Markelle Fultz

[eyriq]

Your take that rookies suck is an over simplification and wrong.

For one, I only think rookie PGs universally suck. Rookie bigs are often positive contributors. And rookie wings can have uses (Orlando started Lee in all the NBA finals games, for example).

Since Magic Johnson, name me three PGs that had a positive impact to their team as a rookie. I expect you might struggle to name one.
I'll do it for you: Derrick Rose.

Being an NBA PG is the hardest job in sports. A rookie might show flashes of promise, but the assist / TO numbers doom rookie PGs to always, always be negative players for team performance.

The reason to play a rookie PG big minutes is to get them aware of the speed of the game, and pile on losses for lotto balls. The problem for Black is that Orlando is not horrible (and is not trying to lose games).

Fultz, Anthony, and Suggs are all better PG options for the 2023/24 season over Black. That is not a disputable point.

Will Black be All-World from 2025/26, I really hope so! (Heck: Rose was MVP in his third season; let's aim for that bar for Black; OK?).

Here are 30. I could keep going too.

Code: Select all

Player                | Pos  | Tm    | Year  | PTS  | TRB  | AST  | PER  | WS
----------------------|------|-------|------|------|------|------|------|------
Chris Paul            | PG   | NOK   | 2006 | 16.1 | 5.1  | 7.8  | 22.1 | 10.4
Ben Simmons           | PG   | PHI   | 2018 | 15.8 | 8.1  | 8.2  | 20.0 | 9.2
Anfernee Hardaway     | PG   | ORL   | 1994 | 16.0 | 5.4  | 6.6  | 17.4 | 7.1
Allen Iverson         | PG   | PHI   | 1997 | 23.5 | 4.1  | 7.5  | 18.0 | 4.1
Steve Francis         | PG   | HOU   | 2000 | 18.0 | 5.3  | 6.6  | 18.4 | 6.4
Mark Jackson          | PG   | NYK   | 1988 | 13.6 | 4.8  | 10.6 | 15.7 | 7.6
Stephen Curry         | PG   | GSW   | 2010 | 17.5 | 4.5  | 5.9  | 16.3 | 4.7
Kyrie Irving          | PG   | CLE   | 2012 | 18.5 | 3.7  | 5.4  | 21.4 | 4.1
Brevin Knight         | PG   | CLE   | 1998 | 9.0  | 3.2  | 8.2  | 17.1 | 8.4
Damon Stoudamire      | PG   | TOR   | 1996 | 19.0 | 4.0  | 9.3  | 16.7 | 4.3
John Wall             | PG   | WAS   | 2011 | 16.4 | 4.6  | 8.3  | 15.8 | 2.2
Damian Lillard        | PG   | POR   | 2013 | 19.0 | 3.1  | 6.5  | 16.4 | 5.8
Michael Carter-Williams| PG| PHI   | 2014 | 16.7 | 6.2  | 6.3  | 15.5 | 1.3
Trae Young            | PG   | ATL   | 2019 | 19.1 | 3.7  | 8.1  | 17.0 | 3.3
Dwyane Wade           | PG   | MIA   | 2004 | 16.2 | 4.0  | 4.5  | 17.6 | 4.6
LaMelo Ball           | PG   | CHO   | 2021 | 15.7 | 5.9  | 6.1  | 17.5 | 2.8
Tim Hardaway          | PG   | GSW   | 1990 | 14.7 | 3.9  | 8.7  | 16.0 | 3.3
Ja Morant             | PG   | MEM   | 2020 | 17.8 | 3.9  | 7.3  | 17.4 | 3.8
Sherman Douglas       | PG   | MIA   | 1990 | 14.3 | 2.5  | 7.6  | 17.0 | 4.4
Derrick Rose          | PG   | CHI   | 2009 | 16.8 | 3.9  | 6.3  | 16.0 | 4.9
Brandon Jennings      | PG   | MIL   | 2010 | 15.5 | 3.4  | 5.7  | 14.5 | 4.2
Jason Kidd            | PG   | DAL   | 1995 | 11.7 | 5.4  | 7.7  | 15.1 | 3.2

[VFX]

Still yet to be seen if this a contract year for Fultz September 30 is the day he is eligible for an extension. Will be very telling what the front office does.

What does this mean?

Are you insinuating that the FO is going to let Fultz walk out the door for little to zero return?

There is a zero percent chance he isn’t resigned - it’s just for how much.

You never miss a Fultz post do you?

Ok calm down big dog dylan

[eyriq]

Interesting sidenote to that, the criteria was that the rookie was among their team's 3 best players as a rookie.

Orlando has had 6 rookies all-time that meet that criteria.

