corner 3s, Ross and Isaac are also at solid clip, others are abysml

8) even a fast look at his RPM it's clear he is starting gurad in NBA

9) RAPTOR data, probably most advanced aveliable cumulative performance statistiacl out there, once again proved the same, Evan is the best Magic offensive player and one of few players with positive overall impact


For the end there is graph where Evan belongs in nba among shooting guard, definition of average player.
Sadly, Magic on most other positions don't have average players, but below average ones




Overall when you put everything on table you get that Evan is no star, and should be more catch&shoot, less - dribble to oblivion player. However with his gravity and shooting alone, he brings value.

e Orlando lineup would see the team plummet from their current standing as an insipid three-point shooting team (25th league-wide on 34.1%) to truly awful (32.4%, a figure which would be good for dead last). In fact, one would have to go back five years to find a team that shot worse than the hypothetically Fournier-less Magic (the 2015-16 Lakers). In a rapidly evolving game he’s the only thing keeping the team from resembling a relic of a bygone era.

Fournier’s three-point shooting is proven even more valuable when you consider it alongside some of his marksmen contemporaries. Pulling his contributions drops Orlando’s long-range field goal percentage to a woebegone 32.4%, a decline of 1.7 percentage points that is unmatched across the league by anyone. It doesn’t matter which sniper you remove from their respective team’s data — not George Hill, not JJ Redick, not even the scarily voluminous and accurate Duncan Robinson — no absence of a single player has as significant an impact on their team’s overall shooting figures as Fournier.

This is something most fans don't understand about value of shooter. In general this board still lives in 1990s and thinks shooting is aftertought, not focal point of every offense. Evan is only Magic starter that is plus shooter, and removing him for below average one, Magic would be deep lottery team because most teams would just zone up on guys like Isaac, Vuc, Gordon , Fultz and dared them to shoot "open" 3s, when they really can't hit them at respectful rate.

[Bensational]

Spoiler:

Fine. Let’s rehash the same argument for the thousandth time...

First, AG isn’t as effective in a half court scenario on offense. We know this. AG in an open court, with multiple capable shooters, is a better dynamic. That is the opposite of what this team is. Vuc is the highest usg player and Clifford loves him. You do the math.

Secondly, you simply can’t have 4/5 players on the court that are incapable of hitting shots or creating real offense. Not only that, but you cannot be a bottom 10 offense with the amount of salary we have tied up into our starters. You’re a AG Stan, so I get it. You also have to be realistic about the upside of this roster in its current state. You either have to be super idealistic about Okeke and #15 picking up that slack, or you are wearing AG fan blinders.

Come on man... You're being intentionally obtuse, or ignorant to AG's abilities and even the growth he showed throughout the past season. As an alternating high/low facilitator like Vuc, he can be impactful in a halfcourt offense.

Most of all, you've come at this without considering the original premise - Vuc and AG would be supporting a new offense lead by Fultz and/or the new SG. Fultz always pushes the pace - which benefits Gordon and the wings, and still allows Vuc to follow as a trailing 3. In the half court, we maximise having a team of good passers and feature good ball movement. Fultz + new SG split the PnR duties.

We've already had a taste of that team this season when Fournier went down, with Ennis and Iwundu. Okeke and Haliburton/Hayes might hold the edge that's needed, you never know.

I’m not sold 100% on Isaac either, but this FO isn’t giving up on him and have already made statements about how he isn’t on the table. You can believe whatever you want, but he’s definitely a core piece of this roster whether we like it or not. So no, I’m not “making a mistake” about Isaac being a part of the future of this team. If anything I’m being realistic about this FO continuing to invest in one of their only good decisions.

The point is that this organization needs to land a franchise changing talent. If not, they need to make a change, to the already expensive roster, in order to put themselves in that opportunistic situation.

The fact that I have to explain this for the 4th- 5th season in a row is pretty astounding.

Oh no, I'm aware that the team is committed to Isaac. I also don't think they would to consider his glass knees as anything reliable, either. Isaac's name is written in pencil these days. They're not making moves to accomodate him until he's back on the court and demands accomodation. Anyone considering otherwise is taking a risky gamble.

