The Anthony Black dunk tank

[Bensational]

AB was/is still plenty raw, but what has me still excited for his future was seeing that even last season he was a significant X factor for us. I posted this in a previous AB thread, but when AB had an above average scoring game (scored above his season average 9ppg), the team was 21-14 in those games and he averaged 14.6ppg. In the games AB scored his average or below, the team was 18-25.

In the games where AB had an above average passing game (>3apg), the team was 15-9, and he averaged 5.5apg over those games. In the games AB passed his average or below, the team was 24-30.

And in the games AB shot above his season average from 3 (>32%), the team was 21-9. In these 30 games AB averaged 1.73fg on 3 attempts per game, shooting 61% from 3. He did that for 40% of the games he played last season.

This is the proof he's capable of having those nights, and there is a strong correlation with winning as a result. We just need to get more of these better nights out of him, and more consistency.

[Blue_and_Whte]

I first need to see him be able to keep his dribble alive on a consistent basis once he crosses the halfcourt line. It was annoying watching him pick up his dribble unnecessarily so many times.

Thats because he isn’t a PG… He’s a combo guard, a connector, not a true PG. That’s why we actually need one….

[Orlando Dawg]

Within 10 days Black is on another team

[RichCollab]

AB isn’t going anywhere. We have 3 playable guards.

[eyriq]

Quick question... Can you give me a player in the last 20 years who didn't look like a functional PG in any point of his career/life actually turn into a PG years later in the NBA?

Because looking at AB he's NEVER looked like a PG to me at any point.

Jrue Holiday, Kyle Lowry, Shaun Livingston.

AB played point at Arkansas, was drafted as a point guard, and is being developed as one now. He’s not finished, but the foundation is clear. If you’ve never seen it, that says more about what you're expecting than what he's doing.

Those guys were all seen as actual PGs before they were drafted. And when they entered the league they looked like PGs. Regardless if they were any good or not at the start of their careers.

On top of that even if those assertions were true it's pretty much impossible to becoming a functional starting PG when you've never had those instincts or abilities in the first place.

This reminds me so much of the Aaron Gordon conversations 7-8 years ago when a few posters thought he'd be a superstar player similar to Paul George or Kawhi Leonard.

Its like a guy built off of pure athleticism and literally one of the worst on ball instincts and statistically one of the worst one on one players in the league was somehow going to have this tremendous offensive leap. Instead this time it's Black and he's being compared to SGA.

The player who was statistically one of the worst offensive players in the league at one point last season. The same player that lowers the Magic's offensive rating to a 97.2 when he starts. The guy who couldn't even usurp a 3rd string back up PG (which they purposely tried to give opportunity to AB) to be the starter is somehow going to be a starting PG.

Ironically, AB to me will end up kind of like AG. But he is definitely 2-3 more years away from being a consistent contributor and somewhat reliable/starting caliber player. He just needs so much more work and playing time this team can't actually invest in him since they're trying to win now.

If they didn’t see AB as a point guard, they’d be looking for one. They’re not. They moved on from Fultz and Cole, gave AB playoff reps, and haven’t added a lead guard. He didn’t rack up assists, sure, but you don’t give playoff rotation minutes to a 21-year-old unless you’re investing in his long-term role.

[CarraT]

Livingston and Lowry played PG in college and both looked legit as PG's right away.

And Holiday averaged 6.5 assists in his second season, while being younger than Black. That’s more than doubling Blacks 3.1 apg in his sophomore season. Per 36 min holiday also was a lot better his first two season.

AB is showing nothing, never did, that he’ll be a PG starter in this league. Handles, shot, quickness. Everything is way too bad.
Don’t argue with him about AB. It’s just nonsense.

I brought up Jrue as an example of a guy who didn’t have strong point guard signals early but grew into the role over time. He played off-ball at UCLA next to Collison and wasn’t seen as a true PG right away. That’s not the case with AB. He played point in high school, ran it full-time at Arkansas, was drafted as a PG, and is being developed as one now.

For a guy playing „off-ball at UCLA“ and „didn’t have strong pg signals“, it’s worth noting he averaged more assists per 40 min in his college year (5.4 to 4.5) with better A:TO ratio! Both were listed as PG/SG on most mockdrafts. And who cares about what a player was thought to be before his career begin? Ty Jerome was listet as PG before draft too, nobody thinks he’s that now.

