Official Spec Thread: I guess now's the time to blow this dumpster fire up and bask in the glow!

[Bergmaniac]

Did any of us actually want SVG to be fired?

Dwight did.

That he did... but anyone here?

Quite a few people IIRC, we weren't that good in his last 2 seasons and this always lead to some fans blaming the coach. And when it became known that Dwight wanted SVG fired, a lot of posters took Dwight's side and wanted SVG gone to improve the chance to keep Dwight.

[drsd]

Quite a few people IIRC, we weren't that good in his last 2 seasons and this always lead to some fans blaming the coach. And when it became known that Dwight wanted SVG fired, a lot of posters took Dwight's side and wanted SVG gone to improve the chance to keep Dwight.

I exactly remember the Dwightmare like this.


Here's the book on it:
Dwightmare: Dwight Howard, the Orlando Magic, and the Season of Dysfunction

[Popsicle1228]

Quite a few people IIRC, we weren't that good in his last 2 seasons and this always lead to some fans blaming the coach. And when it became known that Dwight wanted SVG fired, a lot of posters took Dwight's side and wanted SVG gone to improve the chance to keep Dwight.

I exactly remember the Dwightmare like this.


Here's the book on it:
Dwightmare: Dwight Howard, the Orlando Magic, and the Season of Dysfunction

The sad thing about this as that a decade later the franchise has still not recovered from the Dwightmare. I was full team SVG at the time as I figured the Magic had reached their peak with Dwight and it was time to move on. However, I never would have anticipated that in 2021 we would still be stuck in the rebuilding phase.

[p0peye]

As far sa I can remember, not many people had much to say against Stan. I personally loved the guy. He just weren't the kind of a coach that sticks with rebuilds, it doesn't suit him and his style of coaching is far from perfect for young lads we planned to bring.

On other hand, I find Cliff to be an excellent for that role and it is a pity we let him go back in 2012 and hired Vaughn instead. Dude wrecked early development years for Oladipo, Payton and AG, IMO.

[Def Swami]

I was upset that the team fired SVG and then Otis Smith resigned. I thought if anything, they would have fired Otis Smith.

[shadrock]

LOL, what else can they do?

They are playing G leaguer and guys they signed up few days ago

Players dont tank

What is so hard to understand?

And-1

Brazdeikis was signed on 2 May, and in game 1 he goes +18 in his plus/minus (he looked like cotton-white Flame)
Orlando started a rookie PG and had a G-leaguer play 30 minutes in backup.
A "project" two-year guard backed up the starting SG.
Bacon started.

Ross, Okeke, Carter-Williams, and Ennis were benched for injuries they could all play with.
There is nothing else management can do to Tank.

Coach and he players play to win. Now and always.


..

Yet other teams that arent us seem to outdo us in tanking late season every single time. Must just be a crazy run of bad luck right? Yeah that must be it.

[Blue_and_Whte]

LOL, what else can they do?

They are playing G leaguer and guys they signed up few days ago

Players dont tank

What is so hard to understand?

And-1

Brazdeikis was signed on 2 May, and in game 1 he goes +18 in his plus/minus (he looked like cotton-white Flame)
Orlando started a rookie PG and had a G-leaguer play 30 minutes in backup.
A "project" two-year guard backed up the starting SG.
Bacon started.

Ross, Okeke, Carter-Williams, and Ennis were benched for injuries they could all play with.
There is nothing else management can do to Tank.

Coach and he players play to win. Now and always.


..

Yet other teams that arent us seem to outdo us in tanking late season every single time. Must just be a crazy run of bad luck right? Yeah that must be it.

There is literally nothing else they can do outside of recruiting a bunch of old women to play. Players don't lose games on purpose, so they might win some.

[CZ Eddie]

I was upset that the team fired SVG and then Otis Smith resigned. I thought if anything, they would have fired Otis Smith.

I was in that camp with you.
SVG stay, Otis go, that's what most of us wanted.
Otis just made some dumb trades/moves back then.
Not saying he didn't do anything good. But... ugh.
I checked up on him just now. Looks like his time as our GM didn't exactly make his career advance anywhere.
He's actually off the grid now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otis_Smith_(basketball)

[PigsEatHam]

LOL, what else can they do?

