Official Speculation Thread '20-'21 VI: "I like this team"

[fendilim]

What clifford said was basically the same thought when he was in woj’s pod and repeated here numerous time. But some people dont just listen hahaha

Clifford is not a coach who’d play young players just for the sake of playing them. Loo

[Skin]

Personally, I totally understand what Clifford is saying about playing time as it pertains to the Magic. Head coaches are hired to win games. That's it. They are hired/fired based on wins. Of course he'll play the veteran hands if it equates to more wins.

The last coach that was hired to develop players regardless of winning was Jacque Vaughn. Of course this board wanted him fired for not winning enough. No pun intended, but there is no winning with this fanbase. The coach is always the "problem."

Agreed. I loved JV's commitment to young players and he got a raw deal. Anti JV ans got what they wanted. Meaningless wins and veterans who come in to get PAID only to leave while youth gets ruined or rotted.

[Skin]

Clifford is Skiles 2.0.

[Nyce_1]

Clifford is Skiles 2.0.

Nah man. Appearance, sure. But nothing else.

[purpleswordfish]

Ironically there is no winning with this organization for the past decade. Can you believe many fans are upset? The point is to win it all or try. Do you look at the magic for the past 10 years and see a winning product? A winning strategy? A clear direction? I don't!

Personally, I totally understand what Clifford is saying about playing time as it pertains to the Magic. Head coaches are hired to win games. That's it. They are hired/fired based on wins. Of course he'll play the veteran hands if it equates to more wins.

The last coach that was hired to develop players regardless of winning was Jacque Vaughn. Of course this board wanted him fired for not winning enough. No pun intended, but there is no winning with this fanbase. The coach is always the "problem."

Sent from my HD1900 using RealGM mobile app

I can believe fans are upset with a franchise that has spent 9 years rebuilding to be an #8 seed in a weak Eastern Conference. But, look at all your points:

"Do you look at the Magic...and see a winning product? A winning strategy? A clear direction."

Clifford as a head coach is trying to win as many games as possible. That's attempting to create a winning product through a winning strategy (playing vets over unproven younger talent). Not sure he has much direct control over the franchise's direction. Not sure how that's a coaching problem.

My point is that you can't blame a head coach for trying to win games by any means necessary. Coaches generally don't participate in tanking because it'd be career suicide if they did. It's not that different than suggesting players help tank. No player is going to purposely try to lose when a huge chunk of them are literally playing for their next contract.

[VFX]

Ironically there is no winning with this organization for the past decade. Can you believe many fans are upset? The point is to win it all or try. Do you look at the magic for the past 10 years and see a winning product? A winning strategy? A clear direction? I don't!

Personally, I totally understand what Clifford is saying about playing time as it pertains to the Magic. Head coaches are hired to win games. That's it. They are hired/fired based on wins. Of course he'll play the veteran hands if it equates to more wins.

The last coach that was hired to develop players regardless of winning was Jacque Vaughn. Of course this board wanted him fired for not winning enough. No pun intended, but there is no winning with this fanbase. The coach is always the "problem."

Sent from my HD1900 using RealGM mobile app

I can believe fans are upset with a franchise that has spent 9 years rebuilding to be an #8 seed in a weak Eastern Conference. But, look at all your points:

"Do you look at the Magic...and see a winning product? A winning strategy? A clear direction."

Clifford as a head coach is trying to win as many games as possible. That's attempting to create a winning product through a winning strategy (playing vets over unproven younger talent). Not sure he has much direct control over the franchise's direction. Not sure how that's a coaching problem.

My point is that you can't blame a head coach for trying to win games by any means necessary. Coaches generally don't participate in tanking because it'd be career suicide if they did. It's not that different than suggesting players help tank. No player is going to purposely try to lose when a huge chunk of them are literally playing for their next contract.

That’s why the FO is to blame for making their hands go numb every offseason.

You can’t blame Clifford, but you can blame them for hiring Clifford and refusing to pick a real direction with follow through.

[pepe1991]

Clifford track record with young players, including Magic young players simply isn't favoring what some people here say. What is actually is being noticable is fact that he played almost every young player as much as that player was capable.

