Official Speculation Thread ‘18-19’: XIX: Rise of the BIG

[magicman112]

Cliff didn't hold anything back

“You cant play like that,” Clifford said. “Not back on defense. Disorganized on offense...48 minutes, you can’t play five guys. You have to step in. They’re good enough players. It’s not like they’re not capable. But they have to play, and they have to play well.”


“The expectations are so much different than when I was here before,” Clifford said. “You know, those guys didn’t play well back then, they heard about it. And that’s how it’s supposed to be. And these guys need to hear about it too because they’re good enough to play better too. And I need to hear about it, too. That’s all fine. That’s part of this. But to say, let’s find out what’s good, let’s not. Let’s just tell the story, OK. The bench was embarrassing. It was embarrassing. That’s it.”

Stan was the best coach this team had and I respected him because he was fair and blunt. No sugar coating. Cliff strikes me as similar. Prob not as good as Stan but he has my respect and I do like the guy. This team desperately needs to be held accountable.

Wasn't a big fan of Clifford being hired but one thing I do like about him is not being afraid to call guys out. This group needs some of that.

[NavalAviator94]

Honestly, I don’t know how good of a coach Clifford really is. However, everything he’s trying to do is something this team must do no matter who the coach is. I like his style for this group. When we get a real team together then we can really bitch about nuance.

[Def Swami]

Bill Simmons said he didn't believe Rozier would be on the Celtics within 10 days on his last BS Podcast. Thought that was interesting. Still plugged in pretty well with the C's.

[OrlandO]

Every year posters say we won’t even break 60 points if Vuc is out and every year we look the same on offense when he doesn’t play.

They don't play the same. They still put up some points because they play faster, but that's also why they give up easier baskets on the other end. We go from bad to worse overall. I would argue it's worse for development as it encourages developing players to focus more on chucking up bad shots than playing defense.

I dunno... I feel like if we were to play faster and go with youth then at least we would have a product on the floor that would at least be an exciting product to watch on the floor. Most fans are not interested in wins right now anyways. It would give us something to realistically cheer for because any progress made would be a benefit to the future core.

You say you're worried about our guys becoming chuckers but that can also be a big contributor to their development. KD applauded Dipo for having the talent to take shots. He called it a talent and I never thought of it like that before. It does take a special player to even have the courage to take on the responsibility that comes with missed baskets. I remember Dipo being called a chucker here. Now, it's paid off. No bad habits developed.

Sometimes in fact, the failure to deliver can be a high motivation factor if it pushes them to practice harder. This goes back to character. Do we believe in the character and work ethic of our young guys? This is why evaluating character is so important in the draft process.

Oppositely, we've seen the frustrations from fans when AG is not being aggressive enough. Sometimes I wonder if that's because he's too scared to miss and make a mistake or if it's attributed to not having the experience as a younger player to have the freedom to work through his mistakes. Now that he's a 5th year player off a big new contract, the expectations are higher for him to deliver. It's been noticed that it looks like he's trying too hard early in this season. People are trying to guess on his inconsistencies.

You made a good point earlier about the minutes restriction on Bamba being a good thing because his body is not ready. Well, I totally get that. But we can continue to split his minutes with Birch. The problem with Vuc is that he is too involved in the identiy of the team and it behooves us to move on from him. Missing his offense doesn't matter because winning doesn't matter.

Watching Vuc help us win games has no benefit if he won't be here next year.

Was it fun watching Gordon struggle to look like he belonged in the NBA while not caring about defense when he was playing first option last season? I mean what exactly do you expect him to do with his current skillset and little to no shooters and playmakers around him? It's bound to get ugly again. How poorly would Gordon have to play as a top option for you to consider it bad for his development?

I actually like the role Gordon's in right now... seems with the starting lineup clifford has him trying to play within the flow of the offense more and then he gets extended play as the lead with the bench unit against other benches. He just needs to figure out how to take better advantage of his time against bench players like Simmons did last season and Ross is doing this season.

Gordon is not Oladipo. Different skills and different path to develop. And development happens in the off season... if Gordon didn't come into this season with new skills they're not all of a sudden going to develop during the season just because you throw more touches at him. Hopefully he makes a more noticeable jump next season because he's probably going to have to prove he can play top option decently or else get traded.

[pepe1991]

People still banking on that Gordon new Oladipo crap?
You are running out of time, 5th year was year when OLadipo become allstar.

[VFX]

People still banking on that Gordon new Oladipo crap?
You are running out of time, 5th year was year when OLadipo become allstar.

It’s been over.

[BadMofoPimp]

People still banking on that Gordon new Oladipo crap?
You are running out of time, 5th year was year when OLadipo become allstar.

It’s been over.

Voting hasn't even started yet. AG could still be an All-Star this year and most likely will become an All-Star if traded this early in the season.