Shaquille O'Neal
Anfernee Hardaway
Dwight Howard
Paolo Banchero
Victor Oladipo
Franz Wagner

I don't think Black will be one of our 3 best players next season (that honor went to Fultz, with WCJ right there), but I do think he'll be amongst the top 6.

[Knightro]

I don't think Black will be one of our 3 best players next season (that honor went to Fultz, with WCJ right there), but I do think he'll be amongst the top 6.

0.0%

[SOUL]

I don't think Black will be one of our 3 best players next season (that honor went to Fultz, with WCJ right there), but I do think he'll be amongst the top 6.

0.0%

At least eyriq has been constant in that opinion though.. if it happens then maybe you should place some bets on some Sportsbooks

[T-Cat]

Read on Twitter

[zaymon]

Problem with Fultz is not how he plays in practice but how he plays under pressure. He just crumbles under constant stress. Same thing last season, the second we were knocked out of play in race he started to shoot 3s of the dribble. We shouldnt extend him even if he plays well. Maybe he can do it for one year but the risk is huge he will break after he gets his money.

[SOUL]

Problem with Fultz is not how he plays in practice but how he plays under pressure. He just crumbles under constant stress. Same thing last season, the second we were knocked out of play in race he started to shoot 3s of the dribble.

I don't think this is true if you're talking about important moments. Other than his turnovers which seemed to ramp up in those moments, I feel like he was constantly pretty solid in the clutch when it came to scoring or defensive plays/rebounding.

We shouldnt extend him even if he plays well.

I feel like many posters feel like this but won't admit it, so at least you've said it. I'm still undecided but open to either decision depending on his play and the improvement (or not) of others.

[basketballRob]

Interesting sidenote to that, the criteria was that the rookie was among their team's 3 best players as a rookie.

Orlando has had 6 rookies all-time that meet that criteria.

Shaquille O'Neal
Anfernee Hardaway
Dwight Howard
Paolo Banchero
Victor Oladipo
Franz Wagner

I don't think Black will be one of our 3 best players next season (that honor went to Fultz, with WCJ right there), but I do think he'll be amongst the top 6.

That's a lot of bad teams they were on. I'm assuming we're going to be a 500 team this season.

He probably plays the same amount of minutes AG did his rookie season. 17 mpg in 41 games.

[davey_wavy]

Read on Twitter

Is this Kelle with short hair and a normal 3 point release? Where did this come from?

[pepe1991]

Interesting sidenote to that, the criteria was that the rookie was among their team's 3 best players as a rookie.

Orlando has had 6 rookies all-time that meet that criteria.

Shaquille O'Neal
Anfernee Hardaway
Dwight Howard
Paolo Banchero
Victor Oladipo
Franz Wagner

I don't think Black will be one of our 3 best players next season (that honor went to Fultz, with WCJ right there), but I do think he'll be amongst the top 6.

Oladipo 100% wasn't top 3 player on his rookie team.

Matter of fact vast majority of data tells you he wan't even top 5.

Much like it was case with other rookies, and most of rookies you posted on that cumulative data, it's just case of rookie padding numbers on worthles team.
Flagship example of it is MCW and his "contribution "to 19-63 record.

There were games where 76ers were trashed by 40+ points and he would still log 30+ mpg in them. Other than stat padding, what a hell starter has to do on court , while his team is down by 50 ?


The thing is, you can manifacture rookie into "star"that he isn't by just giving him green light to jack shots. Tyreke Evans was first since Lebron to average 20-5-5 and in reality he would just padd stats and play until his boxes in stat sheet were filled enough to meet that "first since Lebron" criteria.

At the end of a day, rookies almost always are negative contributors.

[Bensational]

Problem with Fultz is not how he plays in practice but how he plays under pressure. He just crumbles under constant stress. Same thing last season, the second we were knocked out of play in race he started to shoot 3s of the dribble. We shouldnt extend him even if he plays well. Maybe he can do it for one year but the risk is huge he will break after he gets his money.

That's not what the stats say. Per NBA.com's clutch stats, he was our 2nd highest scorer, 2nd in FT's drawn, 2nd in efficiency. So when the pressure was on, he stepped up - and contrary to being a hinderance he was actually one of our top producers. And all of that was without 3's.

Wendell's scoring numbers are equally strong and extremely efficient, but lower in volume. Add in Suggs at SG, and we are going to be very tough for teams to beat when the pressure is turned up.

[VFX]

Interesting sidenote to that, the criteria was that the rookie was among their team's 3 best players as a rookie.

Orlando has had 6 rookies all-time that meet that criteria.

Shaquille O'Neal
Anfernee Hardaway
Dwight Howard
Paolo Banchero
Victor Oladipo
Franz Wagner

I don't think Black will be one of our 3 best players next season (that honor went to Fultz, with WCJ right there), but I do think he'll be amongst the top 6.

Oladipo 100% wasn't top 3 player on his rookie team.

