The Guards

[pepe1991]

Bamba was bust, and it happends. Issue is that they kept him for 4 years, resigned bidding against nobody, than traded him for nothing.
Literally runned his value to zero, still refused to let it go, and finally gave up. Guy was out of Lakers rotation after 2 practices.

[VFX]

I'm emerging from my lurking to object to the basic planning strategy being advocated by many smart and informed people in this thread.

The argument that we should be making definitive plans based on our current expectations for Black or any #6 pick is deeply flawed IMO.

A quick google on the history of the #6 pick took me to this list:

2019 Jarrett Culver, Texas Tech – Minnesota Timberwolves
2018 Mohamed Bamba, Texas – Orlando Magic
2017 Jonathan Isaac, Florida State – Orlando Magic
2016 Buddy Hield, Oklahoma – New Orleans Pelicans
2015 Willie Cauley-Stein, Kentucky – Sacramento Kings
2014 Marcus Smart, Oklahoma St. – Boston Celtics
2013 Nerlens Noel, Kentucky – New Orleans Pelicans
2012 Damian Lillard, Weber State – Portland Trail Blazers
2011 Jan Vesely, Czech Republic – Washington Wizards
2010 Ekpe Udoh, Baylor – Golden State Warriors
2009 Johnny Flynn, Syracuse – Minnesota Timberwolves
2008 Danilo Gallinari, Italy – New York Knicks
2007 Yi Jianlian, China – Milwaukee Bucks
2006 Brandon Roy, Washington – Minnesota Timberwolves
2005 Martell Webster, Seattle Prep HS – Portland Trail Blazers
2004 Josh Childress, Stanford – Atlanta Hawks
2003 Chris Kaman, Central Michigan – L.A. Clippers
2002 Dajuan Wagner, Memphis – Cleveland Cavaliers
2001 Shane Battier, Duke – Memphis Grizzlies
2000 DerMarr Johnson, Cincinnati – Atlanta Hawks

Among the first 20 #6 picks of this century, about a third turned out to be not cut out for the NBA, and almost all of the ones that did stay int he league did not fill a role that was easily predicted when they were drafted. The suggestion that we should be making definitive plans -- trading established NBA players and assigning long-term starting roles -- based on such uncertain inputs seems like an obviously terrible idea.

Imagine if past similar Magic draft picks were joining this team now. How much sense would it make to get rid of WCJ for a rookie Bamba? How about taking away any current rotation player's playing time to try to develop Elfrid Payton, Jaryl Sasser, or Mario Hezonja? Knowing what we know now about those guys, what possible good could come from taking away even a marginal role player's minutes (say Cole, for instance) for one of those guys?

Say what you want about the development plans for those players, but the Paytons, Hezonjas, and Bambas of the world are just not NBA quality basketball players. Any plan made based on the expectation that they would fill a major role is obviously a deeply flawed plan.

I hope that Black and Howard fulfill their potential for us, but I certainly would not make definitive plans based on that expectation. The numbers tell us that it's more likely that they both fail than that one of the two becomes a legit starter in this league.

Any argument you have against an existing rotation player on this team can exist independently of the rookies about whom we know very little. I rate Fultz a little more than many on here and Suggs a little less, but those assessments can exist without coupling them to some long-term planning for a guy who has a decent chance of being a project or a bust (based on where he was picked, not anything specifically about Black).

Welcome back from lurking.

No offense, but what does the history of the #6 pick have to do with Orlando's roster situation? Whats the difference between that particular pick and any other bust taken in the top of the lottery? It frankly doesn't matter how much confidence anyone has in picks becoming players.

Cole Anthony has proven that he is absolutely capable of running point guard should Black be completely incapable (which I don't believe). The bottom line is that the FO didn't line up the contracts to meet with the planning of the roster in terms of the guard situation. They can't have it both ways. You cannot spend a #6 pick asset on a guy and ask him to play behind two other point guards for the foreseeable future. On top of that, you can't offer one of the guys in front of him a multi-year large deal and expect to retain the same value from that pick.

