Official Spec Thread: Heart and Hustle Magic 2.0

YosemiteSam · Post #1081 » by **YosemiteSam** » Mon Nov 29, 2021 4:33 pm

Duplicate - sorry

zaymon · Post #1082 » by **zaymon** » Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:08 pm

Knightro wrote:
zaymon wrote:Clifford had his flaws and at the end he was bundle of nerves but we looked much better under him even after trades without any practice. Isaac developed into all nba level defender, Hampton and Okeke looked like real players, Gary Harris was not that awful, Anthony improved as season went along.
Its too soon to judge Mosley, but he is not on Clifford level as a coach right now, not even close. Hope he will get there becouse he has good energy.

I mean, not really?

Orlando post trades last year had a -13.4 NET and even that is skewed because Clifford played every veteran he had left - Ennis, Ross, MCW, Birch, Harris, Porter - as long as he possibly could until they either got hurt or Weltman forced Clifford's hand.

Once Clifford was in a position to play all young guys, he faked getting sick and ultimately quit. He had no interest in teaching anyone anything.

This year the Magic have a -11.0 NET for what that's worth. Absolutely terrible, but still not as bad as the 2nd half of last year.

Yeah you are propably right overall but still Hampton and Okeke looked much better in Clifford system without any practice. They both looked like they known their roles. Mosley offense was carried by Anthony scorching hot off the dribble scoring and Wagner pick and roll ability so far. I think Clifford would do better this year especially with Wagner who he would propably love.

Skybox · Post #1083 » by **Skybox** » Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:18 pm

YosemiteSam wrote:The thing is, this is what everyone said about Memphis 2 years ago, and they went out and competed from Day 1. Now, was that all because Ja is a superstar? Or was it that their coach (who was younger and less experienced than Mosley) can actually coach a scheme? Not sure about that just yet

Clearly because Ja is a superstar...he wasn't coached into that :noway:

zaymon · Post #1084 » by **zaymon** » Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:21 pm

YosemiteSam wrote:The thing is, this is what everyone said about Memphis 2 years ago, and they went out and competed from Day 1. Now, was that all because Ja is a superstar? Or was it that their coach (who was younger and less experienced than Mosley) can actually coach a scheme? Not sure about that just yet

They had good veterans, were overall much older (starting 5 is 24 vs 21,2), much healthier. Morant is also much better ball handler than any of our players. I would say not that close comparison.

thelead · Post #1085 » by **thelead** » Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:48 pm

YosemiteSam wrote:
YosemiteSam wrote:The thing is, this is what everyone said about Memphis 2 years ago, and they went out and competed from Day 1. Now, was that all because Ja is a superstar? Or is it that their coach (who was younger and less experienced than Mosley) can actually coach a scheme? Not sure about that just yet

We have nothing that they would trade Ja for. We could offer them the whole team and they would still laugh at us.

YosemiteSam · Post #1086 » by **YosemiteSam** » Mon Nov 29, 2021 6:04 pm

zaymon wrote:
YosemiteSam wrote:The thing is, this is what everyone said about Memphis 2 years ago, and they went out and competed from Day 1. Now, was that all because Ja is a superstar? Or was it that their coach (who was younger and less experienced than Mosley) can actually coach a scheme? Not sure about that just yet

They had good veterans, were overall much older (starting 5 is 24 vs 21,2), much healthier. Morant is also much better ball handler than any of our players. I would say not that close comparison.

I know that is how it turned out, but I remember before that season they were predicted to have the worst record - noob coach, super young, no real known veterans at the time. I mean they started Ja, JJJ, Brandon Clarke, Valanciunas and Dillon Brooks right? That is 2 rooks, 1 2nd year and 1 3rd year player with a 7 year vet. Other key minutes were Kyle Anderson and D Melton. That was a super young team and they were competitive out of the box.

I think it was 75% Ja and 25% the coach - he's a good one and was quite unknown at the time

Optimus_Steel · Post #1087 » by **Optimus_Steel** » Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:37 pm

At this point I see Mosley as a stop gap for the next coach. He can't be truly judged until he has a capable team which he clearly does not. But by that time he will have lost much that he will get sacked for another coach so I'm not putting too much stock into what he does or doesn't do. It may not be fair but this is the situation we are in and he signed up for this.

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basketballRob · Post #1088 » by **basketballRob** » Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:59 pm

I think Mosely has done a great job. We could've had another coach for years and never know if Franz could run the point or if WCJ could play PF. He's only trying to develop players this season and that's what he should be judged on.

