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Orlando Magic Official Training Camp Thread - 9/27 to 10/9

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Re: Orlando Magic Official Training Camp Thread - 9/27 to 10/9 

Post#101 » by JF5 » Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:23 pm

basketballRob wrote:You're assuming that Isaac and Fultz have no value.

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Which I find Bizarre.

Pepe has called Fultz a Shaun Livingston/Reggie Jackson type player. Which is a good player.

Also, he's admitted that Issac is a good player at some point

The only issue is these guys can't stay on the court. When they were playing together in the 19/20 season. These guys were an integral part of that teams early success when they were healthy.

The contracts aren't bloated by any degree. And there are options and clauses they can get them out sooner rather than later.

It just seems like he dislikes the Front Office so greatly that he wants this roster they assembled to fail.
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Re: Orlando Magic Official Training Camp Thread - 9/27 to 10/9 

Post#102 » by basketballRob » Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:35 pm

JF5 wrote:
basketballRob wrote:You're assuming that Isaac and Fultz have no value.

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Which I find Bizarre.

Pepe has called Fultz a Shaun Livingston/Reggie Jackson type player. Which is a good player.

Also, he's admitted that Issac is a good player at some point

The only issue is these guys can't stay on the court. When they were playing together in the 19/20 season. These guys were an integral part of that teams early success when they were healthy.

The contracts aren't bloated by any degree. And there are options and clauses they can get them out sooner rather than later.

It just seems like he dislikes the Front Office so greatly that he wants this roster they assembled to fail.
Isaac is still the most asked about player on the Magic by people around this forum. His style of play would compliment any team when he's healthy.

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Re: Orlando Magic Official Training Camp Thread - 9/27 to 10/9 

Post#103 » by Audi » Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:41 pm

Clearly, it's been a very long offseason for pepe and he's now resorted to recycling the same grievances. We need this season to start so he can move on to newer things to complain about. :lol:
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Re: Orlando Magic Official Training Camp Thread - 9/27 to 10/9 

Post#104 » by ORLMagicGirl15 » Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:44 pm

Some of you do it to yourselves. :noway:
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Re: Orlando Magic Official Training Camp Thread - 9/27 to 10/9 

Post#105 » by Bergmaniac » Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:18 pm

Fultz has a negative value with his current contract and that'd would have been true even if he was always able to play.
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Re: Orlando Magic Official Training Camp Thread - 9/27 to 10/9 

Post#106 » by Blue_and_Whte » Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:59 pm

I am NOT calling g Okeke Okaykay.
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Re: Orlando Magic Official Training Camp Thread - 9/27 to 10/9 

Post#107 » by Def Swami » Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:23 pm

Blue_and_Whte wrote:I am NOT calling g Okeke Okaykay.

I was watching the 2019 draft with my friend who is Nigerian. He instantly pointed out how everyone was mispronouncing his name. It's actually closer to Oh-keh-keh. It's cool that Okeke is trying to get closer to his roots.

I feel like we butchered Nikola Vucevic's name for so many years. And the Bulls announcing team is still trying to get used to it. :noway:
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Re: Orlando Magic Official Training Camp Thread - 9/27 to 10/9 

Post#108 » by pepe1991 » Thu Sep 29, 2022 3:43 am

Bergmaniac wrote:Fultz has a negative value with his current contract and that'd would have been true even if he was always able to play.


Execlly.
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Re: Orlando Magic Official Training Camp Thread - 9/27 to 10/9 

Post#109 » by pepe1991 » Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:01 am

JF5 wrote:
basketballRob wrote:You're assuming that Isaac and Fultz have no value.

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Which I find Bizarre.

Pepe has called Fultz a Shaun Livingston/Reggie Jackson type player. Which is a good player.

Also, he's admitted that Issac is a good player at some point

The only issue is these guys can't stay on the court. When they were playing together in the 19/20 season. These guys were an integral part of that teams early success when they were healthy.

The contracts aren't bloated by any degree. And there are options and clauses they can get them out sooner rather than later.

It just seems like he dislikes the Front Office so greatly that he wants this roster they assembled to fail.




:roll:

Shaun Livingston for career averaged 6,3 ppg , 3 rebounds, 2,4 assists.
Shaun Livingston in his entire nba career made less than $60M. Despite being on payroll for almost 20 years.

