Official Spec Thread: Heart and Hustle Magic 2.0

[Knightro]

You guys just undersell how good Brown actually is. Odds are, you won't draft player that by age of 25 is capable of being effective 25ppg player and not suck on defense and in same time capable of playing off ball as well.

His team's records have gotten worse as he's gotten more usage and a bigger role offensively.

He's a talented player, but he's not really all that impactful. Definitely not a star. He's 7th on the Celtics in RAPTOR. 9th on the Celtics in WS/48. Stick him on a team that's even worse than the one he's on now and things would continue to devolve.

I'd be interested in acquiring him for the right price, but he's not a guy I'd sacrifice 3 first round picks and two guys just drafted in the first round for.

[SOUL]

I see the offers people would give up for Wiggins so I understand the Brown stuff but Knightro hit the nail on the head.

[basketballRob]

I don't think Brown is a star but he'd be worth Cole, Bamba, and the two first-round picks owed to us.

He can play SG and would balance out our team.

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[Knightro]

I don't think Brown is a star but he'd be worth Cole, Bamba, and the two first-round picks owed to us.

He can play SG and would balance out our team.

Of course he's worth this, but there's a zero percent chance the Celtics would accept that.

[pepe1991]

You guys just undersell how good Brown actually is. Odds are, you won't draft player that by age of 25 is capable of being effective 25ppg player and not suck on defense and in same time capable of playing off ball as well.

His team's records have gotten worse as he's gotten more usage and a bigger role offensively.

He's a talented player, but he's not really all that impactful. Definitely not a star.. 9th on the Celtics in WS/48. Stick him on a team that's even worse than the one he's on now and things would continue to devolve.

I'd be interested in acquiring him for the right price, but he's not a guy I'd sacrifice 3 first round picks and two guys just drafted in the first round for.

When he emerged as star, Celtics had 48-24 record. 10-5 without him, 38-19 without him .
It would be fair to say he didn't mean all that much in terms of W/L record, at least judging by this.

HOWEVER over last two years, Celtics are .500 team when he is out. 6-8 last year without him ( opposite of 30-28 with him) and 7-5 this season . Among 7 wins they collected this year with him, only Bucks had positive record, but in that game GIannis and Middelton didn't play.

He's 7th on the Celtics in RAPTOR

actually 5th.

9th on the Celtics in WS/48

...and Tatum is 7th.... both below Jabari Parker and some guy named Freedom. It's garbage data.

Definitely not a star.

If Magic have +20 ppg , two way wing who averaged 24 ppg at age of 23, that guy on this forum would have been worshiped by everybody, including you.

I'd be interested in acquiring him for the right price, but he's not a guy I'd sacrifice 3 first round picks and two guys just drafted in the first round for.

You sacrifice nothing. Those picks have no value until they become players. It's just stupid stupid mindset of most fans and GMs that unnamed potential top 5 pick in 2024 will be franchise savior.
You literally need guide on internet to see all OKC assets in future. But when you see their actuall basketball team they are SGA trade from being most miserable team in nba for next 5+ years.
On top of that most picks have sort of protection anyway. Also, both Houston and OKC proved that easiest thing in nba is sell players for assets and empty the house. Houston was contender year and half ago, now they are basemant of nba.

In general there is zero and i mean zero reasons why NBA team like Orlando should shy away from high risk trades. What's apsolute worst it will happen ? Star will leave you and you will rebuild over? Oppostie of building 2 wins playoff team in span of 10 years just to be at square one , 10 years later?

And no, Brown is apsolute star. Especially from perspective of team who builts their faith in future around injury prone role player , playmaker without jumpshot, playmaker without ballhandling ability and 6'0 gunner will be "team's future".

Other than Wagner there is really hard to understand why anybody else should be off the table in any Magic trades.

You keep talking about cap space. Who in a blue hell will join team that shapes to be 15-18 wins team?
What good does salary flexiblity does to a team in year nobody good is FA and nobody good will even consider joining? What' the masterplan? Draft another 5 years prospect and shower TJ Warren in money so you can attack 35 wins next year?


Let's say Magic do Cole, Wendell Carter, Bulls, Magic 2022 top 3 protected pick.

