Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon

[VFX]

this is hilarious man, in every way i can think with no Vuc or Ross we are definitely a lottery team. I think i saw a stat that basically said Vuc was good for about 14 wins by himself. My issue is that some people around here seem to be triggered that we play through Vuc and yet not seem to realize that playing through Vuc is our best way to play. It's not Vuc's fault that the other players isn't stepping up, they're just not at that level yet where they can be consistent like Vuc can. You take away Vuc and ross and then what? we have to rely on Fournier for scoring and playmaking? DJ Augustine? AG? the magical mystical Free Agent that we're somehow going to land and is going to turn us around overnight? give me a break man

People say, "Let vuc walk and sure we'll take a step back for now but it's better for the future" How do you know that? How long is that "step back" going to be? 3 years? 5? Please believe that without vuc and ross our team falls apart, no playoffs, no free agents but hey we will be in the lottery for sure though i guess that's good. After 7 years of rebuilding, seeing coaches come and go i'm done with rebuilding and being a trash team. I've done my time man, i'm out and i'm not going back, Finally got a culture change and now people want to shake it up and erase it like an etch-a-sketch

And what has Vucevic brought us as the primary option for those 7 years? One playoff appearance that could easily be missed due to injuries or another team’s success under a good head coach. Oh man... We will be missing sooo much... What ever will we do?

People with this argument fail to understand that the nba is a talent driven league, and minor moves don’t make a huge difference in the grand scheme of the landscape.

New Orleans, of all teams, is more talented in 1 day of transactions than Orlando has been in 7 years under Vucevic. Think about that for a second. You seriously think a Vucevic led team is capable of anything substantial with 7 years of evidence and minor changes telling you otherwise....people are just happy to be satisfied with short term goals and participation trophies while they wear their blue tinted glasses and the rest of the league continues to progress.

[ezzzp]

A lot of you guys' logic doesn't check out. If the team you are linking as "garbage" is in fact garbage, than we have a bad team and need to make big changes/tank. But putting Vuc and "garbage" together in your minds some how makes a god-tier playoff team, you really should take a few steps back and realize how ridiculous that sounds.

Nah...you are confusing a young team in development as that somehow meaning it’s trash. That’s absolutely not the situation.

Some just understand that the best and most proven method for player developmental is for them to play in a competitive winning context. That’s the philosophy of the best player development franchises.

On top of that, that context also happens to be the best way to maintain value (and in some cases improve) value of ALL your assets.

That allows team best option to use ALL methods of improvement: draft/development, free agency, and trade. Instead of the reckless tank gamble...that usually just ends in treadmill bottom dwelling.

Yeah except you believe this “young team in development” is completely incapable of doing anything themselves without Vucevic carrying them for 3+ seasons after being in Orlando already for 7 years.

It’s not a “reckless tank gamble” just because you don’t believe fielding a team without spending $20+m is an overspend for lacking options.

“Context” to you is either barely missing or barely making the playoffs and being satisfied with Vuc being a fringe allstar as Orlando’s only silver lining. That line of thinking is why Orlando is satisfied with mediocrity.

Wrong, it’s not throwing players into roles they aren’t yet able to thrive in...allowing experience to carry the load while gradually adding responsibility as their game progresses. It’s not giving them reps on how to lose, but rather teaching them how to win with actual experience.

It doesn’t take much to see the dropoff that occurs when a team loses its two best players. If you want to play semantic games to convince yourself it’s something else than what it will be then that’s your problem - not mine.

Winning context is playing in 82+ meaningful games- more reps that count. Reps were accountability is to their teammates and were they are being tested vs teams actually trying.

That’s not my philosophy, it’s the philosophy of the best player development franchises in the NBA - many who also happen to be the best and most respected franchises in the league.

[VFX]

Vooch is not what makes our offense slow. Our offense is slow because we don't have athletic guards who can handle the ball. If you tried to run a fast offense with these guards and wings, you'd get a bunch of turnovers and give up a bunch of points off of turnovers.

And we play more than a third of the game with Vooch on the bench. Our players get plenty of opportunity to show what they can do with Vooch off the court. They will continue to get more chances if Vooch plays 32mpg for us again next year.

