The Tobias Harris Situation

[MellowRose]

I'm done with Tobias. Trade him for someone who fits our needs, Hennigan.

[tiderulz]

Different situations. They are not treated equally because they aren't equal players. We're not at the decision roads with Payton and Dipo. They are brand new NBA players who have been developing their games. There is more leniency for them at this point. Neither of them are tweeners that are difficult to figure out how the puzzle piece works. Neither of them have a #4 overall draft pick sitting in the wings behind them.

Harris's best role for us is as an elite bench player. His versatility is both a plus and a minus. It's a plus because it allows us to use him at different positions. It's a minus because he can't play either position full time with the Magic (as they are built around Vuc) expecting to have a great team. Vucevic is locked up long term so Harris' weaknesses can't be masked like they would be if we had a strong defensive Center. Can Harris be happy coming off the bench AND being paid like a valuable bench player? In the $8-10M per year range?

criticism of play should be the same.

Sure. If you're talking about where they can improve... and what things they need to improve in. You can add in a lot of things. But it shouldn't have as much effect today as it does for Tobe since he is a RFA and they aren't. You can't compare a rookie and second year player to that of a 5th year player equally. We'll be much more critical of any player looking for their second contract since by then, who they are is much less of a guessing game.

What did you think of Harris' game tonight?

i think you can compare, if they are doing the same things. If the ball is stopping in Dipo's hands (which it used to when he was playing PG, i do like him better now that he can concentrate on just SG) or when he goes 6-20 on a night, and he hasnt shown me this extreme defense. Yet on a night when Dipo will go 6-20 and Harris goes 5-15, people will only criticize Harris. I agree that situations are different with regard to RFA and his contract situation. Like i said, im for whatever improves the team. It just seems that some players escape criticism while doing the exact things that Harris gets criticized for, and i cant understand why.

As for the game last night, i had to take my kids out, so i didnt get to watch it. But even though he has said the right things in the paper, you can tell he doesnt like coming off the bench and having his minutes reduced. Again, similar situation, Harris comes back from injury and JV puts him off the bench, Dipo comes back from injury and is immediately starting at SG, which we can all agree seems to have bother Fournier who was playing well in the starting lineup and is now a shell of his previous play.

[tiderulz]

I'm not sure if this is what you mean, but Gordan Hayward and Chandler Parsons got the max.

I'm hoping he'd take something like Isaiah Thomas. Thomas averaged 20 and 6 and got a 4 year, $27M deal from the Suns.

yeah, but PG is a stacked position, wing isnt right now. I do think that Dallas is regretting that max deal to Parsons, just like Indy regretted max to Hibbert. I dont think Harris will get a max offer but something in the range of $12-13/yr

[tiderulz]

Parsons put up really good numbers as a major piece on a 54-win team and he proved he could continue putting up those numbers in the playoffs as well. There are way more question marks in Harris' corner that teams will definitely take into consideration.

Hayward is probably the best comparison we can make since he was also on a bad team, but wasn't he viewed around the league as a better overall player than harris is showing now? I remember seeing several rumors of hayward receiving max level interest from multiple teams last season, but nearly 50 games into this season I am not hearing that level of hype for harris. Have we even seen one report of a team being interested in harris?? I've only seen the couple rumors from a ny tabloid saying harris is interested in the knicks, not the other way around. I feel like outside of Orlando he is being viewed as a numbers guy... I'm not complaining if that's the case because I believe in him and want to retain him for as cheap as possible. I think he'll easily get more than Thomas though...

you are only going to hear rumors, otherwise its tampering since Harris is still under contract for us.

[tiderulz]

Just me or does a Tobias for Jrue Holiday trade make sense?

Finally gets us a legitimate backup point. Start Elf-Dipo-AG-Frye-Vuc and have him lead the 2nd unit with Marble, Evan, O'Quinn and Dedmon for now. He could play with either one of Payton or Vic too.

