Official Speculation Thread ‘17-18’: XVIII: The Long Wait Continues

[Def Swami]

I think folks will be surprised by how little BIG actually sees the court together this season.

[JBSouthpaw]

anyone check the all access video on the magic site?
they do a jump ball between Vuc and Mo. Bamba gets his whole hand above Vuc's. We should start Bamba just for the jump ball.

https://www.nba.com/magic/videos/all-access/orlando-magic-training-camp-201808928

[JBSouthpaw]

Can we please stop using the reference of BIG. It literally makes me cringe when I see and read it.

I'm all for the Glorious BIG.

I just find stupid that everything needs to have gimmick.
From Congo twins, Loladipo, having thread about Isaac's nickname, sound from Super mario whenever he scores, yelling VUUUUUUC , and in general nba "Durantula", "king James" , Black Mamba.
I get why nba uses it, for marketing, but why fans like to use it is still beyond me.
"Glorious BIG" is as cringy as Playoff P - self named nickname by Paul Geroge.

Nothing will ever top " Bad Porn" Maggette tho

Now when i think about it, calling Fat Lever- FAT because his brother was too lazy to call him Layfayette is probably worst

giimicks like these can bring together a fan base. "do your job" Patriots. Whatever Philly had with the dog mask, all the way back to the amazing mets, Broadway Joe.
I get the forced nicknames though, it should happen naturally.

[JBSouthpaw]

I think folks will be surprised by how little BIG actually sees the court together this season.

Gordan and J.I. played 135 min together last year, out of J.I.'s 600 total minutes. I think they'll be together quite a bit. Especially since Vuc is a FA after this year, you really need to see if the young guys can handle it.

[pepe1991]

I'm all for the Glorious BIG.

I just find stupid that everything needs to have gimmick.
From Congo twins, Loladipo, having thread about Isaac's nickname, sound from Super mario whenever he scores, yelling VUUUUUUC , and in general nba "Durantula", "king James" , Black Mamba.
I get why nba uses it, for marketing, but why fans like to use it is still beyond me.
"Glorious BIG" is as cringy as Playoff P - self named nickname by Paul Geroge.

Nothing will ever top " Bad Porn" Maggette tho

Now when i think about it, calling Fat Lever- FAT because his brother was too lazy to call him Layfayette is probably worst

giimicks like these can bring together a fan base. "do your job" Patriots. Whatever Philly had with the dog mask, all the way back to the amazing mets, Broadway Joe.
I get the forced nicknames though, it should happen naturally.

imo they are fabricated to sell merchandise.
76ers sold their tanking on trust the process , sometimes it's cool, but sometimes it's just lazy.
" Glorious BIG" for 3 dudes that never played single game together might be bigger reach than team SWAT.

[JBSouthpaw]

I just find stupid that everything needs to have gimmick.
From Congo twins, Loladipo, having thread about Isaac's nickname, sound from Super mario whenever he scores, yelling VUUUUUUC , and in general nba "Durantula", "king James" , Black Mamba.
I get why nba uses it, for marketing, but why fans like to use it is still beyond me.
"Glorious BIG" is as cringy as Playoff P - self named nickname by Paul Geroge.

Nothing will ever top " Bad Porn" Maggette tho

Now when i think about it, calling Fat Lever- FAT because his brother was too lazy to call him Layfayette is probably worst

giimicks like these can bring together a fan base. "do your job" Patriots. Whatever Philly had with the dog mask, all the way back to the amazing mets, Broadway Joe.
I get the forced nicknames though, it should happen naturally.

imo they are fabricated to sell merchandise.
76ers sold their tanking on trust the process , sometimes it's cool, but sometimes it's just lazy.
" Glorious BIG" for 3 dudes that never played single game together might be bigger reach than team SWAT.

LAC's lob city was named that before CP ever played with them.
Same for the original twin towers Hakem and Ralph.

yes, fans "buy" in, that is the goal. Makes everyone money.

[MagicFan101]

I think folks will be surprised by how little BIG actually sees the court together this season.

For as long as Vuc is here there is nothing to be surprised about.

I fully expect us to field any and all offers on Vuc at the deadline but be content with letting him walk rather than take a bad deal. The BIG may be a full year away but as long as growth is happening (in games or practice) then all is well.

[fendilim]

I think it will be more VIG this year. Than BIG.

Think we’re soft last year cause we ran VAG a lot..

[J the Drafter]

Apparently Grant is killing it in practice on defense and he moves the ball well on offense. Man, if this guy can somehow develop a shot he could be a great find for us.

Things to watch with Grant are how well he holds done the point of attack on D and if he has gotten any better as a shooter. I think something some people were not seeing for a while last year was how elf was not fighting through screens. Essentially our defense was breaking down so fast that it was guys playing catch up as soon as the first pass was made. DJ sucked at it too, but he can pass and shoot so he was a more effective player for us.