They have already made this decision with the draft. Doing some luke-warm non decision between the two paths will equal one or both negative results. By that I mean being stuck with a Fultz contract at 25-$30m and/or the Black pick not panning out with no true path. The only other third option would be to move Cole Anthony, which to me doesn't make much sense because he's cost controlled and will absolutely not be as expensive as Fultz.

This is the same thing they did with Bamba, but they didn't make any roster decisions after the fact. It turned into a completely botched draft because they went BPA with a project Center and had no plan in place when Vucevic obviously puts up numbers in a contract year. The latter scenario happened regardless and now the 2018 draft results in absolutely zero where it could have been a Porter/SGA/ etc asset. Had they thought about the pick making sense anywhere past the current season in front of them.

If the end result of Fultz year 6 season comes to "I need to get comfortable shooting in games", then I'm sorry but you aren't good enough to be handing over a large percentage of cap space to as a starting point guard. I do not need to see the future to know that IF Fultz is not moved prior to the season, or during, that he is a better option at point guard for next season. Thats not the argument.

[zaymon]

I'm emerging from my lurking to object to the basic planning strategy being advocated by many smart and informed people in this thread.

The argument that we should be making definitive plans based on our current expectations for Black or any #6 pick is deeply flawed IMO.

A quick google on the history of the #6 pick took me to this list:

2019 Jarrett Culver, Texas Tech – Minnesota Timberwolves
2018 Mohamed Bamba, Texas – Orlando Magic
2017 Jonathan Isaac, Florida State – Orlando Magic
2016 Buddy Hield, Oklahoma – New Orleans Pelicans
2015 Willie Cauley-Stein, Kentucky – Sacramento Kings
2014 Marcus Smart, Oklahoma St. – Boston Celtics
2013 Nerlens Noel, Kentucky – New Orleans Pelicans
2012 Damian Lillard, Weber State – Portland Trail Blazers
2011 Jan Vesely, Czech Republic – Washington Wizards
2010 Ekpe Udoh, Baylor – Golden State Warriors
2009 Johnny Flynn, Syracuse – Minnesota Timberwolves
2008 Danilo Gallinari, Italy – New York Knicks
2007 Yi Jianlian, China – Milwaukee Bucks
2006 Brandon Roy, Washington – Minnesota Timberwolves
2005 Martell Webster, Seattle Prep HS – Portland Trail Blazers
2004 Josh Childress, Stanford – Atlanta Hawks
2003 Chris Kaman, Central Michigan – L.A. Clippers
2002 Dajuan Wagner, Memphis – Cleveland Cavaliers
2001 Shane Battier, Duke – Memphis Grizzlies
2000 DerMarr Johnson, Cincinnati – Atlanta Hawks

Among the first 20 #6 picks of this century, about a third turned out to be not cut out for the NBA, and almost all of the ones that did stay int he league did not fill a role that was easily predicted when they were drafted. The suggestion that we should be making definitive plans -- trading established NBA players and assigning long-term starting roles -- based on such uncertain inputs seems like an obviously terrible idea.

Imagine if past similar Magic draft picks were joining this team now. How much sense would it make to get rid of WCJ for a rookie Bamba? How about taking away any current rotation player's playing time to try to develop Elfrid Payton, Jaryl Sasser, or Mario Hezonja? Knowing what we know now about those guys, what possible good could come from taking away even a marginal role player's minutes (say Cole, for instance) for one of those guys?

Say what you want about the development plans for those players, but the Paytons, Hezonjas, and Bambas of the world are just not NBA quality basketball players. Any plan made based on the expectation that they would fill a major role is obviously a deeply flawed plan.

I hope that Black and Howard fulfill their potential for us, but I certainly would not make definitive plans based on that expectation. The numbers tell us that it's more likely that they both fail than that one of the two becomes a legit starter in this league.

Any argument you have against an existing rotation player on this team can exist independently of the rookies about whom we know very little. I rate Fultz a little more than many on here and Suggs a little less, but those assessments can exist without coupling them to some long-term planning for a guy who has a decent chance of being a project or a bust (based on where he was picked, not anything specifically about Black).

Welcome back from lurking.