They are playing G leaguer and guys they signed up few days ago

Players dont tank

What is so hard to understand?

And-1

Brazdeikis was signed on 2 May, and in game 1 he goes +18 in his plus/minus (he looked like cotton-white Flame)
Orlando started a rookie PG and had a G-leaguer play 30 minutes in backup.
A "project" two-year guard backed up the starting SG.
Bacon started.

Ross, Okeke, Carter-Williams, and Ennis were benched for injuries they could all play with.
There is nothing else management can do to Tank.

Coach and he players play to win. Now and always.


..

Yet other teams that arent us seem to outdo us in tanking late season every single time. Must just be a crazy run of bad luck right? Yeah that must be it.

I completely understand the frustration of winning meaningless games down the stretch that will harm our draft position. That said, we'll have to see how the final few games shake out, but Orlando is currently tied for the third fewest wins in the league this season, so technically only Detroit and Houston are doing better jobs than us at tanking at the moment. Not to mention six of our wins were in the first eight games of the season before Markelle went down for the year. We've been absolutely terrible since. I hope unwanted, fluke wins don't come back to bite us, but it's hard to argue that management isn't trying their best to tank this year.

[pepe1991]

Tuesday saw the publication of Built to Lose: How the NBA's Tanking Era Changed the League Forever, a new book from Bleacher Report scribe Jake Fischer.

Overall, I found Fischer's book deeply reported--he conducted more than 300 interviews, on- and off-the-record--and I believe anyone who follows the NBA closely will enjoy the behind-the-scenes look at some of the tanking teams from the mid-2010s.

Some Orlando Magic parts

In the 2014/15 season, Jacque Vaughn's decision to make Elfrid Payton, a rookie, the team's starting point guard, rather than sticking with Victor Oladipo at the position, backfired. Fischer reports it created "noticeable tension within the Magic locker room" and quotes Magic forward Channing Frye as saying, "If you pick him and that's your guy, you make the hierarchy, put the ball in his hands, let's go. Pick the guy, everyone else will fall in." Further, despite signing Frye as a free agent to provide veteran leadership, the locker room lacked a direction. "I think that was the main issue with us," Orlando center Nikola Vučević tells Fischer. Ultimately, in Fischer's telling, promoting Payton to the starting lineup cost Vaughn the Magic's locker room and lead to his midseason ouster.

---

In the same season, current Magic guard Michael Carter-Williams was coming off Rookie of the Year honors with the Philadelphia 76ers, yet general manager Sam Hinkie still considered trading him. One reason: his errant shooting. "Carter-Williams presented the most difficult Sixers player to rebound for after practice," says Fischer. "You had no idea in the world where that ball was going to miss at," an anonymous Sixers assistant tells him.
In the end, Hinkie would indeed trade Carter-Williams, sending him to the Milwaukee Bucks. At the time, Milwaukee's head personnel man was John Hammond, who now serves as a deputy to Jeff Weltman in Orlando. "We had this vision of this big, long team and liked Michael's length," Hammond tells Fischer.

Hammond may have changed teams, but not his philosophy: with him in the front office, the team has prioritized size and length in building its roster, not only with Carter-Williams but also Jonathan Isaac and Mo Bamba.

---

The Magic changed coaches again--from Vaughn to interim James Borrego, and then from Borrego to Scott Skiles--to start the 2015/16 season, but similar issues plagued the team. General manager Rob Hennigan re-signed Tobias Harris to a rich contract, only to trade him two days before the deadline. The question as to whether it was Skiles or Hennigan who made the final call to trade Harris hung over the team. Moreover, the players Orlando received in return for Harris never integrated into the team. Fischer says the "some young players" left on the team "hardly spoke" with Brandon Jennings or Ersan İlyasova. For his part, Ilyasova says his Orlando stay was miserable. "I wish it never happened."

[drsd]

There is literally nothing else they can do outside of recruiting a bunch of old women to play. Players don't lose games on purpose, so they might win some.

Let's exclude that the Magic is starting a rookie and playing another major minutes. Or that thtere is only one starting-quality player getting any minutes right now. I want to examine four Magicians .

Over the last three games:
Sindarius Thornwell has AVERAGED 19 mpg.
Chasson Randle has AVERAGED 24 mpg.
Ignas Brazdeikis has AVERAGED 30 mpg.
Donta Hall has AVERAGED 16 mpg.