Now let’s talk about actual NBA tape: In his first two seasons, Black hasn’t shown anything to suggest he’ll develop into a functional point guard, especially in today’s NBA, where spacing and shooting are non-negotiable for a lead ballhandler.

If we’re serious about using him at PG, his best-case scenario is Marcus Smart, and more realistically, he’s tracking closer to MCW. Statistically, he’s nowhere near Jrue Holiday, and stylistically, even further.

The good news?
It seems our coaching staff understands this, CoJo started for a reason, and the front office got the memo by adding more ballhandling/playmaking with Bane.

Black can carve out a role in this league, just not as a PG.
If he stabilizes his shooting, he has potential as a defensive wing stopper with solid connector skills. That’s valuable.

But trying to force him into the PG mold feels like déjà vu, just like with Fultz, Elfrid Payton, and even Aaron Gordon at the 3.
Some people never learn.

[eyriq]

And Holiday averaged 6.5 assists in his second season, while being younger than Black. That’s more than doubling Blacks 3.1 apg in his sophomore season. Per 36 min holiday also was a lot better his first two season.

AB is showing nothing, never did, that he’ll be a PG starter in this league. Handles, shot, quickness. Everything is way too bad.
Don’t argue with him about AB. It’s just nonsense.

I brought up Jrue as an example of a guy who didn’t have strong point guard signals early but grew into the role over time. He played off-ball at UCLA next to Collison and wasn’t seen as a true PG right away. That’s not the case with AB. He played point in high school, ran it full-time at Arkansas, was drafted as a PG, and is being developed as one now.

For a guy playing „off-ball at UCLA“ and „didn’t have strong pg signals“, why he averaged more assists per 40 min in his college years (5.4 to 4.5) with better A:TO ratio? Why were both listed as PG/SG on mockdraft? And who cares about what a player was thought to be before his career begin? Ty Jerome was listet as PG before draft too, nobody thinks he’s that now.
In his actual first two seasons of NBA, Black showed nothing to be thinking he will ever be a functional PG, especially in this era where shooting is so important. IF we will use him as a PG in the future, his best case scenario will be Marcus Smart, more realistically MCW. Statistically he is nowhere close to Jrue.
Good thing is, I’m confident our Coach understood that by starting CoJo and FO finally understood that by bringing in more guard playmaking with Bane.
Black has a future in this league. But not as a PG. He can be a defensive Wing stopper with nice connector ability, IF he stabilizes his shooting.

AB isn’t your typical high-usage, scoring-first point guard, but he does what this system needs from the position. He initiates sets, controls tempo, and moves the ball with purpose. His assist rate and passing reads reflect that. He’s not breaking guys down all game, but he creates advantages with timing and decision-making. Most importantly, he’s 21, high IQ, a hard worker, and clearly getting better. Add in elite point-of-attack defense, and you’ve got a modern, two-way lead guard...just not the kind some fans are used to.

[CarraT]

I brought up Jrue as an example of a guy who didn’t have strong point guard signals early but grew into the role over time. He played off-ball at UCLA next to Collison and wasn’t seen as a true PG right away. That’s not the case with AB. He played point in high school, ran it full-time at Arkansas, was drafted as a PG, and is being developed as one now.

For a guy playing „off-ball at UCLA“ and „didn’t have strong pg signals“, why he averaged more assists per 40 min in his college years (5.4 to 4.5) with better A:TO ratio? Why were both listed as PG/SG on mockdraft? And who cares about what a player was thought to be before his career begin? Ty Jerome was listet as PG before draft too, nobody thinks he’s that now.
In his actual first two seasons of NBA, Black showed nothing to be thinking he will ever be a functional PG, especially in this era where shooting is so important. IF we will use him as a PG in the future, his best case scenario will be Marcus Smart, more realistically MCW. Statistically he is nowhere close to Jrue.
Good thing is, I’m confident our Coach understood that by starting CoJo and FO finally understood that by bringing in more guard playmaking with Bane.
Black has a future in this league. But not as a PG. He can be a defensive Wing stopper with nice connector ability, IF he stabilizes his shooting.

