Official Speculation Thread ‘17-18’: XVIII: The Long Wait Continues

[OrlandoNed]

So do you suggest to just shoot threes and inside shots?

Yes. The league average of a mid-range shot is 40%.

Unless you're the Warriors who make an astronomically high number of them (48%) and can get value out of it. But they still only attempt an average number of them.

i see. So we should be playing the popular brand of basketball, rather than putting our players in a position to succeed? Ok.

Do you even know why teams play the popular brand of basketball? Because. It. Works.

[pepe1991]

Yes. The league average of a mid-range shot is 40%.

Unless you're the Warriors who make an astronomically high number of them (48%) and can get value out of it. But they still only attempt an average number of them.

i see. So we should be playing the popular brand of basketball, rather than putting our players in a position to succeed? Ok.

Do you even know why teams play the popular brand of basketball? Because. It. Works.

it's popular because it works.
Mindblowing concept i know

[Tarheel]

This one bad play is from a preseason game right? And not game 7 of the NBA finals.

Yes, but it's something that's been repeated season after season which is why its a concern. If it was the first time it was happening it wouldn't be.

Players only play 20ish minutes in a pre-season game and are supposed to be building habits. There's not really any excuse in my opinion not to try. Saying 'it doesn't matter, it's preseason' renders the whole concept of preseason pointless.

Also ill raise you one "huh?". Gordon wasnt running out to guard anyone least of all Simmons, he was caught in no mans land between DJ and JI as simmons sidestepped back to the top if the key...unguarded.
Vuc clearly didnt make proper contact with Embiid, and AG was doing nothing. Really that whole sequence was a team wide defensive breakdown, but of course guess who gets the blame.

Defensive breakdowns can be forgiven if they are accidental and not down to effort. Your starting center repeatedly being too lazy to even perform the most basic tasks can't (especially when you're only playing 20 minutes) IMO.

There was no-one except Embiid to box out on that play. Vuc was marking him and half-assed the box out, leading to him getting the putback. Not getting the rebound is on Vuc.

While this isnt the case with your particukzr post, Like I said earlier people are likely to keep bitching and magnify mistakes while ignoring all the positives of players they dont like then they'll obviously incessantly complain about it like little girls.

I've said in my critique of Vuc that I think he's a good player on the offensive end, despite not really fitting the modern NBA all that well. However I don't think it's 'complaining about it like a little girl' to expect your starting center (who is meant to be a leader) to try hard defensively. By not doing so he negates any positive effect he has offensively.

If anyone wonders why the quality of the game threads has gone down you can pretty much narrow it down to a handful of people.

You're calling people little girls and complaining about the quality of threads in the same post. People in glass houses and all that.

[fendilim]

Yes. The league average of a mid-range shot is 40%.

Unless you're the Warriors who make an astronomically high number of them (48%) and can get value out of it. But they still only attempt an average number of them.

i see. So we should be playing the popular brand of basketball, rather than putting our players in a position to succeed? Ok.

Do you even know why teams play the popular brand of basketball? Because. It. Works.

It will only work if you got players who are good at it.

When life gives you lemon, you make lemonade. Don't expect it to be orange juice.

[sChOlaRlY_Magi]

This one bad play is from a preseason game right? And not game 7 of the NBA finals.

Yes, but it's something that's been repeated season after season which is why its a concern. If it was the first time it was happening it wouldn't be.

Players only play 20ish minutes in a pre-season game and are supposed to be building habits. There's not really any excuse in my opinion not to try. Saying 'it doesn't matter, it's preseason' renders the whole concept of preseason pointless.

Also ill raise you one "huh?". Gordon wasnt running out to guard anyone least of all Simmons, he was caught in no mans land between DJ and JI as simmons sidestepped back to the top if the key...unguarded.
Vuc clearly didnt make proper contact with Embiid, and AG was doing nothing. Really that whole sequence was a team wide defensive breakdown, but of course guess who gets the blame.

Defensive breakdowns can be forgiven if they are accidental and not down to effort. Your starting center repeatedly being too lazy to even perform the most basic tasks can't (especially when you're only playing 20 minutes) IMO.

