Is Fred VanFleet still on the agenda?

[Viper1500]

This absolute scrub VanVleet with 19 PTS 12 AST through 3 quarters as the Raptors lead in Denver.

What a bum

Perfect tribute to FVV

Raptors end up losing, FVV is 5 for 12. He also had 5 TOS.

There is a reason FVV is going to be available this off season. He is a highly flawed player.

He is an elite sub who starts and wants to get paid like a high level starter.

If you want to pay top dollar for an elite 6th man, that is OK.

Toronto has a losing record for a reason and FVV playing as a starting PG is a big reason.

Agree,

I personally see FVV as a slight upgrade to Fultz. In two-three years time, who knows? I understand the philosophy behind the “use it or lose it” with cap space, but FVV isn’t a player who I believe will add more than a couple wins to this team.


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[drsd]

I personally see FVV as a slight upgrade to Fultz.

This is the rub for me: VanVleet would not replace Fultz; they would be the back-court together.

Playing two combo-guards is not a general winning strategy. I guess the notion here is that both can with two defend both guards and both can in game rotate as to who is on/off ball.

Maybe these are the two to make it work, but I would be more keen on Trent over VanVleet.

..

[Skybox]

I personally see FVV as a slight upgrade to Fultz.

This is the rub for me: VanVleet would not replace Fultz; they would be the back-court together.

Playing two combo-guards is not a general winning strategy. I guess the notion here is that both can with two defend both guards and both can in game rotate as to who is on/off ball.

Maybe these are the two to make it work, but I would be more keen on Trent over VanVleet.

..

Maybe this is why people are so off base on FVV...If you're thinking he's a 2 or "a nice player next to Fultz", you're, IMO, completely missing the point. He replaces Fultz. He gives us the dimension at PG that every team in the league now enjoys - a PG who is as much a threat to score as to distribute.

Stop calling him a short SG...that would be a ridiculous waste of his skill set and proven leadership. Someday, maybe, Cole will elevate his mental game to compare to FVV's. That would be fantastic and probably a lot more likely if he was around him -rather than watching a guy who doesn't even try to draw defensive coverage beyond the elbow.

[Knightro]

Perfect tribute to FVV

Raptors end up losing, FVV is 5 for 12. He also had 5 TOS.

5 for 12 with a… *checks notes*… 67.6 TS%.

[Knightro]

The Magic’s front office could be stubborn and attempt to play FVV and Fultz together, but that would ultimately be a mistake IMO.

The actual move that needs to be made is to replace Fultz *and* replace Harris in a total overhaul of the starting backcourt.

FVV, if they decide to go that route, would be a good first step provided they don’t try and pigeonhole him in next to Fultz.

[Bergmaniac]

Perfect tribute to FVV

Raptors end up losing, FVV is 5 for 12. He also had 5 TOS.

5 for 12 with a… *checks notes*… 67.6 TS%.

And 14 assists. Such a terrible game...

He had two bad turnovers down the stretch, but Toronto still could have won if not for Scott Foster going full "I have money on Denver to win this" mode.

[AaronB]

Perfect tribute to FVV

Raptors end up losing, FVV is 5 for 12. He also had 5 TOS.

5 for 12 with a… *checks notes*… 67.6 TS%.

And 14 assists. Such a terrible game...

He had two bad turnovers down the stretch, but Toronto still could have won if not for Scott Foster going full "I have money on Denver to win this" mode.

2 TOS and 1 poor pass … in the last 70 seconds of the game …. With the game on the line.

That is not simply “down the stretch”, that is in crunch time.

[AaronB]

Perfect tribute to FVV

Raptors end up losing, FVV is 5 for 12. He also had 5 TOS.

5 for 12 with a… *checks notes*… 67.6 TS%.

And now we know why most of the stats you post are useless.

watch.the.game.

FVV played extremely poorly during crunch time and was embarrassed
By Murray.

[Knightro]

And now we know why most of the stats you post are useless.

watch.the.game.

FVV played extremely poorly during crunch time and was embarrassed
By Murray.

NBA games are 48 minutes long my guy. And all the baskets count for the same 2 or 3 points regardless of when they're scored.

The Raptors would have gotten viciously blown out if FVV didn't play as well as he did for the first 45 minutes.

He had a tough (and not as bad as you're making it out to be) finish on the road against the best team in the West, but that sort of stuff happens.

[Knightro]

2 TOS and 1 poor pass … in the last 70 seconds of the game …. With the game on the line.

That is not simply “down the stretch”, that is in crunch time.

Let's break down these two backbreaking turnovers shall we?

The first of these two disgustingly putrid turnovers was when FVV lost the ball out of bounds with 3:55 to go and the Raptors up 4. Murray missed a 3 on the ensuing possession and the Raptors got the rebound and scored a layup immediately the other way to go up 6.