For sake of easier read, i'll keep blue line for young players who he played a lot, and red for ones who he didn't.

2013-14

That roster had 23 years old Kemba Walker. Kemba started each and every game for him.
Now where fans agenda doesn't meet reality:
20 yeras old Michael Kidd Gilchrist started EVERY SINGLE GAME for him that year.
Cody Zeller, 20 years old rookie, despite being played behind Al Jefferson ( allstar numbers) . Zeller played every single game and even started 3 games as rookie, 17,3 mpg.
Sophmore Biyombo played 77 games, started in 9 of them.
It's very important to know that sophmore Kemba was really, really mediocre player. Guy had Brandon Jennings level stats as starter, yet started every game and was at very worst- 2# optoin. So Clifford trusted him, later it will pay out for both.


2014-15
Team drafts Noah Vonleh with 9th pick and PJ Harrison
Kemba stil starts.
Cody Zeller is starter (45 out of 62 games). 24 mpg.
Biyombo starts 21 off 62 games. 20 mpg.
PJ Harrison, 15 mpg, 45 games played, 3 starts.
MKG is starting all the time.

Noah Vonleh is nowhere to be found in rotation ( 10 mpg)


Clifford about not playing "promising rookie" that once had Lamarcus Aldrige ceiling, according to fans:

“I don’t agree at all that playing is necessarily good for a young player. Playing well when you’re ready to play is good for a young player,” Clifford said of Vonleh.

“If you don’t know how to go from one thing to the next, it makes it hard: Hard for you and very hard on the other four guys out there.”

2015-16.
48 wins team
Frank Kaminsky lottery pick
Kemba turns into allstar preformer, starts 81 of 81 games ( obviouslly)
Cody Zeller starts 60 of 70 games
PJ Harrison starts 43 of 48 games
Kaminsky plays 81 games, starts 3, plays 22 mpg
MKG starts all 7 games, but has nasty injury that kept him out whole year
23 yeras old Jeremy Lamb gets regular 19 mpg burn off bench

NOah Vonleh traded, to this date never did anything in his career worth mentioning

2016-17
Traded pick

Really nothing to talk about here, Zeller starting, Kemba allstar, Kaminsky 26 mpg, MKG after injury plays and starst 81 of 81 games
Clifford goes that far that for next 2 years he even founds place for undrafted rookie Trevonte Graham.


2017-18
Rookies. Malik Monk, Dwayne Bacon.
This is where all the "outrage" from Hornets fans, very unjustified one, started.

So to go over who starts, usual suspcets, Batum ( signed year prior),Howard, Kemba ofc is allstar, MKG is starting all the time, Jeremy Lamb becomes starter for first time in his life, rookie Bacon plays 55,even starts 6 games (13 mpg), Kaminsky still is regular rotation guy, Marvin Williams who i didn't mention before, was regular starter and allegedly lockerooom leader. Graham still gets playing time.

Monk is nowhere to be found
Zeller is out for basically whole year

To sum that year up i don't know what drugs Hornets fans were on, or they were just riding scouts juice of lies how Malik Monk is new Bradley Beal, but they all belived Clifford is sabotagng Monk.



Final verdict: not guility.
In his Hornets career as head coach, Clifford turned Kemba Walker into allstar, MKG started when he was able to stay on both legs, he went that far that he would find rotaton spots for guys who later were out of nba ( PJ Harrison, Trevonte Graham...). He kind a put guys like Kemba, Jeremy Lamb, Kaminsky, even Biyombo on track for solid careers.
All young players were constatnly and constantly getting playing time and roles with purpose. He never sabotaged any young player who broke out and had great, or even good career after .

In his 2013-2017 time with Hornets only TWO rookies didn't play, and who were lottery prospecst. Noah Vonleh and Malik Monk.
2 years after Clifford's departure, Monk is still crappy player who menaged to start ONE game in his nba career.
Noah Vonleh is deep bench guy.

