Official Spec Thread: I guess now's the time to blow this dumpster fire up and bask in the glow!

[thelead]

2013- 2015 Magic were activilty tanking. Fact. Especially in first two years. Worst nba record, third worst nba record and fifth worst nba record are proof of it.

2017 and 2018- fifth worst record , fifth worst record. Not active tanking like they do today, but sucking and late season tanking rosters ( as i've already debunked claim of not tanking in 2018, when in fact Magic were starting Mack, hezonja, Biyombo and Purvis).

We already handed 2 broken players contracts they have no business getting on open market. So new circle of sucking already started.

3 and half yeras investment into each and every year top 3 worst PG most defenetly played into Magic suckingess.
Having no starting level PG since Jameer Nelson 10 years ago, despite PG being most important position in modern basketball. most defenetly played into fact Magic keep on being terrible team for a decade, and still suck.

Minnesota has had some of the worst records lately and they arent tanking. Sacramento has been picking high and they arent tanking. they are just bad. Orlando with Vuc/AG/Fournier as their best players isnt tanking, they just arent good. Add in injuries and questionable draft picks, and the team loses a lot.

Magic, unlike them, when healthy, made playoffs, and even climbed over .500 record once.
Sacramento didn't finish with positive record since 2005-06.
Minessota had positive recordd once in 18 years.

I'm not against rebuild, i'm debating notion that Magic didn't tank in past .Magic had worst record in basketball in 2012-13 and third worst in 2013-14. And that was -tanking.
Later, being bad AND tanking Magic finished with top 5 worst record -three separate times from 2015 to 2018.

So... to recap... when our sucky, broken players were not injured we made the playoffs...

and when the sucky broken players were injured, we became one of the worst teams in the nba...

Which one is it? Does Fultz and JI suck or do they help turn a bad team into a marginal playoff team?

[zaymon]

Minnesota has had some of the worst records lately and they arent tanking. Sacramento has been picking high and they arent tanking. they are just bad. Orlando with Vuc/AG/Fournier as their best players isnt tanking, they just arent good. Add in injuries and questionable draft picks, and the team loses a lot.

Magic, unlike them, when healthy, made playoffs, and even climbed over .500 record once.
Sacramento didn't finish with positive record since 2005-06.
Minessota had positive recordd once in 18 years.

I'm not against rebuild, i'm debating notion that Magic didn't tank in past .Magic had worst record in basketball in 2012-13 and third worst in 2013-14. And that was -tanking.
Later, being bad AND tanking Magic finished with top 5 worst record -three separate times from 2015 to 2018.

So... to recap... when our sucky, broken players were not injured we made the playoffs...

and when the sucky broken players were injured, we became one of the worst teams in the nba...

Which one is it? Does Fultz and JI suck or do they help turn a bad team into a marginal playoff team?

I love Isaac, and still have some hope for Fultz but they were not the reason we made playoffs. It was mainly Vucevic and Fournier. Young guys only made it harder for them.

[thelead]

Magic, unlike them, when healthy, made playoffs, and even climbed over .500 record once.
Sacramento didn't finish with positive record since 2005-06.
Minessota had positive recordd once in 18 years.

I'm not against rebuild, i'm debating notion that Magic didn't tank in past .Magic had worst record in basketball in 2012-13 and third worst in 2013-14. And that was -tanking.
Later, being bad AND tanking Magic finished with top 5 worst record -three separate times from 2015 to 2018.

So... to recap... when our sucky, broken players were not injured we made the playoffs...

and when the sucky broken players were injured, we became one of the worst teams in the nba...

Which one is it? Does Fultz and JI suck or do they help turn a bad team into a marginal playoff team?

I love Isaac, and still have some hope for Fultz but they were not the reason we made playoffs. It was mainly Vucevic and Fournier. Young guys only made it harder for them.

So why couldn't Vuc and Evan win more games this season?

[zaymon]

So... to recap... when our sucky, broken players were not injured we made the playoffs...

and when the sucky broken players were injured, we became one of the worst teams in the nba...

Which one is it? Does Fultz and JI suck or do they help turn a bad team into a marginal playoff team?

I love Isaac, and still have some hope for Fultz but they were not the reason we made playoffs. It was mainly Vucevic and Fournier. Young guys only made it harder for them.

So why couldn't Vuc and Evan win more games this season?