The other horrific turnover was when FVV threw the ball away with the Raptors down 5 with 16 seconds left which is basically a near automatic loss scenario anyway for Toronto without some great fortune. And on the subsequent possession for Denver, a mere 6 seconds later, FVV stole the ball back (the Raptors missed a 3) so no real harm done there either outside of the 6 seconds lost.

[tiderulz]

Perfect tribute to FVV

Raptors end up losing, FVV is 5 for 12. He also had 5 TOS.

5 for 12 with a… *checks notes*… 67.6 TS%.

yeah, 21 pts, 14 assists, almost 68% TS.

[Knightro]

All I know is that if Markelle Fultz ever put up a 21 point, 14 assist, 68 TS% game at any point in his career this board would be ready to stick him in the Hall of Fame

[yoyojw17]

Month of February -

20.3 ppg

6.6-18.0 fga 36.8 FG%

3.1-9.5 3pa 32.9 3pFG%

they went 6-2 though... which is great

But on a team that is more established than ours identity wise.... i would tread very carefully on thinking he could lead us to another level.... especially at his asking price.

Like.... Mikal Bridge showing signs of steady improvement and then budding potential.... I was down for that kind of gamble... FVV trying to get his last big contract before things start going downhill.... i'll pass.

[AaronB]

2 TOS and 1 poor pass … in the last 70 seconds of the game …. With the game on the line.

That is not simply “down the stretch”, that is in crunch time.

Let's break down these two backbreaking turnovers shall we?

The first of these two disgustingly putrid turnovers was when FVV lost the ball out of bounds with 3:55 to go and the Raptors up 4. Murray missed a 3 on the ensuing possession and the Raptors got the rebound and scored a layup immediately the other way to go up 6.

The other horrific turnover was when FVV threw the ball away with the Raptors down 5 with 16 seconds left which is basically a near automatic loss scenario anyway for Toronto without some great fortune. And on the subsequent possession for Denver, a mere 6 seconds later, FVV stole the ball back (the Raptors missed a 3) so no real harm done there either outside of the 6 seconds lost.

The backbreaker does not even show up in the stat sheet. Down 1 or 2, open team-mate for a 3 attempt, FVV decides to use extra dribbles, then throws a slow off the mark pass that allows opponent to recover.

I am not even saying FVV is a bad player. He is an amazing and inspirational player.

He is just Just extemely flawed as a starting point guard. In many ways, much more flawed than Fultz, who also has significant flaws.

FVV is an elite 6th man on a championship team. But as a starting PG? No, you might as well bring him in as a PF. It is why he was not resigned earlier.

You can have the last word, I have no desire to debate every ridiculous idea on the internet.

[Skybox]

Month of February -

20.3 ppg

6.6-18.0 fga 36.8 FG%

3.1-9.5 3pa 32.9 3pFG%

they went 6-2 though... which is great

But on a team that is more established than ours identity wise.... i would tread very carefully on thinking he could lead us to another level.... especially at his asking price.

Like.... Mikal Bridge showing signs of steady improvement and then budding potential.... I was down for that kind of gamble... FVV trying to get his last big contract before things start going downhill.... i'll pass.

THIS is a reasonable argument. I don't agree with it, but it's debatable. You could also dispute the $$$...but stop with the Fultz comparisons (not you, YoYo), there are none to be made.

I'm okay with younger PG alternatives being discussed, but to me, comparing Fultz to FVV is just silly. One is an All-Star, the other is a nice story, but still one of the bottom 5 starting PGs in the league - who is completely devoid of the most pivotal weapons of the modern NBA. We should be talking about other GOOD PGs we could chase this offseason vs FVV.

Fultz is a good ball handler and (this year at least) a very good defender in Mosley's guard-aggressive scheme...That's not enough. FVV has imperfections, but there is NO comparison with Fultz. The comparisons to be discussed is "Could we get Poole and is he a PG?", "Is there any way at all to move up to get Scoot?", "Will Nick Smith be as good as FVV and when?", "Can Suggs or Cole show more in the starting PG role?", "Is Kyrie at $50m x 4 a really sound investment?"...injecting Fultz into this thread is laughable.

To violently summarize...Fultz is a lot closer to MCW than he is to FVV.

[yoyojw17]

Month of February -

20.3 ppg

6.6-18.0 fga 36.8 FG%

3.1-9.5 3pa 32.9 3pFG%

they went 6-2 though... which is great

But on a team that is more established than ours identity wise.... i would tread very carefully on thinking he could lead us to another level.... especially at his asking price.

Like.... Mikal Bridge showing signs of steady improvement and then budding potential.... I was down for that kind of gamble... FVV trying to get his last big contract before things start going downhill.... i'll pass.

THIS is a reasonable argument. I don't agree with it, but it's debatable. You could also dispute the $$$...but stop with the Fultz comparisons (not you, YoYo), there are none to be made.