No offense, but what does the history of the #6 pick have to do with Orlando's roster situation? Whats the difference between that particular pick and any other bust taken in the top of the lottery? It frankly doesn't matter how much confidence anyone has in picks becoming players.

Cole Anthony has proven that he is absolutely capable of running point guard should Black be completely incapable (which I don't believe). The bottom line is that the FO didn't line up the contracts to meet with the planning of the roster in terms of the guard situation. They can't have it both ways. You cannot spend a #6 pick asset on a guy and ask him to play behind two other point guards for the foreseeable future. On top of that, you can't offer one of the guys in front of him a multi-year large deal and expect to retain the same value from that pick.

They have already made this decision with the draft. Doing some luke-warm non decision between the two paths will equal one or both negative results. By that I mean being stuck with a Fultz contract at 25-$30m and/or the Black pick not panning out with no true path. The only other third option would be to move Cole Anthony, which to me doesn't make much sense because he's cost controlled and will absolutely not be as expensive as Fultz.

This is the same thing they did with Bamba, but they didn't make any roster decisions after the fact. It turned into a completely botched draft because they went BPA with a project Center and had no plan in place when Vucevic obviously puts up numbers in a contract year. The latter scenario happened regardless and now the 2018 draft results in absolutely zero where it could have been a Porter/SGA/ etc asset. Had they thought about the pick making sense anywhere past the current season in front of them.

Bamba situation would turn out fine if he was not a bust. We got value from Vucevic and Bamba was ready to go. Problem is i dont think Fultz is half as good as Vucevic. We would have to add value to move him at 20-25M.
I dont think they picked the path yet or maybe they did but we dont know about it. We could still start Fultz for a year and Black would have to fight for minutes. It would not be a disaster. Problem is higher ceiling prospects like Suggs or Howard would got the Hampton treatment.

[VFX]

I'm emerging from my lurking to object to the basic planning strategy being advocated by many smart and informed people in this thread.

The argument that we should be making definitive plans based on our current expectations for Black or any #6 pick is deeply flawed IMO.

A quick google on the history of the #6 pick took me to this list:

2019 Jarrett Culver, Texas Tech – Minnesota Timberwolves
2018 Mohamed Bamba, Texas – Orlando Magic
2017 Jonathan Isaac, Florida State – Orlando Magic
2016 Buddy Hield, Oklahoma – New Orleans Pelicans
2015 Willie Cauley-Stein, Kentucky – Sacramento Kings
2014 Marcus Smart, Oklahoma St. – Boston Celtics
2013 Nerlens Noel, Kentucky – New Orleans Pelicans
2012 Damian Lillard, Weber State – Portland Trail Blazers
2011 Jan Vesely, Czech Republic – Washington Wizards
2010 Ekpe Udoh, Baylor – Golden State Warriors
2009 Johnny Flynn, Syracuse – Minnesota Timberwolves
2008 Danilo Gallinari, Italy – New York Knicks
2007 Yi Jianlian, China – Milwaukee Bucks
2006 Brandon Roy, Washington – Minnesota Timberwolves
2005 Martell Webster, Seattle Prep HS – Portland Trail Blazers
2004 Josh Childress, Stanford – Atlanta Hawks
2003 Chris Kaman, Central Michigan – L.A. Clippers
2002 Dajuan Wagner, Memphis – Cleveland Cavaliers
2001 Shane Battier, Duke – Memphis Grizzlies
2000 DerMarr Johnson, Cincinnati – Atlanta Hawks

Among the first 20 #6 picks of this century, about a third turned out to be not cut out for the NBA, and almost all of the ones that did stay int he league did not fill a role that was easily predicted when they were drafted. The suggestion that we should be making definitive plans -- trading established NBA players and assigning long-term starting roles -- based on such uncertain inputs seems like an obviously terrible idea.

Imagine if past similar Magic draft picks were joining this team now. How much sense would it make to get rid of WCJ for a rookie Bamba? How about taking away any current rotation player's playing time to try to develop Elfrid Payton, Jaryl Sasser, or Mario Hezonja? Knowing what we know now about those guys, what possible good could come from taking away even a marginal role player's minutes (say Cole, for instance) for one of those guys?