Grant should show a huge improvement on defense and should be our best defender at pg that we have seen in years. That type of play can make the team a serious force on defense especially with bamba and isaac in, since they will be able to help less and focus on locking down their man.

Point is that if someone on offense can show improvement in their shooting, this team could be a real pain to score against and grant could be a pleasant surprise.

Thats a big if though. We just have not shown that we can shoot well over the course of the season. JI and AG need to step it up there and i will be praying that Grant does as well, even though its probably a long shot.

There’s no way either of those players are better than a healthy Payton, though. You could tell, looking at footage from last year, that Elf wasn’t moving quite right. Heck, there weren’t any complaints about EP’s defense early last season, before the hamstring injury and the knee tendinopathy that followed it.

[PrimeThyme]

I think folks will be surprised by how little BIG actually sees the court together this season.

Yep, I can already see right now what the major problem that people are going to have with Clifford this year and thats going to be with the number of minutes that Bamba gets in general, especially with BIG. Its exactly why many of us didn't like the hire. Its similar to AG's first year with Vogel where for half the season Jeff green was averaging 5-10 more minutes than AG and would play every single meaningful minute in the 4th.

It's not necessarily about getting Bamba all these extra minutes year one or starting him, but with Clifford and Vuc here those meaningful minutes we want him to log next to AG and Isaac are going to be few and far between in my opinion and it's going to frustrate the fanbase.

[PennytoShaq]

Apparently Grant is killing it in practice on defense and he moves the ball well on offense. Man, if this guy can somehow develop a shot he could be a great find for us.

Things to watch with Grant are how well he holds done the point of attack on D and if he has gotten any better as a shooter. I think something some people were not seeing for a while last year was how elf was not fighting through screens. Essentially our defense was breaking down so fast that it was guys playing catch up as soon as the first pass was made. DJ sucked at it too, but he can pass and shoot so he was a more effective player for us.

Grant should show a huge improvement on defense and should be our best defender at pg that we have seen in years. That type of play can make the team a serious force on defense especially with bamba and isaac in, since they will be able to help less and focus on locking down their man.

Point is that if someone on offense can show improvement in their shooting, this team could be a real pain to score against and grant could be a pleasant surprise.

Thats a big if though. We just have not shown that we can shoot well over the course of the season. JI and AG need to step it up there and i will be praying that Grant does as well, even though its probably a long shot.

There’s no way either of those players are better than a healthy Payton, though. You could tell, looking at footage from last year, that Elf wasn’t moving quite right. Heck, there weren’t any complaints about EP’s defense early last season, before the hamstring injury and the knee tendinopathy that followed it.

There not many complaints because he didn’t even finish game 2 and then missed 8 games, in which we went 5-3.

So if you are saying that Elf was good for 1.5 games last season, and then he got hurt and was never the same - ok?

I would still say that his lack of effort on fighting through screens and ability display a consistent motor was something that plagued him his whole time on this roster. Add that to his poor shooting and again, this is why his only value was a mid 2nd round pick. And the kicker is that the FO took that trade instead of keeping him the rest of the season, because they just wanted to move on from the guy after seeing around 52 games.

Weltman takes some heat here for being slow in his evaluations. He sure did not need much time here to see that he had a PG who never developed.

And yes there is a “way” that DJ is better than a healthy Payton. And Grant could definitely be as well. Payton will be lucky to be an NBA basketball player in 2 seasons the way it is going for him right now. That’s just the reality of the situation, even if you can’t see it.

[PennytoShaq]

I think folks will be surprised by how little BIG actually sees the court together this season.

Yep, I can already see right now what the major problem that people are going to have with Clifford this year and thats going to be with the number of minutes that Bamba gets in general in especially with BIG. Its exactly why many of us didn't like the hire. Its similar to AG's first year with Vogel where for half the season Jeff green was averaging 5-10 more minutes than AG and would play every single meaningful minute in the 4th.

It's not necessarily about getting Bamba all these extra minutes year one or starting him, but with Clifford and Vuc here those meaningful minutes we want him to log next to AG and Isaac are going to be few and far between in my opinion and its going to frustrate the fanbase.

I don’t think that will be the case. The lineup has too much defensive potential and Clifford loves to play a defense that can switch and smother teams. I think he will want to rotate Grant and Bamba in fairly early. Why? I am reading what he is saying about wanting to get Bamba minutes, plus how impressed he is with Grants defense.

I dont see DJ suddenly being a great defender, and you are talking about a guy who played MCG over a first round pick because MCG can defend and Monk really struggled at it.

A lot of this is on Bamba. If he comes in and makes an impact in small minutes the first 10-15 games, I think his role expands the more he gets used to the grind. If he struggles, than yeah - we may not see the BIG lineup as much as we want, but the point is that a lot of this stuff is on the players executing and also staying healthy.

