FIRE WELTMAN

[eyriq]

If the backcourt upgrade required AB and a pick then EXTEND Weltman NOW for standing pat. Sounds like Cole and Harris didn't have any value.

[MartinsIzAfraud]

If the backcourt upgrade required AB and a pick then EXTEND Weltman NOW for standing pat. Sounds like Cole and Harris didn't have any value.

that's what it's going to take in the summer plus more lol

[jonbob17]

First round exit vs team without starting all star C and bench PF, with healthiest roster in nba

You are talking circles around the main points.

Facts
1. 4 seasons ago Weltman blew up the failed build he inherited
2. Weltman tanked for two seasons to acquire franchise players
3. We are in year 4 of the rebuild
4. The cap sheet resembles a tanking team (top three paid players are JI, KCP, and Cole)
5. The average team has 30% turnover each season

Main points
1. The core is young (all still on their rookie scale contracts)
2. The core is performing well (+12, +13 wins in back-to-back seasons)
3. The cap sheet is maturing and will soon resemble the average cap sheet as players hit their second deals
4. We are ahead of schedule with our performance which is a strong testament to the quality of our young players and coaching
5. We can expect to start seeing roster turnover as the team matures

The angst and rage is misplaced.

IMO the Thunder have screwed up everyone's expectations,. They are a "unicorn" with an incredible combo of skilled management, luck, and taking advantage of others' desperation. And they STILL haven't actually won anything. But looking to them as the "standard" is unrealistic, but that's the Internet for you.

OKC was great at taking advantage of desperate GMs. Hennigan gave them a 23 yo Oladipo and pick(Sabonis) for a former stud athletic defender who was clearly in severe decline. Ibaka's DBPM the season before we traded for him was 0.0.

They then give Oladipo the opportunity to blossom, and moved him to a Pacers team being forced to get rid of Paul George...fair enough trade though.

Then an ultra desperate Clippers front office willing to give anything for Paul George since his acquisition also meant acquiring Kawhi coming fresh off an unlikely championship.

OKC should be the example of what not to do, as in don't let teams do to us what OKC did to others, including the Magic. OKC got to the top of the talent/picks mountain by taking advantage of impatient GMs. I don't think there was a move out there at the deadline that improved our chances of a championship. Now there were opportunities to see different things out of this team, like adding a Lavine or some score first guard....but thats just a strategy, they chose patience and we still have the same assets as we did a couple weeks ago.

[Fortune Teller]

Not sure I’m reading this right, are people using Cleveland as an example to support their argument that Jeff is doing the right thing by standing pat? Cleveland sent Sexton, Markkanen and three firsts to Utah to land Donovan Mitchell, the move that shot them up to top 4 in the East. Markkanen and Sexton were both better than AB, who is apparently untouchable in the eyes of some posters, and Mobley and Garland were both as young or younger than our core (but the timeline!) Do you think the Cavs care about the picks if they’re leading the East? You have to give something to get something.

[Idiosyncratic]

Not sure I’m reading this right, are people using Cleveland as an example to support their argument that Jeff is doing the right thing by standing pat? Cleveland sent Sexton, Markkanen and three firsts to Utah to land Donovan Mitchell, the move that shot them up to top 4 in the East. Markkanen and Sexton were both better than AB, who is apparently untouchable in the eyes of some posters, and Mobley and Garland were both as young or younger than our core (but the timeline!) Do you think the Cavs care about the picks if they’re leading the East? You have to give something to get something.

You are not reading it right.

Yes trading for stars if you can afford it (in terms of assets and payroll) makes you better, I think most people agree on that.

[Fortune Teller]

Not sure I’m reading this right, are people using Cleveland as an example to support their argument that Jeff is doing the right thing by standing pat? Cleveland sent Sexton, Markkanen and three firsts to Utah to land Donovan Mitchell, the move that shot them up to top 4 in the East. Markkanen and Sexton were both better than AB, who is apparently untouchable in the eyes of some posters, and Mobley and Garland were both as young or younger than our core (but the timeline!) Do you think the Cavs care about the picks if they’re leading the East? You have to give something to get something.

You are not reading it right.

