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The case for Jonathan Isaac

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Re: The case for Jonathan Isaac 

Post#121 » by Shady Franchise » Fri Jun 2, 2017 5:53 pm

Skin wrote:
Shady Franchise wrote:
BadMofoPimp wrote:
The OP compared Isaac to a potential Dwight and I retorted.

Instead of following the thread, people attacked my character. That is not right and some people, not yourself, attack most posts I make many times without valid arguments just because I don't agree with them.


Honestly, I don't know who those people are. I usually skip all the back and forth stuff and try to focus on facts and videos. I do apologize for messing around though, and I must have missed that Dwight comparison.

No, don't folllow BMP's inability to read. There was never a Dwight comparison. He's the only one who read the OP and came away with that silly notion.

Haha, I was trying to squash things, but in no way do I wish to be associated with his inabilities. 8-)
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Re: The case for Jonathan Isaac 

Post#122 » by BadMofoPimp » Fri Jun 2, 2017 6:01 pm

Skin wrote:
Shady Franchise wrote:
BadMofoPimp wrote:
The OP compared Isaac to a potential Dwight and I retorted.

Instead of following the thread, people attacked my character. That is not right and some people, not yourself, attack most posts I make many times without valid arguments just because I don't agree with them.


Honestly, I don't know who those people are. I usually skip all the back and forth stuff and try to focus on facts and videos. I do apologize for messing around though, and I must have missed that Dwight comparison.

No, don't folllow BMP's inability to read. There was never a Dwight comparison. He's the only one who read the OP and came away with that silly notion.


I retorted to your statement with my own stating that I think DSJ has a higher ceiling than Isaacs. I am sorry I didn't mention "Potential" Dwight. Because, everybody makes absurd statements like that around here. I was just singled out with personal attacks.

Instead of attacking me, try debating me for a change.

New Age Center - The Magic have always established themselves around an elite Center to propel them to the Finals (Shaq/Dwight). The next time this happens, it could be around a new age center in the mold of Jonathan Isaac.
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Re: The case for Jonathan Isaac 

Post#123 » by Nemesis21 » Fri Jun 2, 2017 6:03 pm

BadMofoPimp wrote:
Skin wrote:
Shady Franchise wrote:
Honestly, I don't know who those people are. I usually skip all the back and forth stuff and try to focus on facts and videos. I do apologize for messing around though, and I must have missed that Dwight comparison.

No, don't folllow BMP's inability to read. There was never a Dwight comparison. He's the only one who read the OP and came away with that silly notion.


I never compared. I retorted to your statement with my own stating that I think DSJ has a higher ceiling than Isaacs. I am sorry I didn't mention "Potential" Dwight. Because, everybody makes absurd statements like that around here. I was just singled out with personal attacks.

New Age Center - The Magic have always established themselves around an elite Center to propel them to the Finals (Shaq/Dwight). The next time this happens, it could be around a new age center in the mold of Jonathan Isaac.



Oh no, you didn't?


Quit with the attack BS. No one is attacking you.

See below


BadMofoPimp wrote:
fendilim wrote:
p0peye wrote:If DSJ is off the board at the time we pick, I'm all for Isaac. I don't think we should be looking for a guy which fits next to Gordon (or anyone else on our roster). We are looking for a guy to build around.

But is he a guy to build around?


I think DSJ has a better chance of becoming the next Lilliard than Isaac becoming the next Dwight. That is a given.
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Re: The case for Jonathan Isaac 

Post#124 » by BadMofoPimp » Fri Jun 2, 2017 6:06 pm

Nemesis21 wrote:
BadMofoPimp wrote:
Skin wrote:No, don't folllow BMP's inability to read. There was never a Dwight comparison. He's the only one who read the OP and came away with that silly notion.


I never compared. I retorted to your statement with my own stating that I think DSJ has a higher ceiling than Isaacs. I am sorry I didn't mention "Potential" Dwight. Because, everybody makes absurd statements like that around here. I was just singled out with personal attacks.

New Age Center - The Magic have always established themselves around an elite Center to propel them to the Finals (Shaq/Dwight). The next time this happens, it could be around a new age center in the mold of Jonathan Isaac.



Oh no, you didn't?


Quit with the attack BS. No one is attacking you.

See below


BadMofoPimp wrote:
fendilim wrote:But is he a guy to build around?


I think DSJ has a better chance of becoming the next Lilliard than Isaac becoming the next Dwight. That is a given.


And, INSTEAD of debating me, you attacked me.

I said the words "I Think" and "Chance".

Do yo actually read, or just react. :banghead:
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Re: The case for Jonathan Isaac 

Post#125 » by KillMonger » Fri Jun 2, 2017 6:07 pm

strengths and weaknesses in one video

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Re: The case for Jonathan Isaac 

Post#126 » by Nemesis21 » Fri Jun 2, 2017 6:10 pm

BadMofoPimp wrote:
Nemesis21 wrote:
BadMofoPimp wrote:
I never compared. I retorted to your statement with my own stating that I think DSJ has a higher ceiling than Isaacs. I am sorry I didn't mention "Potential" Dwight. Because, everybody makes absurd statements like that around here. I was just singled out with personal attacks.




Oh no, you didn't?


Quit with the attack BS. No one is attacking you.

See below


BadMofoPimp wrote:
I think DSJ has a better chance of becoming the next Lilliard than Isaac becoming the next Dwight. That is a given.


And, INSTEAD of debating me, you attacked me.

I said the words "I Think" and "Chance".

Do yo actually read, or just react. :banghead:



You don't know the meaning of attacking or debating. Stop whining for the hell of it. Think and chance who gives a....

Next time word your sentence differently, many people here get from how you worded it that you/Skin are comparing the two.


So since you are saying to weren't trying to compare them, just...........


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Re: The case for Jonathan Isaac 

Post#127 » by BadMofoPimp » Fri Jun 2, 2017 6:13 pm

Nemesis21 wrote:
BadMofoPimp wrote:
Nemesis21 wrote:

Oh no, you didn't?