There was no-one except Embiid to box out on that play. Vuc was marking him and half-assed the box out, leading to him getting the putback. Not getting the rebound is on Vuc.

While this isnt the case with your particukzr post, Like I said earlier people are likely to keep bitching and magnify mistakes while ignoring all the positives of players they dont like then they'll obviously incessantly complain about it like little girls.

I've said in my critique of Vuc that I think he's a good player on the offensive end, despite not really fitting the modern NBA all that well. However I don't think it's 'complaining about it like a little girl' to expect your starting center (who is meant to be a leader) to try hard defensively. By not doing so he negates any positive effect he has offensively.

If anyone wonders why the quality of the game threads has gone down you can pretty much narrow it down to a handful of people.

You're calling people little girls and complaining about the quality of threads in the same post. People in glass houses and all that.

This times 1,000,000,000,000!

[PrimeThyme]

The poster saying that the quality of the game threads has gone down is the same one that was calling every poster a "Snowflake" for criticizing Vuc the other night. It blows my mind.

[OrlandoNed]

i see. So we should be playing the popular brand of basketball, rather than putting our players in a position to succeed? Ok.

Do you even know why teams play the popular brand of basketball? Because. It. Works.

It will only work if you got players who are good at it.

When life gives you lemon, you make lemonade. Don't expect it to be orange juice.

When you are in a competition of who has the best orange juice and you only have lemons, get rid of the lemons and find some oranges.

[drsd]

The quality in game threads has gone down because your guy gets called out all the time for his lazy plays. The fact that you and drsd can even say that play is on anyone besides Vuc is unreal lol. Defend him to the death bro.

Respectfully I think the narrative that i) this was a pre-season game and ii) that this was a team-defensive failure are both correct.

Considering, "Defend him to the death bro," OK I will do so.
Yes Vučević lost contact on this one play, but his game was quite OK overall. He had a game as a two-way player that had a net positive for the team in this game.
He had an incredible 0.87 points per minutes played, a truly amazing stat. He had 5 rebounds, 2 assists, and 2 blocks all without a TO. In contrast, Embiid in a similar shooting and scoring effort, was largely kept off the FT line, and was forced in to TOs. Really one can easily state that Vučević outplayed Embiid, and even if one wants to quibble, then it was a push at worst. In other words, Vučević had a good game.


..

[J the Drafter]

I was gonna say that Vuc seemed to get distracted from the box-out because he turned to protect the rim. It was a bad play, but I don’t think his effort was at fault here. (I also don’t think it was THAT bad a play.)

[fendilim]

Do you even know why teams play the popular brand of basketball? Because. It. Works.

It will only work if you got players who are good at it.

When life gives you lemon, you make lemonade. Don't expect it to be orange juice.

When you are in a competition of who has the best orange juice and you only have lemons, get rid of the lemons and find some oranges.

Yes, but that does not happen overnight.

[VFX]

Yes, you need the roster to play an efficient style of basketball.

No, Orlando doesn’t have a roster that is able to play efficiently.

Why? Management has failed to build a cohesive roster and has used inefficient players for the last 6 seasons. This has nothing to do with preseason. It’s been the trend for a while. This still hasn’t been addressed this past offseason.

Orlando Magic basketball will be boring and inefficient again this season until moves are made. That’s why people are talking about it on a message board. People complaining about “board quality” can get over it.

[PennytoShaq]

Yes, you need the roster to play an efficient style of basketball.

No, Orlando doesn’t have a roster that is able to play efficiently.

Why? Management has failed to build a cohesive roster and has used inefficient players for the last 6 seasons. This has nothing to do with preseason. It’s been the trend for a while. This still hasn’t been addressed this past offseason.

Orlando Magic basketball will be boring and inefficient again this season until moves are made. That’s why people are talking about it on a message board. People complaining about “board quality” can get over it.

Agree, but new management is not the old guard. So when you say 6 seasons, it’s a little unfair. These guys inherited this roster and it had no trade value when they got here. So it’s not like they could just clean house and get anything back to build with.