Say what you want about the development plans for those players, but the Paytons, Hezonjas, and Bambas of the world are just not NBA quality basketball players. Any plan made based on the expectation that they would fill a major role is obviously a deeply flawed plan.

I hope that Black and Howard fulfill their potential for us, but I certainly would not make definitive plans based on that expectation. The numbers tell us that it's more likely that they both fail than that one of the two becomes a legit starter in this league.

Any argument you have against an existing rotation player on this team can exist independently of the rookies about whom we know very little. I rate Fultz a little more than many on here and Suggs a little less, but those assessments can exist without coupling them to some long-term planning for a guy who has a decent chance of being a project or a bust (based on where he was picked, not anything specifically about Black).

Welcome back from lurking.

No offense, but what does the history of the #6 pick have to do with Orlando's roster situation? Whats the difference between that particular pick and any other bust taken in the top of the lottery? It frankly doesn't matter how much confidence anyone has in picks becoming players.

Cole Anthony has proven that he is absolutely capable of running point guard should Black be completely incapable (which I don't believe). The bottom line is that the FO didn't line up the contracts to meet with the planning of the roster in terms of the guard situation. They can't have it both ways. You cannot spend a #6 pick asset on a guy and ask him to play behind two other point guards for the foreseeable future. On top of that, you can't offer one of the guys in front of him a multi-year large deal and expect to retain the same value from that pick.

They have already made this decision with the draft. Doing some luke-warm non decision between the two paths will equal one or both negative results. By that I mean being stuck with a Fultz contract at 25-$30m and/or the Black pick not panning out with no true path. The only other third option would be to move Cole Anthony, which to me doesn't make much sense because he's cost controlled and will absolutely not be as expensive as Fultz.

This is the same thing they did with Bamba, but they didn't make any roster decisions after the fact. It turned into a completely botched draft because they went BPA with a project Center and had no plan in place when Vucevic obviously puts up numbers in a contract year. The latter scenario happened regardless and now the 2018 draft results in absolutely zero where it could have been a Porter/SGA/ etc asset. Had they thought about the pick making sense anywhere past the current season in front of them.

Bamba situation would turn out fine if he was not a bust. We got value from Vucevic and Bamba was ready to go. Problem is i dont think Fultz is half as good as Vucevic. We would have to add value to move him at 20-25M.
I dont think they picked the path yet or maybe they did but we dont know about it. We could still start Fultz for a year and Black would have to fight for minutes. It would not be a disaster. Problem is higher ceiling prospects like Suggs or Howard would got the Hampton treatment.

The Bamba example has nothing to do with the pick panning out or not. The Bamba example is being used in this thread to illustrate how this FO is incapable of making decisions when presented with two very clear options. Yes, they are risks. Thats their job is to make decisions whether they pan out or not.

They selected Bamba, chose the path of least resistance, decided to "wait and see" as everyone loves to suggest, and botched the pick due to the other options on the board.

Black is not fighting for minutes against Fultz. Black is fighting for minutes against Fultz and Cole Anthony in contract years. Thats a much different situation that being a true Center that can't share the floor with a guy in a contract season that also plays 28+mpg.

Suggs and Howard have nothing to do with this. They can share the floor in multiple lineups. You draft Black to be a primary ball handler and multi positional defender. He cannot share the floor with Fultz.

[JoshuaPotter]

Spoiler:

Welcome back from lurking.

No offense, but what does the history of the #6 pick have to do with Orlando's roster situation? Whats the difference between that particular pick and any other bust taken in the top of the lottery? It frankly doesn't matter how much confidence anyone has in picks becoming players.

Cole Anthony has proven that he is absolutely capable of running point guard should Black be completely incapable (which I don't believe). The bottom line is that the FO didn't line up the contracts to meet with the planning of the roster in terms of the guard situation. They can't have it both ways. You cannot spend a #6 pick asset on a guy and ask him to play behind two other point guards for the foreseeable future. On top of that, you can't offer one of the guys in front of him a multi-year large deal and expect to retain the same value from that pick.