Yes trading for stars if you can afford it (in terms of assets and payroll) makes you better, I think most people agree on that.

Ok well no one said the Magic couldn’t afford to make a trade, just that Jeff didn’t even try, or in a best-case scenario wasn’t willing to give up picks or basically anyone he’d ever drafted. So we’ll just wait another 8 years to see how it works out.

[Redwood]

Neither PB or Franz are superstars

This is the blinking red warning light that a lot of the "trust the long-term plan" guys don't seem to understand. I think it's been so long since the Magic have had a superstar that they don't remember what it's like to watch one. We don't have an SGA, Wemby, Giannis, Tatum or the like. We have two star players that aren't a natural on-court fit. It's going to take more than Banchero and Wagner to become contenders.

Wonder what we could get for Franz?

https://stathead.com/basketball/versus-finder.cgi?request=1&seasons_type=perchoice&player_id1=wagnefr01&p1yrfrom=2025&p1yrto=2025&player_id2=gilgesh01&p2yrfrom=2022&p2yrto=2022

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM Forums mobile app

Maybe we could trade him for the crystal ball you used to look into the future and see that his trajectory continued along the same path as SGA.

I like Franz, I think he's the best player on the team, but he would need to both improve his play and be consistent at it across multiple seasons before he approaches SGA territory.

Suggs seemed to be on a good trajectory too, now that season looks like an outlier.

[Skybox]

Not sure I’m reading this right, are people using Cleveland as an example to support their argument that Jeff is doing the right thing by standing pat? Cleveland sent Sexton, Markkanen and three firsts to Utah to land Donovan Mitchell, the move that shot them up to top 4 in the East. Markkanen and Sexton were both better than AB, who is apparently untouchable in the eyes of some posters, and Mobley and Garland were both as young or younger than our core (but the timeline!) Do you think the Cavs care about the picks if they’re leading the East? You have to give something to get something.

I agree...much better parallel than OKC (who STARTED their rebuild with a guy who is better than Mitchell).

add the next chapter...best record in the East and they STILL make a big trade for Deandre Hunter because you're never good enough!! He's another good defender to throw at the Celtics...and, if they get by him, meet Mobley and Allen.

[pepe1991]

Not sure I’m reading this right, are people using Cleveland as an example to support their argument that Jeff is doing the right thing by standing pat? Cleveland sent Sexton, Markkanen and three firsts to Utah to land Donovan Mitchell, the move that shot them up to top 4 in the East. Markkanen and Sexton were both better than AB, who is apparently untouchable in the eyes of some posters, and Mobley and Garland were both as young or younger than our core (but the timeline!) Do you think the Cavs care about the picks if they’re leading the East? You have to give something to get something.

I agree...much better parallel than OKC (who STARTED their rebuild with a guy who is better than Mitchell).

add the next chapter...best record in the East and they STILL make a big trade for Deandre Hunter because you're never good enough!! He's another good defender to throw at the Celtics...and, if they get by him, meet Mobley and Allen.

We prefer Wizards approach.
Drafted well ( Wall and Beal) than made sure they never actually go anywhere with spineless, cosmetic mini moves and investing in "development" of world beaters like Kelly Oubre and Otto Porter because "organic" > winning.

If you run enough "organic" years things will fall in place, your two stars will cap out your team and you will no longer be pressured to make any teams as you run out of money.

#Blueprint.

[Skybox]

Not sure I’m reading this right, are people using Cleveland as an example to support their argument that Jeff is doing the right thing by standing pat? Cleveland sent Sexton, Markkanen and three firsts to Utah to land Donovan Mitchell, the move that shot them up to top 4 in the East. Markkanen and Sexton were both better than AB, who is apparently untouchable in the eyes of some posters, and Mobley and Garland were both as young or younger than our core (but the timeline!) Do you think the Cavs care about the picks if they’re leading the East? You have to give something to get something.

I agree...much better parallel than OKC (who STARTED their rebuild with a guy who is better than Mitchell).

add the next chapter...best record in the East and they STILL make a big trade for Deandre Hunter because you're never good enough!! He's another good defender to throw at the Celtics...and, if they get by him, meet Mobley and Allen.