Instead I think the plan for them was to identify young guys to keep. The only one appears to be AG, and we have him on a good deal. I doubt we resign Vuc . The guys they have brought in have been on cheap and short deals, which is a nice change from the prior regime. They have also drafted the best guys they believed available. I think Bamba was a no brainer at 6 and they spent a lot of time with DSJ the draft before, so it’s not like they were not strongly considering him. Add AG, and even as a trade piece, I believe AG can get us a core player, so in my eyes the FO has 3/5 core players here after 1 year.

I also think they want to clean the roster out, but its not easy to do and also clear cap space. In other words, pointing fingers at them for Vuc still being here is pointless. I have asked more than once for any evidence that teams are asking for Vuc in a trade and we have none except the old Cousins rumor that was on Hennigan’s FO.

In other words, yes, the Magic will be boring until moves are made. No doubt about it. But saying that this FO has failed to build a cohesive roster is short sighted, imo. They kept an asset in AG, and kept him on a very tradable deal. Him and Isaac may very well work together, we do not know yet, so we can’t say it is not cohesive just yet.

I think 80% of the moves Weltman has made make complete sense. We can debate his second round picks and letting Hezonja go, but IMO he has drafted well so far in round 1 and has been solid in free agency (not overpaying or getting guys on long term deals). I also liked his move to get Mozgov and Grant here for Biz. I think Mozgov provides insurance if we move Vuc. Grant could end up being bad, but since he expires, I don’t mind it.

Briscoe could very well end up being a legit find for us like Birch was last year. And finally, I just like the energy, speed and effort these fringe guys play with that he has found.

I think if you can accept that there is one more year of this boring style of play, you will be much happier next season. And if I am wrong, feel free to roast me or bring up this post. But once Vuc is traded or expires, and suddenly our cap free again, plus we have the answer off how JI and AG look together, things are going to get a lot more fun to watch in Orlando.

This was way too long, sorry about that.

[VFX]

Yes, you need the roster to play an efficient style of basketball.

No, Orlando doesn’t have a roster that is able to play efficiently.

Why? Management has failed to build a cohesive roster and has used inefficient players for the last 6 seasons. This has nothing to do with preseason. It’s been the trend for a while. This still hasn’t been addressed this past offseason.

Orlando Magic basketball will be boring and inefficient again this season until moves are made. That’s why people are talking about it on a message board. People complaining about “board quality” can get over it.

Agree, but new management is not the old guard. So when you say 6 seasons, it’s a little unfair. These guys inherited this roster and it had no trade value when they got here. So it’s not like they could just clean house and get anything back to build with.

In other words, yes, the Magic will be boring until moves are made. No doubt about it. But saying that this FO has failed to build a cohesive roster is short sighted, imo. They kept an asset in AG, and kept him on a very tradable deal. Him and Isaac may very well work together, we do not know yet, so we can’t say it is not cohesive just yet.

I think if you can accept that there is one more year of this boring style of play, you will be much happier next season. And if I am wrong, feel free to roast me or bring up this post. But once Vuc is traded or expires, and suddenly our cap free again, plus we have the answer off how JI and AG look together, things are going to get a lot more fun to watch in Orlando.

We will see what this current management does to change this roster. They’ve decided to take a longer approach obviously by continuing to start 4/5 same players starting their second season in with Orlando. You and I don’t know what they were offered for specific players, but there has been very little movement on their end swapping bad contracts and letting the draft dictate their picks.

In other words, they haven’t been aggressive at all in shaping this roster outside of selecting tall athletes. Time will tell. Hopefully it doesn’t take another full season for them to make a significant move. We all would rather not watch Clifford squeeze wins and lose draft position again behind empty Vuc numbers. It was a big reason everyone hated Vogel and wouldn’t be smart to put Clifford in that position his first year here. By the sound of it, Clifford isn’t opposed to repeating this process and management shouldn’t allow it to happen if they are at all intelligent.

[PennytoShaq]

Yes, you need the roster to play an efficient style of basketball.

No, Orlando doesn’t have a roster that is able to play efficiently.

Why? Management has failed to build a cohesive roster and has used inefficient players for the last 6 seasons. This has nothing to do with preseason. It’s been the trend for a while. This still hasn’t been addressed this past offseason.