They have already made this decision with the draft. Doing some luke-warm non decision between the two paths will equal one or both negative results. By that I mean being stuck with a Fultz contract at 25-$30m and/or the Black pick not panning out with no true path. The only other third option would be to move Cole Anthony, which to me doesn't make much sense because he's cost controlled and will absolutely not be as expensive as Fultz.

This is the same thing they did with Bamba, but they didn't make any roster decisions after the fact. It turned into a completely botched draft because they went BPA with a project Center and had no plan in place when Vucevic obviously puts up numbers in a contract year. The latter scenario happened regardless and now the 2018 draft results in absolutely zero where it could have been a Porter/SGA/ etc asset. Had they thought about the pick making sense anywhere past the current season in front of them.

Bamba situation would turn out fine if he was not a bust. We got value from Vucevic and Bamba was ready to go. Problem is i dont think Fultz is half as good as Vucevic. We would have to add value to move him at 20-25M.
I dont think they picked the path yet or maybe they did but we dont know about it. We could still start Fultz for a year and Black would have to fight for minutes. It would not be a disaster. Problem is higher ceiling prospects like Suggs or Howard would got the Hampton treatment.

The Bamba example has nothing to do with the pick panning out or not. The Bamba example is being used in this thread to illustrate how this FO is incapable of making decisions when presented with two very clear options. Yes, they are risks. Thats their job is to make decisions whether they pan out or not.

They selected Bamba, chose the path of least resistance, decided to "wait and see" as everyone loves to suggest, and botched the pick due to the other options on the board.

Black is not fighting for minutes against Fultz. Black is fighting for minutes against Fultz and Cole Anthony in contract years. Thats a much different situation that being a true Center that can't share the floor with a guy in a contract season that also plays 28+mpg.

Suggs and Howard have nothing to do with this. They can share the floor in multiple lineups. You draft Black to be a primary ball handler and multi positional defender. He cannot share the floor with Fultz.

This is possible some of the best back and forth on the forum I have seen in a long time.

Put plainly, I think this draft in terms of hype was deeper then many before it. Last years draft was kinda "meh" and we scored the current BPA from it.

This years draft will likely have boons and busts as well, yet on paper the "next best player" in the NBA has likely been drafted. Then you have the twins hype. Miller showing a lot of promise and from there a lot of solid players. Things play out just a little bit differently with the twins and suddenly Black is likely taking 4th and thus the whole conversation lacks relevance.

Personally I am waiting to see what happened because on paper, we got the best thing we could want. A way to "peacefully divorce" from our current pedestrian "G" rotation. Of which the best two tradable assets are Cole + Suggs. Which is shocking in its own way.

[Bensational]

This is the catch-22 that happens when you rebuild properly - you become overstocked with good young prospects. And if you pick BPA then it can mean overlap.

There's a lot of anguish about the role/opportunity our newly acquired #6 pick is going to get, but there's not much talk about our #11 pick being buried behind Franz and the SGs, or our 2 year old #5 pick and what his role is going to be. Just look at how quickly people have soured on Suggs and his current readiness to be a major cog in a team. What if we'd drafted Ausar or Whitmore? Would we be insisting our new #6 pick starts over our recently new #5 pick?

So much stress and worry, and nobody realising - we never heard any real complaints this season from people that they felt they hadn't seen enough of WCJ/Paolo/Franz/Suggs/Fultz/Cole/Bol/Bamba/etc this season to have a sense of who those guys are and can be. Time and touches will be there.

I mean, there's gonna be some implosions around here if the Magic retain Harris as the starting or backup SG and that impacts Black's role/minutes - even though Harris brings us the shooting those same voices have been screaming for.

[Bensational]

The Bamba example has nothing to do with the pick panning out or not. The Bamba example is being used in this thread to illustrate how this FO is incapable of making decisions when presented with two very clear options. Yes, they are risks. Thats their job is to make decisions whether they pan out or not.

They selected Bamba, chose the path of least resistance, decided to "wait and see" as everyone loves to suggest, and botched the pick due to the other options on the board.