He was never payed more than $7,6M for single season.

Perception of his career changed from " one of worst busts in basketball history" to "okey role player" in his 30s when he joined Warriors and become their 15-17 mpg backup in playoffs . By that point he was bounced around 9 nba teams.
In matter of 3 years ( 2009- 2012) he was waived by 3 different teams ( Memphis, OKlahoma, Rockets) . in same period he was playing on 10 day contracts ( 2008-09 & 2009-10 his nba earning combined are 650 K ).
For sake of debate, it's worth noting guy was 4th overall pick and even before that injury, his career was going very poorly.

Reggie jackson plays on 2 years ( 11M a year) contract as Clippers really can't improve roster due their luxury cap situation last 2 seasons. Pistons waived him. it's common sense that his Pistons $17M a year contract was awful. just like Fultz contract is.

When they were playing together in the 19/20 season. These guys were an integral part of that teams early success when they were healthy.

Isaac played 34 games in 2019- season.
Magic had 15-19 record WITH HIM and 18-21 WITHOUT HIM.
So that "integral" part wasn't as integral as you think ( again, fact checking yourself would help your cause, but we already established lack of facts & data in your previous posts :wink: )

The only issue is these guys can't stay on the court.

Those two players, only played 33 games together, for Orlando Magic, despite fact we are near 4th year anniversary since Fultz joined Orlando, in February

Your attemps to downplay this are abnormal and impossible to take serious.
They "just" never play. Let alone play together. Period.

How little they played together? Well it's worth noting that over 3 years span Tracy McGrady and Grant Hill menaged to play more games together than those two guys.

. And there are options and clauses they can get them out sooner rather than later.

Isaac's contract clause can only be exercised if he is waived by team.
Fultz $17M contract becomes fully guaranteed if not waived by June 30, 2023, for 2023-24 season.

Both scenarios are very unlikely.

What buffles me is how can somebody defend fact that you have those two guys being in 3rd year of new contracts without even timetable of their return, as in last 3 years they combined for 26 games. One of them played execlly 0:00 min since he signed exstension two years ago, and doesn't even have timetable of return.
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Re: Orlando Magic Official Training Camp Thread - 9/27 to 10/9 

Post#110 » by jonbob17 » Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:43 pm

Bergmaniac wrote:Fultz has a negative value with his current contract and that'd would have been true even if he was always able to play.


Fultz probably somewhere around the 25-30th best point guard in the league at the moment. $16.5M sounds like a bargain for that. If he plays this season healthy, he probably significantly out performs the contract this year, and any improvement probably finds himself as a solid average starter at PG in this league. Which is a really good player since PG is such a deep position, and important position given how much they have the ball in their hands.
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Re: Orlando Magic Official Training Camp Thread - 9/27 to 10/9 

Post#111 » by JF5 » Thu Sep 29, 2022 3:26 pm

pepe1991 wrote: :roll:

Shaun Livingston for career averaged 6,3 ppg , 3 rebounds, 2,4 assists.
Shaun Livingston in his entire nba career made less than $60M. Despite being on payroll for almost 20 years.

He was never payed more than $7,6M for single season.

Perception of his career changed from " one of worst busts in basketball history" to "okey role player" in his 30s when he joined Warriors and become their 15-17 mpg backup in playoffs . By that point he was bounced around 9 nba teams.
In matter of 3 years ( 2009- 2012) he was waived by 3 different teams ( Memphis, OKlahoma, Rockets) . in same period he was playing on 10 day contracts ( 2008-09 & 2009-10 his nba earning combined are 650 K ).
For sake of debate, it's worth noting guy was 4th overall pick and even before that injury, his career was going very poorly.


Lol, those guys were 6th Man of the Year Candidates/1st guys off the bench, or even started on good-to-contender caliber teams on Warriors/Clippers/Pistons/Thunder over their careers. To say that they were just average-mediocre in their roles throughout their careers is hilarious to me.

You can't even admit these guys are even good quality players is hilarious. :lol:

pepe1991 wrote:Reggie jackson plays on 2 years ( 11M a year) contract as Clippers really can't improve roster due their luxury cap situation last 2 seasons. Pistons waived him. it's common sense that his Pistons $17M a year contract was awful. just like Fultz contract is.