[J the Drafter]

There not many complaints because he didn’t even finish game 2 and then missed 8 games, in which we went 5-3.

The complaints didn’t start until midway through the season, during which time Payton did poorly at the things he’s good at. A lot of people took that as a general indictment of Payton’s play, instead of a presagement of what we now know was knee tendinopathy

I would still say that his lack of effort on fighting through screens and ability display a consistent motor was something that plagued him his whole time on this roster. Add that to his poor shooting and again, this is why his only value was a mid 2nd round pick.

Yes, I know he hasn’t been too good at navigating screens his career, but nobody had anything bad to say about it this year until his performance nosedived.

And the kicker is that the FO took that trade instead of keeping him the rest of the season, because they just wanted to move on from the guy after seeing around 52 games.

They probably wanted to move on for the same reason they moved on from Mario; they didn’t think those players were worth tying up the cap.

And yes there is a “way” that DJ is better than a healthy Payton. And Grant could definitely be as well. Payton will be lucky to be an NBA basketball player in 2 seasons the way it is going for him right now. That’s just the reality of the situation, even if you can’t see it.

No. There really isn’t.

[PennytoShaq]

There not many complaints because he didn’t even finish game 2 and then missed 8 games, in which we went 5-3.

The complaints didn’t start until midway through the season, during which time Payton did poorly at the things he’s good at. A lot of people took that as a general indictment of Payton’s play, instead of a presagement of what we now know was knee tendinopathy

I would still say that his lack of effort on fighting through screens and ability display a consistent motor was something that plagued him his whole time on this roster. Add that to his poor shooting and again, this is why his only value was a mid 2nd round pick.

Yes, I know he hasn’t been too good at navigating screens his career, but nobody had anything bad to say about it this year until his performance nosedived.

And the kicker is that the FO took that trade instead of keeping him the rest of the season, because they just wanted to move on from the guy after seeing around 52 games.

They probably wanted to move on for the same reason they moved on from Mario; they didn’t think those players were worth tying up the cap.

And yes there is a “way” that DJ is better than a healthy Payton. And Grant could definitely be as well. Payton will be lucky to be an NBA basketball player in 2 seasons the way it is going for him right now. That’s just the reality of the situation, even if you can’t see it.

No. There really isn’t.

Nothing you said here it actually true. It’s just your opinion with no factual basis, or statements that are not even correct:

- The complaints started before the season began - this is all easily found because it is an archived message board. People were criticizing his defense on screens before the season started as well.

- The Magic FO admits they are thin at PG. If Payton was as good as you think, it would have been a no brainer to keep the guy here. Especially since no one sees him as a player who would tie up the cap, considering his current contract is modest. Plus this is not like Mario at all. The Magic turned down Mario’s option so they did not have to commit to bring him back for his last year. Payton already was in his last year of his deal. Not really close to the same thing.

- Not sure what your last sentence meant, but many of us have already told you that DJ put up better numbers last year and you argued that “because injury” so I think you just are a lost cause at this point

[VFX]

I think folks will be surprised by how little BIG actually sees the court together this season.

Yep, I can already see right now what the major problem that people are going to have with Clifford this year and thats going to be with the number of minutes that Bamba gets in general in especially with BIG. Its exactly why many of us didn't like the hire. Its similar to AG's first year with Vogel where for half the season Jeff green was averaging 5-10 more minutes than AG and would play every single meaningful minute in the 4th.

It's not necessarily about getting Bamba all these extra minutes year one or starting him, but with Clifford and Vuc here those meaningful minutes we want him to log next to AG and Isaac are going to be few and far between in my opinion and its going to frustrate the fanbase.

Yep. That will be the biggest area of concern for most fans while Vuc is still on the team. I get easing Bamba into minutes as the season progresses, but he should be starting by he end of the season.

I’m sure fans are tired of Orlando drafting lottery picks and waiting multiple seasons before we see what they are capable of in a decent amount of in game minutes. Especially when players like Mitchell, Tatum, Jokic, Markannen, Ball, Brown, etc. are able to contribute on teams with way more talent than Orlando.

[J the Drafter]

There not many complaints because he didn’t even finish game 2 and then missed 8 games, in which we went 5-3.

The complaints didn’t start until midway through the season, during which time Payton did poorly at the things he’s good at. A lot of people took that as a general indictment of Payton’s play, instead of a presagement of what we now know was knee tendinopathy

I would still say that his lack of effort on fighting through screens and ability display a consistent motor was something that plagued him his whole time on this roster. Add that to his poor shooting and again, this is why his only value was a mid 2nd round pick.

Yes, I know he hasn’t been too good at navigating screens his career, but nobody had anything bad to say about it this year until his performance nosedived.

And the kicker is that the FO took that trade instead of keeping him the rest of the season, because they just wanted to move on from the guy after seeing around 52 games.