We prefer Wizards approach.
Drafted well ( Wall and Beal) than made sure they never actually go anywhere with spineless, cosmetic mini moves and investing in "development" of world beaters like Kelly Oubre and Otto Porter because "organic" > winning.

If you run enough "organic" years things will fall in place, your two stars will cap out your team and you will no longer be pressured to make any teams as you run out of money.

#Blueprint.

good point...and then your homegrown stars will have you over a barrel and potentially demand an insane deal like Beal's. Pay him or start your rebuild immediately. Beal was not impactful enough to get that stupid deal and WAS blinked. Beal is still holding the NBA hostage with that no-trade clause and he may not even be a top 50 player.

[pepe1991]

I agree...much better parallel than OKC (who STARTED their rebuild with a guy who is better than Mitchell).

add the next chapter...best record in the East and they STILL make a big trade for Deandre Hunter because you're never good enough!! He's another good defender to throw at the Celtics...and, if they get by him, meet Mobley and Allen.

We prefer Wizards approach.
Drafted well ( Wall and Beal) than made sure they never actually go anywhere with spineless, cosmetic mini moves and investing in "development" of world beaters like Kelly Oubre and Otto Porter because "organic" > winning.

If you run enough "organic" years things will fall in place, your two stars will cap out your team and you will no longer be pressured to make any teams as you run out of money.

#Blueprint.

good point...and then your homegrown stars will have you over a barrel and potentially demand an insane deal like Beal's. Pay him or start your rebuild immediately. Beal was not impactful enough to get that stupid deal and WAS blinked. Beal is still holding the NBA hostage with that no-trade clause and he may not even be a top 50 player.

But but but
49 wins once!
Homegrown.
Friendship
Kelly Oubre heart and soul
Otto Porter "better than stats"

Did you know Otto Porter was better than Igoudala was at age of 22, Wall was better than Curry at age of 21 and Beal was better than Klay? Just give them time god damn it !

There is my green font

[Idiosyncratic]

Not sure I’m reading this right, are people using Cleveland as an example to support their argument that Jeff is doing the right thing by standing pat? Cleveland sent Sexton, Markkanen and three firsts to Utah to land Donovan Mitchell, the move that shot them up to top 4 in the East. Markkanen and Sexton were both better than AB, who is apparently untouchable in the eyes of some posters, and Mobley and Garland were both as young or younger than our core (but the timeline!) Do you think the Cavs care about the picks if they’re leading the East? You have to give something to get something.

I agree...much better parallel than OKC (who STARTED their rebuild with a guy who is better than Mitchell).

add the next chapter...best record in the East and they STILL make a big trade for Deandre Hunter because you're never good enough!! He's another good defender to throw at the Celtics...and, if they get by him, meet Mobley and Allen.

We prefer Wizards approach.
Drafted well ( Wall and Beal) than made sure they never actually go anywhere with spineless, cosmetic mini moves and investing in "development" of world beaters like Kelly Oubre and Otto Porter because "organic" > winning.

If you run enough "organic" years things will fall in place, your two stars will cap out your team and you will no longer be pressured to make any teams as you run out of money.

#Blueprint.

Wall/Beal/Porter trio was pretty good, they failed to add basically anyone else above average. Gortat was decent.

Wizards did what a lot of people here suggest, trade their 1st round pick for help and they did it almost EVERY single year with that squad. Traded a 1st for Gortat, then traded one for Markieff Morris and then traded another for Bogdanovic. Never hit on another pick to go with Wall/Beal/Porter never really hit on a decent free agent, kept trading for mediocre bandaids.

At the end of the day they had some fun seasons for not having a true star. Wall was very inefficient as a lead guy, but they really failed at adding a supporting cast, their only good players were top 3 picks. Oubre has always sucked.

If the argument is the Wizards should have taken a bigger swing then yeah probably, that isn't always there though. I'm sure they wanted KD it didn't pan out, people also wanted Paul George at times (team was not winning a finals with overrated George). But yeah I would agree big swing over death by a thousand trade 1st rounder for mediocre player cuts is good. Hitting on picks is better than that by a mile too.

