Official Spec Thread: Heart and Hustle Magic 2.0

[yoyojw17]

On a smaller acquisition level..... Garrison Mathews is a player i would actually love to get on this team. He just plays the right way and gives so much effort!

[jvdas]

Watch on YouTube

for all the negativity get some good feelings back!

[Xatticus]

Whether a this-or-that trade is too-much is the wrong persepective for me. What is the right perspective is to ask, is this a core of a future winning roster:

Suggs/Fultz
Brown/Hampton
F-Wagner
Isaac/M-Wagner
Carter/Bamba

For me, it is. It is balanced and deep. And it is about as good as management can hope for given current assets.

To me, this is absolutely not a core capable of winning anything significant, no.

"Better than we have right now" can be true and also be not good enough at the same time. The goal isn't to be better than they are right now because they're intentionally bad right now. So they're going to improve over time no matter what. The goal is to build a team capable of winning significantly, deep playoff runs.

Could that core make the playoffs? Maybe. But four of the nine guys listed are not positive contributors and at least 2-3 of them have significant injury concerns.

And if the Magic ride with this core and don't win immediately, the clock is ticking on Brown's departure as he's a UFA in just two years.

For me Orlando needs to get to mediocre to then get too good. These are steps. What I do like about the above 9 is that there is a clear path to 35+ wins, and development to get to 50. But that's the Indiana Pacers of old. How that roster can be further improved my be difficult, given that its purpose is based on balance. Any changes unbalance by definition.


Anyhow, there needs to be a point where the Magic roster is not 80% composed of PGs and PFs.
PG minutes in: Anthony, Suggs, Fultz, Carter-Williams, Hampton, Mulder, and Moore
PF minutes in: Isaac, Carter, Okeke, F-Wagner, M-Wagner

That cannot continue going in to next season.


..
..

That's really not our problem. We don't have any natural PGs and the only natural PF on the roster is Isaac.

Suggs might get there at some point, but everyone else only really fits the bill at the defensive end. Wagner is the closest thing we have to a floor general.

We are starting a pair of centers. We had Bamba and Lopez on the floor together last night. This is damning evidence that we don't have a healthy four on the roster. Chuma is logging most of his minutes at the four, but he just doesn't have the size for the matchups he keeps getting.

[nicnac215]

To me, this is absolutely not a core capable of winning anything significant, no.

"Better than we have right now" can be true and also be not good enough at the same time. The goal isn't to be better than they are right now because they're intentionally bad right now. So they're going to improve over time no matter what. The goal is to build a team capable of winning significantly, deep playoff runs.

Could that core make the playoffs? Maybe. But four of the nine guys listed are not positive contributors and at least 2-3 of them have significant injury concerns.

And if the Magic ride with this core and don't win immediately, the clock is ticking on Brown's departure as he's a UFA in just two years.

For me Orlando needs to get to mediocre to then get too good. These are steps. What I do like about the above 9 is that there is a clear path to 35+ wins, and development to get to 50. But that's the Indiana Pacers of old. How that roster can be further improved my be difficult, given that its purpose is based on balance. Any changes unbalance by definition.


Anyhow, there needs to be a point where the Magic roster is not 80% composed of PGs and PFs.
PG minutes in: Anthony, Suggs, Fultz, Carter-Williams, Hampton, Mulder, and Moore
PF minutes in: Isaac, Carter, Okeke, F-Wagner, M-Wagner

That cannot continue going in to next season.


..
..

That's really not our problem. We don't have any natural PGs and the only natural PF on the roster is Isaac.

Suggs might get there at some point, but everyone else only really fits the bill at the defensive end. Wagner is the closest thing we have to a floor general.

We are starting a pair of centers. We had Bamba and Lopez on the floor together last night. This is damning evidence that we don't have a healthy four on the roster. Chuma is logging most of his minutes at the four, but he just doesn't have the size for the matchups he keeps getting.

We don’t have a natural pg? Wtf do you think Fultz is?

[Xatticus]

For me Orlando needs to get to mediocre to then get too good. These are steps. What I do like about the above 9 is that there is a clear path to 35+ wins, and development to get to 50. But that's the Indiana Pacers of old. How that roster can be further improved my be difficult, given that its purpose is based on balance. Any changes unbalance by definition.