Now pls tell me more how Clifford "hates young players" because you simply can't comes with grips of reality that Mohamed Bamba simply ins't good basketball player.
Because that same Clifford starts Fultz and Isaac without any issues, who are basically same age as Bamba.

Now go on, talk yoruself into another lie how it's not about playing, it's about usage, situations,who ends games and other nonsense, once again ignoring that it's Clifford who took on kemba and who under him went from mediocre 39% FG guy to + 26% usage rate, allstar scorer. But hey, who wants truth nowdays.

[zaymon]

It's what I expected to hear. It isn't what I wanted to hear. My translation would be that Clifford feels he needs to break guys down and get them to do what he wants them to do to give them playing time. Coming from another coach, this might resonate on some level, but Clifford simply doesn't have the track record of coaching competitive teams or of developing young talent, so it is really difficult for me to give credence to his methods. He has turned every prospect he has ever coached into a role player, save for Kemba. If this came from Mike Malone, I'd defer to his expertise.

The major issue I have with his approach is that it is really condescending towards the players he is coaching. I don't like the idea of using floor time and the bench as the carrot and stick. Players want to get better or they don't. You aren't going to rewire someone's brain by making them sit on a bench. You give these players the resources and the guidance that they need to maximize whatever potential they have. If they get on well, terrific. If they don't, you move on, but at least you know where you stand. He can attempt to refute the notion that playing time aids in development, but he is fighting a losing battle. We know playing time aids development. This is why it is incorporated into statistical projections.

I think Clifford is a disciplinarian that utilizes hierarchies to effect his methods. He is fairly diplomatic about it, but that doesn't make me detest it any less.

And I want to be clear on a specific point: I'm far less critical of Clifford actually playing young players than I am with Clifford not trusting those players. Fultz and Isaac were starting games long before they were allowed to finish them. I want our young players involved in the offense. I want them making decisions with the ball in their hands. I don't want them out there simply to watch Evan and Vucevic run buddy ball and cover for their defensive deficiencies.

As it pertains to Bamba though, I think it's rather obvious that Clifford does not want to play him. I think it was fairly obvious he was talking about Bamba. Perhaps not directly, in this instance, but certainly in reference to the conversation he had with the NFL coach. This is very problematic to me. Clifford still believes it is all about the X's and O's. That's great if your goal is to win 45% of your games. For as much as we have sucked for the past decade, at no point did I ever envy the Charlotte Bobcats/Hornets.

Your negativity towards Clifford seems forced. For the most part you are countering your own arguments
1. You discredit Clifford and his methods but praise Malone which is doing the same thing with his young players. Porter had to earn his minutes. To be accurate most great developmental coaches limit player minutes if they are not ready. Unless you want to discredit Popovich, Spoelstra, Stotts, Malone.

2. Most players are motivated by money, some by winning. You wont increase their talent and work ethic by playing them. You search for players with high self motivation ( Isaac, hopefully Fultz, Okeke and Anthony) and play them, rest you try to motivate with playing time and future money (Bamba). Your argument is that we dont know which players are worth playing and which not. I dont think its true. Weltman showed he will get rid of players not worth investing to ( Hezonja, Payton, Frazier, Iwundu). Until now he was always right. Which player exactly Clifford buried on the bench who was worth playing ? Bamba was given much more than he was worth until now. You argument is not based in reality.

3. On one hand people complain we dont have future stars and on the other hand we are angry that we dont give star responsibilities to players who are not capable of doing it. Only player with star potential last year was Fultz and imo Clifford pushed him a lot. He was exhausted majority of games, coming down with cramps. I guess people here want to get him injured.....

4. Yes Clifford wasted talent of so many all nba players.

I am sorry but this post is detached from reality. Many good arguments but as a whole its wishfull thinking and trying to shift the blame from players to coaches.

[basketballRob]

Even though Fultz started most of the games last season, they took the ball out of his hands most of the time.

We're going to have a heavy dose of Vuc, Fournier, and Ross this year.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM mobile app

[Bergmaniac]

Has there ever been a time on this board where people weren't complaining the coach isn't playing the young players enough?