That doesn't make Gordon a keeper, it just means Isaac isn't presently a motivating factor in trading him.

Once again, what problem would you have with seeing a Fultz/Hayes or Fultz/Haliburton backcourt alongside Okeke/Gordon/Vuc next season? Doesn't it give you everything you want, with 2 new faces, and focusing predominantly on the development of our best prospects?

I’ve been extremely consistent on AG, his capabilities, and his limitations. I even admitted I was impressed in his series against Toronto when Vuc went missing. Wasn’t surprised he played better without him running the show. AG is a system player that has been stuck in a situation that hasn’t been ideal for his game. I haven’t budged on that notion for years. I still don’t buy it.

These expectations come down to the salary cap and being realistic about these prospects.

The amount of salary dumped into AG/Fournier/Vuc is concerning for a team that struggles like crazy offensively. Now, if you believe Okeke, #15, and Fultz are the answer, then so be it. Color me skeptical.

This is why Orlando needs to nail this pick. Even in my ideal draft scenario of somehow landing Hayes or Deni, I’m not sure what the ceiling becomes. Even then, I’m not penciling this roster into a real playoff run unless they make some major changes. Ditching Fournier is a good start but it isn’t enough. More change need to be made to move the needle. I won’t lose sleep over either AG or Vuc being moved. In fact, I welcome it.

One of us is being realistic.

Realistic in what regards? I'm the one positing reasons to cushion the blow when WeHam most likely run it back. You're the one insisting you won't be happy until it's all blown up?

I don't have an inflated opinion of the ceiling of this team. I don't see Fultz/Hayes/Haliburton necessarily as foundational pieces, but possibly pieces that help us land that guy, or who fit in nicely around him. I'd also prefer to give Gordon at least another half season to see if he can consistently play like he did post ASB, because it's better for his value. Zach Lowe seems to think teams are down on him.

Imagine waiting until the trade deadline, the Warriors are on form except Wiggins just isn't enough of an edge. Gordon + Fournier for Wiggins might be the kind of package and timing that convinces them to give up that Minnesota pick. Presently, all you're getting back is the #2 pick in a draft where we already have the spot lottery teams want to be in.

Or even just having Vuc/Gordon/Okeke/(Hal/Hay)/Fultz playing in top form so we have a variety of packages to shop for potentially available pieces.

[pepe1991]

As far as "running back goes" , Magic will add 2 rookies to already existing roster, along with major changes off bench. So roster won't be same regardless.

Not just that, Magic even starting 5 won't be the same, Isaac is out, Ennins is probably leaving, i don't see them keeping MCW nor Augustin.

Magic will still have pretty young roster all things considered

2020pick- 20 years old
Fultz -22
Okeke -22
Isaac (out) -23/24
Bamba- 22/23
2020 second round pick- 20-21 y.o.
Frazier ( assuming his TO is picked) 23/24

On whole Magic roster and active rotation not a single player will be older than 30. Vuc just turned 30, so did Aminu, Ross is 29, Evan 28, Gordon 25.


Also as far as "dumping salary on Evan and Gordon for offense" ,it's interesting, but Markelle Futz will "only " make $5-6 M less than them, and pretty much same money as Ross, because he is former 1# pick, his salary for rookie contract is inflated as hell.

Also, regarding salary, Magic now have $7,3M of dead cap with Isaac already gone for a year.
It will be interesting to see what Magic will do with exstensions with Isaac and Fultz. Their QO combine for massive $26M, but it's more objective to see them being re-signed.

If Magic really want play wait game for decreased value of lottery picks, them waiting for a month into a season and then pulling trade for 2020 first and second overall pick ( already drafted) is smarter. picks without attachment of name who they represent always have more value than XY young player(s).

[jezzerinho]

For a thread with a lot of arguing on it, there's a surprising amount of consensus at the heart of it.

Fournier is a talented player and good shooter whose skillset should give him an above average result as a C&S type, maybe 6th man who runs the bench unit.