Anyhow, there needs to be a point where the Magic roster is not 80% composed of PGs and PFs.
PG minutes in: Anthony, Suggs, Fultz, Carter-Williams, Hampton, Mulder, and Moore
PF minutes in: Isaac, Carter, Okeke, F-Wagner, M-Wagner

That cannot continue going in to next season.


..
..

That's really not our problem. We don't have any natural PGs and the only natural PF on the roster is Isaac.

Suggs might get there at some point, but everyone else only really fits the bill at the defensive end. Wagner is the closest thing we have to a floor general.

We are starting a pair of centers. We had Bamba and Lopez on the floor together last night. This is damning evidence that we don't have a healthy four on the roster. Chuma is logging most of his minutes at the four, but he just doesn't have the size for the matchups he keeps getting.

We don’t have a natural pg? Wtf do you think Fultz is?

He's a ball-dominant scorer that lost the ability to shoot. He doesn't read the floor well. He just uses his tools and skills to get into the paint. Passing is what he does when he runs out of steam on his way to the basket. If your flow chart is really basic, then you aren't a point guard.

[drsd]

He's a ball-dominant scorer that lost the ability to shoot. He doesn't read the floor well. He just uses his tools and skills to get into the paint. Passing is what he does when he runs out of steam on his way to the basket. If your flow chart is really basic, then you aren't a point guard.

If you are arguing for a distributing PG, that is not were the league is since Steph Curry started jacking threes at a high volume.

Outside of Chris Paul and Mike Conley, who is the next-gen Zoomer here? Dejounte Murray and LaMelo Ball ???


..

[pepe1991]

He's a ball-dominant scorer that lost the ability to shoot. He doesn't read the floor well. He just uses his tools and skills to get into the paint. Passing is what he does when he runs out of steam on his way to the basket. If your flow chart is really basic, then you aren't a point guard.

If you are arguing for a distributing PG, that is not were the league is since Steph Curry started jacking threes at a high volume.

Outside of Chris Paul and Mike Conley, who is the next-gen Zoomer here? Dejounte Murray and LaMelo Ball ???


..

You can do both tho. Ja Morant moves ball and helps offense for example. Other is Garland.
I agree with Xat that Magic don't have playmakers, rather just ball dominant scorers in Fultz & Cole.

As for some other young PGs who control offense, i think Haliburton is excellent ( i think Fox also is very good)

[drsd]

You can do both tho. Ja Morant moves ball and helps offense for example. Other is Garland.
I agree with Xat that Magic don't have playmakers, rather just ball dominant scorers in Fultz & Cole.

As for some other young PGs who control offense, i think Haliburton is excellent ( i think Fox also is very good)

Well: for me it's Suggs or bust. There is no real path forward for Orlando without him as a top-10 PG in the NBA.


..

[Xatticus]

He's a ball-dominant scorer that lost the ability to shoot. He doesn't read the floor well. He just uses his tools and skills to get into the paint. Passing is what he does when he runs out of steam on his way to the basket. If your flow chart is really basic, then you aren't a point guard.

If you are arguing for a distributing PG, that is not were the league is since Steph Curry started jacking threes at a high volume.

Outside of Chris Paul and Mike Conley, who is the next-gen Zoomer here? Dejounte Murray and LaMelo Ball ???


..

Well... I'd be the first to tell you that you are what you defend, so I'm working under the pretense that a point guard is a specific role at the offensive end because that's what I believe we are talking about here.

It's basically someone that can read and react at the second level. It's not someone that drives to create their own. It's someone that knows how to get to spots to manipulate help defenders and that can then read the weaknesses in defense that they have created by moving those defenders. I think we are seeing the early stages of this from Franz. He has thrown a couple gorgeous skip passes this season on pick-and-rolls when the weakside corner defender flashed in to defend the pocket pass. It's been forever since we have had a guy that could see and make that pass. When you get the timing right on that pass, it's a wide open corner three. A facilitator doesn't drive to get their own. That just happens occasionally when the help defense doesn't show up.

It's really not about assists. Assists are a really flawed stat because the pass that unlocks the defense often doesn't result in an assist. You can stat hunt for assists. Vucevic never piled up assists, but he was our best passer/ball mover for quite a long time.

[yoyojw17]

He's a ball-dominant scorer that lost the ability to shoot. He doesn't read the floor well. He just uses his tools and skills to get into the paint. Passing is what he does when he runs out of steam on his way to the basket. If your flow chart is really basic, then you aren't a point guard.