[Skybox]

I’m not sure how much of this “readiness” analysis really applies to Bamba, who plays center on a team with an All-Star level center in his prime and no other All-Star level players. If Bamba or Vuc could play any other position, this could maybe be a realistic topic

...is there ANY chance or matchup situation where Bamba could pick up extra minutes this year at stretch 4? He can shoot and he clearly doesn’t mix it up down low. Could he occasionally play LOOONG switchy help defense instead of 100% rim protector? (With Isaac out)...possibly, Cliff doesn’t want to confuse him even more with multiple roles.

[KillMonger]

i think they are playing enough, i just want them involved more.....not standing in a corner....not just a garbage man.....actually involved and not just on the court to run and jump

[pepe1991]

MP jr played 16,7 mpg. Witch is lower than Bamba did as rookie.

He played him in playoffs more for 2 reasons:
1) Porter showed he can be good
2) They lost starter Will Barton for playoffs

Third, "love" for Malone is kind a funny. During rebuild, in 2017-18, Mike Malone starting 5s were made of guys like:
32 yeras old Paul Millsap
30 years old Wilson Chandler
27 years old Wil Barton

off bench rotaion peaces like 34 years old Devin Harris, 27 years old Mason Plumlee, 27 years old Torry Craig... Guess who couldn't even get int rotation? 19th overall pick Malik Beasley, until he proved he actually can play.
Jokic and Murray are supreme talents. Jamal Murray,by the time he ended second year, had 37 games where he scored at least 20 points.
Jokic finished second year with 7 triple doubles.

As far as Bamba vs Clifford goes'? Where is Bamba at practices? Did he did something special in those edited footages? oh no. wait, once again he can't play. Hmm let's find out how posters will spin that narrative to somehow blame coach for player being in bad shape for 3 years straight

[Blue_and_Whte]

Watch on YouTube

Everybody on this board should watch todays Clifford interview, especially the end.

Cliff is 100% correct

[Furinkazan]

Watch on YouTube

[VFX]

People are missing the point here.

If someone hires you to build a house, but only gives you construction paper and Elmer's glue, you wouldn’t blame the guy building the house. You would blame the employer for not supplying the materials to accomplish the job.

Yes, Clifford played Kemba Walker. The 9th pick in his draft and currently on a 4 year / $140m contract with Boston. He’s proven he’s a more than capable talent In this league. It would be more shocking if he didn’t play him and he blew up after leaving Charlotte. He was good then, and he’s good now.

Charlotte had little options for Clifford in his tenure with them. He had to play bad/mediocre talent, similar to his current situation in Orlando. The point in all of this is that Orlando lacks talent and continues to pick late in the draft hoping to change the outcome.

Clifford is just working with what he has (which isn’t much) and there is far less incentive for him to invest playing time into rookies with a task of “playoffs at all costs”.

The problem here is the Front Office and ownerships expectations. This team has hit a ceiling and refuses to take a step back. The only move that signaled anything differently was not resigning DJ, and instead drafting Cole Anthony. Even then, it’s not like DJ wasn’t without his flaws.

If you don’t believe Clifford will play Vuc, Evan, and AG their 33mpg, you are fooling yourself.

[Def Swami]

lol

Read on Twitter

[Def Swami]

Just trade Bamba. He's never going to play here. We're wasting our time if there's no plan to even play him minutes as a back up center. We've completely devalued the pick. Keeping him on the bench doesn't do us or him any service.

I don't blame Clifford. He is who he is. I blame the front office. Just poor roster management. No clear direction for this team. This team is the brain child of Weltman and Hammond.

[jonbob17]

Maybe we are tanking, Bacon and Clark might be out of the league if they were not on the Magic, Birch probably close behind them, and they are set to get significant minutes this year. And we are starting Ennis.
I guess I would prefer young guys with upside that might have a place on the team in the future taking up roster spots and minutes, like making our second round pick, maybe Josh Jackson on the wing.
This motley crew might get the job done. The FO may be savvier than we give them credit for. Tank while looking like we are ready to grind.

[basketballRob]

I feel like Cliff is taking subtle jabs at Mo now.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM mobile app