Official Summer 2024 Magic Free Agency and Trade Ideas Thread 3.0

[tiderulz]

Houston's achilles heel isn't Segun, it's Green and to lesser degree Smith and potentially Amen.
Green sucks on defense and just hurts offense with poor BBIQ & bad shot selection ( looks like worst version of Lavine ).
.

Counting stats are nice but not sure he is "Ime" type of center. The youngins all have fatal flaws.

Green = athletic pure scoring SG that can't shoot anymore and may just be Jordan Poole, bad defense
Amen = does everything on the court but unable to shoot. Probably has the highest upside if he can just be respectable from three.
Jabari = most solid "all around" for the modern NBA, still only 20, inconsistent in his offense and skinny still
Sengun = mini-Jokic level type of offensive hub but not stretching the floor and really bad defense
Whitmore = probably the most gifted on offense, but at what cost if he can't pass

Eason is probably the best in terms of doing his role perfectly and providing impact in terms of his usage.. but injured.

Rockets are intriguing because they're all young, but they all can't eat. Just like old Magic teams with too many mouths to feed. If they all buy into a role and sacrifice a bit, sure.. but then you have FVV and Dillon and people are going to get squeezed out.

Tari only played 22 games so it's hard to tell.

But look at rest of a group :

net rating:
Segun +0,3
Green -3,1
Jabari -1,9
Thompson -3,2


Win share per 48
Segun .162
Thompson .107
Green .037
Jabari .106


BPM
Segun 4,8
Green -2,4
Jabari -0,6
Thompson 1

Literally, by just not playing any of Green-Jabari- Thompson Houston would have been much better team. Those players are just negative across a board in everything.

Shaq yesterday compared Alp to Pau Gasol.


And , imo, his "terrible defense" is overblown. They are 6th best defense and they play Green at SG.



If i'm Houston GM my first move was trading Green for whoever. Guy is definition of black hole. Like, i would literally consider playing 4 on 5 instad of playnig Green.

In past month Green actual numbers:
14 points a game , 3,8 assists - on 15 shots & 2,5 turnovers
37% FG, 22% for 3, 70% FTs
During all this his actual plus minus ( 11 games) is -61


What's his actual basketball strenght? Not shooting, not playmaking, God -not defense, not off ball movment. Literally nothing. From time to time he can maybe, sometimes self create open look ? Cool. Give me Gary Harris on 45 games over Green on 82, i'll play fat fan at SG in other 37.

It's mindblowing how terrible that guy is. And he is so out of touch and delusional that he got upset when Houston considered benching him.
Who is out there trading for him tho? If he does not figure out things in Houston such is: playing at least watchable defense, make wide open shots, not clash on defenders, not going for suicide dunks for no reason, finishing around rim without acrobatic BS that isn't needed where execlly he will land and have any sucess? G league? China?

It's painful to figure your top 4 pick has Jordan Clarkson ceiling and his floor is - Nick Young without 3% accuracy. But for sake of Alp, lesser degree Smith, you have to kick him out of roster. He is cancer.

He is "offensive specialist" who tends to suck on defense and makes defense worst by just existing?

We talked how bad he was on opening night against us, in past month he had 4 ( out of 11) games worst than that.

i just remember all the talk pre-draft of trading the farm to get Jaylen. we dodged a bullet there.

[pepe1991]

Houston's achilles heel isn't Segun, it's Green and to lesser degree Smith and potentially Amen.
Green sucks on defense and just hurts offense with poor BBIQ & bad shot selection ( looks like worst version of Lavine ).

Smith is in year two and still looks like meh prospect. Very onedimensional. Everything i feared about him turned to be true to this point. He is okey spot up shooter with nothing else to offer.

Amen Thompson... won't be too harsh on him since he is rookie but he does not look nor plays like playmaker.
If he can't playmake, what was purpose of drafting 6'7 player that can't shoot ?

If you draft 3 top 5 picks in lottery and non of them look good, it's just poor drafting and you have nobody else to blame but you.


Smith's saving grace is that he compliments Segun well. If only he can actually do SOMETHING off ball but stand in corner like he is 41 years old vet.


Seguns is one of 8 players to average +20 ppg, +8 rpg, + 4 apg.

Others are: Jokic, Giannis, Luka, Tatum,Randle, Adebayo and Barnes. All allstars but him. If he was on East he would have been allstar this year. It's just competition that is stiffer on West.

yes, but even you have said that scoring is up and 20 ppg isnt what it used to be. his defense is bad and his game is old school. in the playoffs (if they ever make it), he wouldnt have as much room to work with when the game slows down and not put up nearly as much. he would still battle for rebounds and points, but not score as much.