If you are arguing for a distributing PG, that is not were the league is since Steph Curry started jacking threes at a high volume.

Outside of Chris Paul and Mike Conley, who is the next-gen Zoomer here? Dejounte Murray and LaMelo Ball ???


..

You can do both tho. Ja Morant moves ball and helps offense for example. Other is Garland.
I agree with Xat that Magic don't have playmakers, rather just ball dominant scorers in Fultz & Cole.

As for some other young PGs who control offense, i think Haliburton is excellent ( i think Fox also is very good)

I think that Fultz has shown himself to be capable of being a playmaker in comparison to any of our options on the team. He orchestrates and moves pieces around pretty well. We could see more of it as time goes by and at the beginning of last season he was picking even more steam.... but then.... Injuries come up.

[zaymon]

He's a ball-dominant scorer that lost the ability to shoot. He doesn't read the floor well. He just uses his tools and skills to get into the paint. Passing is what he does when he runs out of steam on his way to the basket. If your flow chart is really basic, then you aren't a point guard.

If you are arguing for a distributing PG, that is not were the league is since Steph Curry started jacking threes at a high volume.

Outside of Chris Paul and Mike Conley, who is the next-gen Zoomer here? Dejounte Murray and LaMelo Ball ???


..

Well... I'd be the first to tell you that you are what you defend, so I'm working under the pretense that a point guard is a specific role at the offensive end because that's what I believe we are talking about here.

It's basically someone that can read and react at the second level. It's not someone that drives to create their own. It's someone that knows how to get to spots to manipulate help defenders and that can then read the weaknesses in defense that they have created by moving those defenders. I think we are seeing the early stages of this from Franz. He has thrown a couple gorgeous skip passes this season on pick-and-rolls when the weakside corner defender flashed in to defend the pocket pass. It's been forever since we have had a guy that could see and make that pass. When you get the timing right on that pass, it's a wide open corner three. A facilitator doesn't drive to get their own. That just happens occasionally when the help defense doesn't show up.

It's really not about assists. Assists are a really flawed stat because the pass that unlocks the defense often doesn't result in an assist. You can stat hunt for assists. Vucevic never piled up assists, but he was our best passer/ball mover for quite a long time.

Thats a really quality post. So many people talk about playing the right way but doesnt know what it means. Thats why Doncic enhances offense without being super efficient with his scoring.
I dont know why people think Fultz is some kind of brilliant passer. His reads were not that great.
I think Wagner will have huge jump next year after studying nba game. I dont see any other rookie with his combination of tools and reading the game on the fly.

[ROballer]

Hi. Lakers fan here coming in peace.

You guys wouldn't happen to give us Bamba for two minimum guys and a couple of 2nd's, would you?


Joking aside, you can check this thread for the luls.

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=2145759&p=95351394#p95351394

Lakers forum is dying, lots of people have given up because of guys like this. There are a few terrible posters who are having a field day with their ridiculous takes on everything.
Beware of posting though, I got a warning for putting him in his place. Guy reported me.

[fendilim]

He's a ball-dominant scorer that lost the ability to shoot. He doesn't read the floor well. He just uses his tools and skills to get into the paint. Passing is what he does when he runs out of steam on his way to the basket. If your flow chart is really basic, then you aren't a point guard.

If you are arguing for a distributing PG, that is not were the league is since Steph Curry started jacking threes at a high volume.

Outside of Chris Paul and Mike Conley, who is the next-gen Zoomer here? Dejounte Murray and LaMelo Ball ???


..

You know any player now is quite useless if they can’t shoot? Especially if you are a guard. You need to be truly elite on something to compensate for that lack of shooting.

[J the Drafter]

Well... I'd be the first to tell you that you are what you defend, so I'm working under the pretense that a point guard is a specific role at the offensive end because that's what I believe we are talking about here.

It's basically someone that can read and react at the second level. It's not someone that drives to create their own. It's someone that knows how to get to spots to manipulate help defenders and that can then read the weaknesses in defense that they have created by moving those defenders. I think we are seeing the early stages of this from Franz. He has thrown a couple gorgeous skip passes this season on pick-and-rolls when the weakside corner defender flashed in to defend the pocket pass. It's been forever since we have had a guy that could see and make that pass. When you get the timing right on that pass, it's a wide open corner three. A facilitator doesn't drive to get their own. That just happens occasionally when the help defense doesn't show up.