Quit with the attack BS. No one is attacking you.

See below




And, INSTEAD of debating me, you attacked me.

I said the words "I Think" and "Chance".

Do yo actually read, or just react. :banghead:



You don't know the meaning of attacking or debating. Stop whining for the hell of it. Think and chance who gives a....

Next time word your sentence differently, many people here get from how you worded it that you/Skin are comparing the two.


So since you are saying to weren't trying to compare them, just...........


Image


Well, you claim you "know" things with no facts. At least I debate and admit I express personal opinions. There is a huge difference. Maybe, you will learn that someday.

If you can't debate me, LET IT GO!
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Re: The case for Jonathan Isaac 

Post#128 » by Skin » Fri Jun 2, 2017 6:18 pm

BadMofoPimp wrote:
Skin wrote:
Shady Franchise wrote:
Honestly, I don't know who those people are. I usually skip all the back and forth stuff and try to focus on facts and videos. I do apologize for messing around though, and I must have missed that Dwight comparison.

No, don't folllow BMP's inability to read. There was never a Dwight comparison. He's the only one who read the OP and came away with that silly notion.


I retorted to your statement with my own stating that I think DSJ has a higher ceiling than Isaacs. I am sorry I didn't mention "Potential" Dwight. Because, everybody makes absurd statements like that around here. I was just singled out with personal attacks.

Instead of attacking me, try debating me for a change.

New Age Center - The Magic have always established themselves around an elite Center to propel them to the Finals (Shaq/Dwight). The next time this happens, it could be around a new age center in the mold of Jonathan Isaac.

BMP, you're one of my favorite posters and I like your style.

So in order to make this more clear for you, I will not use the name Dwight or Shaq like I did in my OP.

Here goes...

I think that Isaac will at the very least be a part time Center in the NBA in small ball line ups. As the NBA continues to see an increase in this trend, perhaps Isaac will follow the footsteps of previous Magic big men who have helped to lead their teams to the Finals.
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Re: The case for Jonathan Isaac 

Post#129 » by Nemesis21 » Fri Jun 2, 2017 6:19 pm

BadMofoPimp wrote:
Nemesis21 wrote:
BadMofoPimp wrote:
And, INSTEAD of debating me, you attacked me.

I said the words "I Think" and "Chance".

Do yo actually read, or just react. :banghead:



You don't know the meaning of attacking or debating. Stop whining for the hell of it. Think and chance who gives a....

Next time word your sentence differently, many people here get from how you worded it that you/Skin are comparing the two.


So since you are saying to weren't trying to compare them, just...........


Image


Well, you claim you "know" things with no facts. At least I debate and admit I express personal opinions. There is a huge difference. Maybe, you will learn that someday.

If you can't debate me, LET IT GO!



I'm done, it's like talking to a wall.


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Re: The case for Jonathan Isaac 

Post#130 » by BadMofoPimp » Fri Jun 2, 2017 6:20 pm

Skin wrote:
BadMofoPimp wrote:
Skin wrote:No, don't folllow BMP's inability to read. There was never a Dwight comparison. He's the only one who read the OP and came away with that silly notion.


I retorted to your statement with my own stating that I think DSJ has a higher ceiling than Isaacs. I am sorry I didn't mention "Potential" Dwight. Because, everybody makes absurd statements like that around here. I was just singled out with personal attacks.

Instead of attacking me, try debating me for a change.

New Age Center - The Magic have always established themselves around an elite Center to propel them to the Finals (Shaq/Dwight). The next time this happens, it could be around a new age center in the mold of Jonathan Isaac.

BMP, you're one of my favorite posters and I like your style.

So in order to make this more clear for you, I will not use the name Dwight or Shaq like I did in my OP.

Here goes...

I think that Isaac will at the very least be a part time Center in the NBA in small ball line ups. As the NBA continues to see an increase in this trend, perhaps Isaac will follow the footsteps of previous Magic big men who have helped to lead their teams to the Finals.


Sorry, I wasn't targeting you. I just wanted to debate the ceiling and floor of both players. But, people took my words the wrong way without reading where I said "I think there is a chance." Then, it snowballed from there.
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Re: The case for Jonathan Isaac 

Post#131 » by Skin » Fri Jun 2, 2017 7:02 pm

Watching Game 1 of the Finals made me want Isaac even MORE. The lack of perimeter and interior defense on the Cavs part was simply atrocious. They had nobody to stop penetration in the lane and things just spiraled out of control.

Found some good articles today that I'll share some cool excerpts from.

https://sports.vice.com/en_us/article/jonathan-isaac-is-a-safe-nba-draft-prospect-with-upside

Isaac is already a very strong defender, and in ways that are increasingly valuable. With continued physical growth and improvement, he could become so much more.

No draftee is bust-proof. But Isaac's particular defensive abilities should translate to the league at a high level. Today's NBA is dominated by quick guards and offenses built around high ball screens, which means defenses are looking for long, mobile bigs who can protect the rim without being liabilities in space.

Consider Milwaukee. The Bucks are able to deploy Giannis Antetokounmpo—and all of his his ridiculously fluid athletic ability and outrageous 7-foot-4 wingspan—at power forward. Next to him is 7-foot rookie center Thon Maker. Physically speaking, the Greek Freak is one of a kind. But Maker long, athletic, and agile as well, so much so that he has been able to make a NBA impact far earlier than many expected, even though he's the first high school player to jump directly to the league since the One-And-Done era began.

Together, the duo is able to keep opponents out of the paint. And when you do that, you have a very good chance of making opposing offenses inefficient. In five playoff games against Toronto—which finished sixth in the NBA in offensive efficiency this season—the Bucks have a defensive rating of 100.1, the second-best mark in the postseason.