Fournier is not talented enough to play the role he's been given at Orlando of initiator and P&R tandem player with Vuc. But we don't have a PG, SG or SF on the roster who can do better.

He's just statistically had a very good year and the year before was FIBA MVP.

He's not bad. He's just not good enough for the role we need him for (which is above his paygrade).

Then you get into questions of fit with other players. But frankly, there are so many bad fit combos on the Magic that the Fournier-plus-X ones can just join a long queue.

The truth is, there are no objectively BAD players in the top 7 or 8 on the rotation. There just aren't anyreally great players and there are lots of bad combinations of players a lots of ill-fitting roles because of that.

[VFX]

Come on man... You're being intentionally obtuse, or ignorant to AG's abilities and even the growth he showed throughout the past season. As an alternating high/low facilitator like Vuc, he can be impactful in a halfcourt offense.

Most of all, you've come at this without considering the original premise - Vuc and AG would be supporting a new offense lead by Fultz and/or the new SG. Fultz always pushes the pace - which benefits Gordon and the wings, and still allows Vuc to follow as a trailing 3. In the half court, we maximise having a team of good passers and feature good ball movement. Fultz + new SG split the PnR duties.

We've already had a taste of that team this season when Fournier went down, with Ennis and Iwundu. Okeke and Haliburton/Hayes might hold the edge that's needed, you never know.





Oh no, I'm aware that the team is committed to Isaac. I also don't think they would to consider his glass knees as anything reliable, either. Isaac's name is written in pencil these days. They're not making moves to accomodate him until he's back on the court and demands accomodation. Anyone considering otherwise is taking a risky gamble.

That doesn't make Gordon a keeper, it just means Isaac isn't presently a motivating factor in trading him.

Once again, what problem would you have with seeing a Fultz/Hayes or Fultz/Haliburton backcourt alongside Okeke/Gordon/Vuc next season? Doesn't it give you everything you want, with 2 new faces, and focusing predominantly on the development of our best prospects?

I’ve been extremely consistent on AG, his capabilities, and his limitations. I even admitted I was impressed in his series against Toronto when Vuc went missing. Wasn’t surprised he played better without him running the show. AG is a system player that has been stuck in a situation that hasn’t been ideal for his game. I haven’t budged on that notion for years. I still don’t buy it.

These expectations come down to the salary cap and being realistic about these prospects.

The amount of salary dumped into AG/Fournier/Vuc is concerning for a team that struggles like crazy offensively. Now, if you believe Okeke, #15, and Fultz are the answer, then so be it. Color me skeptical.

This is why Orlando needs to nail this pick. Even in my ideal draft scenario of somehow landing Hayes or Deni, I’m not sure what the ceiling becomes. Even then, I’m not penciling this roster into a real playoff run unless they make some major changes. Ditching Fournier is a good start but it isn’t enough. More change need to be made to move the needle. I won’t lose sleep over either AG or Vuc being moved. In fact, I welcome it.

One of us is being realistic.

Realistic in what regards? I'm the one positing reasons to cushion the blow when WeHam most likely run it back. You're the one insisting you won't be happy until it's all blown up?

I don't have an inflated opinion of the ceiling of this team. I don't see Fultz/Hayes/Haliburton necessarily as foundational pieces, but possibly pieces that help us land that guy, or who fit in nicely around him. I'd also prefer to give Gordon at least another half season to see if he can consistently play like he did post ASB, because it's better for his value. Zach Lowe seems to think teams are down on him.

Imagine waiting until the trade deadline, the Warriors are on form except Wiggins just isn't enough of an edge. Gordon + Fournier for Wiggins might be the kind of package and timing that convinces them to give up that Minnesota pick. Presently, all you're getting back is the #2 pick in a draft where we already have the spot lottery teams want to be in.

Or even just having Vuc/Gordon/Okeke/(Hal/Hay)/Fultz playing in top form so we have a variety of packages to shop for potentially available pieces.

Realistic as in... I know this is delaying the inevitable until a real change is made to Hennigan’s core. Trading Fournier and one of AG/Vuc isn’t “blowing it up”. It’s called finally moving on from a combination of players that have proven that they can’t win together even in their best years.