AB isn’t your typical high-usage, scoring-first point guard, but he does what this system needs from the position. He initiates sets, controls tempo, and moves the ball with purpose. His assist rate and passing reads reflect that. He’s not breaking guys down all game, but he creates advantages with timing and decision-making. Most importantly, he’s 21, high IQ, a hard worker, and clearly getting better. Add in elite point-of-attack defense, and you’ve got a modern, two-way lead guard...just not the kind some fans are used to.

Calling someone „two-way“ who is statistically one of the worst offensive players in whole league.
Are you calling Anfernee Simons a two-way-player too?

Think what you want about AB, all facts won’t change your opinion obviously. Time will show you, same as with the Payton and Fultz and Gordon homers.

[eyriq]

For a guy playing „off-ball at UCLA“ and „didn’t have strong pg signals“, why he averaged more assists per 40 min in his college years (5.4 to 4.5) with better A:TO ratio? Why were both listed as PG/SG on mockdraft? And who cares about what a player was thought to be before his career begin? Ty Jerome was listet as PG before draft too, nobody thinks he’s that now.
In his actual first two seasons of NBA, Black showed nothing to be thinking he will ever be a functional PG, especially in this era where shooting is so important. IF we will use him as a PG in the future, his best case scenario will be Marcus Smart, more realistically MCW. Statistically he is nowhere close to Jrue.
Good thing is, I’m confident our Coach understood that by starting CoJo and FO finally understood that by bringing in more guard playmaking with Bane.
Black has a future in this league. But not as a PG. He can be a defensive Wing stopper with nice connector ability, IF he stabilizes his shooting.

AB isn’t your typical high-usage, scoring-first point guard, but he does what this system needs from the position. He initiates sets, controls tempo, and moves the ball with purpose. His assist rate and passing reads reflect that. He’s not breaking guys down all game, but he creates advantages with timing and decision-making. Most importantly, he’s 21, high IQ, a hard worker, and clearly getting better. Add in elite point-of-attack defense, and you’ve got a modern, two-way lead guard...just not the kind some fans are used to.

Calling someone „two-way“ who is statistically one of the worst offensive players in whole league.
Are you calling Anfernee Simons a two-way-player too?

Think what you want about AB, all facts won’t change your opinion obviously. Time will show you, same as with the Payton and Fultz and Gordon homers.

Facts like positive deltas in assist rate, A/T ratio, minutes, and scoring, along with his nominal position being point guard, Mosley playing him at point guard, the team drafting him as a point guard, clearing out Fultz and Cole, and not bringing in another lead guard are all clear signals. He’s being developed as a point guard. You can reject the plan, but don’t pretend it’s not the plan.

[basketballRob]

When do playoff teams start or even in rotation 20-21 year old PGs? It doesn't happen. They grow into that role with experience.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/anthony-black-stats-last-35-games

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using RealGM mobile app

[CarraT]

AB isn’t your typical high-usage, scoring-first point guard, but he does what this system needs from the position. He initiates sets, controls tempo, and moves the ball with purpose. His assist rate and passing reads reflect that. He’s not breaking guys down all game, but he creates advantages with timing and decision-making. Most importantly, he’s 21, high IQ, a hard worker, and clearly getting better. Add in elite point-of-attack defense, and you’ve got a modern, two-way lead guard...just not the kind some fans are used to.

Calling someone „two-way“ who is statistically one of the worst offensive players in whole league.
Are you calling Anfernee Simons a two-way-player too?

Think what you want about AB, all facts won’t change your opinion obviously. Time will show you, same as with the Payton and Fultz and Gordon homers.

Facts like positive deltas in assist rate, A/T ratio, minutes, and scoring, along with his nominal position being point guard, Mosley playing him at point guard, the team drafting him as a point guard, clearing out Fultz and Cole, and not bringing in another lead guard are all clear signals. He’s being developed as a point guard. You can reject the plan, but don’t pretend it’s not the plan.

Fultz and Cole were cleared out because they suck, not because we want to clear path for AB.
And we did bring in another lead guard. Bane is the best lead guard we could get, he’s not a true PG but still a better PG than AB will ever be.
Not I am rejecting the „plan“ of PG AB. The coach did by starting career scrub CoJo over him and FO did by bringing in lead guard Bane while keeping Suggs.

[CarraT]

When do playoff teams start or even in rotation 20-21 year old PGs? It doesn't happen. They grow into that role with experience.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/anthony-black-stats-last-35-games

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using RealGM mobile app

Well, the already mentioned Jrue Holiday (who accordingly „didn’t had strong pg signals“) was starting in playoffs in his sophomore season while being younger than black, playing the most minutes of his team in the series.