NBA talent evaluators have a tough time scouting and projecting just how well big man prospects can defend in space. Due in part to the college game's shorter three-point line and the schemes campus coaches tend to use, most college bigs aren't consistently put on islands against quick guards. Isaac is an exception. Florida State state coach Leonard Hamilton used a switch-heavy defensive scheme that was similar to what many league teams run, and in many ways, Isaac's mobility and instincts were the reason the Seminoles could do so.

In all of college basketball last season, I'm not sure there was a defender who saw such a wide variety of matchups. Against Miami, Isaac often checked uber-athletic guard Bruce Brown or long, 3-and-D wing Davon Reed; against Duke, he went against fellow NBA Draft Lottery prospect and gifted shot creator Jayson Tatum; against Notre Dame, he faced off with physical, undersized center Bonzie Colson.

Isaac took all of those players out of their comfort zones. The key was his footwork. On the ball, Isaac is capable of sliding with guards in isolation toward the basket, either cutting off penetration, forcing a pass, or contesting a shot. After contesting, he's terrific at sealing off his man and grabbing rebounds himself, as illustrated by his 25 percent defensive rebounding rate. In pick-and-roll coverage, Isaac uses his quickness to show on guards in order to cut cut them off before recovering onto rollers.

Isaac's length also comes in handy on help defense away from the basket, where he has shown the ability to dig on ball-handlers and show a double, then get back to his man to contest. He has disruptive hands and good hand-eye coordination, which helps him force turnovers. He's quick enough to strip ball-handlers in isolation, and can get get into passing lanes to create transition opportunities—in fact, he was the tallest freshman in the country to post a steal rate of at least 2.4 percent. Roaming defenders have extreme value in today's NBA, and Isaac fits the bill.


Of course, playing mobile defensive bigs isn't nearly as effective if they can't provide some rim protection, too. Isaac excels there: [b]his 6.2 block rate finished in the top 100 of all qualified college basketball players, and he showed well on lane-to-lane weak side rotation as a help defender[/b]. He'll need to put on much more upper body strength to be an effective primary rim protector at the NBA level, but his timing already is impeccable, and whoever taught him about defensive verticality did a good job.

Statistically, Isaac was a difference-maker at Florida State, and the company he kept bodes well for his future. He was one of only five high major defenders since 2009-10 to post a 25 percent defensive rebounding rate, six percent block rate, and 2.4 percent steal rate. The other four? Anthony Davis, who has twice made the NBA's All-Defensive team; Andre Roberson, who is likely to make the same squad this season; Dewayne Dedmon, who saw San Antonio's defensive rating drop from 102.7 to 97.5 when he was on the floor; and Aaric Murray, who as a college player was dismissed from two schools in a three-year period and never saw his professional career get off the ground for reasons outside of basketball.
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Re: The case for Jonathan Isaac 

Post#132 » by tiderulz » Fri Jun 2, 2017 7:37 pm

Skin wrote:Watching Game 1 of the Finals made me want Isaac even MORE. The lack of perimeter and interior defense on the Cavs part was simply atrocious. They had nobody to stop penetration in the lane and things just spiraled out of control.

Found some good articles today that I'll share some cool excerpts from.

https://sports.vice.com/en_us/article/jonathan-isaac-is-a-safe-nba-draft-prospect-with-upside

Isaac is already a very strong defender, and in ways that are increasingly valuable. With continued physical growth and improvement, he could become so much more.

No draftee is bust-proof. But Isaac's particular defensive abilities should translate to the league at a high level. Today's NBA is dominated by quick guards and offenses built around high ball screens, which means defenses are looking for long, mobile bigs who can protect the rim without being liabilities in space.

Consider Milwaukee. The Bucks are able to deploy Giannis Antetokounmpo—and all of his his ridiculously fluid athletic ability and outrageous 7-foot-4 wingspan—at power forward. Next to him is 7-foot rookie center Thon Maker. Physically speaking, the Greek Freak is one of a kind. But Maker long, athletic, and agile as well, so much so that he has been able to make a NBA impact far earlier than many expected, even though he's the first high school player to jump directly to the league since the One-And-Done era began.

Together, the duo is able to keep opponents out of the paint. And when you do that, you have a very good chance of making opposing offenses inefficient. In five playoff games against Toronto—which finished sixth in the NBA in offensive efficiency this season—the Bucks have a defensive rating of 100.1, the second-best mark in the postseason.

NBA talent evaluators have a tough time scouting and projecting just how well big man prospects can defend in space. Due in part to the college game's shorter three-point line and the schemes campus coaches tend to use, most college bigs aren't consistently put on islands against quick guards. Isaac is an exception. Florida State state coach Leonard Hamilton used a switch-heavy defensive scheme that was similar to what many league teams run, and in many ways, Isaac's mobility and instincts were the reason the Seminoles could do so.

In all of college basketball last season, I'm not sure there was a defender who saw such a wide variety of matchups. Against Miami, Isaac often checked uber-athletic guard Bruce Brown or long, 3-and-D wing Davon Reed; against Duke, he went against fellow NBA Draft Lottery prospect and gifted shot creator Jayson Tatum; against Notre Dame, he faced off with physical, undersized center Bonzie Colson.

Isaac took all of those players out of their comfort zones. The key was his footwork. On the ball, Isaac is capable of sliding with guards in isolation toward the basket, either cutting off penetration, forcing a pass, or contesting a shot. After contesting, he's terrific at sealing off his man and grabbing rebounds himself, as illustrated by his 25 percent defensive rebounding rate. In pick-and-roll coverage, Isaac uses his quickness to show on guards in order to cut cut them off before recovering onto rollers.

Isaac's length also comes in handy on help defense away from the basket, where he has shown the ability to dig on ball-handlers and show a double, then get back to his man to contest. He has disruptive hands and good hand-eye coordination, which helps him force turnovers. He's quick enough to strip ball-handlers in isolation, and can get get into passing lanes to create transition opportunities—in fact, he was the tallest freshman in the country to post a steal rate of at least 2.4 percent. Roaming defenders have extreme value in today's NBA, and Isaac fits the bill.