[MagicFan101]

People still banking on that Gordon new Oladipo crap?
You are running out of time, 5th year was year when OLadipo become allstar.

It’s been over.

Voting hasn't even started yet. AG could still be an All-Star this year and most likely will become an All-Star if traded this early in the season.

Dipo is 3 years older than Gordon.

If Gordon has stayed in college as long as Dipo did then he would be at the start of year 3 in the NBA.

Year 5 is year 5 and we know a lot of Gordon to make predictions from. People should use that, not some rediculous Dipo comp.

[pepe1991]

People still banking on that Gordon new Oladipo crap?
You are running out of time, 5th year was year when OLadipo become allstar.

It’s been over.

Voting hasn't even started yet. AG could still be an All-Star this year and most likely will become an All-Star if traded this early in the season.

Drummond
Dipo
Kemba
Kawhi
Griffin
Wall/Beal
Simmons
Embiid
Irving
Giannis
Middelton

Ahead of him:
Lowry
Lavine
Levert
Whiteside ( 14-15-3,4 ,leading league in blocks and 2# in rebounds right now )

There is only place for 12 playrs, Dipo,Irving, Giannis, Embiid and Kawhi are locked as starters. That's 5 spots gone.
Simmons is one of most hyped players in decade,he is locked, Griffin can be starter given how he plays.
Kemba is playing out of his mind.
Middelton is averaging 20-5-5 on 1# team on East
Lowry leads league in assists.
Levert,Lavine and Hardaway are all 20+ ppg scorers right now i guess at least one or two will get in
Drummond and Whiteseade dominate big man categories.
At least one of Wall/Beal will get in.
There is even some outside chance that Ibaka gets there (18-9 ) given Raptors are beasting.
I assume that Celtics fanbase will vote a lot for Tatum

It's not that easy to get to ASG ,especially because fans still don't have as much influence on choice as people think.

[Knightro]

The odds of Gordon breaking out in Year 5 like Oladipo did are slim anyway because what Oladipo did RARELY happens in the NBA.

A guy becoming a top 15-20 NBA player on his third team after four middling years is so unbelievably rare that it's unfair to expect anyone to replicate it any time soon.

[fendilim]

It’s been over.

Voting hasn't even started yet. AG could still be an All-Star this year and most likely will become an All-Star if traded this early in the season.

Dipo is 3 years older than Gordon.

If Gordon has stayed in college as long as Dipo did then he would be at the start of year 3 in the NBA.

Year 5 is year 5 and we know a lot of Gordon to make predictions from. People should use that, not some rediculous Dipo comp.

Dipo at year 1 in the NBA is still better than Gordon at Year 4.

[MagicFan101]

Voting hasn't even started yet. AG could still be an All-Star this year and most likely will become an All-Star if traded this early in the season.

Dipo is 3 years older than Gordon.

If Gordon has stayed in college as long as Dipo did then he would be at the start of year 3 in the NBA.

Year 5 is year 5 and we know a lot of Gordon to make predictions from. People should use that, not some rediculous Dipo comp.

Dipo at year 1 in the NBA is still better than Gordon at Year 4.

Maybe. Maybe not.

I’m talking about how using Dipo NBA Year 5 vs. AG NBA Year 5 for the two as the end all metric is ... well, to avoid forum no-no words ... it is just PEPE!

[rcklsscognition]

Gordon is shooting 35% from 3 and usage is down 2% from last season and he's still only playing 32 minutes a game. I think they need to do a better job finding ways for the ball to end up in his hands for a shot attempt of some sort.

[pepe1991]

Dipo is 3 years older than Gordon.

If Gordon has stayed in college as long as Dipo did then he would be at the start of year 3 in the NBA.

Year 5 is year 5 and we know a lot of Gordon to make predictions from. People should use that, not some rediculous Dipo comp.

Dipo at year 1 in the NBA is still better than Gordon at Year 4.

Maybe. Maybe not.

I’m talking about how using Dipo NBA Year 5 vs. AG NBA Year 5 for the two as the end all metric is ... well, to avoid forum no-no words ... it is just PEPE!

Years of experience matter more than how old somebody is. We today see players that peak in mid 20s.
D-Will, Howard, K Love... You can make strong case that both Howard and Love played their best seasons when they were 22-23 years old.
it's easy to add Ibaka, Jennings, MCW, Parsons,Brandon Knight, Faried, D Rose to that list as well. Some due injuries, some due inability to take it to another level.

In terms of raw numers, Oladipo's second season was kind a better than any season Gordon had to this point.

it is just PEPE!

Yea ,person without blind love for players , judging them for what they are, not what they might become despite zero proof or evidence that they have what it takes to take next step.
Thank you. It is just- Pepe.

