Weltman deserves more credit...

[Skybox]

If Orlando wins half its games and makes the playoffs, yes I would be thrilled. That is real growth.

I think 36 wins might be a more realistic ceiling for next season though.

..

So you'd rather be the 8th seed for 5 years with no star and then when Vuc retires stuck right back where we are now?

I don't see your point. Orlando is bad. And to get good, mediocre sits as a middle goal.

But that's not what this discussion is about in the above posts: it's about losing several seasons in a row. I do not want that at all. Tanking would be Orlando not trying to win next year and feeding the fans a 20 win roster to have a good shot at a 5-pick in the draft.

Orlando has talent. The goal now is to train the existing players to teach them how to i) get better, ii) play together, and iii) win games. In that, Orlando can also collect a bit more talent.

I want Orlando to be mediocre next year as that is the first step of an upward projection. Then: I believe a well-managed Magic can win 44+ games in 2023/24. That is a two-year window for WeHamm to provide their roster. And then 50 wins in 2024/25. Less than that and they need to be fired in 2024 or 2025.

the sweet sweet irony scenario is to improve significantly (to mediocre), compete every night, see growth and health among the young core, barely miss the playoffs and THEN land a high pick in the lottery.

[drsd]

the sweet sweet irony scenario is to improve significantly (to mediocre), compete every night, see growth and health among the young core, barely miss the playoffs and THEN land a high pick in the lottery.

Orlando drafts BPA this year, wins 36 games (by overachieving), misses the play-ins, but wins a top-4 slot in the 2023 lottery. I am all for that. How do we ensure it occurs

The unicorn of the 2023 draft is Victor Wembanyama. Gosh darn-it is he long. Not sure he actually plays a good game of B-ball, but he ticks a bunch of Chet Holmgren type-boxes.





Look at his fingers. WOW! He can tip hold a ball.

[pepe1991]

the sweet sweet irony scenario is to improve significantly (to mediocre), compete every night, see growth and health among the young core, barely miss the playoffs and THEN land a high pick in the lottery.

Orlando drafts BPA this year, wins 36 games (by overachieving), misses the play-ins, but wins a top-4 slot in the 2023 lottery. I am all for that. How do we ensure it occurs

The unicorn of the 2023 draft is Victor Wembanyama. Gosh darn-it is he long. Not sure he actually plays a good game of B-ball, but he ticks a bunch of Chet Holmgren type-boxes.





Look at his fingers. WOW! He can tip hold a ball.

Watch on YouTube

Wembanyama is cheat mode, he is like definitive answer to retoric question "what would McGee look like if he had BBIQ" or " what would Gobert look like if he had any offensive talent"

[Icemanbrfc]

Didn't draft Isaac, didn't draft WCJ, didn't draft Fultz. Bit harsh to judge him based on other teams draft selections. Made a superb trade to acquire WCJ, the 8th pick which gave us Franz and a future 1st. Traded AG for RJ, Harris and another 1st I think.

WCJ and Fultz can still be really great players for us, Franz showed this season that he is a super talented player, and to judge that pick when it's his rookie season is pretty harsh..don't know what to make on Suggs, because he just hasn't stayed healthy for long enough.

Not sure how well Weltman could have done, considering the mess that Hennigan left the organisation in..

[pepe1991]

Didn't draft Isaac, didn't draft WCJ, didn't draft Fultz. Bit harsh to judge him based on other teams draft selections. Made a superb trade to acquire WCJ, the 8th pick which gave us Franz and a future 1st. Traded AG for RJ, Harris and another 1st I think.

WCJ and Fultz can still be really great players for us, Franz showed this season that he is a super talented player, and to judge that pick when it's his rookie season is pretty harsh..don't know what to make on Suggs, because he just hasn't stayed healthy for long enough.

Not sure how well Weltman could have done, considering the mess that Hennigan left the organisation in..

Okey we all know how Hennigan whiteboard incident after Ibaka fiasco & Biyombo free agency was last nail in coffin, but he did not leave team in much mess.
Magic still owned all their first round picks and there was plenty of cap flexibility ( basically Biyombo contract was awful...but that's about it).

Vuc was expiring contract during their first year with Magic, they simply refused to trade him.
They exstended Gordon.
They exstended Ross.

They added Jonathan Simmons, later Aminu with MLE.
They drafted Isaac, Bamba and everybody else after.