Of course, playing mobile defensive bigs isn't nearly as effective if they can't provide some rim protection, too. Isaac excels there: [b]his 6.2 block rate finished in the top 100 of all qualified college basketball players, and he showed well on lane-to-lane weak side rotation as a help defender[/b]. He'll need to put on much more upper body strength to be an effective primary rim protector at the NBA level, but his timing already is impeccable, and whoever taught him about defensive verticality did a good job.

Statistically, Isaac was a difference-maker at Florida State, and the company he kept bodes well for his future. He was one of only five high major defenders since 2009-10 to post a 25 percent defensive rebounding rate, six percent block rate, and 2.4 percent steal rate. The other four? Anthony Davis, who has twice made the NBA's All-Defensive team; Andre Roberson, who is likely to make the same squad this season; Dewayne Dedmon, who saw San Antonio's defensive rating drop from 102.7 to 97.5 when he was on the floor; and Aaric Murray, who as a college player was dismissed from two schools in a three-year period and never saw his professional career get off the ground for reasons outside of basketball.


ok, those player comparisons that he "played against" are pretty bad. Calling out Bruce Brown, freshman PG that only average 11 ppg. Calling a 6'5 Bonzie Colson a center. Tatum, who avg'd 16 ppg, put up 21 and 15 in the 2 games against FSU. Reed put up 15 ppg in season and put up 11 and then 22 pts vs FSU.
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Re: The case for Jonathan Isaac 

Post#133 » by Skin » Fri Jun 2, 2017 7:49 pm

tiderulz wrote:ok, those player comparisons that he "played against" are pretty bad. Calling out Bruce Brown, freshman PG that only average 11 ppg. Calling a 6'5 Bonzie Colson a center. Tatum, who avg'd 16 ppg, put up 21 and 15 in the 2 games against FSU. Reed put up 15 ppg in season and put up 11 and then 22 pts vs FSU.

I agree, but I also don't think that was a main take away from it all.

My concerns on Isaac are none defensively. It all has to do with... can he develop his raw offensive tools into consistent offensive production.
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Re: The case for Jonathan Isaac 

Post#134 » by BadMofoPimp » Fri Jun 2, 2017 7:51 pm

Skin wrote:Watching Game 1 of the Finals made me want Isaac even MORE. The lack of perimeter and interior defense on the Cavs part was simply atrocious. They had nobody to stop penetration in the lane and things just spiraled out of control.

Found some good articles today that I'll share some cool excerpts from.

https://sports.vice.com/en_us/article/jonathan-isaac-is-a-safe-nba-draft-prospect-with-upside

Isaac is already a very strong defender, and in ways that are increasingly valuable. With continued physical growth and improvement, he could become so much more.

No draftee is bust-proof. But Isaac's particular defensive abilities should translate to the league at a high level. Today's NBA is dominated by quick guards and offenses built around high ball screens, which means defenses are looking for long, mobile bigs who can protect the rim without being liabilities in space.

Consider Milwaukee. The Bucks are able to deploy Giannis Antetokounmpo—and all of his his ridiculously fluid athletic ability and outrageous 7-foot-4 wingspan—at power forward. Next to him is 7-foot rookie center Thon Maker. Physically speaking, the Greek Freak is one of a kind. But Maker long, athletic, and agile as well, so much so that he has been able to make a NBA impact far earlier than many expected, even though he's the first high school player to jump directly to the league since the One-And-Done era began.

Together, the duo is able to keep opponents out of the paint. And when you do that, you have a very good chance of making opposing offenses inefficient. In five playoff games against Toronto—which finished sixth in the NBA in offensive efficiency this season—the Bucks have a defensive rating of 100.1, the second-best mark in the postseason.

NBA talent evaluators have a tough time scouting and projecting just how well big man prospects can defend in space. Due in part to the college game's shorter three-point line and the schemes campus coaches tend to use, most college bigs aren't consistently put on islands against quick guards. Isaac is an exception. Florida State state coach Leonard Hamilton used a switch-heavy defensive scheme that was similar to what many league teams run, and in many ways, Isaac's mobility and instincts were the reason the Seminoles could do so.

In all of college basketball last season, I'm not sure there was a defender who saw such a wide variety of matchups. Against Miami, Isaac often checked uber-athletic guard Bruce Brown or long, 3-and-D wing Davon Reed; against Duke, he went against fellow NBA Draft Lottery prospect and gifted shot creator Jayson Tatum; against Notre Dame, he faced off with physical, undersized center Bonzie Colson.

Isaac took all of those players out of their comfort zones. The key was his footwork. On the ball, Isaac is capable of sliding with guards in isolation toward the basket, either cutting off penetration, forcing a pass, or contesting a shot. After contesting, he's terrific at sealing off his man and grabbing rebounds himself, as illustrated by his 25 percent defensive rebounding rate. In pick-and-roll coverage, Isaac uses his quickness to show on guards in order to cut cut them off before recovering onto rollers.

Isaac's length also comes in handy on help defense away from the basket, where he has shown the ability to dig on ball-handlers and show a double, then get back to his man to contest. He has disruptive hands and good hand-eye coordination, which helps him force turnovers. He's quick enough to strip ball-handlers in isolation, and can get get into passing lanes to create transition opportunities—in fact, he was the tallest freshman in the country to post a steal rate of at least 2.4 percent. Roaming defenders have extreme value in today's NBA, and Isaac fits the bill.


Of course, playing mobile defensive bigs isn't nearly as effective if they can't provide some rim protection, too. Isaac excels there: [b]his 6.2 block rate finished in the top 100 of all qualified college basketball players, and he showed well on lane-to-lane weak side rotation as a help defender[/b]. He'll need to put on much more upper body strength to be an effective primary rim protector at the NBA level, but his timing already is impeccable, and whoever taught him about defensive verticality did a good job.