I would prefer the Magic to get Maxey if he becomes available to a lot of alternatives, that is the Donovan Mitchell equivalent. He may never become available until he costs 55 million then it probably won't work without giving up 1 of our 3.

[dsg2003mach1]

fire weltman or not, short of a superstar landing in our lap via the draft feels like we'll be saying the same things 5 years from now.

[Idiosyncratic]

We prefer Wizards approach.
Drafted well ( Wall and Beal) than made sure they never actually go anywhere with spineless, cosmetic mini moves and investing in "development" of world beaters like Kelly Oubre and Otto Porter because "organic" > winning.

If you run enough "organic" years things will fall in place, your two stars will cap out your team and you will no longer be pressured to make any teams as you run out of money.

#Blueprint.

good point...and then your homegrown stars will have you over a barrel and potentially demand an insane deal like Beal's. Pay him or start your rebuild immediately. Beal was not impactful enough to get that stupid deal and WAS blinked. Beal is still holding the NBA hostage with that no-trade clause and he may not even be a top 50 player.

But but but
49 wins once!
Homegrown.
Friendship
Kelly Oubre heart and soul
Otto Porter "better than stats"

Did you know Otto Porter was better than Igoudala was at age of 22, Wall was better than Curry at age of 21 and Beal was better than Klay? Just give them time god damn it !

There is my green font

Porter won a ring as a key cog on the Warriors so he did kind of get the last laugh out of that squad

I see you mention the Wizards a lot pepe, why is that? I am from the DC area so curios.

[three3d]

TANK FOR HANK

[VFX]

It’s not really a difficult concept.

1. You tank if you have no star(s). Trade out of mediocrity if needed.
2. You draft at the top hoping to land cornerstone players.
3. Maybe you get lucky and don’t need to for years.
4. Start developing around core weaknesses/ strengths.
(Magic are here)
5. Acquire talent via draft and trade to round out roster.
6. Compete for playoffs consistently. Start over if you can’t.
7. Push contention. Sign vets that know you are serious.
8. Make moves to remain in contention (minor or major).

Weltman is not committing to #5 yet. Hes middling at 4.5 right now. KCP addressed neither strengths or weaknesses. His signing was a step back. It’s arguable his trade value is higher than his on court value right now.

They are already past steps 1-4. The draft is not a viable option at this point based on acquiring specific skill sets.

If Weltman does not trade for players at this juncture he has outgrown his usefulness at this point in the process. You cannot re-sign everyone and expect different results to mitigate your rosters weaknesses. Internal development doesn’t solve everything.

[pepe1991]

good point...and then your homegrown stars will have you over a barrel and potentially demand an insane deal like Beal's. Pay him or start your rebuild immediately. Beal was not impactful enough to get that stupid deal and WAS blinked. Beal is still holding the NBA hostage with that no-trade clause and he may not even be a top 50 player.

But but but
49 wins once!
Homegrown.
Friendship
Kelly Oubre heart and soul
Otto Porter "better than stats"

Did you know Otto Porter was better than Igoudala was at age of 22, Wall was better than Curry at age of 21 and Beal was better than Klay? Just give them time god damn it !

There is my green font

Porter won a ring as a key cog on the Warriors so he did kind of get the last laugh out of that squad

I see you mention the Wizards a lot pepe, why is that? I am from the DC area so curios.

Bogdanovic trade was:
Andrew Nicholson ( looool)
Marcus Thorton
lottery protected pick (tough luck, with 22 pick Nets pulled Jarret Allen)

That trade also helped them pass first round of playoffs ( and go to 7 games in second round) and season was most succesful Wizards season in past...40 years?

Wizards irritate me for years
It all started around probably 2012 when they brought roster with like 10 centers on it.

Easly worst handled team in my life time. Over time i developed unhealthy fascination how one team always finds ways to screw everything up.

[Idiosyncratic]

But but but
49 wins once!
Homegrown.
Friendship
Kelly Oubre heart and soul
Otto Porter "better than stats"

Did you know Otto Porter was better than Igoudala was at age of 22, Wall was better than Curry at age of 21 and Beal was better than Klay? Just give them time god damn it !