Orlando Magic basketball will be boring and inefficient again this season until moves are made. That’s why people are talking about it on a message board. People complaining about “board quality” can get over it.

Agree, but new management is not the old guard. So when you say 6 seasons, it’s a little unfair. These guys inherited this roster and it had no trade value when they got here. So it’s not like they could just clean house and get anything back to build with.

In other words, yes, the Magic will be boring until moves are made. No doubt about it. But saying that this FO has failed to build a cohesive roster is short sighted, imo. They kept an asset in AG, and kept him on a very tradable deal. Him and Isaac may very well work together, we do not know yet, so we can’t say it is not cohesive just yet.

I think if you can accept that there is one more year of this boring style of play, you will be much happier next season. And if I am wrong, feel free to roast me or bring up this post. But once Vuc is traded or expires, and suddenly our cap free again, plus we have the answer off how JI and AG look together, things are going to get a lot more fun to watch in Orlando.

We will see what this current management does to change this roster. They’ve decided to take a longer approach obviously by continuing to start 4/5 same players starting their second season in with Orlando. You and I don’t know what they were offered for specific players, but there has been very little movement on their end swapping bad contracts and letting the draft dictate their picks.

In other words, they haven’t been aggressive at all in shaping this roster outside of selecting tall athletes. Time will tell. Hopefully it doesn’t take another full season for them to make a significant move. We all would rather not watch Clifford squeeze wins and lose draft position again behind empty Vuc numbers. It was a big reason everyone hated Vogel and wouldn’t be smart to put Clifford in that position his first year here.

It’s hard to be aggressive when there is nothing to be aggressive with. That was my point.

Case in point, look at Miami, a team attempting to be aggressive for Jimmy Butler. They have a player in Richardson who many consider to be a fringe all-star, whiteside who is vastly overpaid, but I would argue a better player than Vuc, and Dragic who is more skilled than anyone on our team. And most people are saying it’s not enough for JB. They may still pull it off, but even Miami has more to work with than us. We seriously have nothing besides JI/AG and Bamba. No one really wants anyone else on our roster. That’s the reality of the situation.

You have dedicated at least 100 posts bashing our roster and Vuc because it sucks. Hey, I don’t disagree with that one bit.But don’t bash players and then turn around and complain that the guys you think suck haven’t been traded yet. If the casual fan is looking at Vuc loafing on box outs, it’s pretty safe to say that other teams see it as well. Why would they trade for that?

[Xatticus]

Vuc is a like a modern day Rony Seikaly.


https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1_hint=Rony+Seikaly&player_id1_select=Rony+Seikaly&player_id1=seikaro01&y1=1994&player_id2_hint=Nikola+Vucevic&player_id2_select=Nikola+Vucevic&player_id2=vucevni01&idx=players

They are/were stylistically very different. Seikaly spent all of his time around the basket and he was more of a black hole than Vuc is. Seikaly always got his even though he wasn't the focal point of the offense because once the ball went in to him, it wasn't coming back out. Both rely/relied on craftiness and guile around the basket because, despite their size, they were both lacking in verticality.

I think the similarity lies in how ineffectual both players are/were and the divisiveness they elicit(ed) from fans. Each has/had their die-hard supporters. I remember getting into arguments with other Magic fans that tried to compare Seikaly to centers like Ewing and Olajuwon.

Much like the difference between weather and climate, some folks simply can't appreciate the difference between per game numbers and efficiency.

[fendilim]

Yes, you need the roster to play an efficient style of basketball.

No, Orlando doesn’t have a roster that is able to play efficiently.

Why? Management has failed to build a cohesive roster and has used inefficient players for the last 6 seasons. This has nothing to do with preseason. It’s been the trend for a while. This still hasn’t been addressed this past offseason.

Orlando Magic basketball will be boring and inefficient again this season until moves are made. That’s why people are talking about it on a message board. People complaining about “board quality” can get over it.

Agree, but new management is not the old guard. So when you say 6 seasons, it’s a little unfair. These guys inherited this roster and it had no trade value when they got here. So it’s not like they could just clean house and get anything back to build with.