Yea but 20 ppg players on 60% TS with crafty passing, who are 7 feet tall and just 21 years old don't grow on trees, and even if he is "just" Domas Sabonis type, he is still best player they have. And they have to work from there.


In general most of players we here talk about, who are 19-23, have zero playoff experience so we have no clue how execlly somebody would look like.

[AaronB]

Ok well I have a totally different view. I think Franz effort on defense is where it needs to be. Maybe we could get a consensus from other people unless this brand new revolutionary metric was invented to judge a players effort lol.

For someone who doesn’t give effort it’s pretty impressive he leads the team in defensive win shares and has a better defensive rating then Goga, Mo (even though he plays more against second units), Suggs, Banchero, and WCJ

Franz talked about it in a podcast with Redick. He even admitted having the need to develop his “killer instincts” because European game and NBA game is different.

This was very evident since his first two years. He tend to be passive in some games and has a tendency to defer to teammates.

He needs to develop this to be an all-star. Otherwise, he’ll be just a high end role player.

Ok but… This guy did not say Franz was passive he said he was taking games off then pivoted to Franz is lacking consistent effort. Huge difference between that and passivity. Lack of effort says he is being lazy and defers because he doesn’t want to do the work. Does that sound like Franz’s problem? He could be more of an alpha I agree with you and him. I however think it’s patently ridiculous to question any aspect of his effort.

"the guy" (being me) simply said said that Franz lacks his brother's (and JI's and Suggs') consistent effort. This is obvious to the most casual observer and I now see that, to a certain extent, Franz recognizes it and calls it being "passive".

Very few players in the league bring it every minute on the court like Moe, JI and Suggs. Very few. That the Magic actually have 3 on the roster that do is a viewing pleasure, although I think that opponents do not feel the same way.

[SOUL]

Very few players in the league bring it every minute on the court like Moe, JI and Suggs. Very few. That the Magic actually have 3 on the roster that do is a viewing pleasure, although I think that opponents do not feel the same way.

It will always come at the cost of something though, it's exhausting. Isaac's offense will always take a backseat because of his exertion on defense, Suggs as well, where I think his lower minutes is a result of being pretty involved on both ends in terms of movement, and Moe's motor is definitely reserved for the offensive end compared to defense. Franz plays a lot of minutes, works pretty hard on both defense and offense, so it makes a lot of sense why he's not going balls to the wall every play.

I think only a few guys really do that on both ends and make a real difference. I can really only think of Giannis.

Franz seems pretty aggressive most games when he's feeling it. I think his issue is just when he's taken out of his spots, he needs to find more creative ways to score which is a different thing altogether and means just having a deeper bag.

[eyriq]

What are the odds we resign Fultz?

[SOUL]

Yea but 20 ppg players on 60% TS with crafty passing, who are 7 feet tall and just 21 years old don't grow on trees, and even if he is "just" Domas Sabonis type, he is still best player they have. And they have to work from there.


In general most of players we here talk about, who are 19-23, have zero playoff experience so we have no clue how execlly somebody would look like.

Yeah don't get me wrong, I love Sengun and he is easily an All-Star talent, I just think he's harder to build around than people think. He's very low on the list of potential issues in terms of Houston players and future, but their current team makeup makes very specific archetypes vital for them to go after for a winning team.

NBA starters and young players with upside/talent is all about puzzle pieces and risk/reward in terms of usage.

When you have prime LeBrons, Giannis, Steph, Joker, SGA, Doncic, we know they deserve to be most usage on the team, that's a given.

When you have about 20-100 best player talent in the league, which Magic fall into too but a bit more defined in terms of pecking order since our offensive talent is pretty bad, then it's all about how easily the team can function and win with certain players at the helm.

FVV can easily take the most shots (3rd right now) or be 5th option if he really wanted. Sengun can be 1st or 3rd or 4th behind the chuckers Houston have, if he wanted to play more Pacers-era Sabonis role or something compared to having the most shots. Maybe they win more if he plays a specific role... like a Pau to their non-existent Kobe.

Someone like Ayo Dosunmu on the Bulls is now almost averaging 50/40 and his usage is climbing every month and still shooting great. Where did he start in the beginning of the year? Behind LaVine, DeMar, Vuc, Coby White.. he's still probably 4th option but who's to say he shouldn't be 1 or 2 moving forward factoring in Bulls being in treadmill status?