In retrospect, they made the right choice didn’t they? Vuc proved to be the better player then and even after Bamba was gifted minutes he did little to justify them. Then they moved on from Vuc and traded him for the C taken just after Bamba who has since replaced him.

Chicago gave Wendell the start since drafting him and then moved him for Vuc because Vuc looked better - but WCJr has since looked better in many regards (particularly value). Between those two teams with almost opposite circumstances I think WeHam handled their prospects the best in the end (even though I was frustrated with Clifford for not giving Bamba more time - the kid just clearly didn’t earn any of it).

[Catledge]

No offense, but what does the history of the #6 pick have to do with Orlando's roster situation? Whats the difference between that particular pick and any other bust taken in the top of the lottery? It frankly doesn't matter how much confidence anyone has in picks becoming players.

Most #6 picks do not become long-term NBA starters. What reason do we have to be sure that this one will be? Just gut feeling? You have some special eye test that NBA front offices that draft at #6 don't have?

Drafting is hard, and most draft picks don't work out. We should make our plans with that reality in mind.

We should not make plans under the assumption that every choice we make is perfect. We should make plans with the awareness that many draft judgements will be mistakes.

[VFX]

The Bamba example has nothing to do with the pick panning out or not. The Bamba example is being used in this thread to illustrate how this FO is incapable of making decisions when presented with two very clear options. Yes, they are risks. Thats their job is to make decisions whether they pan out or not.

They selected Bamba, chose the path of least resistance, decided to "wait and see" as everyone loves to suggest, and botched the pick due to the other options on the board.

In retrospect, they made the right choice didn’t they? Vuc proved to be the better player then and even after Bamba was gifted minutes he did little to justify them. Then they moved on from Vuc and traded him for the C taken just after Bamba who has since replaced him.

Chicago gave Wendell the start since drafting him and then moved him for Vuc because Vuc looked better - but WCJr has since looked better in many regards (particularly value). Between those two teams with almost opposite circumstances I think WeHam handled their prospects the best in the end (even though I was frustrated with Clifford for not giving Bamba more time - the kid just clearly didn’t earn any of it).

Yes and no.

It worked out for them but not due to any decisions they made. They wasted a 2018 pick in a generational draft. If everyone is OK with that then so be it.

Yes, Vucevic eventually netted a return. I'd argue them not making a sooner decision wasted a few years, but thats a different conversation for another thread.

[VFX]

No offense, but what does the history of the #6 pick have to do with Orlando's roster situation? Whats the difference between that particular pick and any other bust taken in the top of the lottery? It frankly doesn't matter how much confidence anyone has in picks becoming players.

Most #6 picks do not become long-term NBA starters. What reason do we have to be sure that this one will be? Just gut feeling? You have some special eye test that NBA front offices that draft at #6 don't have?

Drafting is hard, and most draft picks don't work out. We should make our plans with that reality in mind.

We should not make plans under the assumption that every choice we make is perfect. We should make plans with the awareness that many draft judgements will be mistakes.

The context of what you are suggesting is that Orlando's FO should pay Fultz starters money because you don't trust the draft and you sooner trust him to develop a shot. I don't.

Luckily Orlando has more insurance at the point guard spot that I would take that risk.

[Catledge]

No offense, but what does the history of the #6 pick have to do with Orlando's roster situation? Whats the difference between that particular pick and any other bust taken in the top of the lottery? It frankly doesn't matter how much confidence anyone has in picks becoming players.

Most #6 picks do not become long-term NBA starters. What reason do we have to be sure that this one will be? Just gut feeling? You have some special eye test that NBA front offices that draft at #6 don't have?

Drafting is hard, and most draft picks don't work out. We should make our plans with that reality in mind.

We should not make plans under the assumption that every choice we make is perfect. We should make plans with the awareness that many draft judgements will be mistakes.

The context of what you are suggesting is that Orlando's FO should pay Fultz starters money because you don't trust the draft and you sooner trust him to develop a shot. I don't.

Luckily Orlando has more insurance at the point guard spot that I would take that risk.

No, I'm suggesting that there is no need to make that choice now. It's possible that next summer will hit and we'll decide that neither Black nor Fultz should be our starting PG in 2025.