It's really not about assists. Assists are a really flawed stat because the pass that unlocks the defense often doesn't result in an assist. You can stat hunt for assists. Vucevic never piled up assists, but he was our best passer/ball mover for quite a long time.

Scoring ability is still an important trait for playmakers to have; part of attacking the second level of defense is recognizing when the best shot available is your own, and the more scoring ability a playmaker has the more pressure they put on the defense. After all, classic ball-handling playmakers can make passes that lead to baskets because they’ve put themselves in a position to score. (This excludes standstill playmakers like Jokic who can hit cutters racing to the rim, obviously, but even Jokic uses the threat of individual scoring to to create passing opportunities as well as standing at the top of the arc.)

[basketballRob]

Delete

[jezzerinho]

It's basically someone that can read and react at the second level. It's not someone that drives to create their own. It's someone that knows how to get to spots to manipulate help defenders and that can then read the weaknesses in defense that they have created by moving those defenders. I think we are seeing the early stages of this from Franz. He has thrown a couple gorgeous skip passes this season on pick-and-rolls when the weakside corner defender flashed in to defend the pocket pass. It's been forever since we have had a guy that could see and make that pass. When you get the timing right on that pass, it's a wide open corner three. A facilitator doesn't drive to get their own. That just happens occasionally when the help defense doesn't show up.

It's really not about assists. Assists are a really flawed stat because the pass that unlocks the defense often doesn't result in an assist. You can stat hunt for assists. Vucevic never piled up assists, but he was our best passer/ball mover for quite a long time.

Totally agree on assists. Plus a guy can throw a defence-splitting beauty and the receiver miss the easy layup. Measuring the value of a play by one player based upon the ability of another player to complete a subsequent action will always be flawed.

It works for some evaluations but doesn't tell half the story of who is a good passer on your team.

[LDNMagic90]

I'd be surprised if we were to get a 1st, but it'll likely be a heavily protected one or a late 1st.

Read on Twitter

[drsd]

I'd be surprised if we were to get a 1st, but it'll likely be a heavily protected one or a late 1st.

Read on Twitter

Serge Ibaka has played very poorly for the Clippers and something around a Magic 2nd and Ross for a Ibaka and Clippers 1st works. A more substantial trade could include Bamba, if the Magic has given up on him.

[pepe1991]

How many teams can get Ross , would have usage of Ross and have or are willing to give up pick for Ross?
[color=#FF0000]Nets don't have first round picks for ages.
Bulls don't need that type of player ( have White, need PF and backup C)
Bucks don't need that sort of player
Heat don't need that type of player[/color]
76ers have pick but don't have anything that can trade for him to match salary

West:
Warriors- don't need him
Suns- Dario Saric and filler? That's best they can offer ( no first round pick)
Jazz have Clarkson in role of chucker.

So basically... Maybe Clippers, maybe Lakers, and maybe Nuggets.
That's pretty much it.

Magic can ask for top 3 pick, that doesn't mean they will get it. Most contenders don't own their future pick in 2022 draft. Down the line, i see zero value in Gordon type trades where we get some random 2028 pick and some underdeveloped bench wormer and broken player.

Ross is bit too expensive (14,5M) for role he fills ( chucker), getting worst and worst as shooter and adding nothing to a team when his shot is off. Most teams who are contenders are very top heavy and rest of roster is normally made of low cost vets. You look team like Denver, who could be interested, and only possible trade is Monte Morris+ two rookie scale guys ( Bol, Nnaji) ,and it's simply too high cost to pay for services of Ross from their POV.
Blazers are desparete for some trades, but again, they can't just give up Nance because they need him, and in same time there is nothing else they can add but him to even up salary.

Every team with any sense of logic will find addiotional $5M and make that sort of deal for Jeremy Grant , who is proven to be good role player on Nuggets on smaller role. Than role dice on bench player of 5-23 team.

[drsd]

So basically... Maybe Clippers, maybe Lakers, and maybe Nuggets.
That's pretty much it.

The Clippers make a lot of sense for me. My first thought is Ross, Orlando's 2022 SRP for Ibaka and the next available Clippers FRP - top 15 protected.

But this takes the Clippers even further over the tax. If LAC is being honest with itself, it will accept that Marcus Morris has negative value as a starter. In that, if there is a straight cash dump, then Ross and the TPE for Morris and Ibaka helps LA financially. Orlando could add its 2022 SRP, as Orlando seems to not value such picks and LAC will need cheap depth moving forward.