[p0peye]

I simply thinkg that extending Anthony Black as your point guard is like falling for a smile in a Bangkok bar — the truth can hit you very hard, and unfortunately for you, way too late.

[tiderulz]

Livingston and Lowry played PG in college and both looked legit as PG's right away.

And Holiday averaged 6.5 assists in his second season, while being younger than Black. That’s more than doubling Blacks 3.1 apg in his sophomore season. Per 36 min holiday also was a lot better his first two season.

AB is showing nothing, never did, that he’ll be a PG starter in this league. Handles, shot, quickness. Everything is way too bad.
Don’t argue with him about AB. It’s just nonsense.

I brought up Jrue as an example of a guy who didn’t have strong point guard signals early but grew into the role over time. He played off-ball at UCLA next to Collison and wasn’t seen as a true PG right away. That’s not the case with AB. He played point in high school, ran it full-time at Arkansas, was drafted as a PG, and is being developed as one now.

Black played PG his senior year in high school and by all scouting profiles, he was a project at PG.

[yoyojw17]

AB was/is still plenty raw, but what has me still excited for his future was seeing that even last season he was a significant X factor for us. I posted this in a previous AB thread, but when AB had an above average scoring game (scored above his season average 9ppg), the team was 21-14 in those games and he averaged 14.6ppg. In the games AB scored his average or below, the team was 18-25.

In the games where AB had an above average passing game (>3apg), the team was 15-9, and he averaged 5.5apg over those games. In the games AB passed his average or below, the team was 24-30.

And in the games AB shot above his season average from 3 (>32%), the team was 21-9. In these 30 games AB averaged 1.73fg on 3 attempts per game, shooting 61% from 3. He did that for 40% of the games he played last season.

This is the proof he's capable of having those nights, and there is a strong correlation with winning as a result. We just need to get more of these better nights out of him, and more consistency.

Yup.... And with experience .... Those averages will go up and higher quality games that truly impacts the team will become more frequent! And, I Iove this. It's not just empty numbers ... He plays well... The team plays well. The teams on those days look even more aggressive and dominating on those nights. It's things like this that makes the team mortgage their future picks instead of current players.

Unless something amazing or "surefire" comes along I personally feel as though they have trust with all of the guys that are on the team and will continue the evaluation as they grow.

[basketballRob]

When do playoff teams start or even in rotation 20-21 year old PGs? It doesn't happen. They grow into that role with experience.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/anthony-black-stats-last-35-games

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using RealGM mobile app

Well, the already mentioned Jrue Holiday (who accordingly „didn’t had strong pg signals“) was starting in playoffs in his sophomore season while being younger than black, playing the most minutes of his team in the series.

1 in the last 15 years?

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using RealGM mobile app

[JF5]

Jrue Holiday, Kyle Lowry, Shaun Livingston.

AB played point at Arkansas, was drafted as a point guard, and is being developed as one now. He’s not finished, but the foundation is clear. If you’ve never seen it, that says more about what you're expecting than what he's doing.

Those guys were all seen as actual PGs before they were drafted. And when they entered the league they looked like PGs. Regardless if they were any good or not at the start of their careers.

On top of that even if those assertions were true it's pretty much impossible to becoming a functional starting PG when you've never had those instincts or abilities in the first place.

This reminds me so much of the Aaron Gordon conversations 7-8 years ago when a few posters thought he'd be a superstar player similar to Paul George or Kawhi Leonard.

Its like a guy built off of pure athleticism and literally one of the worst on ball instincts and statistically one of the worst one on one players in the league was somehow going to have this tremendous offensive leap. Instead this time it's Black and he's being compared to SGA.

The player who was statistically one of the worst offensive players in the league at one point last season. The same player that lowers the Magic's offensive rating to a 97.2 when he starts. The guy who couldn't even usurp a 3rd string back up PG (which they purposely tried to give opportunity to AB) to be the starter is somehow going to be a starting PG.

Ironically, AB to me will end up kind of like AG. But he is definitely 2-3 more years away from being a consistent contributor and somewhat reliable/starting caliber player. He just needs so much more work and playing time this team can't actually invest in him since they're trying to win now.