Orlando needs to land a star. Instead, the main suggestion is to focus rearranging the chairs on the titanic for the hundredth time since summer 2012. Move on...

Oh really? So just keep AG long enough until his value increases? That’s it? I can already see it “why trade him when he’s playing at his best now?” Is I’m sure what you’d say if anyone mentioned trading him if he ever did reach that level again.

So even in that ideal lineup scenario you are projecting that Okeke is good enough to start, and Orlando “Magically” moves up enough to select one of two currently out of draft range players. I guess even that doesn’t seem like a minor stretch to you and that’s fine. I’m not even saying that I’d hate it at all...I’d still rather just move on from a Hennigan’s core for once this decade.

[VFX]

On whole Magic roster and active rotation not a single player will be older than 30.

What’s your point? Do we need more data on why the same combination of sub - 30 players that Hennigan acquired aren’t winning?

[ARandomStranger]

I really don't want to do this Pepe, mainly because I respect the hell out of your analytical takes, and view you as a quality contributed most of the time. Most of the time being the key turn of phrase in this particular moment.

You're right to talk about the quality of play that Evan shows in the regular season and I will agree with you he needs to be more of a catch and shoot, roll to the basket sort of guy in certain plays when he can do it. I think he could get to the line more as well, but that is neither here nor there.

My argument doesn't hinge on regular season statistics.

If I were here touting how bad Evan is in the regular season that would have given some validity to your argument, but let's be real here. The regular season is not what I am talking about. There are plenty of guys who put up absurd numbers and look like monsters in the regular season and then look like kittens in a cardboard box in the playoffs.

This is a playoff discussion for me and to be real with you Evan has been a dumpster fire in Orlando when it comes to offense when it matters most.

47 percent shooting becomes 35 percent shooting. 40 percent from three becomes 35 percent, while also taking an absurd amount of shots. Points per game drops by five points to 13.5. I could go on and on about this as all of his stats take a nose dive as soon as he touches meaningful minutes on a playoff basketball court.

I gave him the benefit of the doubt last year in the playoffs as it was his real first experience there. Much like Vuc. But this year? Kid gloves were off, it was time to show why he was making 17 million. And he delivered a lukewarm performance that was not acceptable for a 17 million a year player. There are cheaper players who were performing better than him and providing more than him on defense.

You can stand on this hill waving the Fournier flag, but I will not be joining you in that regard because all Fournier is, is a regular season stud, but a playoff dud.

And that is why he has to be moved on from for a 2 that can bring it in the playoffs and not just sputter out in the playoffs like he has the last two seasons.

[pepe1991]

I really don't want to do this Pepe, mainly because I respect the hell out of your analytical takes, and view you as a quality contributed most of the time. Most of the time being the key turn of phrase in this particular moment.

You're right to talk about the quality of play that Evan shows in the regular season and I will agree with you he needs to be more of a catch and shoot, roll to the basket sort of guy in certain plays when he can do it. I think he could get to the line more as well, but that is neither here nor there.

My argument doesn't hinge on regular season statistics.

If I were here touting how bad Evan is in the

regular season that would have given some validity to your argument, but let's be real here. The regular season is not what I am talking about. There are plenty of guys who put up absurd numbers and look like monsters in the regular season and then look like kittens in a cardboard box in the playoffs.

This is a playoff discussion for me and to be real with you Evan has been a dumpster fire in Orlando when it comes to offense when it matters most.

47 percent shooting becomes 35 percent shooting. 40 percent from three becomes 35 percent, while also taking an absurd amount of shots. Points per game drops by five points to 13.5. I could go on and on about this as all of his stats take a nose dive as soon as he touches meaningful minutes on a playoff basketball court.

I gave him the benefit of the doubt last year in the playoffs as it was his real first experience there. Much like Vuc. But this year? Kid gloves were off, it was time to show why he was making 17 million. And he delivered a lukewarm performance that was not acceptable for a 17 million a year player. There are cheaper players who were performing better than him and providing more than him on defense.