If you believe that our other players are about to make major evolutionary steps, then it makes sense to team them up with Vooch. If you believe that those players are unlikely to get much better, then letting Vooch walk is clearly a tank decision.

This is a misconception. You give Vucevic the best chance at scoring on the offensive end of the floor because that’s the only thing he’s good at. That’s what Clifford has done... He shoots 17-20 shots a game with weak floaters and mid range jumpers (usually low % shots). That is the definition of running a half court offense through a center that doesn’t necessarily stretch the floor, doesn’t get to the line, and doesn’t have the available options, outside of Ross, to compliment his game.

You think it’s a “tank decision” because you haven’t seen Clifford utilize the rest of the roster without running this ineffective offense through Vucevic. You just don’t believe Isaac and AG are capable of handling the offense, but compared to what exactly? Orlando still struggles to close out games all season off the backs of Ross and Vucevic “shouldering the offense”.

It’s not about “running fast” it’s about efficiency and available roster options. Those options aren’t going to change if you pay Vuc and Ross the available cap space and take zero risks. That’s what these posters are arguing about. They’d rather be stale and mediocre by doubling down on what hasntworked with years of evidence, rather than actually solving this inherently flawed roster.

[KillMonger]

this is hilarious man, in every way i can think with no Vuc or Ross we are definitely a lottery team. I think i saw a stat that basically said Vuc was good for about 14 wins by himself. My issue is that some people around here seem to be triggered that we play through Vuc and yet not seem to realize that playing through Vuc is our best way to play. It's not Vuc's fault that the other players isn't stepping up, they're just not at that level yet where they can be consistent like Vuc can. You take away Vuc and ross and then what? we have to rely on Fournier for scoring and playmaking? DJ Augustine? AG? the magical mystical Free Agent that we're somehow going to land and is going to turn us around overnight? give me a break man

People say, "Let vuc walk and sure we'll take a step back for now but it's better for the future" How do you know that? How long is that "step back" going to be? 3 years? 5? Please believe that without vuc and ross our team falls apart, no playoffs, no free agents but hey we will be in the lottery for sure though i guess that's good. After 7 years of rebuilding, seeing coaches come and go i'm done with rebuilding and being a trash team. I've done my time man, i'm out and i'm not going back, Finally got a culture change and now people want to shake it up and erase it like an etch-a-sketch

And what has Vucevic brought us as the primary option for those 7 years? One playoff appearance that could easily be missed due to injuries or another team’s success under a good head coach. Oh man... We will be missing sooo much... What ever will we do?

People with this argument fail to understand that the nba is a talent driven league, and minor moves don’t make a huge difference in the grand scheme of the landscape.

New Orleans, of all teams, is more talented in 1 day of transactions than Orlando has been in 7 years under Vucevic. Think about that for a second. You seriously think a Vucevic led team is capable of anything substantial with 7 years of evidence and minor changes telling you otherwise....people are just happy to be satisfied with short term goals and participation trophies while they wear their blue tinted glasses while the rest of the league has passed us by.

Vuc is leading the team because he has to, who else we got? Vuc is the ONLY player that rose to the occasion and everyone should recognize that. For me personally Vuc has always been a piece i've never thought of him as the main piece just the best of what we have and he has shown me that he is a good player in this league. I believe in what i can see and touch right in front of me i'm not going to put all of my eggs in the unknown basket instead of what i can see right in front of me right now. I believe we can build something WITH vuc, without having to take step backs and tank and whatever adjective you want to insert.

All i see is a player that does his job and plays hard and is without a doubt our best player as currently constructed, It's not his fault most of the other guys can't hang, it's not his fault that ownership hasn't until now put together some semblance of a competitive product. Plain and simple the other guys have to be better, Vuc has pretty much been getting better every year and no one on the team or around the league has a bad thing to say about him but i don't understand the vitriol he seems to get when the only thing Vuc CAN do is hoop.

If you're telling me that we'll someday be better without Vuc fine, that's a nice story and hell maybe you're right but until i see any indication of that i'm good with what's tangible, i'm good with what's right in front of me instead of punting for the unknowable future. Me personally i would rather build on what we have when we're trending in the right direction, i'm sorry if people don't understand that but i've made peace with it.