They probably wanted to move on for the same reason they moved on from Mario; they didn’t think those players were worth tying up the cap.

And yes there is a “way” that DJ is better than a healthy Payton. And Grant could definitely be as well. Payton will be lucky to be an NBA basketball player in 2 seasons the way it is going for him right now. That’s just the reality of the situation, even if you can’t see it.

No. There really isn’t.

Nothing you said here it actually true. It’s just your opinion with no factual basis, or statements that are not even correct:

- The complaints started before the season began - this is all easily found because it is an archived message board. People were criticizing his defense on screens before the season started as well.

No one was calling for Augustin to start, not we’re they happy we were forced to rely on him. Complaints about Payton only started this season halfway through, when his performance dropped.

[/quote]- The Magic FO admits they are thin at PG. If Payton was as good as you think, it would have been a no brainer to keep the guy here. Especially since no one sees him as a player who would tie up the cap, considering his current contract is modest. Plus this is not like Mario at all. The Magic turned down Mario’s option so they did not have to commit to bring him back for his last year. Payton already was in his last year of his deal. Not really close to the same thing.[/quote]
The FO certainly didn’t settle on a D.J./Jerian/Isaiah pg rotation because they were prioritizing talent.

- Not sure what your last sentence meant, but many of us have already told you that DJ put up better numbers last year and you argued that “because injury” so I think you just are a lost cause at this point

I’m only arguing “because injury” because he was injured. Just because a contingent of people here disliked him and didn’t bother putting any context to his performance last year doesn’t mean Payton wasn’t underperforming relative to his abilities.

[PennytoShaq]

Payton was not hurt for almost 80 games of the season. Thats simply not true.

Tons of people put context to his performance last year. There were plenty of threads about it and detailed discussions all season. Its been stated multiple times already.

[PrimeThyme]

I think folks will be surprised by how little BIG actually sees the court together this season.

Yep, I can already see right now what the major problem that people are going to have with Clifford this year and thats going to be with the number of minutes that Bamba gets in general in especially with BIG. Its exactly why many of us didn't like the hire. Its similar to AG's first year with Vogel where for half the season Jeff green was averaging 5-10 more minutes than AG and would play every single meaningful minute in the 4th.

It's not necessarily about getting Bamba all these extra minutes year one or starting him, but with Clifford and Vuc here those meaningful minutes we want him to log next to AG and Isaac are going to be few and far between in my opinion and its going to frustrate the fanbase.

Yep. That will be the biggest area of concern for most fans while Vuc is still on the team. I get easing Bamba into minutes as the season progresses, but he should be starting by he end of the season.

I’m sure fans are tired of Orlando drafting lottery picks and waiting multiple seasons before we see what they are capable of in a decent amount of in game minutes. Especially when players like Mitchell, Tatum, Jokic, Markannen, Ball, Brown, etc. are able to contribute on teams with way more talent than Orlando.

Not only the chance to contribute, but they were able to take their bumps and gain confidence out on the floor. Its like how Frank treated Mario year one. Maybe instead of sitting him on the bench for the rest of the season after only letting him play in 9 games, we could have allowed him to gain confidence and get consistent minutes and play through some of his struggles early on and seen him contribute like he did when he finally got those minutes last year.

The same can be said for Monk with Clifford last year. The kid was only given 12 mpg and was on a short leash the entire season. But the last 15 games or so when his minutes essentially doubled he averaged 13 ppg on 38 3pt fg% which was all significant improvements from his numbers early in the season when he couldn't find consistent minutes and take those bumps.

I just despise this "Well, if Bamba plays poorly during the start of the season he doesn't deserve those minutes" mentality that some posters here have. Like did we just not win 25 games last year? We should have zero issues with giving Bamba consistent minutes with AG and Isaac even if it comes at the expense of some wins. Thats the problem with the Clifford hire, similar to how it was with Vogel, now there is this expectation that we have to maximize all the wins we can out of this roster and our focus just shouldn't be there yet. It should be on the development of BIG.

[J the Drafter]

Payton was not hurt for almost 80 games of the season. Thats simply not true.

Tons of people put context to his performance last year. There were plenty of threads about it and detailed discussions all season. Its been stated multiple times already.

Dogpiling him because he was playing poorly does not equate to putting his performance in context. It’s just using a bad stretch to justify previous criticisms. And he clearly wasn’t moving right from what I saw.

[pepe1991]

Pls. For love of the basketball.
Stop talking about Payton.
Dude cut his hair, had whole summer to get better and goes in first preseason game and shoots 2-10 with 0-3 for 3 and 0-1 from FT line.
Guy simply isn't good at playing basketball at NBA starters level and that's fine for even him.
Just give it up.

How many evidence do you need to figure he is not good player?

Key reason what holds Payton back is his lack of talent combined with poor effort.