You can stand on this hill waving the Fournier flag, but I will not be joining you in that regard because all Fournier is, is a regular season stud, but a playoff dud.

And that is why he has to be moved on from for a 2 that can bring it in the playoffs and not just sputter out in the playoffs like he has the last two seasons.

Playoffs would mean anything if teams don't have such a huge gap in quality. Because it's 8th seed playing 1st seed, while, in same time 8th seed missing 2 starters, and key guard defender off bench, data means literally nothing.

For same reasons nobody really blamed Darrell Amstrong for 2001 playoff fiasco, despite him averaging 16 ppg in regular season, but shooting 37% in playoffs ( on 13 ppg) .

Kyle Lowry is among top 10 players who's performances declined the most during playoffs. This is all time list. He is 3rd worst.
How he got there ? Well should have never been in position to be lead guy on a team, yet because he was slotted half of career with guys like Gay,Derozan ... he ended up there. But once he got guys like Leonard,his game transformed.

Better example is Siakam. Do you think Siakam sucks now? From 23 ppg, 45% FG, 36% for 3 ... to 17 ppg 39% FG, 17% for 3?

So now Siakam sucks and is below average player and needs to be traded because he doesn't deliver when it matters?
Hell no. It happends. He isn't and should never be viewed as lead guy on contender. But is elite second to third option.

Funniest part about Evan performance is that his TS% was still better than Fultz and Ennis and their.

Once again, context matters, player getting same looks and missing shots due mental pressure in playoffs is actual issue.
Evan didn't do that.
Evan shot 54% for 3 in wide open 3s. But he only got 13 threes wide open, 22 threes he took were contested.


Where objective critque of Evan lays is him shooting kind a poorly whole year when he is kind a open ( 4-6 feet away from defender).
Some issue is amount of "empty possession , nothing happend let's take stupid shot" and how he somehow always ends up with ball in them at the end. For example 158 shots he took were at end or tail end of shotclock. This type of shots tank your efficiency. Especially with Vučević , who is also up there in amount of "heroic " jumpshots taken with shot clock violation looming.


Those shots are killing Magic. But not so suprising when you know team does not effective playmaker nor floor spacing impelemented to avoid it. Gordon is another player who's efficiency tanks under pressure of shot clock. He took like 120 shots udner 7 sec on the clock and return value is 26% FG.

[Ducklett]

I really don't want to do this Pepe, mainly because I respect the hell out of your analytical takes, and view you as a quality contributed most of the time. Most of the time being the key turn of phrase in this particular moment.

You're right to talk about the quality of play that Evan shows in the regular season and I will agree with you he needs to be more of a catch and shoot, roll to the basket sort of guy in certain plays when he can do it. I think he could get to the line more as well, but that is neither here nor there.

My argument doesn't hinge on regular season statistics.

If I were here touting how bad Evan is in the

regular season that would have given some validity to your argument, but let's be real here. The regular season is not what I am talking about. There are plenty of guys who put up absurd numbers and look like monsters in the regular season and then look like kittens in a cardboard box in the playoffs.

This is a playoff discussion for me and to be real with you Evan has been a dumpster fire in Orlando when it comes to offense when it matters most.

47 percent shooting becomes 35 percent shooting. 40 percent from three becomes 35 percent, while also taking an absurd amount of shots. Points per game drops by five points to 13.5. I could go on and on about this as all of his stats take a nose dive as soon as he touches meaningful minutes on a playoff basketball court.

I gave him the benefit of the doubt last year in the playoffs as it was his real first experience there. Much like Vuc. But this year? Kid gloves were off, it was time to show why he was making 17 million. And he delivered a lukewarm performance that was not acceptable for a 17 million a year player. There are cheaper players who were performing better than him and providing more than him on defense.

You can stand on this hill waving the Fournier flag, but I will not be joining you in that regard because all Fournier is, is a regular season stud, but a playoff dud.

And that is why he has to be moved on from for a 2 that can bring it in the playoffs and not just sputter out in the playoffs like he has the last two seasons.