Get our future at the other forward spot this draft, sign a vet wing in the Tayshaun/Battier mold. Oh, and maybe a new coach?

how would that make sense? Jrue is a starting PG, has been for years and is 24. I cant see him being a "good soldier" and moving to the bench willingly. plus, you want to pay the backup PG $11mil+/yr?

[Blue_and_Whte]

criticism of play should be the same.

Sure. If you're talking about where they can improve... and what things they need to improve in. You can add in a lot of things. But it shouldn't have as much effect today as it does for Tobe since he is a RFA and they aren't. You can't compare a rookie and second year player to that of a 5th year player equally. We'll be much more critical of any player looking for their second contract since by then, who they are is much less of a guessing game.

What did you think of Harris' game tonight?

i think you can compare, if they are doing the same things. If the ball is stopping in Dipo's hands (which it used to when he was playing PG, i do like him better now that he can concentrate on just SG) or when he goes 6-20 on a night, and he hasnt shown me this extreme defense. Yet on a night when Dipo will go 6-20 and Harris goes 5-15, people will only criticize Harris. I agree that situations are different with regard to RFA and his contract situation. Like i said, im for whatever improves the team. It just seems that some players escape criticism while doing the exact things that Harris gets criticized for, and i cant understand why.

As for the game last night, i had to take my kids out, so i didnt get to watch it. But even though he has said the right things in the paper, you can tell he doesnt like coming off the bench and having his minutes reduced. Again, similar situation, Harris comes back from injury and JV puts him off the bench, Dipo comes back from injury and is immediately starting at SG, which we can all agree seems to have bother Fournier who was playing well in the starting lineup and is now a shell of his previous play.

I seem to remember a time when Tobes would always get the benefit of the doubt, all the time, and If you said one negative thing about him you'd get flamed. Now it seems as though people are finally seeing that he's a 17/8 player (like I said he would be all offseason.) when they thought he would be a "beast" 20+ppg 10 rpg player without Afflalo and Jameer.

People hyped him up in their head and now reality has hit that he's close to his ceiling and people are kinda turning on him. I think his recent slump is because of Vaughn personally and even last night he only played 20 mpg which makes no sense to me considering our record when hitting the 100 point mark. If anything Tobes is a consistent scorer and rebounder which are things the team is struggling with. Its no coincidence that we've been struggling on the glass since his minutes have been capped or whatever Vaughn is doing. He's our second best scorer and rebounder and needs to play big minutes for us to win.

Just me or does a Tobias for Jrue Holiday trade make sense?

Finally gets us a legitimate backup point. Start Elf-Dipo-AG-Frye-Vuc and have him lead the 2nd unit with Marble, Evan, O'Quinn and Dedmon for now. He could play with either one of Payton or Vic too.

Get our future at the other forward spot this draft, sign a vet wing in the Tayshaun/Battier mold. Oh, and maybe a new coach?

how would that make sense? Jrue is a starting PG, has been for years and is 24. I cant see him being a "good soldier" and moving to the bench willingly. plus, you want to pay the backup PG $11mil+/yr?

and Harris for Holiday makes no sense....

[VoiceOReason]

So if henny doesn't want to spend on Harris:

Mkg& vonelh for Tobias ridnour harkless

Ryno,ajinca, &1st for Frye and Tobias

Amir Johnson,Bruno cabcio,&1st for Tobias,a.nNicholson &harkless

Otto porter, seraphin, Webster& 1st, for Tobias , harkless, a.Nicholson

I don't know just spit balling here and keeping in mind it could be a half year rental for the other team...and trying to use the henny thought process of obtaining a underutilized player that could blossom..

Still not saying I wouldn't try and keep Tobias...but was just looking at what could be out there

Just for a talking point I wanted to repost... Nobody chimed in when I posted before... Still don't know if I would resign him or not but what do you guys think of these possibilities?

