The Trade Thread II

[KingRobb02]

Over the last few years, as I've seen Conley, Kyrie and now Wall looked at as top PGs, I hope we slow our role of getting rid of Payton. None of those 3 mentioned were much better than Payton in year 3. Payton has gotten better every year.

Year over year comparisons don't really work. All those guys came into the NBA as high draft picks and 5 star recruits because they had all the tools and just had to figure out how to put it all together. Those guys all came in at 19 with A+ potential. I would say Elf came in with closer to B potential.

I get your 2nd point. But how/why don't YTY comparisons work? He is clearly doing some/most things better this year.

I rushed through it, but I was trying to say that year over year is fishy because you never know how close these guys are to peaking. Like if you do a year over year with Jimmy Butler from age 22-24, and then another random bench guy who can give you good defense, like Arron Afflalao, you would draw a conclusion that they were on the same path. But in reality Arron was already at like 75% of his peak while Jimmy was only like 50% there.

[OrlChamps2030]

Over the last few years, as I've seen Conley, Kyrie and now Wall looked at as top PGs, I hope we slow our role of getting rid of Payton. None of those 3 mentioned were much better than Payton in year 3. Payton has gotten better every year.

I'll give you Conley... But Wall and Kyrie?? What makes you away that? Kyrie was a 2x all star by his third year and Wall was putting up 18/8 and would have made the all star team if he was healthy in his third year. Those guys were way better than Elfrid... They were/are stars

Kyrie I can back off of, he's been a solid shooter his whole career. BUT there were questions on his running a team the 1st few years.

Wall was a mess his 1st 3 years, wasn't until year 4 he shot decent. Turnovers are still super high considering the talent around him.

But my overall point was, it takes PGs a bit to develop. They are learning how to run an NBA PLUS work on their own game.

How about Elf vs. M. Smart?? same draft year. Elf is actually a full year younger than Smart. Or Exum?? Elf is only 6 months older than him.

I disagree.

It was clear John Wall was bound for stardom after his third year.

That's why the Wizards gave him a 5 year 80 mill extension, would you do the same for Elfrid? (Adjusting for the max of the modern cap of course). Wall's PER was 5 points higher, way higher AST%, double FTR, much better shooter from the line, and barely had a higher TOV% despite a much bigger workload. I don't think there is a comparison to be made here.

Elf vs M Smart vs Exum...

Yea this comparison doesn't mean much to me... Exum hasn't shown anything and Smart has shown to be a good energy guy but a major chucker. Being better or comparable to these guys doesn't mean anything

[magicfan217]

Over the last few years, as I've seen Conley, Kyrie and now Wall looked at as top PGs, I hope we slow our role of getting rid of Payton. None of those 3 mentioned were much better than Payton in year 3. Payton has gotten better every year.

I'll give you Conley... But Wall and Kyrie?? What makes you away that? Kyrie was a 2x all star by his third year and Wall was putting up 18/8 and would have made the all star team if he was healthy in his third year. Those guys were way better than Elfrid... They were/are stars

Kyrie I can back off of, he's been a solid shooter his whole career. BUT there were questions on his running a team the 1st few years.

Wall was a mess his 1st 3 years, wasn't until year 4 he shot decent. Turnovers are still super high considering the talent around him.

But my overall point was, it takes PGs a bit to develop. They are learning how to run an NBA PLUS work on their own game.

How about Elf vs. M. Smart?? same draft year. Elf is actually a full year younger than Smart. Or Exum?? Elf is only 6 months older than him.

LOL...EP vs John Wall is NO CONTEST. You also have to take into consideration how much younger wall entered the league at...

[JBSouthpaw]

I'll give you Conley... But Wall and Kyrie?? What makes you away that? Kyrie was a 2x all star by his third year and Wall was putting up 18/8 and would have made the all star team if he was healthy in his third year. Those guys were way better than Elfrid... They were/are stars

Kyrie I can back off of, he's been a solid shooter his whole career. BUT there were questions on his running a team the 1st few years.

Wall was a mess his 1st 3 years, wasn't until year 4 he shot decent. Turnovers are still super high considering the talent around him.

But my overall point was, it takes PGs a bit to develop. They are learning how to run an NBA PLUS work on their own game.

How about Elf vs. M. Smart?? same draft year. Elf is actually a full year younger than Smart. Or Exum?? Elf is only 6 months older than him.

I disagree.

It was clear John Wall was bound for stardom after his third year.

That's why the Wizards gave him a 5 year 80 mill extension, would you do the same for Elfrid? (Adjusting for the max of the modern cap of course). Wall's PER was 5 points higher, way higher AST%, double FTR, much better shooter from the line, and barely had a higher TOV% despite a much bigger workload. I don't think there is a comparison to be made here.