So you have left :
Fultz / Suggs
Brown/ Ross / Gary Harris
Wagner / who cares
Isaac
Bamba for rest of a year or trade

By rest of a year Bamba , Ross and Harris are either traded or gone. Your core is FUltz/ Suggs, Brown and Wagner. Isaac is too injury prone to take serious as cornerstone. Isn't that core way more talented than 5-20 team who puts all the faith into ping pong ball and rehab of two role players?

[drsd]

I wouldn't include a top 5 pick for him.

1) If the Celts is resetting, then high draft picks is the BEGININGS of a trade conversation. Orlando's 2022 FRP must be part of the deal.

2) Boston will need cap flexibility, which means adding expiring. So Mr. Harris must be part of the deal.

3) The Celts will want "upside" potential as well, so that adds Anthony and Okeke.


I cannot see a trade with Boston for Brown unless the FRP, Harris, Anthony and Okeke are part of the package. I really can't. And for those saying "that's too much", I agree with the pro-posts above that we have no idea if the 2022 FRP is good or not. Brown is good and is on a palatable contract given his production lines.

[drsd]

Definitely not a star.

If Magic have +20 ppg , two way wing who averaged 24 ppg at age of 23, that guy on this forum would have been worshiped by everybody, including you.

I agree with your whole post. But to pull out this topic: Orlando has been desperate for wing scoring since before the Oladipo vs. Fournier conversation.

AND: as this roster is constructed, the single greatest need is shooting at the wing.

Whether a this-or-that trade is too-much is the wrong persepective for me. What is the right perspective is to ask, is this a core of a future winning roster:

Suggs/Fultz
Brown/Hampton
F-Wagner
Isaac/M-Wagner
Carter/Bamba

For me, it is. It is balanced and deep. And it is about as good as management can hope for given current assets.


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[drsd]

I don't think Brown is a star but he'd be worth Cole, Bamba, and the two first-round picks owed to us.

He can play SG and would balance out our team.

Of course he's worth this, but there's a zero percent chance the Celtics would accept that.

For example: OKC could trade ten FRPs for Brown. The Magic will need a strong package to get Brown.

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[Skybox]

I don't think Brown is a star but he'd be worth Cole, Bamba, and the two first-round picks owed to us.

He can play SG and would balance out our team.

Of course he's worth this, but there's a zero percent chance the Celtics would accept that.

For example: OKC could trade ten FRPs for Brown. The Magic will need a strong package to get Brown.

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Yeah, OKC is interesting. They've got a star in SGA (who is like 23?) and if ANYBODY in the league becomes available due to a rebuild (not a win-now like PHI, although there could always be a 3-way), OKC can simply decide whether or not they want him. They can easily outbid and overpay any time they want...I don't how long Presti can keep his chips in his pocket without some pressure to actually put a bball team in front of the paying customers...it's easy to appreciate his master plan from a RealGM perspective but, if I'm a local fan, it's a little less palatable-if you expect me to buy tickets, wear the shirt, etc...at some point, it's a business, especially in a small market.

[J the Drafter]

Six players for a non-hall of famer is excessive. You’d need to assume the worst of both players and picks (which, granted, plenty of people here are inclined to do) to believe the trade is worth it.

[Knightro]

Let's say Magic do Cole, Wendell Carter, Bulls, Magic 2022 top 3 protected pick.

So you have left :
Fultz / Suggs
Brown/ Ross / Gary Harris
Wagner / who cares
Isaac
Bamba for rest of a year or trade

By rest of a year Bamba , Ross and Harris are either traded or gone. Your core is FUltz/ Suggs, Brown and Wagner. Isaac is too injury prone to take serious as cornerstone. Isn't that core way more talented than 5-20 team who puts all the faith into ping pong ball and rehab of two role players?

I don't think the Celtics would even consider that deal for what it's worth.

But let's say they would...

What exactly is that roster you've laid out going to do? I fail to see what you're trying to accomplish with a deal like this. It screams "I don't agree with tanking and don't want to see them play lotto ball!" and nothing more than that. And that's fine, I know that's how you feel - but how does it make the Magic's long-term outlook any better?

This Magic are 5-20 right now. Adding Jaylen Brown and subtracting Anthony and Carter does what exactly?

Orlando would absolutely not be a title contender (and I'd argue not even a playoff team without *multiple* additional moves), but they're also not going to be as horrible as they are now either.

So best case we're back to the Vucevic/Fournier stuck in the middle days? How is that appealing at all?