What I'm trying to say is, NBA now is more so a puzzle piece sort of league because most starters and young talented players can put up great stats when given the freedom to do so, but it's all about finding the perfect role for them and the team. Mikal looked like 27 ppg quasi 1st/solid 2nd option last year in 30 games, this year looks like he needs to slide back into 3rd/4th banana on a great team.

Long way of saying that I think outside of Jalen Green who is just broken, the Rockets have a bunch of guys they can thrust into a #1 sort of option role and theoretically all of them will put up numbers, but watching them versus OKC, who have these clear cut roles and talent, it was clear just how easily SGA and Jalen Williams carved them up as 1 and 2, while Chet seemlessly anchors that Swiss army knife role.

[HighPack]

What are the odds we resign Fultz?

I think his playoff performance will determinine that.

[zaymon]

What are the odds we resign Fultz?

5% ? I dont see any scenario where it makes sense for us. There will be much better players on the market who dont even earn as much as him. He is closer to out of the league than resigning here.

[eyriq]

What are the odds we resign Fultz?

5% ? I dont see any scenario where it makes sense for us. There will be much better players on the market who dont even earn as much as him. He is closer to out of the league than resigning here.

This is what I'm thinking. He's the poster child for our weaknesses, poor availability and shooting. The scenario where he's an option is if we want a veteran PG in the rotation, but if we want a veteran PG in the rotation we can go shopping externally. If we don't care, AB is right there to take the job full-time. The culture concerns are hopefully overstated.

[bigdogdylan5]

Franz talked about it in a podcast with Redick. He even admitted having the need to develop his “killer instincts” because European game and NBA game is different.

This was very evident since his first two years. He tend to be passive in some games and has a tendency to defer to teammates.

He needs to develop this to be an all-star. Otherwise, he’ll be just a high end role player.

Ok but… This guy did not say Franz was passive he said he was taking games off then pivoted to Franz is lacking consistent effort. Huge difference between that and passivity. Lack of effort says he is being lazy and defers because he doesn’t want to do the work. Does that sound like Franz’s problem? He could be more of an alpha I agree with you and him. I however think it’s patently ridiculous to question any aspect of his effort.

"the guy" (being me) simply said said that Franz lacks his brother's (and JI's and Suggs') consistent effort. This is obvious to the most casual observer and I now see that, to a certain extent, Franz recognizes it and calls it being "passive".

Very few players in the league bring it every minute on the court like Moe, JI and Suggs. Very few. That the Magic actually have 3 on the roster that do is a viewing pleasure, although I think that opponents do not feel the same way.

You keep saying obvious to most casual observers? Can you go put a poll up or something to prove your point?

Let’s dissect this a bit. So if Mo has this great effort that Franz needs. Why are his defensive metrics way worse than Franz despite playing against primarily second units? Why is his defensive rebounding percentage the worst of all our centers? Hell he is only 2.5% better than Franz and Franz is out at the perimeter the majority of the time. Do you think Mo gives more effort because has more and one and screams like an idiot? Oh my gosh he must care so much. Sorry don’t have a stat for that. His effort is so great that his defensive win shares is second to last of the players that get consistent minutes just behind the 36 year old that the team calls grandpa. I would argue outside of Suggs, Franz gives the most effort on guarding his man on the perimeter on defense. Isaac is better but he is more gifted.

So let’s turn to the offense. You are saying he doesn’t give enough consistent effort on offense. Ok then why is he ahead of some teams number one options in usage like Mikal Bridges, Scottie Barnes, Tyrese Halliburton in usage. If he wasn’t giving consistent effort wouldn’t you expect that to be much lower?

Maybe we just have different definitions of effort. When you say he takes games off or lacks consistent effort that to me signals he doesn’t want to do the work and he is lazy. Maybe for you that means he lacks aggression. I think those are two extremely different things.

[pepe1991]

Yea but 20 ppg players on 60% TS with crafty passing, who are 7 feet tall and just 21 years old don't grow on trees, and even if he is "just" Domas Sabonis type, he is still best player they have. And they have to work from there.


In general most of players we here talk about, who are 19-23, have zero playoff experience so we have no clue how execlly somebody would look like.

Yeah don't get me wrong, I love Sengun and he is easily an All-Star talent, I just think he's harder to build around than people think. He's very low on the list of potential issues in terms of Houston players and future, but their current team makeup makes very specific archetypes vital for them to go after for a winning team.

NBA starters and young players with upside/talent is all about puzzle pieces and risk/reward in terms of usage.

When you have prime LeBrons, Giannis, Steph, Joker, SGA, Doncic, we know they deserve to be most usage on the team, that's a given.