The Detroit Pistons released him because they decided to rebuild and he didn't fit their timeline. They also release/waived/bought out Blake Griffin around the same time. Both these guys are vets who are suited on being on contending teams in this stage of their careers (Which the Clippers/Nets hopped on)

You're purposely being disingenuous about the situation once again.

pepe1991 wrote:Isaac played 34 games in 2019- season.
Magic had 15-19 record WITH HIM and 18-21 WITHOUT HIM.
So that "integral" part wasn't as integral as you think ( again, fact checking yourself would help your cause, but we already established lack of facts & data in your previous posts :wink: )


That's true for the record they had. I'm not downplaying anything. (Unlike your inability to answer my question about your Cap-Flexibility assertion and what "phantom" star player the Magic could've signed/brought in to make the Vucevic era team significantly better)

But, clearly you forgot that when Issac was in the line-up the Magic were one of the best defensive teams in the NBA. Also, he was in the conversation for DPOY during that time and would've certainly made and all-defensive team before he went down.

So lets keep the fact checking 100 percent here.

pepe1991 wrote:Those two players, only played 33 games together, for Orlando Magic, despite fact we are near 4th year anniversary since Fultz joined Orlando, in February

Your attemps to downplay this are abnormal and impossible to take serious.
They "just" never play. Let alone play together. Period.


For me personally, if this team was actually trying to win within the last few seasons. This would actually be a problem for them to trade for better players.

But when the organization decides to blow it up and purposely tank because your previous 3 Core PIeces even realize this wasn't going anywhere, then I don't have a problem waiting and seeing if this those guys are able to get their careers back on track.

So I ask AGAIN Pepe. What is the the actual problem with taking in part in reclamation projects on Fultz/Issac when this team is 2-3 years away from actually competing? I'M BEGGING YOU to answer this question.

You've evaded this question 2-3 times.

pepe1991 wrote:How little they played together? Well it's worth noting that over 3 years span Tracy McGrady and Grant Hill menaged to play more games together than those two guys.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

This is more ridiculous because during the Grant Hill/Tracy McGrady era when they both signed, the Expectation was for them to be instant contenders or close to it right out of the gate.

It's a completely different situation to the current Magic squad because the Magic have been purposely tanking and are asset grabbing the last 2 years.

Yes, McGrady and Hill only played a handful of games together. But the main issue was McGrady became a Superstar player during that time and he was ready to compete and he didn't have the help to actually compete.

The cap-flexibility which you mentioned during the Vucevic era which you claimed hurt that iteration of the Magic (though even their own Core players didn't want to be there), was actually more of a real problem during the McGrady-HIll era because they couldn't get another Star player to take the pressure off T-Mac and for them to Magic an actual push for a title.

McGrady forced himself out of the situation and paired himself with an actual 2nd option in Yao Ming (Though that didn't work out either due to their injury history during the mid-to-late 00s)

pepe1991 wrote:Isaac's contract clause can only be exercised if he is waived by team.


Wait, I'm confused... Through your estimation of Issac he barely plays therefore he has no trade value. I would assume since he eats so much of the cap and hasn't played, the Magic should just wash their hands of him right?

The injury clause in his contract would let us out of that obligation without taking much of a cap hit.

Unless, you're suggesting something else.

pepe1991 wrote:Fultz $17M contract becomes fully guaranteed if not waived by June 30, 2023, for 2023-24 season.


If Fultz goes down with injury for a long period of time this season, the front office is definitely going to waive his player option in 2023. :lol:

They have way too many guards for them to not going to a different direction for if he doesn't get it together now. Lets, not kid ourselves and say this is unlikely the Magic would let Fultz walk if he has another setback.

pepe1991 wrote:What buffles me is how can somebody defend fact that you have those two guys being in 3rd year of new contracts without even timetable of their return, as in last 3 years they combined for 26 games. One of them played execlly 0:00 min since he signed exstension two years ago, and doesn't even have timetable of return.


Both will be returning this season, guaranteed so we'll see what happens if they can handle the rigors of a long season. The blatant tanking is over and they've had enough time for rehabilitation.

It's a wait and see approach.

Also, the Cap numbers that you are spewing are relative to the time.

Fultz/Issac making around 17 million a piece a year is literally 35% of what the top players make (Stephen Curry) compared to their own individual salaries. Their market-value is correct and not an over pay at all.