Do i really need to answer this ? Fournier was in and out of the lineup, when he was in we were decent. We had no point guard for long stretches. When we had point guard it was rookie or g leaguer. We had no healthy forwards. Our prime healthy wing was Bacon. Did you forgot ? It was not so long ago, only a month.

[thelead]

I love Isaac, and still have some hope for Fultz but they were not the reason we made playoffs. It was mainly Vucevic and Fournier. Young guys only made it harder for them.

So why couldn't Vuc and Evan win more games this season?

Do i really need to answer this ? Fournier was in and out of the lineup, when he was in we were decent. We had no point guard for long stretches. When we had point guard it was rookie or g leaguer. We had no healthy forwards. Our prime healthy wing was Bacon. Did you forgot ? It was not so long ago, only a month.

Got it. So Evan is a superstar and DJ was a star as well. The same Evan that is a bench player for the 31-27 Celtics and the same DJ that is not playing for the tanking Rockets. That's the difference between being a playoff team and being terrible for the Orlando Magic.

[drsd]

Do i really need to answer this ? Fournier was in and out of the lineup, when he was in we were decent. We had no point guard for long stretches. When we had point guard it was rookie or g leaguer. We had no healthy forwards. Our prime healthy wing was Bacon. Did you forgot ? It was not so long ago, only a month.

Got it. So Evan is a superstar and DJ was a star as well. The same Evan that is a bench player for the 31-27 Celtics and the same DJ that is not playing for the tanking Rockets. That's the difference between being a playoff team and being terrible for the Orlando Magic.

If Fultz, Gordon and Fournier were healthy all season, Orlando was win track to be the 6-seed and was a lock to be at least a play-in team.

The real question would be, then what? Orlando was not going to be able to afford Fournier, and Gordon was still a poor mate next to Isaac. So the Magic would have slogged through 2021/22 to another mediocre record where the questions would have been about the 2022 off-season - all season long. Management read the tea-leaves that an elite team was not possible before 2022 anyhow, so decided to do more than shuffle deck chairs.

..

[thelead]

Do i really need to answer this ? Fournier was in and out of the lineup, when he was in we were decent. We had no point guard for long stretches. When we had point guard it was rookie or g leaguer. We had no healthy forwards. Our prime healthy wing was Bacon. Did you forgot ? It was not so long ago, only a month.

Got it. So Evan is a superstar and DJ was a star as well. The same Evan that is a bench player for the 31-27 Celtics and the same DJ that is not playing for the tanking Rockets. That's the difference between being a playoff team and being terrible for the Orlando Magic.

If Fultz, Gordon and Fournier were healthy all season, Orlando was win track to be the 6-seed and was a lock to be at least a play-in team.

The real question would be, then what? Orlando was not going to be able to afford Fournier, and Gordon was still a poor mate next to Isaac. So the Magic would have slogged through 2021/22 to another mediocre record where the questions would have been about the 2022 off-season - all season long. Management read the tea-leaves that an elite team was not possible before 2022 anyhow, so decided to do more than shuffle deck chairs.

..

I agree but wouldn't be happy with being an average team while being capped out. I just find it funny that Evan's injuries, who played in more than half of our games, is now an excuse for us being a bad team when we were 13-17 with him. My point was that Fultz and JI are actually difference makers. It wasn't to call Vuc and Evan bad. Vuc and Evan had their warts that were hidden by Fultz and JI. But I can actually admit (unlike the Vuc and Evan homers), that Vuc and Evan hid Fultz' and JI's warts as well.

[basketballRob]

Got it. So Evan is a superstar and DJ was a star as well. The same Evan that is a bench player for the 31-27 Celtics and the same DJ that is not playing for the tanking Rockets. That's the difference between being a playoff team and being terrible for the Orlando Magic.

If Fultz, Gordon and Fournier were healthy all season, Orlando was win track to be the 6-seed and was a lock to be at least a play-in team.

The real question would be, then what? Orlando was not going to be able to afford Fournier, and Gordon was still a poor mate next to Isaac. So the Magic would have slogged through 2021/22 to another mediocre record where the questions would have been about the 2022 off-season - all season long. Management read the tea-leaves that an elite team was not possible before 2022 anyhow, so decided to do more than shuffle deck chairs.

..