[VoiceOReason]

Probably giving up to much in some of those deals but keeping in mind it could be a half years rental for the other team

[BadWolf]

Mkg& vonelh for Tobias ridnour harkless
Similar value SF + lottery pick - no way it gets done

Ryno,ajinca, &1st for Frye and Tobias
Ryno + some sweetener might work, you can't really throw in Frye and get a first. Ryno for frye and Tobes - i'd do it if I'm No, depending on their salary situation

Amir Johnson,Bruno cabcio,&1st for Tobias,a.nNicholson &harkless
selling low, Amir is UFA, Caboclo is a wild card here, so you might strike gold or hit rock bottom

Otto porter, seraphin, Webster& 1st, for Tobias , harkless, a.Nicholson
eh... Porter looks really average, maybe one of those JJ for Tobes deals?

[BadWolf]

I seem to remember a time when Tobes would always get the benefit of the doubt, all the time, and If you said one negative thing about him you'd get flamed. Now it seems as though people are finally seeing that he's a 17/8 player (like I said he would be all offseason.) when they thought he would be a "beast" 20+ppg 10 rpg player without Afflalo and Jameer.

People hyped him up in their head and now reality has hit that he's close to his ceiling and people are kinda turning on him. I think his recent slump is because of Vaughn personally and even last night he only played 20 mpg which makes no sense to me considering our record when hitting the 100 point mark. If anything Tobes is a consistent scorer and rebounder which are things the team is struggling with. Its no coincidence that we've been struggling on the glass since his minutes have been capped or whatever Vaughn is doing. He's our second best scorer and rebounder and needs to play big minutes for us to win.

To get to 20, his usage rate should go up, but it stayed more or less the same, with most shots going to Vuc and new players Frye, Fournier and rookies. He's still third in usage rate.. he'd need a few more minutes. throw him two more minutes and a percentage or two of plays, and he'd get three more shots, good for those three points he's missing. As for 10 rebounds... that's not realistic at SF spot at all.

[cedric76]

With kemba down , hornets would jump for a package Harris for vonleh

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Remind me again, what evidence do you have that Vonleh can produce in the NBA?

None

But don't want to overpay Harris
But don't want to lose Harris for nothing

So gambling on someone who could be a perfect fit is worth the risk

Vonleh is hard working kid from Indiana with all the tools to succeed next to vuc,elf and co

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[mojosodope]

Sure. If you're talking about where they can improve... and what things they need to improve in. You can add in a lot of things. But it shouldn't have as much effect today as it does for Tobe since he is a RFA and they aren't. You can't compare a rookie and second year player to that of a 5th year player equally. We'll be much more critical of any player looking for their second contract since by then, who they are is much less of a guessing game.

What did you think of Harris' game tonight?

i think you can compare, if they are doing the same things. If the ball is stopping in Dipo's hands (which it used to when he was playing PG, i do like him better now that he can concentrate on just SG) or when he goes 6-20 on a night, and he hasnt shown me this extreme defense. Yet on a night when Dipo will go 6-20 and Harris goes 5-15, people will only criticize Harris. I agree that situations are different with regard to RFA and his contract situation. Like i said, im for whatever improves the team. It just seems that some players escape criticism while doing the exact things that Harris gets criticized for, and i cant understand why.

As for the game last night, i had to take my kids out, so i didnt get to watch it. But even though he has said the right things in the paper, you can tell he doesnt like coming off the bench and having his minutes reduced. Again, similar situation, Harris comes back from injury and JV puts him off the bench, Dipo comes back from injury and is immediately starting at SG, which we can all agree seems to have bother Fournier who was playing well in the starting lineup and is now a shell of his previous play.

I seem to remember a time when Tobes would always get the benefit of the doubt, all the time, and If you said one negative thing about him you'd get flamed. Now it seems as though people are finally seeing that he's a 17/8 player (like I said he would be all offseason.) when they thought he would be a "beast" 20+ppg 10 rpg player without Afflalo and Jameer.