Does talent mean better? IDK

[VFX]

this is hilarious man, in every way i can think with no Vuc or Ross we are definitely a lottery team. I think i saw a stat that basically said Vuc was good for about 14 wins by himself. My issue is that some people around here seem to be triggered that we play through Vuc and yet not seem to realize that playing through Vuc is our best way to play. It's not Vuc's fault that the other players isn't stepping up, they're just not at that level yet where they can be consistent like Vuc can. You take away Vuc and ross and then what? we have to rely on Fournier for scoring and playmaking? DJ Augustine? AG? the magical mystical Free Agent that we're somehow going to land and is going to turn us around overnight? give me a break man

People say, "Let vuc walk and sure we'll take a step back for now but it's better for the future" How do you know that? How long is that "step back" going to be? 3 years? 5? Please believe that without vuc and ross our team falls apart, no playoffs, no free agents but hey we will be in the lottery for sure though i guess that's good. After 7 years of rebuilding, seeing coaches come and go i'm done with rebuilding and being a trash team. I've done my time man, i'm out and i'm not going back, Finally got a culture change and now people want to shake it up and erase it like an etch-a-sketch

And what has Vucevic brought us as the primary option for those 7 years? One playoff appearance that could easily be missed due to injuries or another team’s success under a good head coach. Oh man... We will be missing sooo much... What ever will we do?

People with this argument fail to understand that the nba is a talent driven league, and minor moves don’t make a huge difference in the grand scheme of the landscape.

New Orleans, of all teams, is more talented in 1 day of transactions than Orlando has been in 7 years under Vucevic. Think about that for a second. You seriously think a Vucevic led team is capable of anything substantial with 7 years of evidence and minor changes telling you otherwise....people are just happy to be satisfied with short term goals and participation trophies while they wear their blue tinted glasses while the rest of the league has passed us by.

Vuc is leading the team because he has to, who else we got? Vuc is the ONLY player that rose to the occasion and everyone should recognize that. For me personally Vuc has always been a piece i've never thought of him as the main piece just the best of what we have and he has shown me that he is a good player in this league. I believe in what i can see and touch right in front of me i'm not going to put all of my eggs in the unknown basket instead of what i can see right in front of me right now. I believe we can build something WITH vuc, without having to take step backs and tank and whatever adjective you want to insert.

All i see is a player that does his job and plays hard and is without a doubt our best player as currently constructed, It's not his fault most of the other guys can't hang, it's not his fault that ownership hasn't until now put together some semblance of a competitive product. Plain and simple the other guys have to be better, Vuc has pretty much been getting better every year and no one on the team or around the league has a bad thing to say about him but i don't understand the vitriol he seems to get when the only thing Vuc CAN do is hoop.

If you're telling me that we'll someday be better without Vuc fine, that's a nice story and hell maybe you're right but until i see any indication of that i'm good with what's tangible, i'm good with what's right in front of me instead of punting for the unknowable future. Me personally i would rather build on what we have when we're trending in the right direction, i'm sorry if people don't understand that but i've made peace with it.

Of course people are scared to imagine a team without the only option they’ve known for 7 years of being a primary scoring option. Like you said, he’s a complimentary option. Is it his fault? No. It’s the fault of all the previous management’s not addressing glaring issues offensively. Too bad. Now we are sitting on the fence mortgaging possibly our future at $20m+ because he was given the greenest light imaginable and scarce help offensively. That doesn’t mean it’s absolutely necessary to retain him out of fear of being an obsolete team. That’s a weak reason to overpay someone at a position of lesser value.

Talent does mean better with chemistry, context, and opportunity. Again, we aren’t talking about a team with multiple allstars that have failed to deliver based on their talent. We are talking about the opposite. A team with possibly one allstar (given the circumstances) that has failed to deliver within the course of a 7 year period.

[KillMonger]

And what has Vucevic brought us as the primary option for those 7 years? One playoff appearance that could easily be missed due to injuries or another team’s success under a good head coach. Oh man... We will be missing sooo much... What ever will we do?

People with this argument fail to understand that the nba is a talent driven league, and minor moves don’t make a huge difference in the grand scheme of the landscape.