I agree but wouldn't be happy with being an average team while being capped out. I just find it funny that Evan's injuries, who played in more than half of our games, is now an excuse for us being a bad team when we were 13-17 with him. My point was that Fultz and JI are actually difference makers. It wasn't to call Vuc and Evan bad. Vuc and Evan had their warts that were hidden by Fultz and JI. But I can actually admit (unlike the Vuc and Evan homers), that Vuc and Evan hid Fultz' and JI's warts as well.

You aren't calling Vuc, Fournier, and AG bad, but they're saying Fultz and Isaac made no difference in winning games.

That's for some guys that only had a couple wins over 500 teams. One against the Warriors, where Okeke hit like a bunch of big shots in the 4th quarter and against the Suns in the last game. Okeke was 4-4 from 3 against the Suns, and scored 17 in 20 minutes. Like 12 of our last 14 games are against 500 teams. So they also had the easier part of the schedule.

Edit: The Warriors are no longer a 500 team.






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[VFX]

The argument always comes back full circle.

Orlando has been unwatchable for 4 of the last 7 years for a few reasons. The style of play was boring, the talent level was low, and the outcome was a forgone conclusion.

Why then would anyone give a **** to actively watch the same thing over and over? Outside of picking up Fultz, there was limited variability with future outcome other than praying AG or Isaac took a leap. AG didn’t and Isaac was always injured, so what else is there to say.

It’s hilarious to see people bitching about this iteration of Magic basketball being unwatchable. Especially when the rest of the fans had to endure 7 years of mindless incoherent roster construction as it ran itself into a wall repeatedly.

You reap what you sow.
These moves should have happened in 2017.

Now buck up buttercup and enjoy the inevitable result of watching Fournier and Vucevic led teams for nearly a decade.

[pepe1991]

You can paint half of nba in that fashion if you really want to.
76ers need to rebuild because their current stars are good enough to get swept in first round ( happend last year).
Bucks need rebuild because their financial sctructure will never make them contenders.
Knicks need to rebuild because they will never win anything with Randle being best player.
Atlanta needs to rebuild because timeline is bad. Trae is 22, Bogdan is 29 and as soon as they sign Collins their salary is locked for years.
Boston needs to rebuild because their best players play same position and they have no money to build roster around them.
Miami needs to rebuild because Adebayo is like 8 years younger than Butler.
Hornets need to rebuild because their best and second best player are 10 yeras apart in age.
Indiana needs to rebuild because Sabonis and Brogdon won't win them championship.
Toronto needs rebuild because Lowry is old.
Wizards need rebuild because they have present nor future.
Bulls need rebuild because they can't build winning roster around Lavine, who is UFA soon.
Cavs need rebuild because they have nothing to build.


Suns need rebuild because Booker will leave as soon Chris Paul declines (or retires) .
Nuggets need rebuild because their second best player just torn ACL and they won't compete for title for next 2 seasons ( next year already lost).
Blazers need rebuild because they are going nowhere.
Dallas needs rebuild because Porzingis is broken
Memphis needs rebuild because Jackson is broken
Warriors need rebuild because Curry is old and Klay is broken
Spurs need rebuild because Pop will die from old age
Pelicans need rebuild because their best 3 players don't fit
Kings need rebuild because best 2 players are both PGs


You can make argument for virtually every NBA team for rebuild. You can make argument for every claim ever, if you are smart and know how to manipulate facts...

[pepe1991]

The argument always comes back full circle.

Orlando has been unwatchable for 4 of the last 7 years for a few reasons. The style of play was boring, the talent level was low, and the outcome was a forgone conclusion.

Why then would anyone give a **** to actively watch the same thing over and over? Outside of picking up Fultz, there was limited variability with future outcome other than praying AG or Isaac took a leap. AG didn’t and Isaac was always injured, so what else is there to say.

It’s hilarious to see people bitching about this iteration of Magic basketball being unwatchable. Especially when the rest of the fans had to endure 7 years of mindless incoherent roster construction as it ran itself into a wall repeatedly.

You reap what you sow.
These moves should have happened in 2017.

Now buck up buttercup and enjoy the inevitable result of watching Fournier and Vucevic led teams for nearly a decade.

Sooo let me get it straight ,adding 1# pick, 6th pick and 6th pick didn't raise team ceiling?

So that makes tanking as rebuild very **** strategy, if adding 3 super high picks doesn't do jack $hit for you, doesn't it?