Wall had a better cast around him, that always helps PG numbers.

Elf vs M Smart vs Exum...

Yea this comparison doesn't mean much to me... Exum hasn't shown anything and Smart has shown to be a good energy guy but a major chucker. Being better or comparable to these guys doesn't mean anything

except these were our other "choices" for PG. Not really fair to judge Elf against the others.

[JBSouthpaw]

I'll give you Conley... But Wall and Kyrie?? What makes you away that? Kyrie was a 2x all star by his third year and Wall was putting up 18/8 and would have made the all star team if he was healthy in his third year. Those guys were way better than Elfrid... They were/are stars

Kyrie I can back off of, he's been a solid shooter his whole career. BUT there were questions on his running a team the 1st few years.

Wall was a mess his 1st 3 years, wasn't until year 4 he shot decent. Turnovers are still super high considering the talent around him.

But my overall point was, it takes PGs a bit to develop. They are learning how to run an NBA PLUS work on their own game.

How about Elf vs. M. Smart?? same draft year. Elf is actually a full year younger than Smart. Or Exum?? Elf is only 6 months older than him.

LOL...EP vs John Wall is NO CONTEST. You also have to take into consideration how much younger wall entered the league at...

Not comparing them at all. I'm talking about growth in a PG.
All those I named improved a lot, took them 3 years to get there. Those 3 were also expected to be where they are now.

[JBSouthpaw]

Year over year comparisons don't really work. All those guys came into the NBA as high draft picks and 5 star recruits because they had all the tools and just had to figure out how to put it all together. Those guys all came in at 19 with A+ potential. I would say Elf came in with closer to B potential.

I get your 2nd point. But how/why don't YTY comparisons work? He is clearly doing some/most things better this year.

I rushed through it, but I was trying to say that year over year is fishy because you never know how close these guys are to peaking. Like if you do a year over year with Jimmy Butler from age 22-24, and then another random bench guy who can give you good defense, like Arron Afflalao, you would draw a conclusion that they were on the same path. But in reality Arron was already at like 75% of his peak while Jimmy was only like 50% there.

Ok, gotcha.

Getting to peak, as long as Elf hasn't flattened out, he is still reaching for his peak.

[JBSouthpaw]

I'll give you Conley... But Wall and Kyrie?? What makes you away that? Kyrie was a 2x all star by his third year and Wall was putting up 18/8 and would have made the all star team if he was healthy in his third year. Those guys were way better than Elfrid... They were/are stars

Kyrie I can back off of, he's been a solid shooter his whole career. BUT there were questions on his running a team the 1st few years.

Wall was a mess his 1st 3 years, wasn't until year 4 he shot decent. Turnovers are still super high considering the talent around him.

But my overall point was, it takes PGs a bit to develop. They are learning how to run an NBA PLUS work on their own game.

How about Elf vs. M. Smart?? same draft year. Elf is actually a full year younger than Smart. Or Exum?? Elf is only 6 months older than him.

LOL...EP vs John Wall is NO CONTEST. You also have to take into consideration how much younger wall entered the league at...

They were the same age I believe when drafted. Both 19.

[KingRobb02]

I get your 2nd point. But how/why don't YTY comparisons work? He is clearly doing some/most things better this year.

I rushed through it, but I was trying to say that year over year is fishy because you never know how close these guys are to peaking. Like if you do a year over year with Jimmy Butler from age 22-24, and then another random bench guy who can give you good defense, like Arron Afflalao, you would draw a conclusion that they were on the same path. But in reality Arron was already at like 75% of his peak while Jimmy was only like 50% there.

Ok, gotcha.

Getting to peak, as long as Elf hasn't flattened out, he is still reaching for his peak.

Not saying Elf has peaked, just we don't know A) how high his peak is and B) whether this team is the best environment for him to get there.

[Shady Franchise]

Orlando In: Barnes, Powell, Harris
Dallas In: Biz, Green, Mario

With Bogut/Williams/Green expiring, Dallas starts clearing their mess. Dirk gets paired with Biz, and Mario is the raw prospect they can use in their rebuild.

Orlando gets their wing depth solidified with Ross/Fournier/Barnes, and only takes back vet contracts of Harris and Powell short term. This leaves the team with a lot of freedom in the draft. See below...