[magicman112]

The odds of Gordon breaking out in Year 5 like Oladipo did are slim anyway because what Oladipo did RARELY happens in the NBA.

A guy becoming a top 15-20 NBA player on his third team after four middling years is so unbelievably rare that it's unfair to expect anyone to replicate it any time soon.

And there were circumstances behind it all. Dipo goes to OKC and plays with one of the best at his position in the league in Russ and has a whole year to learn from him and see how he does it and what it takes. Then he gets traded to Indiana where he was a star at IU so he's back in a comfort zone and he gets handed the keys to the team.

[pepe1991]

The odds of Gordon breaking out in Year 5 like Oladipo did are slim anyway because what Oladipo did RARELY happens in the NBA.

A guy becoming a top 15-20 NBA player on his third team after four middling years is so unbelievably rare that it's unfair to expect anyone to replicate it any time soon.

And there were circumstances behind it all. Dipo goes to OKC and plays with one of the best at his position in the league in Russ and has a whole year to learn from him and see how he does it and what it takes. Then he gets traded to Indiana where he was a star at IU so he's back in a comfort zone and he gets handed the keys to the team.

I think huge for him was playing on good team, when he got to playoffs he was terrible ( with OKC ), and was probably overwhelmed how good others are when games that matter start.
He was matched up vs Harden and Eric Gordon.
And he averaged 10,8 ppg on 34% FG and 24% for 3.
I guess that was wake-up call for him.

[tiderulz]

Gordon is shooting 35% from 3 and usage is down 2% from last season and he's still only playing 32 minutes a game. I think they need to do a better job finding ways for the ball to end up in his hands for a shot attempt of some sort.

well, its hard because he cant create his own shot very well.

[OrlandO]

People still banking on that Gordon new Oladipo crap?
You are running out of time, 5th year was year when OLadipo become allstar.

To be fair, Gordon is 23.... Oladipo was 25 when he finally became a good shooter. The NBA experience matters, but I think age does, too. Tobias was also 25 and in his 7th year when he finally became a good shooter. I think Gordon will eventually become a good shooter, but it's not a given to happen this year or next year or the year after. He came in as a project and was always going to be a late bloomer at best. If or when it does happen it could do wonders for his game. He's on the clock though... most teams are not going to sit around and wait two full contracts. How long will weltman give him? I'm thinking summer 2020 is his deadline.

[magicman112]

People still banking on that Gordon new Oladipo crap?
You are running out of time, 5th year was year when OLadipo become allstar.

To be fair, Gordon is 23.... Oladipo was 25 when he finally became a good shooter. The NBA experience matters, but I think age does, too. Tobias was also 25 and in his 7th year when he finally became a good shooter. I think Gordon will eventually become a good shooter, but it's not a given to happen this year or next year or the year after. He came in as a project and was always going to be a late bloomer at best. If or when it does happen it could do wonders for his game. He's on the clock though... most teams are not going to sit around and wait two full contracts. How long will weltman give him? I'm thinking summer 2020 is his deadline.

Yes I think that's about it. The contract he signed is a tradeable contract.

[pepe1991]

People still banking on that Gordon new Oladipo crap?
You are running out of time, 5th year was year when OLadipo become allstar.

To be fair, Gordon is 23.... Oladipo was 25 when he finally became a good shooter. The NBA experience matters, but I think age does, too. Tobias was also 25 and in his 7th year when he finally became a good shooter. I think Gordon will eventually become a good shooter, but it's not a given to happen this year or next year or the year after. He came in as a project and was always going to be a late bloomer at best. If or when it does happen it could do wonders for his game. He's on the clock though... most teams are not going to sit around and wait two full contracts. How long will weltman give him? I'm thinking summer 2020 is his deadline.

Oladipo shot 34,8% for 3 in third year, at age of 23, Gordon is probably hitting that percentages this year,also at age of 23.
I think there are few key overlooked things here:
- "star" = lot of points. Right now 53 players average 17 ppg or more, it's nothing special naw more to hit even 20ppg. 32 players in this moment are averaging 20 or more. Lot of them are no stars by any streach of imagination. Mirotić,Lavine, Levert, Hardaway, Josh Richardson, Gallinari, Lou Wiliams (19,2ppg), Harris are just some of the names

- contribution to wins. It's almost like Wiggins /Booker thing with Gordon and many other young players. Their stats go up, team never sees any improvment from it.

Pace.
This is ridiculous. When you hear " 24-27 ppg" you think about top tear star, right. How about Zach Lavine, Griffin, Kemba, Derozan and Tim Hardaway?

That's why there is no more co-relation between player having superstar numbers and that team winning . It's almost opposite. One player getting god-like stats and team sucks more than ever. And that's where Oladipo sets himself apart from this new wave of "stars" who put up 25 ppg on 25 wins teams.