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The Effect · Post #1089 » by **The Effect** » Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:12 am

Wow, mosley has been here for 20 games and people are already talking about our next coach? jeezus

Post #1090 » by **Def Swami** » Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:18 am

YosemiteSam wrote:The thing is, this is what everyone said about Memphis 2 years ago, and they went out and competed from Day 1. Now, was that all because Ja is a superstar? Or was it that their coach (who was younger and less experienced than Mosley) can actually coach a scheme? Not sure about that just yet

Both might be true. It's just hard to assess the coach since the talent is so clearly lacking compared to that Grizzlies team in a very big way that you mentioned.

Ja Morant is the key there. I think they have a good coach too, but having Morant as a superstar guard that is the engine of the team allowed their other young guys (Brandon Clarke, Dillon Brooks, Jaren Jackson) to fall into place in roles that suit them. I think we have a lot of good young players that are good role players (Wagner, Carter Jr., Okeke, etc.) that are on par with that Grizzlies cast. But, asking the '19-'20 Grizzlies to be great without Morant would require all those other players taking on roles that are probably out of the comfort zone for most of those guys.

pepe1991 · Post #1091 » by **pepe1991** » Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:53 am

There is lot of talk about Magic "unlucky " injuries.
But if you look and actually make objective assement of players ,you will see portion of that blame has to go on Magic organisation.

Markelle Fultz- traded injuried. Player who played 33 games in 2 seasons before trade. 5th year player who had 1 healthy season.

Wendell Carter Jr. 4th year player. 3 years with lot of injuries. Never played more than 54 games a year.

Mo Bamba and Isaac. Very,very tall, very skinny players. Arhytype of body that always will have issues staying healthy for longer periods of time. From Bol Bol, Noel, Porzingis, even Anthony Davis... to nowdays Pokuševski. Just underdeveloped bodies for grind that bigs have to go through.

Both Isaac & Fultz were re-signed based on nothing but blind faith. Bot players could have had qualifing offer in this year and their contract exstension hopes would plummet due their inability to play basketball. But noo, Orlando Magic nowdays is rehab center.

Chuma Okeke- drafted with ACL tear. Should i even add anything to that?

Even Cole Anthony had injury at college. And injury in rookie year. Now he is hurt again.

MCW- from 2013 to 2021 played more than 65 games- twice. Some of it comes from fact he was basically out of nba, but let's not pretend he has been healthy. In last 2 and half seasons for Magic, he collected 76 out of 171 possible game. So once again sub 50% aveliablity on roster.

Gary Harris has been broken for 4 years. So was Porter year ago.

If you build roster of broken, injury prone, or flat out injuried players you can't be suprised that they never play together.

drsd · Post #1092 » by **drsd** » Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:34 am

With this news, "Magic's Suggs out indefinitely with broken thumb,” Orlando now has five injured PGs: Suggs, Fultz, Carter-Williams, Moore, and Anthony.

So the new depth chart is what? Mychal Mulder and RJ Hampton, with F-Wagner plays some point-forward minutes now.

AND: with the Houston’s unbelievable third in a row victory, my Magic is now officially the worst team in the NBA.

..

Optimus_Steel · Post #1093 » by **Optimus_Steel** » Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:28 pm

The Effect wrote:Wow, mosley has been here for 20 games and people are already talking about our next coach? jeezus

I've been talking about this since before he got hired. It's realizing the situation we are in as a team and our history with coaches.

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Skybox · Post #1094 » by **Skybox** » Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:31 pm

Interesting thought this morning...Point Forward Franz has every opportunity now to win ROY. Put the ball in his hands and see what happens. Play around him, Mulder and Harris (or Ross if he wakes the F up) at G. RJ still likely off the bench but playing much more.

How bad is Cole? I thought it was day-to-day

Magic_Kingdom · Post #1095 » by **Magic_Kingdom** » Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:19 pm

pepe1991 wrote:There is lot of talk about Magic "unlucky " injuries.
But if you look and actually make objective assement of players ,you will see portion of that blame has to go on Magic organisation.

Markelle Fultz- traded injuried. Player who played 33 games in 2 seasons before trade. 5th year player who had 1 healthy season.

Wendell Carter Jr. 4th year player. 3 years with lot of injuries. Never played more than 54 games a year.

Mo Bamba and Isaac. Very,very tall, very skinny players. Arhytype of body that always will have issues staying healthy for longer periods of time. From Bol Bol, Noel, Porzingis, even Anthony Davis... to nowdays Pokuševski. Just underdeveloped bodies for grind that bigs have to go through.

Both Isaac & Fultz were re-signed based on nothing but blind faith. Bot players could have had qualifing offer in this year and their contract exstension hopes would plummet due their inability to play basketball. But noo, Orlando Magic nowdays is rehab center.

