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2021-2022 Regular Season Game 29: Atlanta Hawks (13-14) at Orlando Magic (5-23) - 12/15/21 - 7pm ET

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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 29: Atlanta Hawks (13-14) at Orlando Magic (5-23) - 12/15/21 - 7pm ET 

Post#161 » by Skybox » Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:38 pm

Knightro wrote:
Skybox wrote:Guys join teams not "destinations"...Nobody is going to BRK for the weather or the taxes, they're going to play with KD, Kyrie, Harden. LA too...why have the Lakers always been a destination and the Clips not under consideration (even in the same building)?

Miami is beautiful and sunny but Pat Riley and Jimmy Butler are the draw (or Dwayne Wade or Mourning...). Nobody flocked to MIA to play with Rony Seikaly.


You're missing the point with this though. Role players choose teams, certainly. But star players are the only ones that matter and for the most part those guys choose to play in the major markets - LA, New York, Miami - knowing that other stars can force their way out and role players will gladly follow.

Durant and Irving chose to sign with Brooklyn. LeBron chose to sign with LAL. Leonard chose to sign with LAC.

Then once those teams did that guys like Harden and Davis and George more or less held all the leverage on their existing teams and were able to force their way to join their buddies in the big markets.


Sounds hopeless then. We better pray that Anfernee Simons & Nasir Little become superstars and want to come home like Lebron and Kawhi did (and Derozan wanted to). It’s more than role players jumping (see LBJ & Bosh). MIAs big 3 had nothing to do with tanking. We are in sunny, tax free FL…why are we acting like we are in OKC or MIN? There are examples of every scenario working and not working. I don’t think sucking on purpose for more than a year works. You shouldn’t be drafting in the top 6 for years like it’s some secret genius plan. That’s how you become a farm team…I wonder how long a legit young star like SGA will be ok with getting rested by mid season for the next Poku, Giddy, etc (nice but not champs)…how about packaging those picks for a guy(s) who can win with SGA now? Let some other sucker try to spin the “3D chess” “Process” BS to their ownership and fan base (until they’re ultimately fired.
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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 29: Atlanta Hawks (13-14) at Orlando Magic (5-23) - 12/15/21 - 7pm ET 

Post#162 » by Knightro » Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:02 pm

Skybox wrote:Sounds hopeless then. We better pray that Anfernee Simons & Nasir Little become superstars and want to come home like Lebron and Kawhi did (and Derozan wanted to). It’s more than role players jumping (see LBJ & Bosh). MIAs big 3 had nothing to do with tanking. We are in sunny, tax free FL…why are we acting like we are in OKC or MIN? There are examples of every scenario working and not working. I don’t think sucking on purpose for more than a year works. You shouldn’t be drafting in the top 6 for years like it’s some secret genius plan. That’s how you become a farm team…I wonder how long a legit young star like SGA will be ok with getting rested by mid season for the next Poku, Giddy, etc (nice but not champs)…how about packaging those picks for a guy(s) who can win with SGA now? Let some other sucker try to spin the “3D chess” “Process” BS to their ownership and fan base (until they’re ultimately fired.


I'm not saying tanking is for sure the answer. It isn't. It requires a ton of patience and a ton of luck. But let's face some other harsh realities too.

Realistically speaking, at least 70% of NBA teams have absolutely no chance whatsoever to sign an all-star in free agency no matter how good their team is. That's just the unfortunate reality of the situation. So one path towards acquiring a franchise altering talent is immediately out the window for nearly 3/4th of the league.

So what does that leave as avenues to acquiring elite talent? The draft and trades.

Small market teams trading for elite talent is unfortunately dicey for a few reasons. The cost to acquire a high end talent is usually very high to the point where you'd be stripping the team of enough talented players to acquire the high end guy that it wouldn't make it worth while. Plus, unless you're trading for a guy with 3-4 years left on his deal, guys with 1-2 years left on their deals are always a threat to bail once they hit UFA.