How do they improve any further? They'd be sending out their 2022 pick, so they'd have to spend money this summer in free agency just to chase the possibility of the playoffs?

I know you don't like tanking, but the solution just isn't "let's make a trade to make us better in the short-term" when the rest of the roster is this bad. The Magic would have to make half a dozen moves just to get this team into a playoff caliber roster.

And then what? We're cool with getting bounced in the first round again?

Rebuilding sucks. It takes a long time *and* you need a lot of luck, but cashing in multiple assets for a win now piece just isn't the move.

[Knightro]

Whether a this-or-that trade is too-much is the wrong persepective for me. What is the right perspective is to ask, is this a core of a future winning roster:

Suggs/Fultz
Brown/Hampton
F-Wagner
Isaac/M-Wagner
Carter/Bamba

For me, it is. It is balanced and deep. And it is about as good as management can hope for given current assets.

To me, this is absolutely not a core capable of winning anything significant, no.

"Better than we have right now" can be true and also be not good enough at the same time. The goal isn't to be better than they are right now because they're intentionally bad right now. So they're going to improve over time no matter what. The goal is to build a team capable of winning significantly, deep playoff runs.

Could that core make the playoffs? Maybe. But four of the nine guys listed are not positive contributors and at least 2-3 of them have significant injury concerns.

And if the Magic ride with this core and don't win immediately, the clock is ticking on Brown's departure as he's a UFA in just two years.

[drsd]

Whether a this-or-that trade is too-much is the wrong persepective for me. What is the right perspective is to ask, is this a core of a future winning roster:

Suggs/Fultz
Brown/Hampton
F-Wagner
Isaac/M-Wagner
Carter/Bamba

For me, it is. It is balanced and deep. And it is about as good as management can hope for given current assets.

To me, this is absolutely not a core capable of winning anything significant, no.

"Better than we have right now" can be true and also be not good enough at the same time. The goal isn't to be better than they are right now because they're intentionally bad right now. So they're going to improve over time no matter what. The goal is to build a team capable of winning significantly, deep playoff runs.

Could that core make the playoffs? Maybe. But four of the nine guys listed are not positive contributors and at least 2-3 of them have significant injury concerns.

And if the Magic ride with this core and don't win immediately, the clock is ticking on Brown's departure as he's a UFA in just two years.

For me Orlando needs to get to mediocre to then get too good. These are steps. What I do like about the above 9 is that there is a clear path to 35+ wins, and development to get to 50. But that's the Indiana Pacers of old. How that roster can be further improved my be difficult, given that its purpose is based on balance. Any changes unbalance by definition.


Anyhow, there needs to be a point where the Magic roster is not 80% composed of PGs and PFs.
PG minutes in: Anthony, Suggs, Fultz, Carter-Williams, Hampton, Mulder, and Moore
PF minutes in: Isaac, Carter, Okeke, F-Wagner, M-Wagner

That cannot continue going in to next season.


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[Knightro]

For me Orlando needs to get to mediocre to then get too good. These are steps. What I do like about the above 9 is that there is a clear path to 35+ wins, and development to get to 50. But that's the Indiana Pacers of old. How that roster can be further improved my be difficult, given that its purpose is based on balance. Any changes unbalance by definition.

Anyhow, there needs to be a point where the Magic roster is not 80% composed of PGs and PFs.
PG minutes in: Anthony, Suggs, Fultz, Carter-Williams, Hampton, Mulder, and Moore
PF minutes in: Isaac, Carter, Okeke, F-Wagner, M-Wagner

That cannot continue going in to next season.

This whole "the Magic only have PG's and PF's" thing is just not as severe as you're making it.

Injuries are making it seem more exaggerated than it really is and several of the players you listed aren't really natural PGs or PFs anyway.

[Skybox]

I'm not sure how you can hope to program a team to all mature and peak at the same time. So, if you can get significantly better by trading for a young guy (or two) who is really good, you do it....Even if you draft well, every year, you should be improving every year. If your tank lasts more than a couple of years, it's not working. Water doesn't go from cold directly to boiling, teams don't go from utter garbage to contender directly. If you rely on "tank & draft", you end up paying the first wave of guys before anyone peaks...so what's the difference, give me a proven NBA basketball player any day. As long as he isn't older than 25 and isn't on a bad-decision max deal, I want him...and I will trade just about any lesser pieces to move the team a few years of development ahead.