They're essentially making role-player/high end role player money.
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Re: Orlando Magic Official Training Camp Thread - 9/27 to 10/9 

Post#112 » by Audi » Thu Sep 29, 2022 7:02 pm

JF5 wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:Isaac played 34 games in 2019- season.
Magic had 15-19 record WITH HIM and 18-21 WITHOUT HIM.
So that "integral" part wasn't as integral as you think ( again, fact checking yourself would help your cause, but we already established lack of facts & data in your previous posts :wink: )


That's true for the record they had. I'm not downplaying anything. (Unlike your inability to answer my question about your Cap-Flexibility assertion and what "phantom" star player the Magic could've signed/brought in to make the Vucevic era team significantly better)


I don't think pepe is making the assertion that there would have been a "phantom" star player we could've used that cap on, instead he's saying he would have rather just had a under-performer like Schroder who, while not having the same upside as JI/Fultz, would at least play.

In other words, there's only so much smack you can talk about a player when they don't actually play, and pepe is running out of content.
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Re: Orlando Magic Official Training Camp Thread - 9/27 to 10/9 

Post#113 » by fateis007 » Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:09 pm

Pepe only talks when he can pull out stats to fuel an argument that fit his narrative. He wanted to take Holmgren in the draft, that got his season taken out on a low contact play, in a non league game. (which was most people's #1 concern going into the draft, how durable he would be with his frame) I bet you wouldn't have heard a peep from him about it, if we took him and lost an entire season. But he will sit here and fight tooth and nail over JI being injured and what a waste of a contract it was. Hypocrite much?
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Re: Orlando Magic Official Training Camp Thread - 9/27 to 10/9 

Post#114 » by JF5 » Fri Sep 30, 2022 1:00 am

Audi wrote:
JF5 wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:Isaac played 34 games in 2019- season.
Magic had 15-19 record WITH HIM and 18-21 WITHOUT HIM.
So that "integral" part wasn't as integral as you think ( again, fact checking yourself would help your cause, but we already established lack of facts & data in your previous posts :wink: )


That's true for the record they had. I'm not downplaying anything. (Unlike your inability to answer my question about your Cap-Flexibility assertion and what "phantom" star player the Magic could've signed/brought in to make the Vucevic era team significantly better)


I don't think pepe is making the assertion that there would have been a "phantom" star player we could've used that cap on, instead he's saying he would have rather just had a under-performer like Schroder who, while not having the same upside as JI/Fultz, would at least play.

In other words, there's only so much smack you can talk about a player when they don't actually play, and pepe is running out of content.


I know this... And he knows that we all know this would be likely to happen if we chose the cap flexibility route.

We tried it back in 2016 and overpaid EXTREMELY for a bench role player in Biyombo who played the same position as our best player in Vucevic.

We signed Fultz to a reasonable contract all things considered for a role player. I cant imagine if we signed a guy like Dennis Schroeder to a 25-30 million dollar a year contract who is basically around the same level as Fultz.

Getting off of those long term contracts cost an asset or two.
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Re: Orlando Magic Official Training Camp Thread - 9/27 to 10/9 

Post#115 » by pepe1991 » Fri Sep 30, 2022 5:52 am

fateis007 wrote:Pepe only talks when he can pull out stats to fuel an argument that fit his narrative. He wanted to take Holmgren in the draft, that got his season taken out on a low contact play, in a non league game. (which was most people's #1 concern going into the draft, how durable he would be with his frame) I bet you wouldn't have heard a peep from him about it, if we took him and lost an entire season. But he will sit here and fight tooth and nail over JI being injured and what a waste of a contract it was. Hypocrite much?


People should talk about stuff that they can support by arguments and facts. That's somehow bad thing? :lol:

Chet Holmgren had 0 injuries in past, before that injury that had nothing to do with his weight.

HOWEVER, talking about twisting narratives, it's hilarious that you somehow remember by stand on Holmgren BUT you fail to adress about 80 other posters who wanted no part of Banchero but were milking Jabar's juices like a golden cow.
Why don't you go after them? Or you somehow "forgot" that pool of voting on who Magic should draft looked something like
80% Smith, 15% Holmgren, 5% Bancehero? :lol: :lol:


if we took him and lost an entire season. But he will sit here and fight tooth and nail over JI being injured and what a waste of a contract it was. Hypocrite much?