[GelbeWand09]

I'm on the brink to post Evan's impact metrics over his time here (small hint, not pretty) & the correlation of our 2 playoff ''runs'' & our defensive efficiency over these 2 years compared to the rest of the Vuc/Evan era & which player was only here/healthy exactly over that time span or the influence of the bench to our 42:40 season, or the impact on there new teams, or that we doesnt missed a beat when Vuc was injured over a month last year, or how impactful a average eff. high usage big with bad defense is, but they are gone & and i leave the usual suspects in there beliefs that we reached the PO because of them.

And to the start of this topic:

Our playoff runs compared to Sacramento.
8th place WC / our record
18/19: 48:34 / 42:40
19/20: 35:39 / 33:40

We woudnt have reached the playoffs directly (only the play in last year) in the western conference both years, despite the easier schedule.

[VFX]

The argument always comes back full circle.

Orlando has been unwatchable for 4 of the last 7 years for a few reasons. The style of play was boring, the talent level was low, and the outcome was a forgone conclusion.

Why then would anyone give a **** to actively watch the same thing over and over? Outside of picking up Fultz, there was limited variability with future outcome other than praying AG or Isaac took a leap. AG didn’t and Isaac was always injured, so what else is there to say.

It’s hilarious to see people bitching about this iteration of Magic basketball being unwatchable. Especially when the rest of the fans had to endure 7 years of mindless incoherent roster construction as it ran itself into a wall repeatedly.

You reap what you sow.
These moves should have happened in 2017.

Now buck up buttercup and enjoy the inevitable result of watching Fournier and Vucevic led teams for nearly a decade.

Sooo let me get it straight ,adding 1# pick, 6th pick and 6th pick didn't raise team ceiling?

So that makes tanking as rebuild very **** strategy, if adding 3 super high picks doesn't do jack $hit for you, doesn't it?

Previously “bust” labeled #1 pick we didn’t draft.
#6 pick that can’t stay healthy.
#6 pick on a Center in a 4 player draft.

Context.

Nobody claimed the FO made good use of their high picks. That’s not the argument.

Those #6 picks were the result of poor drafting and not actually committing to tanking (keeping AG, Vuc, and Fournier way to **** long).

[Just Plain Mark]

The argument always comes back full circle.

Orlando has been unwatchable for 4 of the last 7 years for a few reasons. The style of play was boring, the talent level was low, and the outcome was a forgone conclusion.

Why then would anyone give a **** to actively watch the same thing over and over? Outside of picking up Fultz, there was limited variability with future outcome other than praying AG or Isaac took a leap. AG didn’t and Isaac was always injured, so what else is there to say.

It’s hilarious to see people bitching about this iteration of Magic basketball being unwatchable. Especially when the rest of the fans had to endure 7 years of mindless incoherent roster construction as it ran itself into a wall repeatedly.

You reap what you sow.
These moves should have happened in 2017.

Now buck up buttercup and enjoy the inevitable result of watching Fournier and Vucevic led teams for nearly a decade.

Sooo let me get it straight ,adding 1# pick, 6th pick and 6th pick didn't raise team ceiling?

So that makes tanking as rebuild very **** strategy, if adding 3 super high picks doesn't do jack $hit for you, doesn't it?

No, what makes a poor rebuilding strategy is obtaining bad players, regardless of whether the method of obtaining players is the draft, trades or FA. If the front office can't evaluate players well enough to draft successfully, why would those same front office be successfully at evaluating FA's or players that are trade targets?

Signing Bismack Biyombo didn't help the Magic. Trading for Serge Ibaka didn't help the Magic. Do those examples prove that FA and trades are poor rebuilding models?

[VFX]

You can paint half of nba in that fashion if you really want to.
76ers need to rebuild because their current stars are good enough to get swept in first round ( happend last year).
Bucks need rebuild because their financial sctructure will never make them contenders.
Knicks need to rebuild because they will never win anything with Randle being best player.
Atlanta needs to rebuild because timeline is bad. Trae is 22, Bogdan is 29 and as soon as they sign Collins their salary is locked for years.
Boston needs to rebuild because their best players play same position and they have no money to build roster around them.
Miami needs to rebuild because Adebayo is like 8 years younger than Butler.
Hornets need to rebuild because their best and second best player are 10 yeras apart in age.
Indiana needs to rebuild because Sabonis and Brogdon won't win them championship.
Toronto needs rebuild because Lowry is old.
Wizards need rebuild because they have present nor future.
Bulls need rebuild because they can't build winning roster around Lavine, who is UFA soon.
Cavs need rebuild because they have nothing to build.