And if you want get down to it, a small market club is only going to chase a big name via trade if they already have one or multiple elite talents on their rosters which they almost assuredly would have only been able to acquire via the draft. The Suns wouldn't have traded for Paul if they hadn't already hit on Ayton and Booker and Bridges. It wouldn't have been worth it for them to trade for Paul if the rest of their roster was all scrubs.

Small market teams can keep stars once they get them. It's just quite difficult for a small market club to get a star in the first place.
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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 29: Atlanta Hawks (13-14) at Orlando Magic (5-23) - 12/15/21 - 7pm ET 

Post#163 » by jezzerinho » Fri Dec 17, 2021 10:48 pm

Skybox wrote:Anybody drafted after #10 can't be considered a product of tanking strategy IMO...drafting Booker, Cameron, Herro, Adebayo,SGA types is just great FO. I won't even count Giannis as he is one-in-a-million long shot bet. You suck and you draft a very high pick, the next year (if your FO isn't missing) you improve. A lot. Unless you are riddled with injuries or get some big lotto luck, you should be incrementally improving constantly...if you get really lucky, you take a bigger jump. If you consolidate, you take a bigger jump...


I dont think it's that binary. Plenty of tanking teams - just like the Magic - tear it all down as the precursor to the tank and they acquire picks for the vets they push out. Not all those picks will be in the lottery. It could well be that a guy taken at #18 is drafted as a direct result of a decision to tank. I'm not about to start combing the net for what happened with the Suns in particular but it doesn't matter. It's totally possible to be tanking and have a bunch of late picks.
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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 29: Atlanta Hawks (13-14) at Orlando Magic (5-23) - 12/15/21 - 7pm ET 

Post#164 » by Skybox » Fri Dec 17, 2021 11:11 pm

jezzerinho wrote:
Skybox wrote:Anybody drafted after #10 can't be considered a product of tanking strategy IMO...drafting Booker, Cameron, Herro, Adebayo,SGA types is just great FO. I won't even count Giannis as he is one-in-a-million long shot bet. You suck and you draft a very high pick, the next year (if your FO isn't missing) you improve. A lot. Unless you are riddled with injuries or get some big lotto luck, you should be incrementally improving constantly...if you get really lucky, you take a bigger jump. If you consolidate, you take a bigger jump...


I dont think it's that binary. Plenty of tanking teams - just like the Magic - tear it all down as the precursor to the tank and they acquire picks for the vets they push out. Not all those picks will be in the lottery. It could well be that a guy taken at #18 is drafted as a direct result of a decision to tank. I'm not about to start combing the net for what happened with the Suns in particular but it doesn't matter. It's totally possible to be tanking and have a bunch of late picks.


Maybe I'm not following...isn't the one and only objective of tanking to get very very high picks? I guess you're talking about the later picks that are picked up in trades while dismantling the roster? Either way, no one's tanking for any reason other than to pick as high as possible and maybe, against all odds, get that generational guy that PHO, SAC, and ATL pass on. Those picks typically (Franz was an awesome exception) give you a roster of Okeke's and RJ Hamptons...either way, those acquired picks are just a side effect of the main goal of drafting at the very top...but even the very top is a crapshoot.
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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 29: Atlanta Hawks (13-14) at Orlando Magic (5-23) - 12/15/21 - 7pm ET 

Post#165 » by Xatticus » Sat Dec 18, 2021 2:55 am

Spoiler:
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I don't even know what people are arguing about. Do people want to go back to Vucevic and Fournier?

This team doesn't suck because it is tanking. It sucks because it is a young roster that will take time to mature and (more importantly) half the players are broken.
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Re: 2021-2022 Regular Season Game 29: Atlanta Hawks (13-14) at Orlando Magic (5-23) - 12/15/21 - 7pm ET 

Post#166 » by RichCollab » Sat Dec 18, 2021 3:48 am

I miss no google my last name Fournier. Not!

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