Statistically, Isaac was a difference-maker at Florida State, and the company he kept bodes well for his future. He was one of only five high major defenders since 2009-10 to post a 25 percent defensive rebounding rate, six percent block rate, and 2.4 percent steal rate. The other four? Anthony Davis, who has twice made the NBA's All-Defensive team; Andre Roberson, who is likely to make the same squad this season; Dewayne Dedmon, who saw San Antonio's defensive rating drop from 102.7 to 97.5 when he was on the floor; and Aaric Murray, who as a college player was dismissed from two schools in a three-year period and never saw his professional career get off the ground for reasons outside of basketball.


While I think Isaac is a tremendous athlete who could complement this team, I am concerned with his interior defense. He has problems not being backed down or holding people off the block. He doesn't seem to have the shooting range to be a NBA SF and gets bullied in the post. I don't think Isaac could of helped the Cavs against the attacking Durant. The question is, could Isaac be taught not to "shy away from contact" to play the 4 as he doesn't have the range nor handles in my opinion to play the SF or the strength for the Center position. Especially, since he had those issues against smaller collegiate players.

He struggles on the interior as a 4 man due to a lack of strength and toughness, and he can be pushed out of his spots pretty easily on offense ... For example, he lacks the core strength to get all the way to the rim against physical defenders and can get knocked off course, especially when he elevates ... Isaac has a tendency to shy away from contact and often will not explode all the way to the rim even when he has his man beat ... On the interior he struggles to hold his position when posting up and will settle for fall away jumpers rather than getting to the basket ... Though he has potential on defense, he allows himself to be screened easily and lacks the physicality to fight through screens ... He also lacks the strength to guard the post with consistency, which limits his ability to play the four regularly ... His lack of strength also affects him on the glass, where he can get bullied often and pushed out of position ... He also does not always box out and relies too much on his length to track down misses .


Has a slight frame. Shows long term potential to defend multiple positions but struggles keeping position defending the post, causing him to pick up fouls. Struggles with physical play


http://www.nbadraft.net/players/jonathan-isaac
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Re: The case for Jonathan Isaac 

Post#135 » by Viper1500 » Fri Jun 2, 2017 8:19 pm

Nice post Skin

I'm still on the Dennis Smith bandwagon but you make some solid points. Overall, I am not a believer in Issac at the 3. He comes across as a 4 to me. Saying that, I guess Gordon/Issac could interchange between offense/defense. I'd still prefer a floor general though, which Dennis Smith should be.
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Re: The case for Jonathan Isaac 

Post#136 » by Skin » Fri Jun 2, 2017 8:28 pm

If we want to talk about his bads, I think this article helps because it doesn't shy away from mentioning his concerns as a wing, but it does stress the value of him being a big and having wing type skills and what that means. Kinda long, but worth the read, imo.

Jonathan Isaac is the best big man in this draft class
https://medium.com/@jzmazlish/jonathan-isaac-is-the-best-big-man-in-this-draft-class-4a92c8f53f84
Good videos here too
-------

Isaac is typically thought of as a relatively high-floor low-upside 3&D prospect. It is easy to fall into this trap when looking at Isaac. He has good defensive tools and production, some shooting success, and doesn’t offer too much else on the offensive end. As is often the case, draft writer Kaiser Lindeman forced me to look at Isaac in a different light. A closer evaluation of his film and statistical profile revealed that he has a unique combination of strengths, and his upside is being undersold.

General perception of Isaac as a “wing” is in many ways what led to him being underrated. Brandon Ingram’s existence is arguably another reason. Florida State played Isaac as a power forward all year, much like Ingram at Duke last year. Both are gangly and fluid athletes who seem like they should be similarly good on the defensive end. A quick look at their respective defensive production should at least cause us to raise our eyebrows at such an assumption.

Image

The purpose of this chart is not to illustrate that Ingram was a bad defender. He was a fine defensive prospect for a wing (though probably a bit overrated). What should become apparent is just how strong Isaac’s defensive production is. When you consider his rebounding and shot blocking he doesn’t look like a good wing defensive player, he looks like a good *big man*. If Isaac can provide the perimeter versatility of a wing while doing traditional power forward things at a high-level, it completely changes the calculus on his defensive upside.

A look at Isaac’s film from this year more than backs up his numbers. Unlike many wings who rack up solid block numbers, Isaac doesn’t fly in from the weak side to swat guys shots. K.J. McDaniels, Aaron Gordon, and Miles Bridges are all examples of this type of back-side rim protection. What Isaac brings to the table is far more valuable. He instinctually rotates to the rim in help situations and uses verticality well to bother shots. Being 6'10 with a 7'1 wingspan, he is able to alter a lot of shots at the rim that he doesn’t get credited with a block on.

In on-ball situations, Isaac is able to bother shots that are typically converted by the offensive player. Isaac uses that same length and positioning to rebound at an excellent rate for a power forward, or even a center. When you consider team context at Florida State, Isaac’s numbers only become more impressive. They play three guys who are all more “traditional” big-men than Isaac heavy minutes (Michael Ojo, Koumandji, and Jarquez Smith), and Ojo and Koumandji are 7+ foot behemoths who can rebound and block shots at a high level. Theoretically, on an NCAA team with average interior defenders Isaac’s numbers would be even more outlier good.

The biggest flaw in Isaac’s interior defensive profile is his skinniness. There have been really successful skinny big man defenders (cough Nerlens Noel cough), but Isaac’s frame is still an issue. At this stage, he is simply not equipped to guard the NBA’s true power players. The good news is all that really does is prevent him from playing Center, because aside from Blake Griffin, Paul Millsap, and maybe a few others, there aren’t many offensively dominant “power” 4’s.

If anything, since Isaac is a quick-leaper with length and timing he has real upside to eventually play the 5. According to his DraftExpress measurements, he’s already gained 20 pounds in the past two years. If he can add another 20 and get himself to be about 225 it is easy to see him spending some time at the 5.