When you have about 20-100 best player talent in the league, which Magic fall into too but a bit more defined in terms of pecking order since our offensive talent is pretty bad, then it's all about how easily the team can function and win with certain players at the helm.

FVV can easily take the most shots (3rd right now) or be 5th option if he really wanted. Sengun can be 1st or 3rd or 4th behind the chuckers Houston have, if he wanted to play more Pacers-era Sabonis role or something compared to having the most shots. Maybe they win more if he plays a specific role... like a Pau to their non-existent Kobe.

Someone like Ayo Dosunmu on the Bulls is now almost averaging 50/40 and his usage is climbing every month and still shooting great. Where did he start in the beginning of the year? Behind LaVine, DeMar, Vuc, Coby White.. he's still probably 4th option but who's to say he shouldn't be 1 or 2 moving forward factoring in Bulls being in treadmill status?

What I'm trying to say is, NBA now is more so a puzzle piece sort of league because most starters and young talented players can put up great stats when given the freedom to do so, but it's all about finding the perfect role for them and the team. Mikal looked like 27 ppg quasi 1st/solid 2nd option last year in 30 games, this year looks like he needs to slide back into 3rd/4th banana on a great team.

Long way of saying that I think outside of Jalen Green who is just broken, the Rockets have a bunch of guys they can thrust into a #1 sort of option role and theoretically all of them will put up numbers, but watching them versus OKC, who have these clear cut roles and talent, it was clear just how easily SGA and Jalen Williams carved them up as 1 and 2, while Chet seemlessly anchors that Swiss army knife role.

I understand what are you trying to say and in general i agree with philosophy & idea that it's just given who gets most usage and that make outlook of a player, but in Houston's case Segun is so far away in terms of pure talent compared to other 3 lottery selected top 3 prospects they got that it's not even funny,

It starts to feel like Vuc- vs Gordon/Hezonja/Payton situation. Where player is so much better than guys you invested money into that it's almost surreal. You try to explain to yourself how is that possible, but it happened.

And where building roster around Segun is tricky, do they really have alternative?

Jabari showed zero star flashes, Thompson's whole purpose today is defense and his offense is virtually non existing other than transition dunks and Green is nightmare.

Where Thompson is a rookie and there is hope he can develop, he is literally same age as Segun so you can let doors open for Segun's ability to learn how to at least spot up and not suck for 3 in corner ,because you have to leave doors open for Thompson to learn how to do almost everything.


As far as FVV on Houston goes, i'm pretty sure they will trade him next year ( like 99,98%) . His contract is built in fashion where he is goner for sure.
He has team's option on 2025-26. Even if teams have no intentions of keeping him, they can use his $44M salary to dump.

Oh and they have unprotected Nets 2026 first round pick as asset. Maybe right way forward is get rid of FVV and hold to what they have?

I have no clue. All i know: somebody would have to pay me serious money to force me to watch Green on regular bases. I have no problem with players that are talentless. They just suck. Green has tools, but much like i don't know, Josh Smith, Rudy Gay, Monta Elise simply does not have required BBIQ to understand concept of team sport.

[MartinsIzAfraud]

What are the odds we resign Fultz?

30% ... and I think that's being nice.

[AaronB]

Ok but… This guy did not say Franz was passive he said he was taking games off then pivoted to Franz is lacking consistent effort. Huge difference between that and passivity. Lack of effort says he is being lazy and defers because he doesn’t want to do the work. Does that sound like Franz’s problem? He could be more of an alpha I agree with you and him. I however think it’s patently ridiculous to question any aspect of his effort.

"the guy" (being me) simply said said that Franz lacks his brother's (and JI's and Suggs') consistent effort. This is obvious to the most casual observer and I now see that, to a certain extent, Franz recognizes it and calls it being "passive".

Very few players in the league bring it every minute on the court like Moe, JI and Suggs. Very few. That the Magic actually have 3 on the roster that do is a viewing pleasure, although I think that opponents do not feel the same way.

You keep saying obvious to most casual observers? Can you go put a poll up or something to prove your point?

Let’s dissect this a bit. So if Mo has this great effort that Franz needs. Why are his defensive metrics way worse than Franz despite playing against primarily second units? Why is his defensive rebounding percentage the worst of all our centers? Hell he is only 2.5% better than Franz and Franz is out at the perimeter the majority of the time. Do you think Mo gives more effort because has more and one and screams like an idiot? Oh my gosh he must care so much. Sorry don’t have a stat for that. His effort is so great that his defensive win shares is second to last of the players that get consistent minutes just behind the 36 year old that the team calls grandpa. I would argue outside of Suggs, Franz gives the most effort on guarding his man on the perimeter on defense. Isaac is better but he is more gifted.