Instead I think the plan for them was to identify young guys to keep. The only one appears to be AG, and we have him on a good deal. I doubt we resign Vuc . The guys they have brought in have been on cheap and short deals, which is a nice change from the prior regime. They have also drafted the best guys they believed available. I think Bamba was a no brainer at 6 and they spent a lot of time with DSJ the draft before, so it’s not like they were not strongly considering him. Add AG, and even as a trade piece, I believe AG can get us a core player, so in my eyes the FO has 3/5 core players here after 1 year.

I also think they want to clean the roster out, but its not easy to do and also clear cap space. In other words, pointing fingers at them for Vuc still being here is pointless. I have asked more than once for any evidence that teams are asking for Vuc in a trade and we have none except the old Cousins rumor that was on Hennigan’s FO.

In other words, yes, the Magic will be boring until moves are made. No doubt about it. But saying that this FO has failed to build a cohesive roster is short sighted, imo. They kept an asset in AG, and kept him on a very tradable deal. Him and Isaac may very well work together, we do not know yet, so we can’t say it is not cohesive just yet.

I think 80% of the moves Weltman has made make complete sense. We can debate his second round picks and letting Hezonja go, but IMO he has drafted well so far in round 1 and has been solid in free agency (not overpaying or getting guys on long term deals). I also liked his move to get Mozgov and Grant here for Biz. I think Mozgov provides insurance if we move Vuc. Grant could end up being bad, but since he expires, I don’t mind it.

Briscoe could very well end up being a legit find for us like Birch was last year. And finally, I just like the energy, speed and effort these fringe guys play with that he has found.

I think if you can accept that there is one more year of this boring style of play, you will be much happier next season. And if I am wrong, feel free to roast me or bring up this post. But once Vuc is traded or expires, and suddenly our cap free again, plus we have the answer off how JI and AG look together, things are going to get a lot more fun to watch in Orlando.

This was way too long, sorry about that.

This. Not sure what other confirmation the Vuc haters wants to see. Vuc isnt here to stay. We drafted a guy named Mo Bamba.

At the same time, this management knows best that it really isnt good to blatantly tanking. Im sure the NBA has set guidelines regarding this after the Sixers exploited the system.

So just relax. “Evaluation year” after a terrible season is just re-naming the word “tank”. Lol. Its just sugarcoating.

[SHAQ32]

Case in point, look at Miami, a team attempting to be aggressive for Jimmy Butler. They have a player in Richardson who many consider to be a fringe all-star, whiteside who is vastly overpaid, but I would argue a better player than Vuc, and Dragic who is more skilled than anyone on our team.

Sorry to barge in on your conversation, but I just had to say that I don't agree with any of this.

[PennytoShaq]

Case in point, look at Miami, a team attempting to be aggressive for Jimmy Butler. They have a player in Richardson who many consider to be a fringe all-star, whiteside who is vastly overpaid, but I would argue a better player than Vuc, and Dragic who is more skilled than anyone on our team.

Sorry to barge in on your conversation, but I just had to say that I don't agree with any of this.

That’s great but it doesn’t mean it’s wrong.

[SHAQ32]

Case in point, look at Miami, a team attempting to be aggressive for Jimmy Butler. They have a player in Richardson who many consider to be a fringe all-star, whiteside who is vastly overpaid, but I would argue a better player than Vuc, and Dragic who is more skilled than anyone on our team.

Sorry to barge in on your conversation, but I just had to say that I don't agree with any of this.

That’s great but it doesn’t mean it’s wrong.

As far as Dragic being more skilled, obviously that's subjective.

But statistically speaking, your first two takes are wrong.

[PennytoShaq]

Sorry to barge in on your conversation, but I just had to say that I don't agree with any of this.

That’s great but it doesn’t mean it’s wrong.

As far as Dragic being more skilled, obviously that's subjective.

But statistically speaking, your first two takes are wrong.

What stats exactly are we talking about? That casts a wide net. for example, Whiteside’s PER last year was 24. Vuc’s was 19.

Richardson, I can understand. He doesn’t score much. He is a classic 3 and D guy. The reason Miami fans love him and consider him a fringe all-star this year is mainly because they think he will take a scoring leap and also because Lebron is gone