Let me ask you this: What if Black turns out to be as bad at basketball as Bamba and Hezonja are? Should we just force Franz and Paolo to put up with a poop player in the lineup because we have plans?

[VFX]

Most #6 picks do not become long-term NBA starters. What reason do we have to be sure that this one will be? Just gut feeling? You have some special eye test that NBA front offices that draft at #6 don't have?

Drafting is hard, and most draft picks don't work out. We should make our plans with that reality in mind.

We should not make plans under the assumption that every choice we make is perfect. We should make plans with the awareness that many draft judgements will be mistakes.

The context of what you are suggesting is that Orlando's FO should pay Fultz starters money because you don't trust the draft and you sooner trust him to develop a shot. I don't.

Luckily Orlando has more insurance at the point guard spot that I would take that risk.

No, I'm suggesting that there is no need to make that choice now. It's possible that next summer will hit and we'll decide that neither Black nor Fultz should be our starting PG in 2025.

Let me ask you this: What if Black turns out to be as bad at basketball as Bamba and Hezonja are? Should we just force Franz and Paolo to put up with a poop player in the lineup because we have plans?

Oh but there is. On one hand you are paying a guy $6.5m for 4 full seasons on a rookie deal compared to either letting Fultz walk for zero return (never happening), or having to pay him 25-$30m. Yeah, that’s not going to be the case with Weltman stating he wants to “grow organically”. Picking mystery box option C in the immediate future isn’t an out to making decisions.

No, but Cole Anthony is also an option. He’s still on the team last I checked and likely won’t cost $30m. So should Anthony Black be as bad as your guessing he could possibly be, then there is an option to not needing to keep Fultz. However, we won’t even have that information if he’s playing RJ Hampton minutes because two guys in contract years have something to prove and people can’t look beyond next season for whatever reason.

[Bensational]

Yes and no.

It worked out for them but not due to any decisions they made. They wasted a 2018 pick in a generational draft. If everyone is OK with that then so be it.

Yes, Vucevic eventually netted a return. I'd argue them not making a sooner decision wasted a few years, but thats a different conversation for another thread.

We have to be ok with it because we can’t change it. The only two prospects within range of Bamba that they passed up on were SGA and Bridges. Easy to say in hindsight but to apply that today we’d have to have people saying they’d take Cason/obvious star who went 10+ who we missed at 6. Not many people were calling for that ahead of the draft. Some calling for trade backs but the only trade back which happened was 7 to 8 and 10 to 12.

[VFX]

Yes and no.

It worked out for them but not due to any decisions they made. They wasted a 2018 pick in a generational draft. If everyone is OK with that then so be it.

Yes, Vucevic eventually netted a return. I'd argue them not making a sooner decision wasted a few years, but thats a different conversation for another thread.

We have to be ok with it because we can’t change it. The only two prospects within range of Bamba that they passed up on were SGA and Bridges. Easy to say in hindsight but to apply that today we’d have to have people saying they’d take Cason/obvious star who went 10+ who we missed at 6. Not many people were calling for that ahead of the draft. Some calling for trade backs but the only trade back which happened was 7 to 8 and 10 to 12.

Well yeah. It’s kind of the whole idea of disagreeing with a decision they made right? Just like I’d disagree to draft Anthony Black with a #6 pick, claim they want a path for him to succeed, and then resign both guards ahead of him in the lineup. A decision kinda like that right?

It was easy to say it then and easy to say now in hindsight. Without getting too deep into the Bamba decision for the millionth time, they drafted him expecting to move Vuc, never did it and realized he was a complete project. Any idiot with the roster written on a piece of paper in front of their face in 2017 could have told you it didn’t make sense with the options on the board.

This draft wasn’t as obvious other than not drafting a PF/F even though I still saw some people try to justify such a pick as expected. I said it predraft and I’ll say it now: Fultz insurance. If the FO doesn’t have to pay him and can avoid it by extending out the timeframe, then they’ve won. Drafting Black and still going through with it? Exactly the Bamba situation.

And still some will say “let’s just wait and see” like timeframes, contracts, cap space, and asset valuation return isn’t a thing. I mean. Yeah to bad GMs without a plan it doesn’t mean anything.