There is little argument that the Magic has maxed out its TANK capacity.


..

[drsd]

I completely understand the frustration of winning meaningless games down the stretch that will harm our draft position. That said, we'll have to see how the final few games shake out, but Orlando is currently tied for the third fewest wins in the league this season, so technically only Detroit and Houston are doing better jobs than us at tanking at the moment. Not to mention six of our wins were in the first eight games of the season before Markelle went down for the year. We've been absolutely terrible since. I hope unwanted, fluke wins don't come back to bite us, but it's hard to argue that management isn't trying their best to tank this year.

[GelbeWand09]

There is literally nothing else they can do outside of recruiting a bunch of old women to play. Players don't lose games on purpose, so they might win some.

Let's exclude that the Magic is starting a rookie and playing another major minutes. Or that thtere is only one starting-quality player getting any minutes right now. I want to examine four Magicians .

Over the last three games:
Sindarius Thornwell has AVERAGED 19 mpg.
Chasson Randle has AVERAGED 24 mpg.
Ignas Brazdeikis has AVERAGED 30 mpg.
Donta Hall has AVERAGED 16 mpg.

There is little argument that the Magic has maxed out its TANK capacity.


..

No not all

1st They play Vuc, AG & Evan in the games before the trade deadline ---> 2 wins vs. The No. 2 in the west & No.1 in the east
2nd They doesnt waive Porter, a throw in expiring contract ---> Porter got a big role in 2 wins over his 3 games
3rd They brought back Ennis for a tank battle (probably the most consistent player after the trade & 62 TS%) --> Ennis wins us the tank battle with a team high +20 next player was +5 ---> WeHam realize they **** up ---> Ennis back on the injured list
4th They waive Franks, a player with no offense at all & no risk he gonna hurt the tank
5th. They bring in Wagner & Brazdeikis instead. Wagner wins us the Memphis game & Brazdeikis is a big factor & team high +18 in the next tank battle vs Detroit. Instead of playing Franks or Hall at PF & lose probably every game they tried to get cute.

Saying they coudnt have done anything else is just flat out wrong. They made more mistakes than Detroit, OKC & Cleveland & this could be the difference between the top 4 or drafting 6-9th.

[drsd]

No not all

1st They play Vuc, AG & Evan in the games before the trade deadline ---> 2 wins vs. The No. 2 in the west & No.1 in the east
2nd They doesnt waive Porter, a throw in expiring contract ---> Porter got a big role in 2 wins over his 3 games
3rd They brought back Ennis for a tank battle (probably the most consistent player after the trade & 62 TS%) --> Ennis wins us the tank battle with a team high +20 next player was +5 ---> WeHam realize they **** up ---> Ennis back on the injured list
4th They waive Franks, a player with no offense at all & no risk he gonna hurt the tank
5th. They bring in Wagner & Brazdeikis instead. Wagner wins us the Memphis game & Brazdeikis is a big factor & team high +18 in the next tank battle vs Detroit. Instead of playing Franks or Hall at PF & lose probably every game they tried to get cute.

Saying they coudnt have done anything else is just flat out wrong. They made more mistakes than Detroit, OKC & Cleveland & this could be the difference between the top 4 or drafting 6-9th.

When those early post-trade wins came, the Magic was only about 4 games out of a play-in slot. The team needed to assess if there was going to be a big turn-around with the current roster. But then, more injuries piled on.

The Magic did not go into power-tank mode until about a month ago. I would say it was the 7 April loss to Washington where Orlando realised that the team was not competitive with other play-in hopefuls. Until then, the goal was to win games; rightfully so in my opinion.

[KillMonger]

half-azzed tanks never work....should've went full bore the minute we traded away our best players

[VFX]

half-azzed tanks never work....should've went full bore the minute we traded away our best players

Orlando will never learn.

[SOUL]

I think we're bitching at very specific things and kinda holding our past of doing dumb things against this season.

Since Feb 23rd we're 8-30.

Houston has 5 wins since that time.
Detroit has 12 wins.
OKC has 9 wins.
Cleveland has 11.
Minnesota has 15.