New Orleans, of all teams, is more talented in 1 day of transactions than Orlando has been in 7 years under Vucevic. Think about that for a second. You seriously think a Vucevic led team is capable of anything substantial with 7 years of evidence and minor changes telling you otherwise....people are just happy to be satisfied with short term goals and participation trophies while they wear their blue tinted glasses while the rest of the league has passed us by.

Vuc is leading the team because he has to, who else we got? Vuc is the ONLY player that rose to the occasion and everyone should recognize that. For me personally Vuc has always been a piece i've never thought of him as the main piece just the best of what we have and he has shown me that he is a good player in this league. I believe in what i can see and touch right in front of me i'm not going to put all of my eggs in the unknown basket instead of what i can see right in front of me right now. I believe we can build something WITH vuc, without having to take step backs and tank and whatever adjective you want to insert.

All i see is a player that does his job and plays hard and is without a doubt our best player as currently constructed, It's not his fault most of the other guys can't hang, it's not his fault that ownership hasn't until now put together some semblance of a competitive product. Plain and simple the other guys have to be better, Vuc has pretty much been getting better every year and no one on the team or around the league has a bad thing to say about him but i don't understand the vitriol he seems to get when the only thing Vuc CAN do is hoop.

If you're telling me that we'll someday be better without Vuc fine, that's a nice story and hell maybe you're right but until i see any indication of that i'm good with what's tangible, i'm good with what's right in front of me instead of punting for the unknowable future. Me personally i would rather build on what we have when we're trending in the right direction, i'm sorry if people don't understand that but i've made peace with it.

Of course people are scared to imagine a team without the only option they’ve known for 7 years of being a primary scoring option. Like you said, he’s a complimentary option. Is it his fault? No. It’s the fault of all the previous management’s not addressing glaring issues offensively. Too bad. Now we are sitting on the fence mortgaging possibly our future at $20m+ because he was given the greenest light imaginable and scarce help offensively. That doesn’t mean it’s absolutely necessary to retain him out of fear of being an obsolete team. That’s a weak reason to overpay someone at a position of lesser value.

But is it an overpay? what's the market? you're making assumptions with incomplete information...you don't know what the offers are going to be so saying all this now might be a bit premature is it not? what's the criteria, what's the threshold? what's that golden number where is crosses over from being a good deal and turns into an overpay? we don't know do we? Is Vuc necessary? no but make no mistake without him we're a much worse team unless we get someone who can replicate the production but that's information i couldn't possibly know.

Also talent doesn't necessarily mean better, there are examples of players having more talent than others but are not better than others. It's the intangible things that i think you're overlooking, like over those 7 years with vuc......how many different players have we had? how many different coaches? How many different schemes? The turnover over those 7 years isn't something you can put on a stat sheet but it all matters and factors in.

[VFX]

Vuc is leading the team because he has to, who else we got? Vuc is the ONLY player that rose to the occasion and everyone should recognize that. For me personally Vuc has always been a piece i've never thought of him as the main piece just the best of what we have and he has shown me that he is a good player in this league. I believe in what i can see and touch right in front of me i'm not going to put all of my eggs in the unknown basket instead of what i can see right in front of me right now. I believe we can build something WITH vuc, without having to take step backs and tank and whatever adjective you want to insert.

All i see is a player that does his job and plays hard and is without a doubt our best player as currently constructed, It's not his fault most of the other guys can't hang, it's not his fault that ownership hasn't until now put together some semblance of a competitive product. Plain and simple the other guys have to be better, Vuc has pretty much been getting better every year and no one on the team or around the league has a bad thing to say about him but i don't understand the vitriol he seems to get when the only thing Vuc CAN do is hoop.

If you're telling me that we'll someday be better without Vuc fine, that's a nice story and hell maybe you're right but until i see any indication of that i'm good with what's tangible, i'm good with what's right in front of me instead of punting for the unknowable future. Me personally i would rather build on what we have when we're trending in the right direction, i'm sorry if people don't understand that but i've made peace with it.

Of course people are scared to imagine a team without the only option they’ve known for 7 years of being a primary scoring option. Like you said, he’s a complimentary option. Is it his fault? No. It’s the fault of all the previous management’s not addressing glaring issues offensively. Too bad. Now we are sitting on the fence mortgaging possibly our future at $20m+ because he was given the greenest light imaginable and scarce help offensively. That doesn’t mean it’s absolutely necessary to retain him out of fear of being an obsolete team. That’s a weak reason to overpay someone at a position of lesser value.