Suns need rebuild because Booker will leave as soon Chris Paul declines (or retires) .
Nuggets need rebuild because their second best player just torn ACL and they won't compete for title for next 2 seasons ( next year already lost).
Blazers need rebuild because they are going nowhere.
Dallas needs rebuild because Porzingis is broken
Memphis needs rebuild because Jackson is broken
Warriors need rebuild because Curry is old and Klay is broken
Spurs need rebuild because Pop will die from old age
Pelicans need rebuild because their best 3 players don't fit
Kings need rebuild because best 2 players are both PGs


You can make argument for virtually every NBA team for rebuild. You can make argument for every claim ever, if you are smart and know how to manipulate facts...

Not really.

Half the teams you listed are one or two trades away from solving their issues or are waiting for injured players to return. Also, most of these teams are committed to their players because they have limited other options. Out of those teams you might have a case for a few being in the middle of the pack with zero real shot at accomplishing anything.

That’s not, and wasn’t, the case with Orlando.

[pepe1991]

You can paint half of nba in that fashion if you really want to.
76ers need to rebuild because their current stars are good enough to get swept in first round ( happend last year).
Bucks need rebuild because their financial sctructure will never make them contenders.
Knicks need to rebuild because they will never win anything with Randle being best player.
Atlanta needs to rebuild because timeline is bad. Trae is 22, Bogdan is 29 and as soon as they sign Collins their salary is locked for years.
Boston needs to rebuild because their best players play same position and they have no money to build roster around them.
Miami needs to rebuild because Adebayo is like 8 years younger than Butler.
Hornets need to rebuild because their best and second best player are 10 yeras apart in age.
Indiana needs to rebuild because Sabonis and Brogdon won't win them championship.
Toronto needs rebuild because Lowry is old.
Wizards need rebuild because they have present nor future.
Bulls need rebuild because they can't build winning roster around Lavine, who is UFA soon.
Cavs need rebuild because they have nothing to build.


Suns need rebuild because Booker will leave as soon Chris Paul declines (or retires) .
Nuggets need rebuild because their second best player just torn ACL and they won't compete for title for next 2 seasons ( next year already lost).
Blazers need rebuild because they are going nowhere.
Dallas needs rebuild because Porzingis is broken
Memphis needs rebuild because Jackson is broken
Warriors need rebuild because Curry is old and Klay is broken
Spurs need rebuild because Pop will die from old age
Pelicans need rebuild because their best 3 players don't fit
Kings need rebuild because best 2 players are both PGs


You can make argument for virtually every NBA team for rebuild. You can make argument for every claim ever, if you are smart and know how to manipulate facts...

Not really.

Half the teams you listed are one or two trades away from solving their issues or are waiting for injured players to return. Also, most of these teams are committed to their players because they have limited other options. Out of those teams you might have a case for a few being in the middle of the pack with zero real shot at accomplishing anything.

That’s not, and wasn’t, the case with Orlando.

Well, houston is also one -or two trades away from adding Davis and Lebron, in theory. In mean time, they are worst team in nba.
This is pretty much nothing but semantics -and agenda driven talk. You can make case for everything in sport where teams, instad of being punished for sucking by being relagated to worst leagues- are being rewarded with picks and young players. But that's story for another day.

My post pretty much showcased how every nba fanbase can make argument to rebuild.

As far as Orlando goes, if they didn't held onto Gordon for too long, didn't kept Bamba until he devalued himself into usless and drafted Mitchell instad of Isaac, they would have had very good roster. And despite f***ing up 2017 and 2018 lottery picks (especially 2018 and Bamba blunder) they still could have cashed in assets for actual star, insted they kept team in status Quo until Gordon forced trade and i assume, others asked to leave with his domino falling.

And even if they didn't do anything, but stayed healthy, they would probably have been 5th seed on East today. is that championship roster? No. But it's not like Magic ever had one.

[drsd]

My point was that Fultz and JI are actually difference makers.

When Fournier went down, Bacon replaced him.
When Fultz when down, Anthony replaced him.

There is literally no doubt that the massive drop in production at those to slots is the reason Orlando is not a play-in team (or more).

Look: Bacon has a good chance to have started the most games this season for Orlando (depends on how many more games Ennis misses; Bacon need 8 more starts). That a player with a PER below 10 is the teams leading starter, well, I really do not know what to say about this season.