I know people want us to go 0-38 but some people have to stop living in la la land and not bring in random signings of scrubs that exploded as "reasons why we won". We had no business winning a few of those games (PHX, MEM, BK) where scrubs got hot or the NO game where all of their top players were injured. That's 4 games that could've easily swung and we could be 4-42 in the same span.

Saying they coudnt have done anything else is just flat out wrong. They made more mistakes than Detroit, OKC & Cleveland & this could be the difference between the top 4 or drafting 6-9th.

If you're being nitpicky, yeah, but since late Feb we've been the 2nd worst team. They've done their job in sucking. We can argue little things with hindsight but we've been just as bad if not worse than all of these other tanking teams.

[GelbeWand09]

I think we're bitching at very specific things and kinda holding our past of doing dumb things against this season.

Since Feb 23rd we're 8-30.

Houston has 5 wins since that time.
Detroit has 12 wins.
OKC has 9 wins.
Cleveland has 11.
Minnesota has 15.

I know people want us to go 0-38 but some people have to stop living in la la land and not bring in random explosions from scrubs as "reasons why we won". We had no business winning a few of those games (PHX, MEM, BK) where scrubs got hot or the NO game where all of their top players were injured. That's 4 games that could've easily swung and we could be 4-42 in the same span.

Saying they coudnt have done anything else is just flat out wrong. They made more mistakes than Detroit, OKC & Cleveland & this could be the difference between the top 4 or drafting 6-9th.

If you're being nitpicky, yeah, but since late Feb we've been the 2nd worst team. They've done their job in sucking. We can argue little things with hindsight but we've been just as bad if not worse than all of these other tanking teams.

I'm the last who brings up the Doncic draft all the time. The only times i mention that is when one specific user celebrates end of season wins again, while at the same time insults all pro tank posters.

OKC was a .500% team with SGA. SGA is maybe better than everyone we can draft in the top 4 in this draft. Check his impact stats. Most underrated player in the leaque. So it doesnt matter how many games they won with him.

Minnesota was bad because of injuries. Those players are back now & they have no interest in tanking. They said 2 weeks ago already, they wont sit anyone. They need to know what they have.

Detroit built a team to get a top 5 pick from the beginning. They had a much wider range for errors (wins) than us. Cavs kinda the same, plus they are just flat out bad (there expected losses are even higher than there current record)

TBH i dont care for anything we did before the last 10 games much. Most teams, except OKC, won pointless games because of vets but we were 2nd & found the perfect tank roster. We were 0-6 with only blowouts when we shut the vets down. Cole & RJ were the expected tank commanders & the 10 day / 2 way scrubs doesnt hurt the tank. They just had to do what they have done almost 3 years in a row. Sit on your hands & do nothing for 10 games

Sorry, there are no ''random explosions'' Soul, you know i agree most of the time with you but not on that. Ennis impact on that game was no surprise at all. I even wrote on the Detroit board some days before. When we keep our OKC approach, we probably wont win more than 1 game anymore but if we bring back Ennis or MCW we gonna win 3-4.
The problem arent the players we added. The problem are the players they replaced. Hall or Franks just wont go off. Wagner always could score. You think we win those games if we play one of those guys at PF instead of him? Again 10 games before the end of the season. You see the other teams adding potential offensive threats? I mean i wont be surprised if he scores 20+ in one of the Sixers games too & ''helps'' us win another one.

I can understand why so many people think we have done enough, because in 98% of NBA history it would be enough. But teams just tanked harder this year. Most teams doesnt played any player older than 22-24 over many games. I think this is pretty unique. Thats the reason i dont judge the decision on past ''tank wars'', i judge them on what happened this year. Even in 2018, Dallas played Barnes 40 mpg til the 3rd last game of the season. Dirk played 2 of the last 4 games. Its just different this year.

When the draft is over i'm not gonna talk much about it anymore like i havent brought up the Doncic draft. I dont live in the past, but right now, i wont accept the '''We have done everything we could'' mantra at all.

[VFX]

I think we're bitching at very specific things and kinda holding our past of doing dumb things against this season.

Since Feb 23rd we're 8-30.

Houston has 5 wins since that time.
Detroit has 12 wins.
OKC has 9 wins.
Cleveland has 11.
Minnesota has 15.