I'm okay with younger PG alternatives being discussed, but to me, comparing Fultz to FVV is just silly. One is an All-Star, the other is a nice story, but still one of the bottom 5 starting PGs in the league - who is completely devoid of the most pivotal weapons of the modern NBA. We should be talking about other GOOD PGs we could chase this offseason vs FVV.

Fultz is a good ball handler and (this year at least) a very good defender in Mosley's guard-aggressive scheme...That's not enough. FVV has imperfections, but there is NO comparison with Fultz. The comparisons to be discussed is "Could we get Poole and is he a PG?", "Is there any way at all to move up to get Scoot?", "Will Nick Smith be as good as FVV and when?", "Can Suggs or Cole show more in the starting PG role?", "Is Kyrie at $50m x 4 a really sound investment?"...injecting Fultz into this thread is laughable.

To violently summarize...Fultz is a lot closer to MCW than he is to FVV.

Oh i am a Fultz lover. lol. mainly because i still don't think we've seen the best of him. and my thought of adding FVV wasn't ever to replace fultz... but to be a running-mate with him. I think they would make a great tandom in the backcourt along with jalen suggs. 3 guards with varying skills... but great defenders at all times in the backcourt. Needless to say... fultz is still a special talent in my eyes... he's just the type though that takes the backseat to let the franz and bancheros grow. And YUP... there is a part of me that believes the 3 will come around.... not in the sense of a 40% shooter... but ... a respectable one. He is a great story... and the story is still ongoing.

[Knightro]

He is just Just extemely flawed as a starting point guard. In many ways, much more flawed than Fultz, who also has significant flaws.

You might not think this, but I do respect you as a poster. I value this board having differing opinions even if I vehemently disagree with them. If we all only agreed all the time, it would just be an echo chamber and nobody really wants that to be the case.

That said...

There's just no way to genuinely suggest with a straight face that in a league where teams on average shoot 34+ three pointers a game and make them at 36% that the player who leads the Magic in total dribbles, total touches, time of possession - basically every single "the ball is in this player's hands the most" stat - yet attempts fewer than two 3PT shots per game is somehow less flawed than a former all-star veteran who has consistently played big minutes for the last four years on a team that's made multiple playoff runs.

The entire name of the NBA game is 3 point shooting. Ideally teams need both accuracy and need volume. And if a team doesn't have volume, they *really* need accuracy.

Let's cut it right down the middle...

Teams 1-15 in 3PT attempts: 11 winning records, 4 losing records
Teams 16-30 in 3PT attempts: 4 winning records, 11 losing records

Sixers, Suns, Cavs, Nuggets have winning records without volume

Teams 1-15 in 3PT accuracy: 11 winning records, 4 losing records
Teams 16-30 in 3PT accuracy: 4 winning records, 11 losing records

Wolves, Knicks, Grizzlies and Heat have winning records without accuracy

There is not a single team in the NBA with a winning record that is in the bottom half of the league in both 3PT volume and 3PT accuracy.

It's not impossible, but it is *extremely difficult* to have a good offense when your lead guard doesn't take or make threes. A lack of shooting is really the most cataclysmic flaw a lead guard can have in the modern NBA game.

[pepe1991]

Vleet pros:
shooter
good playmaker
veteran presence
championship pedigree
no off court drama


cons:
28 years old
undersized
probably massive contract

If we get Vleet i would move one of ( potentially two ) first round picks for proven solid starting level SG.
Would Isaiah Joe be aveliable? That guy is biggest advanced stats darling since Eric Bledsoe in 2014

[byeganyo]

It's not impossible, but it is *extremely difficult* to have a good offense when your lead guard doesn't take or make threes. A lack of shooting is really the most cataclysmic flaw a lead guard can have in the modern NBA game.

im not a fan of Flltz and the most simple solution is to move him, but still it has to be said that in the past 2 months (25 games) he is scoring 14.7 points on above average TS - 59,60% for Fultz, 58,10% league wise. Is it sustainable - who knows? right now he is proving that he can be ok offensive player even without a 3pt shot.

[Skybox]

It's not impossible, but it is *extremely difficult* to have a good offense when your lead guard doesn't take or make threes. A lack of shooting is really the most cataclysmic flaw a lead guard can have in the modern NBA game.

im not a fan of Flltz and the most simple solution is to move him, but still it has to be said that in the past 2 months (25 games) he is scoring 14.7 points on above average TS - 59,60% for Fultz, 58,10% league wise. Is it sustainable - who knows? right now he is proving that he can be ok offensive player even without a 3pt shot.

His individual play is not bad...it's just the limiting effect on making the game easier for the rest of the team that is most people's concern. NO floor spacing from the PG position is not sustainable. Westbrook is again the best example...the guy can put up historic numbers but in today's high-scoring NBA, it's not enough if you're not contributing to your teammates' also getting easier scoring opportunities. Fultz never draws a double and doesn't even pull his own man through picks at the perimeter...he could be scoring 18ppg+ and I'd feel the same.