But is it an overpay? what's the market? you're making assumptions with incomplete information...you don't know what the offers are going to be so saying all this now might be a bit premature is it not? what's the criteria, what's the threshold? what's that golden number where is crosses over from being a good deal and turns into an overpay? we don't know do we? Is Vuc necessary? no but make no mistake without him we're a much worse team unless we get someone who can replicate the production but that's information i couldn't possibly know.

Also talent doesn't necessarily mean better, there are examples of players having more talent than others but are not better than others. It's the intangible things that i think you're overlooking, like over those 7 years with vuc......how many different players have we had? how many different coaches? How many different schemes? The turnover over those 7 years isn't something you can put on a stat sheet but it all matters and factors in.

Of course we don’t have a figure yet, but the point is that you don’t double down and pay more for something that has been less to moderately successful and doesn’t compliment the rest of the roster. He’s going to be paid more, like it or not.

[KillMonger]

well he should be paid more, that last deal was a discount....how much more is the key, i think there is a number there that is fair to Vuc and not an overpay for us. If i haven't made it clear though i also feel we shouldn't overpay for Vuc but i don't know the numbers yet so i'm not going to speculate, i did with the AG deal and i was off so i'm not going to start counting pockets now.

[ezzzp]

This is a misconception. You give Vucevic the best chance at scoring on the offensive end of the floor because that’s the only thing he’s good at. That’s what Clifford has done... He shoots 17-20 shots a game with weak floaters and mid range jumpers (usually low % shots). That is the definition of running a half court offense through a center that doesn’t necessarily stretch the floor, doesn’t get to the line, and doesn’t have the available options, outside of Ross, to compliment his game.

You think it’s a “tank decision” because you haven’t seen Clifford utilize the rest of the roster without running this ineffective offense through Vucevic. You just don’t believe Isaac and AG are capable of handling the offense, but compared to what exactly? Orlando still struggles to close out games all season off the backs of Ross and Vucevic “shouldering the offense”.

It’s not about “running fast” it’s about efficiency and available roster options. Those options aren’t going to change if you pay Vuc and Ross the available cap space and take zero risks.

Wrong...again. Even more proof that you don't actually watch games or are too blinded by anti-vuc bias to know wtf is actually happening on floor.

First of all, ONLY 231 of Vucevic's 1354 FGA's were midrange shots...17% of his offense is the reality of what you say is his entire game.

431 of Vucevic's FGA's were in the restricted area. 231 were 3PA's. That's 662 of Vucevic's 1354 FGA's or 49% of his offense in what is the most efficient zones in basketball (Morey ball). What in the world are you talking about?!

On top of that he shot 403 more in the paint, also considered a solid efficiency zone AND he shot those at an excellent 48% clip.

LMAO that Vucevic doesn't spread the floor. Wow. Yea .364 on 3 attempts per game is nothing...all from the top of the break.

That 3pt shooting isn't in decline either, its improving rapidly and its a natural progression as he's always been a good shooter. He's just switched his prior long two's to behind the line. This summer he's stated that his primary focus is to work even more on his 3PT shot. Already its changed his entire efficiency dynamic...its only going to get better.

[basketballRob]

Can someone explain a scenario where we keep Ross, Birch, and maybe add another player?

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

[VFX]

This is a misconception. You give Vucevic the best chance at scoring on the offensive end of the floor because that’s the only thing he’s good at. That’s what Clifford has done... He shoots 17-20 shots a game with weak floaters and mid range jumpers (usually low % shots). That is the definition of running a half court offense through a center that doesn’t necessarily stretch the floor, doesn’t get to the line, and doesn’t have the available options, outside of Ross, to compliment his game.

You think it’s a “tank decision” because you haven’t seen Clifford utilize the rest of the roster without running this ineffective offense through Vucevic. You just don’t believe Isaac and AG are capable of handling the offense, but compared to what exactly? Orlando still struggles to close out games all season off the backs of Ross and Vucevic “shouldering the offense”.