I know people want us to go 0-38 but some people have to stop living in la la land and not bring in random explosions from scrubs as "reasons why we won". We had no business winning a few of those games (PHX, MEM, BK) where scrubs got hot or the NO game where all of their top players were injured. That's 4 games that could've easily swung and we could be 4-42 in the same span.

Saying they coudnt have done anything else is just flat out wrong. They made more mistakes than Detroit, OKC & Cleveland & this could be the difference between the top 4 or drafting 6-9th.

If you're being nitpicky, yeah, but since late Feb we've been the 2nd worst team. They've done their job in sucking. We can argue little things with hindsight but we've been just as bad if not worse than all of these other tanking teams.

I'm the last who brings up the Doncic draft all the time. The only times i mention that is when one specific user celebrates end of season wins again, while at the same time insults all pro tank posters.

OKC was a .500% team with SGA. SGA is maybe better than everyone we can draft in the top 4 in this draft. Check his impact stats. Most underrated player in the leaque. So it doesnt matter how many games they won with him.

Minnesota was bad because of injuries. Those players are back now & they have no interest in tanking. They said 2 weeks ago already, they wont sit anyone. They need to know what they have.

Detroit built a team to get a top 5 pick from the beginning. They had a much wider range for errors (wins) than us. Cavs kinda the same, plus they are just flat out bad (there expected losses are even higher than there current record)

TBH i dont care for anything we did before the last 10 games much. Most teams, except OKC, won pointless games because of vets but we were 2nd & found the perfect tank roster. We were 0-6 with only blowouts when we shut the vets down. Cole & RJ were the expected tank commanders & the 10 day / 2 way scrubs doesnt hurt the tank. They just had to do what they have done almost 3 years in a row. Sit on your hands & do nothing for 10 games

Sorry, there are no ''random explosions'' Soul, you know i agree most of the time with you but not on that. Ennis impact on that game was no surprise at all. I even wrote on the Detroit board some days before. When we keep our OKC approach, we probably wont win more than 1 game anymore but if we bring back Ennis or MCW we gonna win 3-4.
The problem arent the players we added. The problem are the players they replaced. Hall or Franks just wont go off. Wagner always could score. You think we win those games if we play one of those guys at PF instead of him? Again 10 games before the end of the season. You see the other teams adding potential offensive threats? I mean i wont be surprised if he scores 20+ in one of the Sixers games too & ''helps'' us win another one.

I can understand why so many people think we have done enough, because in 98% of NBA history it would be enough. But teams just tanked harder this year. Most teams doesnt played any player older than 22-24 over many games. I think this is pretty unique. Thats the reason i dont judge the decision on past ''tank wars'', i judge them on what happened this year. Even in 2018, Dallas played Barnes 40 mpg til the 3rd last game of the season. Dirk played 2 of the last 4 games. Its just different this year.

When the draft is over i'm not gonna talk much about it anymore like i havent brought up the Doncic draft. I dont live in the past, but right now, i wont accept the '''We have done everything we could'' mantra at all.

The bottom line is that everyone realistically knew that Orlando wasn’t accomplishing anything when Isaac went down. When Fultz went down January 6th it was writing on the wall. They still decided to play everyone up until the trade deadline on March 25th. Like clockwork Orlando were on top of the standings with a hot start before injuries and reality set in.

It’s true that this year is much different with the level of tanking around the league that’s been happening. OKC, Detroit, and Houston have been consistently worse than Orlando for a longer stretch. Their rosters weren’t even good prior to injuries. Why? Because they were managed that way.

The damning thing is that Orlando will definitely not be in the same position next season when Isaac and Fultz return. You commit to a tank before the season starts, not halfway through after 5 teams have a solid lead. But it is what it is. We are now at the mercy of the lotto. Listening to some podcasts about draft rankings and the consensus is always the host laughing and saying “man Orlando really needs one of these wings at the top”...
Which is true, because Orlando is inept offensively and Ennis / Bacon should never be starting for an NBA team. Drafting another questionable shooter or a big solves none of Orlando’s problems.

[KillMonger]

If the teams that tanked better than us are rewarded then yeah....we didn't do enough and it bit us in the azz.....again....not going to lie....i did question why they brought Ennis back....why did they feel the need to get Wagner and brazdekus when Franks and Hall were doing the job just fine? Ennis/Wagner/Brazdekus are probably responsible for a few wins that might cost us a top 4/5 selection