[Bensational]

Let's say Magic do Cole, Wendell Carter, Bulls, Magic 2022 top 3 protected pick.

So you have left :
Fultz / Suggs
Brown/ Ross / Gary Harris
Wagner / who cares
Isaac
Bamba for rest of a year or trade

By rest of a year Bamba , Ross and Harris are either traded or gone. Your core is FUltz/ Suggs, Brown and Wagner. Isaac is too injury prone to take serious as cornerstone. Isn't that core way more talented than 5-20 team who puts all the faith into ping pong ball and rehab of two role players?

I don't think the Celtics would even consider that deal...

For where the C's are, I don't think chasing draft picks is what they want. A swap of Simmons for Brown would give them a far better return immediately, and push them closer to title aspirations or at least keep them on a similar trajectory. Our offer doesn't really compete with that, unless we swap the picks for Isaac + Ross and they see high value in their addition.

For us? Adding Brown wouldn't push us straight into the playoffs. We'd likely suck another year or two still and have the chance to continue acquiring assets. Our team trajectory might grow with his trajectory, as he learns to become a lead option and then learns to become a winner as one - if he can. If he can't, maybe he's a great sidekick to Chet/Banchero/Wembenyama/etc?

[basketballRob]

For me Orlando needs to get to mediocre to then get too good. These are steps. What I do like about the above 9 is that there is a clear path to 35+ wins, and development to get to 50. But that's the Indiana Pacers of old. How that roster can be further improved my be difficult, given that its purpose is based on balance. Any changes unbalance by definition.

Anyhow, there needs to be a point where the Magic roster is not 80% composed of PGs and PFs.
PG minutes in: Anthony, Suggs, Fultz, Carter-Williams, Hampton, Mulder, and Moore
PF minutes in: Isaac, Carter, Okeke, F-Wagner, M-Wagner

That cannot continue going in to next season.

This whole "the Magic only have PG's and PF's" thing is just not as severe as you're making it.

Injuries are making it seem more exaggerated than it really is and several of the players you listed aren't really natural PGs or PFs anyway.

Mcw, Harris, RJ, Suggs, Moore, Cole all have under a 6'8 wingspan which is PG size. Not sure if this is normal, I haven't looked closely at other rosters.

Edit; plus Mulder. Ross also has a 6'7" wingspan.

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[The Effect]

Six players for a non-hall of famer is excessive. You’d need to assume the worst of both players and picks (which, granted, plenty of people here are inclined to do) to believe the trade is worth it.

Anyone decent makes it into the pro basketball hall of fame, so theres no way to say that brown definitely wont be a hall of famer

But, he is a 25 year old who over the past 3 seasons has averaged 23, 6 3 while being one of the better wing defenders in the league and has helped lead a team to the Eastern conference finals. hes also improved by leaps and bounds since he entered the league.... If he keeps up this upward trejectory, he can very easily be a hall of famer (again, everyone makes, i mean Christian Laettner is a hall of famer, and theres much worse than him but thats a name that popped into my head)

All this is moot anyways as i doubt he would want to play in orlando during a rebuild and probably wouldnt be too happy to get traded here

[The Effect]

For us? Adding Brown wouldn't push us straight into the playoffs. We'd likely suck another year or two still and have the chance to continue acquiring assets. Our team trajectory might grow with his trajectory, as he learns to become a lead option and then learns to become a winner as one - if he can. If he can't, maybe he's a great sidekick to Chet/Banchero/Wembenyama/etc?

Maybe not, but that would be a hell of a way to get this rebuild going........Building a team around Suggs, brown, Franzchise and wendell........thats a potential playoff team next season (

[drsd]

This whole "the Magic only have PG's and PF's" thing is just not as severe as you're making it.

Injuries are making it seem more exaggerated than it really is and several of the players you listed aren't really natural PGs or PFs anyway.

Mcw, Harris, RJ, Suggs, Moore, Cole all have under a 6'8 wingspan which is PG size. Not sure if this is normal, I haven't looked closely at other rosters.

Edit; plus Mulder. Ross also has a 6'7" wingspan.

Management has prioritised length. Indeed, when the Magic drafted Anthony, his lack of length surprised many pundits given Orlando's obsessions here.


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