The reason you would want to play Isaac at the 5 is the devastating versatility it could unlock in a defense. In addition to being good at “big-man things,” Isaac is also a talented perimeter defender.

His short area quickness and reactive ability is about as good as I’ve ever seen in someone his size. Watch his footwork here as he completely cuts off Jayson Tatum’s penetration.

https://streamable.com/lg338

There aren’t many 6'10 guys in the league who can move their feet like that. Isaac’s package of lateral quicks and insane length allows him to make some pretty impressive on-ball defensive plays. Here he is destroying another NBA wing prospect (Justin Jackson) in Kawhi-esque fashion.

https://streamable.com/yqyur

That short area quickness also allows Isaac to get around screens exceptionally well for a player of his stature. Now, Isaac is by no means a perfect defensive prospect. He gets beat off-the-dribble a decent amount. Importantly though, the times he gets beat are almost always due to him gambling for a steal, him not having the strength to cut a guy off, or not having the lateral speed to keep up with someone over distance.

That last quality, his speed over long distances, is odd for someone his frame. Usually guys who are long like him can move laterally to keep up with guys but struggle to respond to guys in short areas. Isaac is the opposite. Thankfully, containing guys in small areas is much more relevant in the NBA because help defense prevents guys from being stretched out too much.

Off-the-ball, Isaac does have issues with consistency. He seems to drift at times, and there are questions about his competitiveness. Since he also displays moments of high-instinct rotation and his bottom-line impact is so good these concerns aren’t giant, but are worth thinking about.

With his flaws in mind, I don’t see Isaac as a truly game-changing Kawhi/Draymond level defender. However, given his versatility as a plus perimeter and interior defender Isaac profiles as both a high-floor and high-upside defensive prospect.

In all, Isaac is a pretty high-floor defensive prospect regardless of situation. If a coach does utilize him correctly and plays him at the 4 and 5 he has legitimate All-NBA defensive upside. I don’t think most view Isaac’s defense this way, but I think it’s time to start asking people why not.

When you consider Isaac a true-4 and possible 5 defensively, his offensive profile also becomes all that more enticing. Seriously, why does Lauri Markkanen get the (offensive) benefit of being called a stretch 4/5, while Isaac, who also stretches the floor and is better at actual big man defensive things, get labeled a wing?

Isaac is not a good offensive prospect for a wing. His shot is a real question mark, and he’s not great at attacking off-the-dribble or reading the floor. Those weaknesses look completely different when you consider him as a true 4/5, but still should be evaluated.

Even as a 4/5 a bad shooting outcome would tank his value as a player. Predicting shooting is pretty much impossible, but there are reasons to believe in Isaac’s shot. Shooting 78% from the free throw line is a big deal.His comfort and frequency shooting off-the-dribble pull-ups is also a good sign. He’s probably going to be a solid 35–38% shooter from the NBA three.

He’s an unselfish ball-mover, he’s got a good first step, and as he adds strength he should be very capable of attacking off one or two-dribbles and finishing at the rim. The fact that he can also pull-up fluidly in the mid-range is a plus, and prevents defenses from playing him like a non-threat.

Isaac has also shown flashes of being able to run side pick-and-roll in a pinch. He can be a bit robotic with his reads at times, which caps his upside as a creator, but he is perfectly able to execute weak-side action for an NBA team.

It is crucial to evaluating Isaac’s offense to understand that he will (hopefully) be playing power forward or center. As a wing, Isaac would profile as a below-average, but not terrible, offensive prospect. As a big guy, if his shot doesn’t fail him he is a versatile floor spacer and finisher who can attack closeouts and keep the offense moving.

Isaac is being discussed as if he were a good wing defender with the capability of sliding down a position, much like Harrison Barnes. Instead, he should be thought of as a good interior defender with the versatility to guard on the wing. Such a designation completely changes the way he’s viewed on both ends of the floor.

On defense, Isaac has the potential to be an all-NBA level defender at the power forward due to his versatility. He provides much more interior defense than a small-ball wing, and is as versatile a perimeter defender as almost any big in today’s NBA.

On offense, Isaac is not a great prospect as a wing, but when thought of as an athletic stretch 4 who can shoot some, attack off the bounce, and finish around the rim he looks a lot more appealing. He will never be a star on this end but he could easily be a +1 or +2 guy with a good shooting outcome.

If Isaac does add the strength to play the 5 near full-time his upside only magnifies. At the 5, he would be a below average interior defender but an exceptional perimeter one, and would also gain even more value on the offensive end. Given his status as a late-grower and the weight he’s added this possibility is not out of the question.

My three reasons for skepticism of my own evaluation of Isaac are 1) What if he’s played like a wing 2) What if his shot fails and 3) Am I underrating how poor his BBIQ/on-court “fire” is. If he goes to a bad organization his future looks a lot different, he needs the right situation. Having a coach play him at the 4 is not all that difficult though, so it doesn’t affect my pre-draft ranking of him. His shot is by far the biggest variable in his future, but the same could be said of every prospect. I’m buying his shot being good enough to make him useful. Again, I’ve seen enough indicators of good IQ/competitiveness that I’m buying, but he has had some games (like their elimination game against Xavier) where he looked terrible in this respect.

Worries aside, I am super high on Jonathan Isaac. I think he’s got real +2 O/+3 D upside if played at the 4, and upside even beyond that if he can play the 5. He’s also not purely an upside pick because there are a lot of intermediate scenarios where he could be a useful ~+0.5/+1.5 starting power forward. The flexibility he offers in line-up construction makes him easy to envision on a championship contender. I see a lot of reasons to buy Jonathan Isaac, and since I’m not super high on any of the other wings in this class (more to come on this soon) — he is the #1 wing (and big) in this class for me, and my #3 prospect behind Ball and Fultz.
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Re: The case for Jonathan Isaac 

Post#137 » by Xatticus » Fri Jun 2, 2017 8:36 pm

tiderulz wrote:ok, those player comparisons that he "played against" are pretty bad. Calling out Bruce Brown, freshman PG that only average 11 ppg. Calling a 6'5 Bonzie Colson a center. Tatum, who avg'd 16 ppg, put up 21 and 15 in the 2 games against FSU. Reed put up 15 ppg in season and put up 11 and then 22 pts vs FSU.