Playoffs would mean anything if teams don't have such a huge gap in quality. Because it's 8th seed playing 1st seed, while, in same time 8th seed missing 2 starters, and key guard defender off bench, data means literally nothing.

For same reasons nobody really blamed Darrell Amstrong for 2001 playoff fiasco, despite him averaging 16 ppg in regular season, but shooting 37% in playoffs ( on 13 ppg) .

Kyle Lowry is among top 10 players who's performances declined the most during playoffs. This is all time list. He is 3rd worst.
How he got there ? Well should have never been in position to be lead guy on a team, yet because he was slotted half of career with guys like Gay,Derozan ... he ended up there. But once he got guys like Leonard,his game transformed.

Better example is Siakam. Do you think Siakam sucks now? From 23 ppg, 45% FG, 36% for 3 ... to 17 ppg 39% FG, 17% for 3?

So now Siakam sucks and is below average player and needs to be traded because he doesn't deliver when it matters?
Hell no. It happends. He isn't and should never be viewed as lead guy on contender. But is elite second to third option.

Funniest part about Evan performance is that his TS% was still better than Fultz and Ennis and their.

Once again, context matters, player getting same looks and missing shots due mental pressure in playoffs is actual issue.
Evan didn't do that.
Evan shot 54% for 3 in wide open 3s. But he only got 13 threes wide open, 22 threes he took were contested.


Where objective critque of Evan lays is him shooting kind a poorly whole year when he is kind a open ( 4-6 feet away from defender).
Some issue is amount of "empty possession , nothing happend let's take stupid shot" and how he somehow always ends up with ball in them at the end. For example 158 shots he took were at end or tail end of shotclock. This type of shots tank your efficiency. Especially with Vučević , who is also up there in amount of "heroic " jumpshots taken with shot clock violation looming.


Those shots are killing Magic. But not so suprising when you know team does not effective playmaker nor floor spacing impelemented to avoid it. Gordon is another player who's efficiency tanks under pressure of shot clock. He took like 120 shots udner 7 sec on the clock and return value is 26% FG.

But we are in the 1-8 playoff situation because our team is butt. Doesn't that suggest we blow it up?

[pepe1991]

You don't have to blow it up to build something... Most of the time blowing up leads to years of never ending missery.

Making smart trades and retooling roster is always better. Especially during ongoing economic issues whole league is dealing with.

Going for Bradley Beal, Lavine type players makes more sense than just nuking team.

[ARandomStranger]

So we are just going to overlook the type of players Evan was going against at the starting two and bring up playoff Lowry (which it is well known he is a great regular season player, but falls off in the playoffs) and Siakam is a fourth year player who is only recently emerged as a guy with star level potential? Siakam struggled against the Celtics, this is true, but until the Heat became the Heat in the playoffs I favored the Celtics to come out of the East.

You are telling me Evan can't beat a 30+ year old role player in Wes Matthews or Kyle Lowry/Danny Green? If he can't do that in his prime years then maybe he shouldn't be getting paid the big bucks. Because with how much he is being paid he should be dropping a cold 20 every night against anyone but the super elite defenders. That is what 17 million signifies to me.

Look, I can relent that one playoff series isn't enough to judge a guy, but this is two playoff series in a row of poor performance. He is playing like a number one when clearly he should be a number three at the best of times. His defense is abysmal and his pass ability actually just gets worse in the playoffs.

I think his role on this team is wrong and in a world where somehow we had a first option, Evan would probably excel, but right now we have to look at what Evan is doing and be disappointed in the outcome. But more importantly we should be disappointed in the front office.

This Front Office has done nothing to acquire a first option player. Vuc at best is a second option. Can Fultz evolve into a first option? I want to think so, but that has yet to be seen if he will ever become an average three point shooter. Is Isaac going to be an offensive weapon? I don't know.

The fact is this, this team, as of right now, is a menagerie of pieces that would be better on different teams. We have guys who fill needs offensively for several contenders, but our offense has 0 identity. Defensively its a Clifford team, but offensively... we are supposed to be a team ball type of team, but it feels at times the ball sticks a bit too much. That is because of Evan, he dribbles too much, and demands the ball a lot.I just don't think he fits, Pepe.