Only hypocritical take here is yours. Holmgren was drafted healthy. Got hurt.
JOnathan Isaac was resigned 3 months after he torn his ACL, while already ruled out for reminder of that season.
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Re: Orlando Magic Official Training Camp Thread - 9/27 to 10/9 

Post#116 » by pepe1991 » Fri Sep 30, 2022 6:14 am

JF5 wrote:
Audi wrote:
JF5 wrote:

That's true for the record they had. I'm not downplaying anything. (Unlike your inability to answer my question about your Cap-Flexibility assertion and what "phantom" star player the Magic could've signed/brought in to make the Vucevic era team significantly better)


I don't think pepe is making the assertion that there would have been a "phantom" star player we could've used that cap on, instead he's saying he would have rather just had a under-performer like Schroder who, while not having the same upside as JI/Fultz, would at least play.

In other words, there's only so much smack you can talk about a player when they don't actually play, and pepe is running out of content.


I know this... And he knows that we all know this would be likely to happen if we chose the cap flexibility route.

We tried it back in 2016 and overpaid EXTREMELY for a bench role player in Biyombo who played the same position as our best player in Vucevic.

We signed Fultz to a reasonable contract all things considered for a role player. I cant imagine if we signed a guy like Dennis Schroeder to a 25-30 million dollar a year contract who is basically around the same level as Fultz.

Getting off of those long term contracts cost an asset or two.


Your ability to make up stuff is pretty damn amazing.

This is salary of Schroder and Fultz over years. Can you tell who is who?

Image

Image

In not so shocking twist, Fultz, who hardly plays basketball, alraedy earns more money per single season payed than Schroder in his entire career.

And their actual production looks like this

Image

And again, in no so shocking twist, Schroder over his career has been superior player in just about every single category.

Image


So to you it's okey to resign just about every scrub team puts hands on because " Magic can't get anybody in free agency".
Well for damn sure they will never even put themselfs in position to get anybody if they have no cap space in first place.

And as far as Biyombo & Green contracts go, they were awful. But they at least played basketball.

During 2021-22 season, Orlando Magic spent $54 300 000 on Harris, Jonathan Isaac and Markelle Fultz. That was 42% of cap space tied into 0 games from isaac, 18 games from Fultz and 60 games from Harris.

For 2022-23 Orlando Magic has $47 000 000 tied into same 3 players. Not a single one has any timetable of return from injury.

There really is no much difference between Gary Harris and Jeff Green type of contract. it's just perception. Just like perception of TPE as "asset" was a thing that people loved to hype as "massive Magic asset" and once it expired, literally nobody said a word after.
Same was with Bamba's career. Guy was "asset" and "will develop", "talent", "better than Gobert" ,until day even his family figured he ain't all that. Nobody mentioned him whole summer. Why is that? It's almost like... nobody wants to admit own bulls***s? Hmm...
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Re: Orlando Magic Official Training Camp Thread - 9/27 to 10/9 

Post#117 » by j_n » Fri Sep 30, 2022 8:03 am

pepe1991 wrote:
During 2021-22 season, Orlando Magic spent $54 300 000 on Harris, Jonathan Isaac and Markelle Fultz. That was 42% of cap space tied into 0 games from isaac, 18 games from Fultz and 60 games from Harris.

For 2022-23 Orlando Magic has $47 000 000 tied into same 3 players. Not a single one has any timetable of return from injury.

Why are obsessed with the salaries and money spent in a league that has a cap minimum?
That money has to be spent anyway, what else could the Magic spend that money on?
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Re: Orlando Magic Official Training Camp Thread - 9/27 to 10/9 

Post#118 » by pepe1991 » Fri Sep 30, 2022 9:17 am

j_n wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
During 2021-22 season, Orlando Magic spent $54 300 000 on Harris, Jonathan Isaac and Markelle Fultz. That was 42% of cap space tied into 0 games from isaac, 18 games from Fultz and 60 games from Harris.

For 2022-23 Orlando Magic has $47 000 000 tied into same 3 players. Not a single one has any timetable of return from injury.

Why are obsessed with the salaries and money spent in a league that has a cap minimum?
That money has to be spent anyway, what else could the Magic spend that money on?