I think the entire point of that was to emphasize his defensive versatility and show the various types of players he matched up against defensively.
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Re: The case for Jonathan Isaac 

Post#138 » by Xatticus » Fri Jun 2, 2017 8:45 pm

BadMofoPimp wrote:While I think Isaac is a tremendous athlete who could complement this team, I am concerned with his interior defense. He has problems not being backed down or holding people off the block. He doesn't seem to have the shooting range to be a NBA SF and gets bullied in the post. I don't think Isaac could of helped the Cavs against the attacking Durant. The question is, could Isaac be taught not to "shy away from contact" to play the 4 as he doesn't have the range nor handles in my opinion to play the SF or the strength for the Center position. Especially, since he had those issues against smaller collegiate players.


He's not soft though. It's an important distinction. He gets physical; even against guys that are bigger than he is. It's just a strength issue. I believe a lot of his flaws will be corrected as he matures physically; at both ends of the floor.
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Re: The case for Jonathan Isaac 

Post#139 » by VFX » Sat Jun 3, 2017 4:41 am

Skin wrote:If we want to talk about his bads, I think this article helps because it doesn't shy away from mentioning his concerns as a wing, but it does stress the value of him being a big and having wing type skills and what that means. Kinda long, but worth the read, imo.

Jonathan Isaac is the best big man in this draft class
https://medium.com/@jzmazlish/jonathan-isaac-is-the-best-big-man-in-this-draft-class-4a92c8f53f84
Good videos here too
-------

Isaac is typically thought of as a relatively high-floor low-upside 3&D prospect. It is easy to fall into this trap when looking at Isaac. He has good defensive tools and production, some shooting success, and doesn’t offer too much else on the offensive end. As is often the case, draft writer Kaiser Lindeman forced me to look at Isaac in a different light. A closer evaluation of his film and statistical profile revealed that he has a unique combination of strengths, and his upside is being undersold.

General perception of Isaac as a “wing” is in many ways what led to him being underrated. Brandon Ingram’s existence is arguably another reason. Florida State played Isaac as a power forward all year, much like Ingram at Duke last year. Both are gangly and fluid athletes who seem like they should be similarly good on the defensive end. A quick look at their respective defensive production should at least cause us to raise our eyebrows at such an assumption.

Image

The purpose of this chart is not to illustrate that Ingram was a bad defender. He was a fine defensive prospect for a wing (though probably a bit overrated). What should become apparent is just how strong Isaac’s defensive production is. When you consider his rebounding and shot blocking he doesn’t look like a good wing defensive player, he looks like a good *big man*. If Isaac can provide the perimeter versatility of a wing while doing traditional power forward things at a high-level, it completely changes the calculus on his defensive upside.

A look at Isaac’s film from this year more than backs up his numbers. Unlike many wings who rack up solid block numbers, Isaac doesn’t fly in from the weak side to swat guys shots. K.J. McDaniels, Aaron Gordon, and Miles Bridges are all examples of this type of back-side rim protection. What Isaac brings to the table is far more valuable. He instinctually rotates to the rim in help situations and uses verticality well to bother shots. Being 6'10 with a 7'1 wingspan, he is able to alter a lot of shots at the rim that he doesn’t get credited with a block on.

In on-ball situations, Isaac is able to bother shots that are typically converted by the offensive player. Isaac uses that same length and positioning to rebound at an excellent rate for a power forward, or even a center. When you consider team context at Florida State, Isaac’s numbers only become more impressive. They play three guys who are all more “traditional” big-men than Isaac heavy minutes (Michael Ojo, Koumandji, and Jarquez Smith), and Ojo and Koumandji are 7+ foot behemoths who can rebound and block shots at a high level. Theoretically, on an NCAA team with average interior defenders Isaac’s numbers would be even more outlier good.

The biggest flaw in Isaac’s interior defensive profile is his skinniness. There have been really successful skinny big man defenders (cough Nerlens Noel cough), but Isaac’s frame is still an issue. At this stage, he is simply not equipped to guard the NBA’s true power players. The good news is all that really does is prevent him from playing Center, because aside from Blake Griffin, Paul Millsap, and maybe a few others, there aren’t many offensively dominant “power” 4’s.

If anything, since Isaac is a quick-leaper with length and timing he has real upside to eventually play the 5. According to his DraftExpress measurements, he’s already gained 20 pounds in the past two years. If he can add another 20 and get himself to be about 225 it is easy to see him spending some time at the 5.

The reason you would want to play Isaac at the 5 is the devastating versatility it could unlock in a defense. In addition to being good at “big-man things,” Isaac is also a talented perimeter defender.

His short area quickness and reactive ability is about as good as I’ve ever seen in someone his size. Watch his footwork here as he completely cuts off Jayson Tatum’s penetration.

https://streamable.com/lg338

There aren’t many 6'10 guys in the league who can move their feet like that. Isaac’s package of lateral quicks and insane length allows him to make some pretty impressive on-ball defensive plays. Here he is destroying another NBA wing prospect (Justin Jackson) in Kawhi-esque fashion.

https://streamable.com/yqyur

That short area quickness also allows Isaac to get around screens exceptionally well for a player of his stature. Now, Isaac is by no means a perfect defensive prospect. He gets beat off-the-dribble a decent amount. Importantly though, the times he gets beat are almost always due to him gambling for a steal, him not having the strength to cut a guy off, or not having the lateral speed to keep up with someone over distance.