Chuma Okeke- drafted with ACL tear. Should i even add anything to that?

Even Cole Anthony had injury at college. And injury in rookie year. Now he is hurt again.

MCW- from 2013 to 2021 played more than 65 games- twice. Some of it comes from fact he was basically out of nba, but let's not pretend he has been healthy. In last 2 and half seasons for Magic, he collected 76 out of 171 possible game. So once again sub 50% aveliablity on roster.

Gary Harris has been broken for 4 years. So was Porter year ago.

If you build roster of broken, injury prone, or flat out injuried players you can't be suprised that they never play together.

These are Weltman's top Magic draft picks and the number of games they played in their first seasons:

Jonathan Isaac (2017) -- 27 games
Ankle injuries

Mo Bamba (2018) -- 47 games
Fractured tibia

Chuma Okeke (2019) -- 0 games (sat out entire first season, played only 45 games in his official rookie season)
First season -- ACL repair
Rookie season -- Bruised knee, ankle injury

Cole Anthony (2020) -- 47 games
Rib injury

Jalen Suggs (2021) -- ?? (21 games to date)
Out for an "extended period" with fractured right thumb

At some point you can't keep calling it dumb luck. I agree with Pepe: Isaac and Bamba have body types that are rarely able to withstand the NBA grind, and Okeke was drafted with a serious injury. Fultz couldn't stay healthy in Philly, which is why they dumped him, and he hasn't been healthy much here. How many times can you go into your boss's office and blame your failures on circumstances beyond your control?

rcklsscognition · Post #1096 » by **rcklsscognition** » Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:21 pm

Worst team in the league officially! At least the weather here is amazing right now.

PrimeThyme · Post #1097 » by **PrimeThyme** » Wed Dec 1, 2021 3:21 am

I've been quite happy with Mosley, personally.

Harris has been a bad NBA player for 3 years. Ross has always been streaky, && has some of the worst basketball IQ in the NBA. Those two players are not how I'm going to judge Mosley.

WCJ/Cole have taken big strides so far this year. Wagner is flourishing. Suggs was improving. Bamba has been better. Those are the players I care about, and they all seem to be taking to Mosley quite well.

If he could ever stay healthy, I think Isaac is someone who could absolutely blossom under his guidance too. This is an already bad roster with their best players injured. I can't judge Mosley on Wins/Losses this year. Or really next year either. Weltman has built this season's roster to lose.

drsd · Post #1098 » by **drsd** » Wed Dec 1, 2021 12:18 pm

rcklsscognition wrote:Worst team in the league officially! At least the weather here is amazing right now.

Orlando is outpacing the post Dwightmare teams:

jezzerinho · Post #1099 » by **jezzerinho** » Wed Dec 1, 2021 12:34 pm

Mosley is here for personal development of the players and nothing else for the time being. Weltham are tanking hard and are managing the availability of players who, if the chips were really down, could probably have been playing weeks ago in JI/MF's case and the whole time in Anthony's. Okeke coule prob have started sooner too.

So Mosley is coaching with a hand tied behind his back as far as winning games goes. He has no bargaining power with Weltham, being a first time HC who took the role knowing the circumstances (which Clifford wisely chose not to accept).

Therefore, the only thing you can rationally judge Mosley and by extension the players on is their individual personal growth. I don't think you can even use team-play based stats as a measure for that because Mosley is playing the teams he's been handed night to night, in whatever combination he can conjure.

Skybox · Post #1100 » by **Skybox** » Wed Dec 1, 2021 2:43 pm

jezzerinho wrote:Mosley is here for personal development of the players and nothing else for the time being. Weltham are tanking hard and are managing the availability of players who, if the chips were really down, could probably have been playing weeks ago in JI/MF's case and the whole time in Anthony's. Okeke coule prob have started sooner too.

So Mosley is coaching with a hand tied behind his back as far as winning games goes. He has no bargaining power with Weltham, being a first time HC who took the role knowing the circumstances (which Clifford wisely chose not to accept).

Therefore, the only thing you can rationally judge Mosley and by extension the players on is their individual personal growth. I don't think you can even use team-play based stats as a measure for that because Mosley is playing the teams he's been handed night to night, in whatever combination he can conjure.

So this is basically a 5 star camp? (I don't disagree with you)

Like all career bench coaches, guys like Mosley have to jump at their chance to show what they can do. It's definitely a different interview than Clifford, or Vogel, or any of Phil Jackson's...He'll want to carry out his developmental mission, first and foremost, and then try to show his winning potential, as an audition for Phase II of the rebuild, once he's on the field. Makes sense and I'm rooting for him.