Matter of fact vast majority of data tells you he wan't even top 5.

Much like it was case with other rookies, and most of rookies you posted on that cumulative data, it's just case of rookie padding numbers on worthles team.
Flagship example of it is MCW and his "contribution "to 19-63 record.

There were games where 76ers were trashed by 40+ points and he would still log 30+ mpg in them. Other than stat padding, what a hell starter has to do on court , while his team is down by 50 ?


The thing is, you can manifacture rookie into "star"that he isn't by just giving him green light to jack shots. Tyreke Evans was first since Lebron to average 20-5-5 and in reality he would just padd stats and play until his boxes in stat sheet were filled enough to meet that "first since Lebron" criteria.

At the end of a day, rookies almost always are negative contributors.

While true, teams do this to boost value of guys putting up decent numbers on bad teams. This happens all the time. Philly traded everyone as they kept drafting to eventually land on Embiid.

This is essentially what you would love to do with lotto picks after 1 season of data. Hell, probably even before drafting anyone based on college or high school data because rookies are trash and we need to watch Vucevic for 10 years of fringe playoff misses instead of finding the next Paolo or Franz.

It doesn’t negate the fact that there are also guys that take more than a rookie contract to become something. Like the majority of players…

I don’t know who this is fooling really. Nobody believed anyone from those tanking 76er teams were allstars, so it’s kind of a non-argument. MCW was traded for a late first from LA in a three team trade comprised of nobodies. They cut bait early unlike someone like Bamba who was drafted into a bench role to be moved for cash considerations with no playing time.

[drsd]

Problem with Fultz is not how he plays in practice but how he plays under pressure. He just crumbles under constant stress. Same thing last season, the second we were knocked out of play in race he started to shoot 3s of the dribble. We shouldnt extend him even if he plays well. Maybe he can do it for one year but the risk is huge he will break after he gets his money.

That's not what the stats say. Per NBA.com's clutch stats, he was our 2nd highest scorer, 2nd in FT's drawn, 2nd in efficiency. So when the pressure was on, he stepped up - and contrary to being a hinderance he was actually one of our top producers. And all of that was without 3's.

Wendell's scoring numbers are equally strong and extremely efficient, but lower in volume. Add in Suggs at SG, and we are going to be very tough for teams to beat when the pressure is turned up.

I am trying to convince myself this depth chart can win 41+ games:

Fultz/Anthony/Black
Suggs/G-Harris/Howard
F-Wagner/Ingles/Houstan
Banchero/Isaac/Okeke
Carter/M-Wagner/Bitadze

My inner-Homer wonders if Suggs has a three ball and Isaac returns fully to form: could this be a 50 win roster? (rhetoric)

My point, I am excited to see Fultz lead a team that should be predicted to win many of the games scheduled.

I am quite happy with a Fultz/Anthony/Black depth chart at PG. There is a lot to like about it.



GO MAGIC

[zaymon]

Problem with Fultz is not how he plays in practice but how he plays under pressure. He just crumbles under constant stress. Same thing last season, the second we were knocked out of play in race he started to shoot 3s of the dribble. We shouldnt extend him even if he plays well. Maybe he can do it for one year but the risk is huge he will break after he gets his money.

That's not what the stats say. Per NBA.com's clutch stats, he was our 2nd highest scorer, 2nd in FT's drawn, 2nd in efficiency. So when the pressure was on, he stepped up - and contrary to being a hinderance he was actually one of our top producers. And all of that was without 3's.

Wendell's scoring numbers are equally strong and extremely efficient, but lower in volume. Add in Suggs at SG, and we are going to be very tough for teams to beat when the pressure is turned up.

Hard to argue with the stats thats why i wrote constant stress. I want to see him out of his comfort zone. He was ok settling for midrangers even tough team needed him to shoot 3s.

[pepe1991]

Fultz for Brogdon straight up

Man can dream...

[Residual-Heat]

Fultz for Brogdon straight up

Man can dream...

Brogdon is a good fit. Doesnt really need to be straight up, the Magic can add a couple small incentives like 2nd round pick, Okeke, Houstan ect.

[basketballRob]

Brogdon did well last season against the other team's second units. Markelle played 90% of his minutes against starters.

I'm not saying Fultz is better. I do think Brogdon is a little overrated, tho.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

[BadMofoPimp]

Your take that rookies suck is an over simplification and wrong.

For one, I only think rookie PGs universally suck. Rookie bigs are often positive contributors. And rookie wings can have uses (Orlando started Lee in all the NBA finals games, for example).

Since Magic Johnson, name me three PGs that had a positive impact to their team as a rookie. I expect you might struggle to name one.
I'll do it for you: Derrick Rose.

Being an NBA PG is the hardest job in sports. A rookie might show flashes of promise, but the assist / TO numbers doom rookie PGs to always, always be negative players for team performance.