People hyped him up in their head and now reality has hit that he's close to his ceiling and people are kinda turning on him. I think his recent slump is because of Vaughn personally and even last night he only played 20 mpg which makes no sense to me considering our record when hitting the 100 point mark. If anything Tobes is a consistent scorer and rebounder which are things the team is struggling with. Its no coincidence that we've been struggling on the glass since his minutes have been capped or whatever Vaughn is doing. He's our second best scorer and rebounder and needs to play big minutes for us to win.

Just me or does a Tobias for Jrue Holiday trade make sense?

Finally gets us a legitimate backup point. Start Elf-Dipo-AG-Frye-Vuc and have him lead the 2nd unit with Marble, Evan, O'Quinn and Dedmon for now. He could play with either one of Payton or Vic too.

Get our future at the other forward spot this draft, sign a vet wing in the Tayshaun/Battier mold. Oh, and maybe a new coach?

how would that make sense? Jrue is a starting PG, has been for years and is 24. I cant see him being a "good soldier" and moving to the bench willingly. plus, you want to pay the backup PG $11mil+/yr?

and Harris for Holiday makes no sense....

Not sure there was ever a time where Harris was given the benefit of the doubt. The offseason was filled with people who argued he was worth no more than the 8-9 per year we offered him.

Your selective memory on claiming he was a career 17/8 player is comical at best. For 2 years you claimed that Harkless was a better option at the 3 than him.

Now it appears the market is dictating a value above what we COULD have resigned him for and this board is ready to pretend that we will be better off without him, nevermind the fact that the slump he is in is almost purely manufactured by our dingbat of a coach.

Let's take a trip down memory lane to the first 5 games of the regular season when Harris was essentially in another slump and stinking it up. Half the board was ready to get rid of him then as well.

[magicfan217]

I wish we had a real coach so we could at least fairly evaluate him.


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[Magic#1]

Here's how I see it. We're not going to be able to keep all our young players long term. It just can't happen unfortunately. We have at least three players who we will and should give big contracts to in the long term: Vic, Vooch (already done) and Payton. Then you add in AG if he keeps developing. Another big contract will be difficult to pull off. Then you add in guys like KOQ, Mo, and Nicholson. Maybe we let them walk, maybe we don't. Some of these guys are going to get more lucrative offers elsewhere. Still, clearly, Tobes is very, very good. Right now, I think you match any offer and figure it out later. He has shown good character, seems to like it here and I'm thinking would like to stay. He's also perhaps our best offensive player and has gotten a little better at playing in a team game. You just can't let a guy like that walk. Keep him around, and if he fits then keep him. If he doesn't, then trade him for whatever we can get.
Also, another big variable for me is who we draft this year because we're looking at another--at least--top 10 pick. If we take a Johnson, Oubre, Hezonja, Winslow, then Tobes is probably gone. But if we take a big, then I can see us keeping him around. It's a tough decision, but if we let him walk then I think that's far riskier than trying to finding a trade partner in two years once our other guys have hopefully developed more.

[VoiceOReason]

Mkg& vonelh for Tobias ridnour harkless
Similar value SF + lottery pick - no way it gets done

Ryno,ajinca, &1st for Frye and Tobias
Ryno + some sweetener might work, you can't really throw in Frye and get a first. Ryno for frye and Tobes - i'd do it if I'm No, depending on their salary situation

Amir Johnson,Bruno cabcio,&1st for Tobias,a.nNicholson &harkless
selling low, Amir is UFA, Caboclo is a wild card here, so you might strike gold or hit rock bottom

Otto porter, seraphin, Webster& 1st, for Tobias , harkless, a.Nicholson
eh... Porter looks really average, maybe one of those JJ for Tobes deals?

Mkg trade= I thought they could use some more scoring now that kemba went down and ridnour plays some of for them...they get hark to replace d they lose...and I view Tobias as more than equal value sf but I see what your saying....