[Bensational]

This draft wasn’t as obvious other than not drafting a PF/F even though I still saw some people try to justify such a pick as expected. I said it predraft and I’ll say it now: Fultz insurance. If the FO doesn’t have to pay him and can avoid it by extending out the timeframe, then they’ve won. Drafting Black and still going through with it? Exactly the Bamba situation.

And still some will say “let’s just wait and see” like timeframes, contracts, cap space, and asset valuation return isn’t a thing. I mean. Yeah to bad GMs without a plan it doesn’t mean anything.

So in the event Fultz has an all star season like Vuc did, with career highs in 3’s like Vuc, and Black looks as busty as rookie Bamba did (highly unlikely IMO) - which would be The Bamba Situation again - this time you want the Magic to let the all star go and hand the reigns over to the busted former #6 pick?

Weltman has always stressed flexibility. He hasn’t done anything yet to jeopardise that.

[VFX]

This draft wasn’t as obvious other than not drafting a PF/F even though I still saw some people try to justify such a pick as expected. I said it predraft and I’ll say it now: Fultz insurance. If the FO doesn’t have to pay him and can avoid it by extending out the timeframe, then they’ve won. Drafting Black and still going through with it? Exactly the Bamba situation.

And still some will say “let’s just wait and see” like timeframes, contracts, cap space, and asset valuation return isn’t a thing. I mean. Yeah to bad GMs without a plan it doesn’t mean anything.

So in the event Fultz has an all star season like Vuc did, with career highs in 3’s like Vuc, and Black looks as busty as rookie Bamba did (highly unlikely IMO) - which would be The Bamba Situation again - this time you want the Magic to let the all star go and hand the reigns over to the busted former #6 pick?

Weltman has always stressed flexibility. He hasn’t done anything yet to jeopardise that.

No. I’m suggesting it’s never a comparison.

Get rid of Fultz now so that’s not even an option. Fultz is not currently an allstar. Fultz is “getting comfortable” learning how to shoot a basketball with 3 games left in his 6th year in the league by his own admission.

They will jeopardize their flexibility by choosing neither option, which is what I believe they will do and why this thread is already as long as it is. They will either lose Fultz altogether by letting him walk or they will sign him to some exorbitant deal he will have justified at the very last moment making an already difficult to move asset infinitely more unmovable.

I’d rather they do neither and trade him beforehand.

[Rainwater]

It’s become increasingly obvious to me that the only people who hate Fultz are on this board. I don’t see Black ever replacing him at the starter spot with the Magic being successful. With all the bitching I hear about Fultz shooting, I’ve watched enough of Black in college to see he’s worse offensively than Fultz. The only think he has on Fultz is height, and 2 feet of that is his ridiculous hair. I hope Fultz has a career year and leaves this debate in the dust. Markelle is the only leader this team has, a fact totally lost on this board.

If all of this is how the Magic’s front office feels then they shouldn’t have picked Black.

Yeah, you don't use the 6th pick to draft a backup. Unless Black looks like a bust or Fultz has an all-star season, pretty certain Fultz is gone. He is either traded not resigned.

[J the Drafter]

I’m gonna drop this here as a counterpoint to the claim that shooting is so important it demands we choose between good players.

Watch on YouTube

Tl;dr, bad shooters can cut and drive instead of spotting up. (Not covered is putting nonshooters in the dunker’s spot or using them as screeners.)

My belief is that the best way forward for the Magic is to adapt a dual-point guard system. Better playmaking can only be a good thing, and it beats the alternative of sending out a player or two simply to maintain a more traditional roster.

[drsd]

..


Adam Silver is 6'3"




Juwan Howard is 6'9"



Jett Howard looks to be just at 6'6"


These don't look like huge lift shoes:






So what is this photo ?!?!?!?!?
Black is not 6'9". What's going on here?

[drsd]

These shoes might be adding a 1/2 inch for Black compared to Howard:




But it is pretty clear, Black is much taller than listed height and is taller than Howard.
(Note the players are in the same suits so presumably are wearing the same shoes)