It’s not about “running fast” it’s about efficiency and available roster options. Those options aren’t going to change if you pay Vuc and Ross the available cap space and take zero risks.

Wrong...again. Even more proof that you don't actually watch games or are too blinded by anti-vuc bias to know wtf is actually happening on floor.

First of all, ONLY 231 of Vucevic's 1354 FGA's were midrange shots...17% of his offense is the reality of what you say is his entire game.

431 of Vucevic's FGA's were in the restricted area. 231 were 3PA's. That's 662 of Vucevic's 1354 FGA's or 49% of his offense in what is the most efficient zones in basketball (Morey ball). What in the world are you talking about?!

On top of that he shot 403 more in the paint, also considered a solid efficiency zone AND he shot those at an excellent 48% clip.

LMAO that Vucevic doesn't spread the floor. Wow. Yea .364 on 3 attempts per game is nothing...all from the top of the break.

That 3pt shooting isn't in decline either, its improving rapidly and its a natural progression as he's always been a good shooter. He's just switched his prior long two's to behind the line. This summer he's stated that his primary focus is to work even more on his 3PT shot. Already its changed his entire efficiency dynamic...its only going to get better.

Lol @ telling me I don’t watch games and how ineffective and inefficient the offense has been for several seasons while they fail to close out games. “Slow and steady progress” doesn’t take a decade to fulfill with essentially the same roster. You are a delusional Vucevic homer that would rather Orlando have a sub .500 record with Vuc, than Orlando actually progress for once this decade and solve the roster issues.

Your opinion matters less and less the more you decide to talk down to people you happen to disagree with based upon information from better run organizations and **** you read, but isn’t being utilized, in regards to talent acquisition and longevity. You are going to cry if/when Vuc isn’t retained for obvious reasons. Can’t wait.

[Knightro]

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[swarlesbarkley]

This is a misconception. You give Vucevic the best chance at scoring on the offensive end of the floor because that’s the only thing he’s good at. That’s what Clifford has done... He shoots 17-20 shots a game with weak floaters and mid range jumpers (usually low % shots). That is the definition of running a half court offense through a center that doesn’t necessarily stretch the floor, doesn’t get to the line, and doesn’t have the available options, outside of Ross, to compliment his game.

You think it’s a “tank decision” because you haven’t seen Clifford utilize the rest of the roster without running this ineffective offense through Vucevic. You just don’t believe Isaac and AG are capable of handling the offense, but compared to what exactly? Orlando still struggles to close out games all season off the backs of Ross and Vucevic “shouldering the offense”.

It’s not about “running fast” it’s about efficiency and available roster options. Those options aren’t going to change if you pay Vuc and Ross the available cap space and take zero risks.

Wrong...again. Even more proof that you don't actually watch games or are too blinded by anti-vuc bias to know wtf is actually happening on floor.

First of all, ONLY 231 of Vucevic's 1354 FGA's were midrange shots...17% of his offense is the reality of what you say is his entire game.

431 of Vucevic's FGA's were in the restricted area. 231 were 3PA's. That's 662 of Vucevic's 1354 FGA's or 49% of his offense in what is the most efficient zones in basketball (Morey ball). What in the world are you talking about?!

On top of that he shot 403 more in the paint, also considered a solid efficiency zone AND he shot those at an excellent 48% clip.

LMAO that Vucevic doesn't spread the floor. Wow. Yea .364 on 3 attempts per game is nothing...all from the top of the break.

That 3pt shooting isn't in decline either, its improving rapidly and its a natural progression as he's always been a good shooter. He's just switched his prior long two's to behind the line. This summer he's stated that his primary focus is to work even more on his 3PT shot. Already its changed his entire efficiency dynamic...its only going to get better.

I was impressed with Vuc's shot selection this past season. It's been gradually getting better and better. He did have a terrible habit of settling for long 2s a few years ago and it was fair criticism then (less so now, though, still could be concerned it would return). My main concern for Vuc at this point is his lack of closing ability in crunch time and basically getting shut down in the playoffs. I also don't think he should be a primary option on a team and if we sign him to anything more than 25m, he most likely will be for us for a while.