That last quality, his speed over long distances, is odd for someone his frame. Usually guys who are long like him can move laterally to keep up with guys but struggle to respond to guys in short areas. Isaac is the opposite. Thankfully, containing guys in small areas is much more relevant in the NBA because help defense prevents guys from being stretched out too much.

Off-the-ball, Isaac does have issues with consistency. He seems to drift at times, and there are questions about his competitiveness. Since he also displays moments of high-instinct rotation and his bottom-line impact is so good these concerns aren’t giant, but are worth thinking about.

With his flaws in mind, I don’t see Isaac as a truly game-changing Kawhi/Draymond level defender. However, given his versatility as a plus perimeter and interior defender Isaac profiles as both a high-floor and high-upside defensive prospect.

In all, Isaac is a pretty high-floor defensive prospect regardless of situation. If a coach does utilize him correctly and plays him at the 4 and 5 he has legitimate All-NBA defensive upside. I don’t think most view Isaac’s defense this way, but I think it’s time to start asking people why not.

When you consider Isaac a true-4 and possible 5 defensively, his offensive profile also becomes all that more enticing. Seriously, why does Lauri Markkanen get the (offensive) benefit of being called a stretch 4/5, while Isaac, who also stretches the floor and is better at actual big man defensive things, get labeled a wing?

Isaac is not a good offensive prospect for a wing. His shot is a real question mark, and he’s not great at attacking off-the-dribble or reading the floor. Those weaknesses look completely different when you consider him as a true 4/5, but still should be evaluated.

Even as a 4/5 a bad shooting outcome would tank his value as a player. Predicting shooting is pretty much impossible, but there are reasons to believe in Isaac’s shot. Shooting 78% from the free throw line is a big deal.His comfort and frequency shooting off-the-dribble pull-ups is also a good sign. He’s probably going to be a solid 35–38% shooter from the NBA three.

He’s an unselfish ball-mover, he’s got a good first step, and as he adds strength he should be very capable of attacking off one or two-dribbles and finishing at the rim. The fact that he can also pull-up fluidly in the mid-range is a plus, and prevents defenses from playing him like a non-threat.

Isaac has also shown flashes of being able to run side pick-and-roll in a pinch. He can be a bit robotic with his reads at times, which caps his upside as a creator, but he is perfectly able to execute weak-side action for an NBA team.

It is crucial to evaluating Isaac’s offense to understand that he will (hopefully) be playing power forward or center. As a wing, Isaac would profile as a below-average, but not terrible, offensive prospect. As a big guy, if his shot doesn’t fail him he is a versatile floor spacer and finisher who can attack closeouts and keep the offense moving.

Isaac is being discussed as if he were a good wing defender with the capability of sliding down a position, much like Harrison Barnes. Instead, he should be thought of as a good interior defender with the versatility to guard on the wing. Such a designation completely changes the way he’s viewed on both ends of the floor.

On defense, Isaac has the potential to be an all-NBA level defender at the power forward due to his versatility. He provides much more interior defense than a small-ball wing, and is as versatile a perimeter defender as almost any big in today’s NBA.

On offense, Isaac is not a great prospect as a wing, but when thought of as an athletic stretch 4 who can shoot some, attack off the bounce, and finish around the rim he looks a lot more appealing. He will never be a star on this end but he could easily be a +1 or +2 guy with a good shooting outcome.

If Isaac does add the strength to play the 5 near full-time his upside only magnifies. At the 5, he would be a below average interior defender but an exceptional perimeter one, and would also gain even more value on the offensive end. Given his status as a late-grower and the weight he’s added this possibility is not out of the question.

My three reasons for skepticism of my own evaluation of Isaac are 1) What if he’s played like a wing 2) What if his shot fails and 3) Am I underrating how poor his BBIQ/on-court “fire” is. If he goes to a bad organization his future looks a lot different, he needs the right situation. Having a coach play him at the 4 is not all that difficult though, so it doesn’t affect my pre-draft ranking of him. His shot is by far the biggest variable in his future, but the same could be said of every prospect. I’m buying his shot being good enough to make him useful. Again, I’ve seen enough indicators of good IQ/competitiveness that I’m buying, but he has had some games (like their elimination game against Xavier) where he looked terrible in this respect.

Worries aside, I am super high on Jonathan Isaac. I think he’s got real +2 O/+3 D upside if played at the 4, and upside even beyond that if he can play the 5. He’s also not purely an upside pick because there are a lot of intermediate scenarios where he could be a useful ~+0.5/+1.5 starting power forward. The flexibility he offers in line-up construction makes him easy to envision on a championship contender. I see a lot of reasons to buy Jonathan Isaac, and since I’m not super high on any of the other wings in this class (more to come on this soon) — he is the #1 wing (and big) in this class for me, and my #3 prospect behind Ball and Fultz.


The real question is that if Isaac is going to be considered a future big, wouldn't that technically be wasting a #6 pick on him if we are banking purely on potential.Every player in the skinny tweener category somehow played point guard at some point. I don't buy it. Unless he turns out to be Jokic or Towns I'm all for avoiding the PF/C position in the draft if it isn't a "sure thing". Not only do we have a PF (AG) , but less teams are running through their bigs. Is it a coincidence the top picks are all wings and guards? Im guessing no. Isaac is a good pick at 6, but if DSJr is on the table or either of Tatum or Jackson consider Isaac off the table for me.
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Re: The case for Jonathan Isaac 

Post#140 » by pepe1991 » Sat Jun 3, 2017 7:01 am

So if Isaac is future big ( and i already had debate with PennytoShaq lot of times in past ) doesn't that mean that he will spend most of the time playing PF , just like Gordon? Why use a pick to double it down on only position we have in place?
You can't trow Isaac and his below 100 kg at center any time soon and as Skin above copy pasted- most of his stats point out that he is big man, not wing prospect.
And, as MagicMatic above pointed out, even if he has star potential ( and that's still in the air,just like with every other prospect) how valuable is that really in league where not a single contender plays through bigs?
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