So from mid 2017-18 season they had full control over their decisions, they could just as easly flip Vuc for something or let him walk and could trade Gordon or let him walk and they would have cap space for 2018. They elected not to, and keep Hennigan roster for additional 4 years. Everything that has happend in last 5 years was under full control of Hammond and Weltman.

Hennigan did lot of dumb stuff, mainly Biyombo , but also didn't hinder Magic future at all , at least not in moment Weltman took over. It's Weltman who decided to keep Hennigan's roster for ages doing nothing with it and calling that "evaluation". Matter of fact among Hennigan's core Evan- Gordon-Vuc-Payton- Ross. Hammond exstended 3 of them ( Gordon; Vuc, Ross) , Evan was already resigned but movable, he elected not to move him. So he only got rid of Payton. In 4 years.

[Husky1]

Hennigan did lot of dumb stuff, mainly Biyombo , but also didn't hinder Magic future at all at least not in moment Weltman took over.

Mate he literally traded Oladipo and Sabonis for Ibaka. How could anybody defend Hennigan. He should be arrested for war crimes for what he did as our GM.

[Magic_Kingdom]

Didn't draft Isaac, didn't draft WCJ, didn't draft Fultz. Bit harsh to judge him based on other teams draft selections. Made a superb trade to acquire WCJ, the 8th pick which gave us Franz and a future 1st. Traded AG for RJ, Harris and another 1st I think.

WCJ and Fultz can still be really great players for us, Franz showed this season that he is a super talented player, and to judge that pick when it's his rookie season is pretty harsh..don't know what to make on Suggs, because he just hasn't stayed healthy for long enough.

Not sure how well Weltman could have done, considering the mess that Hennigan left the organisation in..

Okey we all know how Hennigan whiteboard incident after Ibaka fiasco & Biyombo free agency was last nail in coffin, but he did not leave team in much mess.
Magic still owned all their first round picks and there was plenty of cap flexibility ( basically Biyombo contract was awful...but that's about it).

Vuc was expiring contract during their first year with Magic, they simply refused to trade him.
They exstended Gordon.
They exstended Ross.

They added Jonathan Simmons, later Aminu with MLE.
They drafted Isaac, Bamba and everybody else after.

So from mid 2017-18 season they had full control over their decisions, they could just as easly flip Vuc for something or let him walk and could trade Gordon or let him walk and they would have cap space for 2018. They elected not to, and keep Hennigan roster for additional 4 years. Everything that has happend in last 5 years was under full control of Hammond and Weltman.

Hennigan did lot of dumb stuff, mainly Biyombo , but also didn't hinder Magic future at all , at least not in moment Weltman took over. It's Weltman who decided to keep Hennigan's roster for ages doing nothing with it and calling that "evaluation". Matter of fact among Hennigan's core Evan- Gordon-Vuc-Payton- Ross. Hammond exstended 3 of them ( Gordon; Vuc, Ross) , Evan was already resigned but movable, he elected not to move him. So he only got rid of Payton. In 4 years.

Spot-on. If Hennigan left such a mess, why did Weltman not only sit on that mess for almost 4 years, but *extend* the mess? If the team was really bad in Year 4 of Welt's tenure, then it was Welt's fault, not Hennigan's. But somehow Welt convinced everyone that the team needed to tank because the roster had capped out, as if it was someone else's roster and not his own.

I also agree with drsd that getting the 8th seed or barely missing it is a necessary step in the team's growth. It does not mean you are on a treadmill unless you stay there for multiple years. And you have to take that step because free agents aren't going to join a tanking team. They want to go to a team with promise, a team that is moving in the right direction.

[pepe1991]

Hennigan did lot of dumb stuff, mainly Biyombo , but also didn't hinder Magic future at all at least not in moment Weltman took over.

Mate he literally traded Oladipo and Sabonis for Ibaka. How could anybody defend Hennigan. He should be arrested for war crimes for what he did as our GM.

That trade was awful but bit more context needed.
Sabonis wasn't Magic decision, OKC told them who to draft to trade Ibaka for Oladipo. Magic had no interest into throwing 5 years, $105M contract onto Oladipo who at that point was 4th year player who had career numbers around 15 ppg on 52% TS.

Oladipo himself said he would never become allstar level good if he wasn't traded.

I'm not defending Hennigan, and that trade was dumb, and Tobias Harris trade was probably even more awful, but i'm reflecting to notion that Hennigan "left mess behind him" that Weltman needed to fix. He didn't. Wetlman could easly dismental whole roster, minus Biyombo ( cap space 100M , Biyombo making $17 M wasn't as much of a burden as people say ) and do whatever he desired to do. But what he desired to do is what he did- kept Hennigan guys and exstended majority of them.