Roster post trade:
Payton/DJ/Watson
Ross/Fournier/Harris
Barnes/Fournier
Gordon/Powell
Vuc/Zimmerman

2017-2018 Lineup Options
Payton/Smith Jr./DJ
Ross/Fournier
Barnes/Fournier
Gordon/Powell
Vuc/Zimmer
---------
Payton/DJ
Ross/Fournier
Barnes/Jackson
Gordon/Powell
Vuc/Zimmer
----------
Payton/DJ
Ross/Fournier
Barnes/Tatum
Gordon/Tatum/Powell
Vuc/Zimmer

[glennathan]

I think we are all happy the Magic will soon stop paying Green 15M to not really play basketball.

..

Can we agree that Rashard Lewis is now not the worst contract ever signed? I mean yes he was very expensive but at least he played when on the court..

[glennathan]

Orlando In: Barnes, Powell, Harris
Dallas In: Biz, Green, Mario

With Bogut/Williams/Green expiring, Dallas starts clearing their mess. Dirk gets paired with Biz, and Mario is the raw prospect they can use in their rebuild.

Orlando gets their wing depth solidified with Ross/Fournier/Barnes, and only takes back vet contracts of Harris and Powell short term. This leaves the team with a lot of freedom in the draft. See below...

Roster post trade:
Payton/DJ/Watson
Ross/Fournier/Harris
Barnes/Fournier
Gordon/Powell
Vuc/Zimmerman

2017-2018 Lineup Options
Payton/Smith Jr./DJ
Ross/Fournier
Barnes/Fournier
Gordon/Powell
Vuc/Zimmer
---------
Payton/DJ
Ross/Fournier
Barnes/Jackson
Gordon/Powell
Vuc/Zimmer
----------
Payton/DJ
Ross/Fournier
Barnes/Tatum
Gordon/Tatum/Powell
Vuc/Zimmer

I am all for getting Harrison Barnes but I seriously doubt that Dallas does this without us giving up a 1st round pick of some sort. Cuban and company are like that.

[Shady Franchise]

Orlando In: Barnes, Powell, Harris
Dallas In: Biz, Green, Mario

With Bogut/Williams/Green expiring, Dallas starts clearing their mess. Dirk gets paired with Biz, and Mario is the raw prospect they can use in their rebuild.

Orlando gets their wing depth solidified with Ross/Fournier/Barnes, and only takes back vet contracts of Harris and Powell short term. This leaves the team with a lot of freedom in the draft. See below...

Roster post trade:
Payton/DJ/Watson
Ross/Fournier/Harris
Barnes/Fournier
Gordon/Powell
Vuc/Zimmerman

2017-2018 Lineup Options
Payton/Smith Jr./DJ
Ross/Fournier
Barnes/Fournier
Gordon/Powell
Vuc/Zimmer
---------
Payton/DJ
Ross/Fournier
Barnes/Jackson
Gordon/Powell
Vuc/Zimmer
----------
Payton/DJ
Ross/Fournier
Barnes/Tatum
Gordon/Tatum/Powell
Vuc/Zimmer

I am all for getting Harrison Barnes but I seriously doubt that Dallas does this without us giving up a 1st round pick of some sort. Cuban and company are like that.

I agree. If we were to include the Tor pick, is that giving up too much? I didn't include any picks because, frankly, I'm not very good at gauging the value of picks.

[drsd]

Can we agree that Rashard Lewis is now not the worst contract ever signed? I mean yes he was very expensive but at least he played when on the court..

More seriously, Lewis was overpaid but he was not a bad contract. Heck: he was part of a Finals run!



..

[JBSouthpaw]

posted this in the Jackson thread too, but...
Marc Stein ‏@ESPNSteinLine 1m1 minute ago
More
The Pistons and Magic have discussed a trade that would send Reggie Jackson to Orlando for D.J. Augustin and Jeff Green, league sources say.

[rcklsscognition]

Read on Twitter

Wow. Adios 1st rounder we got from Toronto. Hopefully we can keep it and claim we're taking on a ton of long money.

[davey_wavy]

I'll take Reggie for that lol

[CamWinfree]

Like I said, we are getting Reggie Jackson one way or another. This trade is a lot better than the 3 team one where we give up Hezonja.

[glennathan]

Read on Twitter

Wow. Adios 1st rounder we got from Toronto. Hopefully we can keep it and claim we're taking on a ton of long money.

My phone doesn't load Tweets. What does it say??

[rcklsscognition]

This is almost like getting Reggie for free, isn't it?

[rcklsscognition]

Read on Twitter

Wow. Adios 1st rounder we got from Toronto. Hopefully we can keep it and claim we're taking on a ton of long money.

My phone doesn't load Tweets. What does it say??

Magic/Pistons discussed Jeff Green/DJ for Reggie Jackson. From Marc Stein.