So let’s turn to the offense. You are saying he doesn’t give enough consistent effort on offense. Ok then why is he ahead of some teams number one options in usage like Mikal Bridges, Scottie Barnes, Tyrese Halliburton in usage. If he wasn’t giving consistent effort wouldn’t you expect that to be much lower?

Maybe we just have different definitions of effort. When you say he takes games off or lacks consistent effort that to me signals he doesn’t want to do the work and he is lazy. Maybe for you that means he lacks aggression. I think those are two extremely different things.

I refuse to have a long conversation with someone who can only see what they write and make no effort to understand what the other person is saying. CYa.

[bigdogdylan5]

What are the odds we resign Fultz?

The only way it even remotely makes sense is if he is willing to sign at vet min and be a back of the bench culture guy. That is coming from a guy people label as a big Fultz guy. Nowhere near some of the others, but regardless to this point in our rebuild imo it has made sense for us to see it play out and it did. He is actively harming our Paolo/Franz run offense. So I think would hope it’s 0% but maybe there is a 5% chance we bring him back on a minimum contract so will say that.

[Furinkazan]

What are the odds we resign Fultz?

30% ... and I think that's being nice.

wishfull thinking
Its about 90% and Im being generous ....giving us fans 10% chance/hope to finally see him gone

[MasterGMer]

Klay Thompson can be a real possibility for us. But the problem is who we don’t resign and who is out of our rotation. Markelle or Harris? Then how much is Klay willing to accept to come to Orlando.

Then, I might in the minority, but if Bucks failed again this year underachieving in the playoffs, something interesting is going to happen there. We will see.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Furinkazan]

Klay Thompson can be a real possibility for us. But the problem is who we don’t resign and who is out of our rotation. Markelle or Harris? Then how much is Klay willing to accept to come to Orlando.

Then, I might in the minority, but if Bucks failed again this year underachieving in the playoffs, something interesting is going to happen there. We will see.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

sure if you grossly overpay him and give him long contract...

he is only willing to take short one from Warriors so we would have to give him long one to make him interested

[Furinkazan]

What are the odds we resign Fultz?

I think his playoff performance will determinine that.

playoffs? we talking bout playoffs?

I know we are on a right path but come on dont jinx it...... dont count your chickens before they hatch

[Skybox]

"the guy" (being me) simply said said that Franz lacks his brother's (and JI's and Suggs') consistent effort. This is obvious to the most casual observer and I now see that, to a certain extent, Franz recognizes it and calls it being "passive".

Very few players in the league bring it every minute on the court like Moe, JI and Suggs. Very few. That the Magic actually have 3 on the roster that do is a viewing pleasure, although I think that opponents do not feel the same way.

You keep saying obvious to most casual observers? Can you go put a poll up or something to prove your point?

Let’s dissect this a bit. So if Mo has this great effort that Franz needs. Why are his defensive metrics way worse than Franz despite playing against primarily second units? Why is his defensive rebounding percentage the worst of all our centers? Hell he is only 2.5% better than Franz and Franz is out at the perimeter the majority of the time. Do you think Mo gives more effort because has more and one and screams like an idiot? Oh my gosh he must care so much. Sorry don’t have a stat for that. His effort is so great that his defensive win shares is second to last of the players that get consistent minutes just behind the 36 year old that the team calls grandpa. I would argue outside of Suggs, Franz gives the most effort on guarding his man on the perimeter on defense. Isaac is better but he is more gifted.

So let’s turn to the offense. You are saying he doesn’t give enough consistent effort on offense. Ok then why is he ahead of some teams number one options in usage like Mikal Bridges, Scottie Barnes, Tyrese Halliburton in usage. If he wasn’t giving consistent effort wouldn’t you expect that to be much lower?

Maybe we just have different definitions of effort. When you say he takes games off or lacks consistent effort that to me signals he doesn’t want to do the work and he is lazy. Maybe for you that means he lacks aggression. I think those are two extremely different things.

I refuse to have a long conversation with someone who can only see what they write and make no effort to understand what the other person is saying. CYa.

Too late…wrong thread anyway.

[HighPack]

What are the odds we resign Fultz?

I think his playoff performance will determinine that.

playoffs? we talking bout playoffs?

I know we are on a right path but come on dont jinx it...... dont count your chickens before they hatch

Come on man, I talked about Fultz, if no playoffs no more Kelle obviously. Yeah very small chance is there to no playoffs. Less than 1%. I'm optimist about it and I don't deal with chickens.