Just some clarification of 2016 pick and Sabonis, Magic were,by all accounts sat at Denzel Valentine, Deyonta Davis, Maker or Poeltl who they had interviews and went to see during workouts.

https://orlandomagicdaily.com/2016/05/14/orlando-magic-interview-jakob-poeltl-thon-maker-at-combine/

There is link where you can find that whole Magic important stuff went to scout them. Ofc Mat Llyod, as incompetent as usual was major part of scouting. Guess who is in charge of scouting 6 years later on same team ?
There was zero intentions for Orlando to ever draft Sabonis. So we can exclude him from whole "Sabonis & Oladipo for Ibaka" . it's hilarious that Presti conviced Hennigan to surrender the pick non less.

[Icemanbrfc]

Didn't draft Isaac, didn't draft WCJ, didn't draft Fultz. Bit harsh to judge him based on other teams draft selections. Made a superb trade to acquire WCJ, the 8th pick which gave us Franz and a future 1st. Traded AG for RJ, Harris and another 1st I think.

WCJ and Fultz can still be really great players for us, Franz showed this season that he is a super talented player, and to judge that pick when it's his rookie season is pretty harsh..don't know what to make on Suggs, because he just hasn't stayed healthy for long enough.

Not sure how well Weltman could have done, considering the mess that Hennigan left the organisation in..

Okey we all know how Hennigan whiteboard incident after Ibaka fiasco & Biyombo free agency was last nail in coffin, but he did not leave team in much mess.
Magic still owned all their first round picks and there was plenty of cap flexibility ( basically Biyombo contract was awful...but that's about it).

Vuc was expiring contract during their first year with Magic, they simply refused to trade him.
They exstended Gordon.
They exstended Ross.

They added Jonathan Simmons, later Aminu with MLE.
They drafted Isaac, Bamba and everybody else after.

So from mid 2017-18 season they had full control over their decisions, they could just as easly flip Vuc for something or let him walk and could trade Gordon or let him walk and they would have cap space for 2018. They elected not to, and keep Hennigan roster for additional 4 years. Everything that has happend in last 5 years was under full control of Hammond and Weltman.

Hennigan did lot of dumb stuff, mainly Biyombo , but also didn't hinder Magic future at all , at least not in moment Weltman took over. It's Weltman who decided to keep Hennigan's roster for ages doing nothing with it and calling that "evaluation". Matter of fact among Hennigan's core Evan- Gordon-Vuc-Payton- Ross. Hammond exstended 3 of them ( Gordon; Vuc, Ross) , Evan was already resigned but movable, he elected not to move him. So he only got rid of Payton. In 4 years.

C'mon man, let's look at it from the time Hennigan was fired, to now. Besides no state tax, which top free agent in the last 4 years of Weltman and Hammonds tenure, would have come here? As I said before, the roster dropped onto Weltmans lap just had no trade value, nobody wanted them before Vuc became an All Star.

Weltman brought us back to back playoffs, then blew it up, and brought us a young roster that we will have to see what they can do. It's likely that we will see the back of Ross, and a few others like Iggy, possibly Harris. We should have better cap flexibility to hit free agency, but again, which player in free agency is going to choose Orlando right now?

Weltman and Hammond are basically saying, that we will need to develop this young roster through the draft a bit longer, and then hope that they level up and explode into something that may attract a big ish name..

Still, you take somebody in the mid to late 20's of the draft, and you either strike it lucky, or its bust. Plenty of those who became a success, other teams passed on them, why? From what we saw, most Magic fans wanted us to take Moody/Kuminga at 8, or Bouknight. Weltman took Franz, and he has been pretty much a success. Granted Suggs hasn't done great offensively, when he has played, we have been right up there in terms of best defences.

Of the 4 years, 2 years In the playoffs, 2 years we have decided to go young and look towards the future. if we can get everybody healthy, incl Isaac, we could make the playoffs, if not, we just need to be patient one more year.

[jonbob17]

Hennigan did lot of dumb stuff, mainly Biyombo , but also didn't hinder Magic future at all at least not in moment Weltman took over.

Mate he literally traded Oladipo and Sabonis for Ibaka. How could anybody defend Hennigan. He should be arrested for war crimes for what he did as our GM.