If they didn’t see AB as a point guard, they’d be looking for one. They’re not. They moved on from Fultz and Cole, gave AB playoff reps, and haven’t added a lead guard. He didn’t rack up assists, sure, but you don’t give playoff rotation minutes to a 21-year-old unless you’re investing in his long-term role.

Walter Clayton Jr, Jace Richardson, Tyus Jones, Malcolm Brogdon are all rumored to be options.

Also, bench offense needed a playmaking scorer. Given the objective of adding more offense for team that's been one of the worst the last few seasons. You really believe they'll just not add 2 or 3 scoring threats off the bench?

[VFX]

When do playoff teams start or even in rotation 20-21 year old PGs? It doesn't happen. They grow into that role with experience.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/anthony-black-stats-last-35-games

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using RealGM mobile app

Well, the already mentioned Jrue Holiday (who accordingly „didn’t had strong pg signals“) was starting in playoffs in his sophomore season while being younger than black, playing the most minutes of his team in the series.

1 in the last 15 years?

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using RealGM mobile app

The east is so bad that IF the Chicago Bulls made the playoffs with Josh GIddey (age 22) and Coby White (25) this season your entire argument would fall apart. They surged too late and missed it.

Also, speaking of Giddey. He is who people thought AB was or should have been. 22 year old 6'8 point guard that averages 7.2 assists per game last season in 30mpg against STARTERS. Anthony Black averages 3.1, at age 21, in 24mpg against BENCHES.

Thats probably upsetting for AB advocates to hear, but its the truth. If he had anything north of 5.2 assists per game I could maybe take him seriously as a guy labeled a "point guard".

[RichCollab]

Those guys were all seen as actual PGs before they were drafted. And when they entered the league they looked like PGs. Regardless if they were any good or not at the start of their careers.

On top of that even if those assertions were true it's pretty much impossible to becoming a functional starting PG when you've never had those instincts or abilities in the first place.

This reminds me so much of the Aaron Gordon conversations 7-8 years ago when a few posters thought he'd be a superstar player similar to Paul George or Kawhi Leonard.

Its like a guy built off of pure athleticism and literally one of the worst on ball instincts and statistically one of the worst one on one players in the league was somehow going to have this tremendous offensive leap. Instead this time it's Black and he's being compared to SGA.

The player who was statistically one of the worst offensive players in the league at one point last season. The same player that lowers the Magic's offensive rating to a 97.2 when he starts. The guy who couldn't even usurp a 3rd string back up PG (which they purposely tried to give opportunity to AB) to be the starter is somehow going to be a starting PG.

Ironically, AB to me will end up kind of like AG. But he is definitely 2-3 more years away from being a consistent contributor and somewhat reliable/starting caliber player. He just needs so much more work and playing time this team can't actually invest in him since they're trying to win now.

If they didn’t see AB as a point guard, they’d be looking for one. They’re not. They moved on from Fultz and Cole, gave AB playoff reps, and haven’t added a lead guard. He didn’t rack up assists, sure, but you don’t give playoff rotation minutes to a 21-year-old unless you’re investing in his long-term role.

Walter Clayton Jr, Jace Richardson, Tyus Jones, Malcolm Brogdon are all rumored to be options.

Also, bench offense needed a playmaking scorer. Given the objective of adding more offense for team that's been one of the worst the last few seasons. You really believe they'll just not add 2 or 3 scoring threats off the bench?

Money is tight. So it’s going to be interesting. Do they make another trade?

[CarraT]

When do playoff teams start or even in rotation 20-21 year old PGs? It doesn't happen. They grow into that role with experience.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/anthony-black-stats-last-35-games

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using RealGM mobile app

Well, the already mentioned Jrue Holiday (who accordingly „didn’t had strong pg signals“) was starting in playoffs in his sophomore season while being younger than black, playing the most minutes of his team in the series.

1 in the last 15 years?

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using RealGM mobile app

There are actually plenty of examples, take Westbrook or Trae Young, for instance. Both were young point guards who played significant roles in the playoffs early in their careers.

On the flip side, can you name examples of point guards who made the playoffs at age 21, didn’t play a meaningful role, and still went on to become high-level players later on?

Because that’s the real question here, not just making the playoffs, but whether you’re trusted to contribute when it matters. If you’re a young PG and the team intentionally limits your role in the postseason, that says something about your readiness, and possibly your ceiling.