It would be different if he was a true alpha dog and you have to know that, but he just doesn't have that. We need to find that, where I don't know where to look. Trades can happen and picks can be made, but I think Clifford has pulled just about as much as he can out of this roster as he can. Moves have to be made now and the Front Office needs to do the right moves...none of this slight improvements, major improvements. No more Aminu signings, we need legitimate moves to put us in a position for more than a quick out in the playoffs every season.

[zaymon]

So we are just going to overlook the type of players Evan was going against at the starting two and bring up playoff Lowry (which it is well known he is a great regular season player, but falls off in the playoffs) and Siakam is a fourth year player who is only recently emerged as a guy with star level potential? Siakam struggled against the Celtics, this is true, but until the Heat became the Heat in the playoffs I favored the Celtics to come out of the East.

You are telling me Evan can't beat a 30+ year old role player in Wes Matthews or Kyle Lowry/Danny Green? If he can't do that in his prime years then maybe he shouldn't be getting paid the big bucks. Because with how much he is being paid he should be dropping a cold 20 every night against anyone but the super elite defenders. That is what 17 million signifies to me.

Look, I can relent that one playoff series isn't enough to judge a guy, but this is two playoff series in a row of poor performance. He is playing like a number one when clearly he should be a number three at the best of times. His defense is abysmal and his pass ability actually just gets worse in the playoffs.

I think his role on this team is wrong and in a world where somehow we had a first option, Evan would probably excel, but right now we have to look at what Evan is doing and be disappointed in the outcome. But more importantly we should be disappointed in the front office.

This Front Office has done nothing to acquire a first option player. Vuc at best is a second option. Can Fultz evolve into a first option? I want to think so, but that has yet to be seen if he will ever become an average three point shooter. Is Isaac going to be an offensive weapon? I don't know.

The fact is this, this team, as of right now, is a menagerie of pieces that would be better on different teams. We have guys who fill needs offensively for several contenders, but our offense has 0 identity. Defensively its a Clifford team, but offensively... we are supposed to be a team ball type of team, but it feels at times the ball sticks a bit too much. That is because of Evan, he dribbles too much, and demands the ball a lot.I just don't think he fits, Pepe.

It would be different if he was a true alpha dog and you have to know that, but he just doesn't have that. We need to find that, where I don't know where to look. Trades can happen and picks can be made, but I think Clifford has pulled just about as much as he can out of this roster as he can. Moves have to be made now and the Front Office needs to do the right moves...none of this slight improvements, major improvements. No more Aminu signings, we need legitimate moves to put us in a position for more than a quick out in the playoffs every season.

There are about 10 players in the nba worthy of being first option. For the time we are rebuilding (8 years) only Jokic and Doncic were legitimate first options available in the draft. If you think dumping Fournier gets us closer to getting a number one option i am curious what is your thouth process.
Weltman made a high reward move to trade for Fultz and he is accumulating assets (mostly forwards) for the right move. Taking into account how often stars change teams and how rarely real stars are available in draft i think this strategy is more reliable for the long term.
Regarding Fournier we should definetly try to resign him on a team friendly deal unless someone overapys for him on a expiring. Its a simple asset management thing, there is no need to be overly emotional about it. Even Gordon who i thought was overpaid and mediocre player has some value now.

[Ducklett]

You don't have to blow it up to build something... Most of the time blowing up leads to years of never ending missery.

Making smart trades and retooling roster is always better. Especially during ongoing economic issues whole league is dealing with.

Going for Bradley Beal, Lavine type players makes more sense than just nuking team.

What star on the Magic currently gets Beal and Lavine types of players, you know... good stat, bad team perennial losers, to turn it around? If we had a Jimmy Butler/LeBron type to be the sword of Damocles above their heads to make them good, I would be all aboard with that plan.

[VFX]

Settling for a Fournier and Vucevic led offense for the 7th consecutive season is what people are vying for here?

Orlando deserves being a treadmill team.