There is my green font

Porter won a ring as a key cog on the Warriors so he did kind of get the last laugh out of that squad

I see you mention the Wizards a lot pepe, why is that? I am from the DC area so curios.

Bogdanovic trade was:
Andrew Nicholson ( looool)
Marcus Thorton
lottery protected pick (tough luck, with 22 pick Nets pulled Jarret Allen)

That trade also helped them pass first round of playoffs ( and go to 7 games in second round) and season was most succesful Wizards season in past...40 years?

Wizards irritate me for years
It all started around probably 2012 when they brought roster with like 10 centers on it.

Easly worst handled team in my life time.

Yeah Grunfeld was one of the worst GMs I have seen. A lot of my philosophy about not wanting to trade 1sts for non impact players comes from what they did lol. And the FA signings of Mahimni and Nicholson were epicly bad.

Bogdanovic got played off the floor in the playoffs, he was a huge negative in the Boston series. They would have been better without IMO. He was awful in that series on defense. Don't think it was a terrible trade in a vacuum just the fact that they traded all of their 1sts led them to a bad place, coupled with the bad signings, it all compounded. Then Wall fell off a cliff and Porter became made of glass. Beal also became glass later. Cursed bunch.

I do think the Wizards are on the right path now. I think they had a great deadline. They need lottery luck though.

Edit* And I am also now remembering Bogie only had half a season left on his contract, they only had to pay a 1st because they were unloading Nicholson's awful contract. Such bad GM work.

[eyriq]

It’s not really a difficult concept.

1. You tank if you have no star(s). Trade out of mediocrity if needed.
2. You draft at the top hoping to land cornerstone players.
3. Maybe you get lucky and don’t need to for years.
4. Start developing around core weaknesses/ strengths.
(Magic are here)
5. Acquire talent via draft and trade to round out roster.
6. Compete for playoffs consistently. Start over if you can’t.
7. Push contention. Sign vets that know you are serious.
8. Make moves to remain in contention (minor or major).

Weltman is not committing to #5 yet. Hes middling at 4.5 right now. KCP addressed neither strengths or weaknesses. His signing was a step back. It’s arguable his trade value is higher than his on court value right now.

They are already past steps 1-4. The draft is not a viable option at this point based on acquiring specific skill sets.

If Weltman does not trade for players at this juncture he has outgrown his usefulness at this point in the process. You cannot re-sign everyone and expect different results to mitigate your rosters weaknesses. Internal development doesn’t solve everything.

I love this, as I do most of your posts. I agree 100%. He needs to be proactive, especially since he needs to undo some plans that are in motion, namely WCJ as the long-term starting big, Jett as the scoring guard heir apparent, and KCP as the near-term backcourt starter.

All three of those plans look worse by the game.

[JoshuaPotter]

It’s not really a difficult concept.

1. You tank if you have no star(s). Trade out of mediocrity if needed.
2. You draft at the top hoping to land cornerstone players.
3. Maybe you get lucky and don’t need to for years.
4. Start developing around core weaknesses/ strengths.
(Magic are here)
5. Acquire talent via draft and trade to round out roster.
6. Compete for playoffs consistently. Start over if you can’t.
7. Push contention. Sign vets that know you are serious.
8. Make moves to remain in contention (minor or major).

Weltman is not committing to #5 yet. Hes middling at 4.5 right now. KCP addressed neither strengths or weaknesses. His signing was a step back. It’s arguable his trade value is higher than his on court value right now.

They are already past steps 1-4. The draft is not a viable option at this point based on acquiring specific skill sets.

If Weltman does not trade for players at this juncture he has outgrown his usefulness at this point in the process. You cannot re-sign everyone and expect different results to mitigate your rosters weaknesses. Internal development doesn’t solve everything.

I love this, as I do most of your posts. I agree 100%. He needs to be proactive, especially since he needs to undo some plans that are in motion, namely WCJ as the long-term starting big, Jett as the scoring guard heir apparent, and KCP as the near-term backcourt starter.

All three of those plans look worse by the game.

+1
Tik-Tok, it looks worse.