Floor minimum last year was $101M.
Orlando commited $127M.
The minimum team salary, which is set at 90% of the salary cap, is $111.290 million for the 2022-23 season. Magic commited $123M.


So stop pretending that they were in some danger of not hitting salary floor.

Matter of fact Magic were over salary cap in both years.
Salary for 2021-22 was $112M. For 2022-23 is slightly below $123M.


I'm NOT obsessed with money. But league has salary cap and you have to operate under it. Commiting 50% of cap in players that DON'T PLAY is issue. If you can't wrap your head around so obvious facts, it's really hard to have serious conversation about topic.

There is clear opportunity cost thing. You are robbing yourself from having potetnial alternatives if your players are always hurt.
1) they can't play so they are hurting on court product
2) they can't play so they are not assets in trades
3) they take spots & money from ability to sign better / or at least more aveliable alternatives

Even if player A is much better than player B, it means very little if he plays 30% ( or Isaac's case 0%) of time than average player who plays +70% time.
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Re: Orlando Magic Official Training Camp Thread - 9/27 to 10/9 

Post#119 » by orlando_joe » Fri Sep 30, 2022 10:00 am

pepe1991 wrote:
j_n wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
During 2021-22 season, Orlando Magic spent $54 300 000 on Harris, Jonathan Isaac and Markelle Fultz. That was 42% of cap space tied into 0 games from isaac, 18 games from Fultz and 60 games from Harris.

For 2022-23 Orlando Magic has $47 000 000 tied into same 3 players. Not a single one has any timetable of return from injury.

Why are obsessed with the salaries and money spent in a league that has a cap minimum?
That money has to be spent anyway, what else could the Magic spend that money on?



Floor minimum last year was $101M.
Orlando commited $127M.
The minimum team salary, which is set at 90% of the salary cap, is $111.290 million for the 2022-23 season. Magic commited $123M.


So stop pretending that they were in some danger of not hitting salary floor.

Matter of fact Magic were over salary cap in both years.
Salary for 2021-22 was $112M. For 2022-23 is slightly below $123M.


I'm NOT obsessed with money. But league has salary cap and you have to operate under it. Commiting 50% of cap in players that DON'T PLAY is issue. If you can't wrap your head around so obvious facts, it's really hard to have serious conversation about topic.

There is clear opportunity cost thing. You are robbing yourself from having potetnial alternatives if your players are always hurt.
1) they can't play so they are hurting on court product
2) they can't play so they are not assets in trades
3) they take spots & money from ability to sign better / or at least more aveliable alternatives

Even if player A is much better than player B, it means very little if he plays 30% ( or Isaac's case 0%) of time than average player who plays +70% time.


dont pretend like they were signed last summer
everything else you posted does not matter
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Re: Orlando Magic Official Training Camp Thread - 9/27 to 10/9 

Post#120 » by pepe1991 » Fri Sep 30, 2022 11:32 am

orlando_joe wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
j_n wrote:Why are obsessed with the salaries and money spent in a league that has a cap minimum?
That money has to be spent anyway, what else could the Magic spend that money on?



Floor minimum last year was $101M.
Orlando commited $127M.
The minimum team salary, which is set at 90% of the salary cap, is $111.290 million for the 2022-23 season. Magic commited $123M.


So stop pretending that they were in some danger of not hitting salary floor.

Matter of fact Magic were over salary cap in both years.
Salary for 2021-22 was $112M. For 2022-23 is slightly below $123M.


I'm NOT obsessed with money. But league has salary cap and you have to operate under it. Commiting 50% of cap in players that DON'T PLAY is issue. If you can't wrap your head around so obvious facts, it's really hard to have serious conversation about topic.

There is clear opportunity cost thing. You are robbing yourself from having potetnial alternatives if your players are always hurt.
1) they can't play so they are hurting on court product
2) they can't play so they are not assets in trades
3) they take spots & money from ability to sign better / or at least more aveliable alternatives

Even if player A is much better than player B, it means very little if he plays 30% ( or Isaac's case 0%) of time than average player who plays +70% time.


dont pretend like they were signed last summer
everything else you posted does not matter


Jonathan Isaac was resigned 3 months after he torn his ACL :crazy:
Ofc it doesn't matter when you can't argue against facts :wink:
Life is what happens when you're busy making other plans. -John Lennon

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