It wasn't to call Vuc and Evan bad. Vuc and Evan had their warts that were hidden by Fultz and JI. But I can actually admit (unlike the Vuc and Evan homers), that Vuc and Evan hid Fultz' and JI's warts as well.

Fultz, Fournier, Isaac, and Vučević do complement well. And I guess if Isaac and Fultz both had all their knee ligaments, the trade-deadline would have been about trading Gordon for a 3D PF. Whoever Jeff Green is these days. Maybe Maxi Kleber, given the Cavs interest in Gordon. Or Lauri Markkanen if the Bulls were looking to create more ESPN highlights rather than try to win games. Oh well. What=ifs and all that.


..

[drsd]

You aren't calling Vuc, Fournier, and AG bad, but they're saying Fultz and Isaac made no difference in winning games.

Which is worse? Both a failed narratives for me.


..

[VFX]

You can paint half of nba in that fashion if you really want to.
76ers need to rebuild because their current stars are good enough to get swept in first round ( happend last year).
Bucks need rebuild because their financial sctructure will never make them contenders.
Knicks need to rebuild because they will never win anything with Randle being best player.
Atlanta needs to rebuild because timeline is bad. Trae is 22, Bogdan is 29 and as soon as they sign Collins their salary is locked for years.
Boston needs to rebuild because their best players play same position and they have no money to build roster around them.
Miami needs to rebuild because Adebayo is like 8 years younger than Butler.
Hornets need to rebuild because their best and second best player are 10 yeras apart in age.
Indiana needs to rebuild because Sabonis and Brogdon won't win them championship.
Toronto needs rebuild because Lowry is old.
Wizards need rebuild because they have present nor future.
Bulls need rebuild because they can't build winning roster around Lavine, who is UFA soon.
Cavs need rebuild because they have nothing to build.


Suns need rebuild because Booker will leave as soon Chris Paul declines (or retires) .
Nuggets need rebuild because their second best player just torn ACL and they won't compete for title for next 2 seasons ( next year already lost).
Blazers need rebuild because they are going nowhere.
Dallas needs rebuild because Porzingis is broken
Memphis needs rebuild because Jackson is broken
Warriors need rebuild because Curry is old and Klay is broken
Spurs need rebuild because Pop will die from old age
Pelicans need rebuild because their best 3 players don't fit
Kings need rebuild because best 2 players are both PGs


You can make argument for virtually every NBA team for rebuild. You can make argument for every claim ever, if you are smart and know how to manipulate facts...

Not really.

Half the teams you listed are one or two trades away from solving their issues or are waiting for injured players to return. Also, most of these teams are committed to their players because they have limited other options. Out of those teams you might have a case for a few being in the middle of the pack with zero real shot at accomplishing anything.

That’s not, and wasn’t, the case with Orlando.

Well, houston is also one -or two trades away from adding Davis and Lebron, in theory. In mean time, they are worst team in nba.
This is pretty much nothing but semantics -and agenda driven talk. You can make case for everything in sport where teams, instad of being punished for sucking by being relagated to worst leagues- are being rewarded with picks and young players. But that's story for another day.

My post pretty much showcased how every nba fanbase can make argument to rebuild.

As far as Orlando goes, if they didn't held onto Gordon for too long, didn't kept Bamba until he devalued himself into usless and drafted Mitchell instad of Isaac, they would have had very good roster. And despite f***ing up 2017 and 2018 lottery picks (especially 2018 and Bamba blunder) they still could have cashed in assets for actual star, insted they kept team in status Quo until Gordon forced trade and i assume, others asked to leave with his domino falling.

And even if they didn't do anything, but stayed healthy, they would probably have been 5th seed on East today. is that championship roster? No. But it's not like Magic ever had one.

To keep it simple...

You can split each team into the category of “contending” and “lotto”. If you are neither in a two year window, then you are failing as a franchise. Orlando did neither well for 4-5 years despite overwhelming evidence.

These teams know whether or not they have enough future pieces to develop. Listing organizations with players carrying their teams, under their first or second contract in the nba, is idiocy. You have an argument for a few teams that haven’t made big moves or acquisitions but still believe they are competing.

[tooler]

To me it's like politics. You can spend time arguing that your way is the best, but it's easier to sit back and focus on the entertainment.

I do think that if a social group doesn't want to engage with that level of pedantry and argumentativeness that it would be best to respectfully dial it back a bit. I'm somewhat of an oddity on the Internet in that regard.