[ezzzp]

Of course people are scared to imagine a team without the only option they’ve known for 7 years of being a primary scoring option. Like you said, he’s a complimentary option. Is it his fault? No. It’s the fault of all the previous management’s not addressing glaring issues offensively. Too bad. Now we are sitting on the fence mortgaging possibly our future at $20m+ because he was given the greenest light imaginable and scarce help offensively. That doesn’t mean it’s absolutely necessary to retain him out of fear of being an obsolete team. That’s a weak reason to overpay someone at a position of lesser value.

Talent does mean better with chemistry, context, and opportunity. Again, we aren’t talking about a team with multiple allstars that have failed to deliver based on their talent. We are talking about the opposite. A team with possibly one allstar (given the circumstances) that has failed to deliver within the course of a 7 year period.

Actually, Vucevic has NOT been the primary option for 7 years....AND in at least 3 of those 7 years the Magic were tanking and one was ruined by injuries.

• 2012-13:

Options 1 and 2 were A Aflallo (2307 min / 22.5 USG and J Nelson (1977 min 22.5 USG). Then once Tobias Harris arrived, he leapfrogged everyone (997 min / 23.7 USG). Vucevic was at best 3d-4th option with a 19.7 USG rate that year.

• 2013-14:

Vucevic is the 3d-4th option (21.8 USG). Again, he's behind Oladipo 24.4 USG and Afflalo 23.3 USG, and sharing 3-4th guy role with Tobias Harris 22.2 USG.

• 2014-15:

This is the first season that Vucevic jumps into top 2 option. He shares the load with Oladipo (26.0/25.2 USG). But obviously Oladipo has ball in his hands and is main on-ball guy. Harris is 3d option. Vucevic puts up 19p/10r on .548 TS% and is in the All-Star conversation

• 2015-16:

Skiles makes Vucevic top option. Magic have 10 win improvement. On Jan 1st that unit was 19-12 with Skiles being named coach of the month for December. Then the wheels fell off after that. Vucevic puts up 18p/9r/3a but inefficiently as his long-two volume jumps (accounts for 30% of his offense) and that craters his TS%.

• 2016-17:

Vogel arrives and makes Aaron Gordon "his new Paul George." By mid season its a total disaster and Vogel shifts the offensive load to Vucevic with Fournier as 2nd option. Vucevic has his worst year 15p/8r/3a.

• 2017-18:

Vucevic is top option (25.9 USG) / Aaron Gordon as 2nd option (24.7 USG). Magic start off on a tear, but then injuries (to Vucevic, Gordon and Fournier overlap) and derail season. Vucevic is out from Decemer 23d through February 22nd. By the time he gets back season is lost and by March he's getting limited minutes (23 mpg) as chasing lottery odds becomes agenda.

• 2018-19:

Clifford becomes new coach and finally a coach utilizes him in a way that takes advantage of his full arsenal. Vucevic has best year, is an all-star and leads Magic into the playoffs were he and team get crushed by NBA champions.

[ezzzp]

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not really surprising...never seemed like the right fit for that roster

[ezzzp]

Wrong...again. Even more proof that you don't actually watch games or are too blinded by anti-vuc bias to know wtf is actually happening on floor.

First of all, ONLY 231 of Vucevic's 1354 FGA's were midrange shots...17% of his offense is the reality of what you say is his entire game.

431 of Vucevic's FGA's were in the restricted area. 231 were 3PA's. That's 662 of Vucevic's 1354 FGA's or 49% of his offense in what is the most efficient zones in basketball (Morey ball). What in the world are you talking about?!

On top of that he shot 403 more in the paint, also considered a solid efficiency zone AND he shot those at an excellent 48% clip.

LMAO that Vucevic doesn't spread the floor. Wow. Yea .364 on 3 attempts per game is nothing...all from the top of the break.

That 3pt shooting isn't in decline either, its improving rapidly and its a natural progression as he's always been a good shooter. He's just switched his prior long two's to behind the line. This summer he's stated that his primary focus is to work even more on his 3PT shot. Already its changed his entire efficiency dynamic...its only going to get better.

Lol @ telling me I don’t watch games and how ineffective and inefficient the offense has been for several seasons while they fail to close out games. “Slow and steady progress” doesn’t take a decade to fulfill with essentially the same roster. You are a delusional Vucevic homer that would rather Orlando have a sub .500 record with Vuc, than Orlando actually progress for once this decade and solve the roster issues.