Not a conspiracy guy, but i will be here. The trade was bad enough to make you wonder if Hennigan pulled the trigger to get back in the graces of OKC. I hope they have Martins or someone at least smell checking the GM moves.
If nothing else, it was udder desperation.

[drsd]

Other major tank issues is simply lottery. Your whole strategy is based on dumb luck. So you can tank like pro, gut out whole roster, make perfect landing spot yourself for Zion or Morant just to figure out you fell out of top 5-6? So.. you sucked whole year to maybe be in position to draft Garland? Or RJ Barrett? Happend to Magic last year when they fell out top 4 to end up with Suggs. Now you have sky high lottery pick that is being pushed up and down PG-SG spot to try to squeeze him into lineup with Fultz ( despie it makes no sense for doing so ) just to not admit world that your 5th overall pick, that you tanked season for, simply isn't all that good?

Let's say Orlando drafts Green last year. Oh man: the roster would already be set.

I am sad. Why did you do this to us?


..

[drsd]

Okey we all know how Hennigan whiteboard incident after Ibaka fiasco & Biyombo free agency was last nail in coffin, but he did not leave team in much mess.

[Mauro Pedrosa]

Orlando Magic, at average, has highest drafted nba roster in nba.
Lowest drafted roster in NBA, Heat, are 2-0 in first round of playoffs.



Weltman is Holmes of nba. Selling illusion to mass by never answering any direct question and acting smarter than anybody in a room, while selling bullsh*** wrapped in colorful paper.

This post made me laugh in real life. Thanks

[Xatticus]

Didn't draft Isaac, didn't draft WCJ, didn't draft Fultz. Bit harsh to judge him based on other teams draft selections. Made a superb trade to acquire WCJ, the 8th pick which gave us Franz and a future 1st. Traded AG for RJ, Harris and another 1st I think.

WCJ and Fultz can still be really great players for us, Franz showed this season that he is a super talented player, and to judge that pick when it's his rookie season is pretty harsh..don't know what to make on Suggs, because he just hasn't stayed healthy for long enough.

Not sure how well Weltman could have done, considering the mess that Hennigan left the organisation in..

They drafted Isaac.

[fendilim]

Didn't draft Isaac, didn't draft WCJ, didn't draft Fultz. Bit harsh to judge him based on other teams draft selections. Made a superb trade to acquire WCJ, the 8th pick which gave us Franz and a future 1st. Traded AG for RJ, Harris and another 1st I think.

WCJ and Fultz can still be really great players for us, Franz showed this season that he is a super talented player, and to judge that pick when it's his rookie season is pretty harsh..don't know what to make on Suggs, because he just hasn't stayed healthy for long enough.

Not sure how well Weltman could have done, considering the mess that Hennigan left the organisation in..

Okey we all know how Hennigan whiteboard incident after Ibaka fiasco & Biyombo free agency was last nail in coffin, but he did not leave team in much mess.
Magic still owned all their first round picks and there was plenty of cap flexibility ( basically Biyombo contract was awful...but that's about it).

Vuc was expiring contract during their first year with Magic, they simply refused to trade him.
They exstended Gordon.
They exstended Ross.

They added Jonathan Simmons, later Aminu with MLE.
They drafted Isaac, Bamba and everybody else after.

So from mid 2017-18 season they had full control over their decisions, they could just as easly flip Vuc for something or let him walk and could trade Gordon or let him walk and they would have cap space for 2018. They elected not to, and keep Hennigan roster for additional 4 years. Everything that has happend in last 5 years was under full control of Hammond and Weltman.

Hennigan did lot of dumb stuff, mainly Biyombo , but also didn't hinder Magic future at all , at least not in moment Weltman took over. It's Weltman who decided to keep Hennigan's roster for ages doing nothing with it and calling that "evaluation". Matter of fact among Hennigan's core Evan- Gordon-Vuc-Payton- Ross. Hammond exstended 3 of them ( Gordon; Vuc, Ross) , Evan was already resigned but movable, he elected not to move him. So he only got rid of Payton. In 4 years.

true true.

But WeHam was hired to replicate the Raptors’ success. This was clear from the onset. Listen to their interviews, they they just keep talking about how they made it work in Toronto. They tried, and we made the playoffs.

Somehow it was a success.

I blame this on management tbh. Not WeHam. You do what your bosses want you to do.

I actually applaud WeHam for pulling the plug after only two years of playoffs. We’ve seen teams already happy they made the playoffs, so they just keep running it back.