The reason to play a rookie PG big minutes is to get them aware of the speed of the game, and pile on losses for lotto balls. The problem for Black is that Orlando is not horrible (and is not trying to lose games).

Fultz, Anthony, and Suggs are all better PG options for the 2023/24 season over Black. That is not a disputable point.

Will Black be All-World from 2025/26, I really hope so! (Heck: Rose was MVP in his third season; let's aim for that bar for Black; OK?).

Here are 30. I could keep going too.

Code: Select all

Player                | Pos  | Tm    | Year  | PTS  | TRB  | AST  | PER  | WS
----------------------|------|-------|------|------|------|------|------|------
Chris Paul            | PG   | NOK   | 2006 | 16.1 | 5.1  | 7.8  | 22.1 | 10.4
Ben Simmons           | PG   | PHI   | 2018 | 15.8 | 8.1  | 8.2  | 20.0 | 9.2
Anfernee Hardaway     | PG   | ORL   | 1994 | 16.0 | 5.4  | 6.6  | 17.4 | 7.1
Allen Iverson         | PG   | PHI   | 1997 | 23.5 | 4.1  | 7.5  | 18.0 | 4.1
Steve Francis         | PG   | HOU   | 2000 | 18.0 | 5.3  | 6.6  | 18.4 | 6.4
Mark Jackson          | PG   | NYK   | 1988 | 13.6 | 4.8  | 10.6 | 15.7 | 7.6
Stephen Curry         | PG   | GSW   | 2010 | 17.5 | 4.5  | 5.9  | 16.3 | 4.7
Kyrie Irving          | PG   | CLE   | 2012 | 18.5 | 3.7  | 5.4  | 21.4 | 4.1
Brevin Knight         | PG   | CLE   | 1998 | 9.0  | 3.2  | 8.2  | 17.1 | 8.4
Damon Stoudamire      | PG   | TOR   | 1996 | 19.0 | 4.0  | 9.3  | 16.7 | 4.3
John Wall             | PG   | WAS   | 2011 | 16.4 | 4.6  | 8.3  | 15.8 | 2.2
Damian Lillard        | PG   | POR   | 2013 | 19.0 | 3.1  | 6.5  | 16.4 | 5.8
Michael Carter-Williams| PG| PHI   | 2014 | 16.7 | 6.2  | 6.3  | 15.5 | 1.3
Trae Young            | PG   | ATL   | 2019 | 19.1 | 3.7  | 8.1  | 17.0 | 3.3
Dwyane Wade           | PG   | MIA   | 2004 | 16.2 | 4.0  | 4.5  | 17.6 | 4.6
LaMelo Ball           | PG   | CHO   | 2021 | 15.7 | 5.9  | 6.1  | 17.5 | 2.8
Tim Hardaway          | PG   | GSW   | 1990 | 14.7 | 3.9  | 8.7  | 16.0 | 3.3
Ja Morant             | PG   | MEM   | 2020 | 17.8 | 3.9  | 7.3  | 17.4 | 3.8
Sherman Douglas       | PG   | MIA   | 1990 | 14.3 | 2.5  | 7.6  | 17.0 | 4.4
Derrick Rose          | PG   | CHI   | 2009 | 16.8 | 3.9  | 6.3  | 16.0 | 4.9
Brandon Jennings      | PG   | MIL   | 2010 | 15.5 | 3.4  | 5.7  | 14.5 | 4.2
Jason Kidd            | PG   | DAL   | 1995 | 11.7 | 5.4  | 7.7  | 15.1 | 3.2

Isaiah "Zeke" Thomas from the Pistons days averaged 17ppg, 7.8apg 2.1spg his rookie season. His sophomore season, he won All Star Game MVP averaging 22.9ppg, 7.8apg and 2.5spg. Very underrated if not one of the best pg's of all time.

[fendilim]

Problem with Fultz is not how he plays in practice but how he plays under pressure. He just crumbles under constant stress. Same thing last season, the second we were knocked out of play in race he started to shoot 3s of the dribble. We shouldnt extend him even if he plays well. Maybe he can do it for one year but the risk is huge he will break after he gets his money.

That's not what the stats say. Per NBA.com's clutch stats, he was our 2nd highest scorer, 2nd in FT's drawn, 2nd in efficiency. So when the pressure was on, he stepped up - and contrary to being a hinderance he was actually one of our top producers. And all of that was without 3's.

Wendell's scoring numbers are equally strong and extremely efficient, but lower in volume. Add in Suggs at SG, and we are going to be very tough for teams to beat when the pressure is turned up.

Well, this is actually true especially during clutch moments. His usage is obviously going to be high because he is be useless without the ball. So this leads to really Fultz actually being the first option and not Paolo or Franz.