Ryno trade= the first is because they need a sf and Frye does some of what ryno does plus ajinca is barely in the rotation...Frye could back up some 5 for them also

Cobulco=. Maybe gold who knows just seems like a henny type deal...maybe Amir becomes rim protector off bench and provide what oquinn does at cheaper price in off-season?

Otto porter= just another henny sneaky move? He could possibly develop like Tobias? Seriphan seems like he plays well with minutes also...


Who knows I was just trying to think a little out of the box...all deals would be like wth at the beginning like hennigan always seems to do

I never try to propose trades and I like Tobias but don't want to invest more than $10 mill a year in him ...hopefully hennigan has some plan that will make everything work out

[BCS]

I believe the Suns can be good trade partners for Tobias...maybe, depends how they value Tobias. He seems to fit the team, they are trying to stay in the playoff picture, young talent and an expendable pg in Dragic. Now we don't need Dragic, this is where the Rockets can step in. They want a quality PG and they also have some good young players. So something close to this...

Orl gets: Capela or Jones, Bullock and Beverley
PHX gets: Tobias, Terry and O'quinn or Nicholson
Hou gets: Dragic and Willie Green

For Hou, well obviously they get Dragic. For Phx, they improve greatly at the SF spot with Tobias, and also get younger as they are a young team. More importantly they also make a push to stay in the playoff picture.

For us, Bullock I've always liked, a spot up shooter who is not ball dominant which we desperately need but can also defend, Beverley can fill the backup PG role we need while preserving a defensive identity and pressuring the ball handler just like Elf does, and then we have Jones or Capela. Capela is a project, young and still needs to develop, but he can become the rim protector we want, and then we have Jones, young proven player who can shoot the 3 but I believe has a serious injury and is a risk to acquire. Capela or Jones is a hard decision for me, I personally would risk it and try for Jones.

We bring in players with a defensive identity which our team is missing but can also shoot the ball well and fill needs for our team. What do you guys think?

[eyriq]

I would wet my pants and cry tears of joy if we traded Harris for Ryan Anderson.

[Skin]

i think you can compare, if they are doing the same things. If the ball is stopping in Dipo's hands (which it used to when he was playing PG, i do like him better now that he can concentrate on just SG) or when he goes 6-20 on a night, and he hasnt shown me this extreme defense. Yet on a night when Dipo will go 6-20 and Harris goes 5-15, people will only criticize Harris. I agree that situations are different with regard to RFA and his contract situation. Like i said, im for whatever improves the team. It just seems that some players escape criticism while doing the exact things that Harris gets criticized for, and i cant understand why.

There are existing criticisms for players like Payton and Oladipo, but they aren't magnified as much because:

1) They are still developing
2) They have limited NBA experience
3) They aren't in a contract year where we need to make a decision on what to do with them
4) They aren't tweeners

Harris is in his 5th season. When Payton and Dipo are 5th year players, I'm sure that their criticisms will be talked about in great length as we discuss whether to keep them or not and how much we can afford for them. I think that is easy to understand.

[VoiceOReason]

I would wet my pants and cry tears of joy if we traded Harris for Ryan Anderson.

Lol well I'd want Frye gone along with Tobias if we were getting Ryan...what kind of deal do you think would work between the teams?

[Skin]

I would wet my pants and cry tears of joy if we traded Harris for Ryan Anderson.

Why? Harris is a better player.

If you're not a fan of defense then I can see wanting Ryno back, but he's worse than Frye. Waaay worse. Heck.. Based on the top 100 Power Forwards in the league in Defensive RPM, Ryno ranks 99 out of 100. Almost dead last. -3.61 DRPM

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_ ... position/6

Frye is 37th among PFs with a 0.61 DRPM. Tobias is 42nd among SFs with a -0.71 DRPM.

...This is for tiderulz who says Elfrid's defense is questionable because he is a risk taker supposedly...

Payton is 3rd best among PGs with a 1.95 DRPM.