Your opinion matters less and less the more you decide to talk down to people you happen to disagree with based upon information from better run organizations and **** you read, but isn’t being utilized, in regards to talent acquisition and longevity. You are going to cry if/when Vuc isn’t retained for obvious reasons. Can’t wait.

The proof is right there. Either you aren't watching or you are looking through an irrationally biased lens that is totally distorting what you see. You are literally denying statistical evidence about shot location captured by camera tracking. Yea, I'm a homer...more like you are just embarrassed about having reality smack you out of your weird anti-vucevic bias so now you have to cry and call other people delusional homers because facts don't agree with you.

Essentially the same roster? LMAO even more proof you don't know wtf you are talking about...Go look at Magic rosters in past decade on BB Reference and stop with this ridiculous nonsense. 5 coaches and 2 GM's and massive player turnover is what the reality is. SMH.

...and I could care less if Vuc is gone, as long as the Magic replace his production / role. I'm a Magic fan not a player fan. All you have to do is see my comments I've made to you on why I thought Conley was an option and same reason why I've been advocating for D'Lo even though its a very long shot.

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[fendilim]

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Not surprised.

The Kings have gone out of their way into acquiring players that best fit the way they want to play.

Everyone questioned Hield for Cousins, Bagley over Doncic. But so far, both moves have really fit into their plan. Things are looking bring for them.

[Nyce_1]

Can someone explain a scenario where we keep Ross, Birch, and maybe add another player?

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Easy.

Re-sign Ross for $15M/yr.
Come to an agreement with Birch for $7M/yr.
Use MLE for Jeremy Lamb.

If you want a bigger player, use #16 to dump Fournier. Renounce Vuc. Strech Mozgov and sign Brogdon or DLo. Then re-sign Ross. And use the room MLE to sign a big.

[VFX]

Of course people are scared to imagine a team without the only option they’ve known for 7 years of being a primary scoring option. Like you said, he’s a complimentary option. Is it his fault? No. It’s the fault of all the previous management’s not addressing glaring issues offensively. Too bad. Now we are sitting on the fence mortgaging possibly our future at $20m+ because he was given the greenest light imaginable and scarce help offensively. That doesn’t mean it’s absolutely necessary to retain him out of fear of being an obsolete team. That’s a weak reason to overpay someone at a position of lesser value.

Talent does mean better with chemistry, context, and opportunity. Again, we aren’t talking about a team with multiple allstars that have failed to deliver based on their talent. We are talking about the opposite. A team with possibly one allstar (given the circumstances) that has failed to deliver within the course of a 7 year period.

Actually, Vucevic has NOT been the primary option for 7 years....AND in at least 3 of those 7 years the Magic were tanking and one was ruined by injuries.

• 2012-13:

Options 1 and 2 were A Aflallo (2307 min / 22.5 USG and J Nelson (1977 min 22.5 USG). Then once Tobias Harris arrived, he leapfrogged everyone (997 min / 23.7 USG). Vucevic was at best 3d-4th option with a 19.7 USG rate that year.

• 2013-14:

Vucevic is the 3d-4th option (21.8 USG). Again, he's behind Oladipo 24.4 USG and Afflalo 23.3 USG, and sharing 3-4th guy role with Tobias Harris 22.2 USG.

• 2014-15:

This is the first season that Vucevic jumps into top 2 option. He shares the load with Oladipo (26.0/25.2 USG). But obviously Oladipo has ball in his hands and is main on-ball guy. Harris is 3d option. Vucevic puts up 19p/10r on .548 TS% and is in the All-Star conversation

• 2015-16:

Skiles makes Vucevic top option. Magic have 10 win improvement. On Jan 1st that unit was 19-12 with Skiles being named coach of the month for December. Then the wheels fell off after that. Vucevic puts up 18p/9r/3a but inefficiently as his long-two volume jumps (accounts for 30% of his offense) and that craters his TS%.

• 2016-17:

Vogel arrives and makes Aaron Gordon "his new Paul George." By mid season its a total disaster and Vogel shifts the offensive load to Vucevic with Fournier as 2nd option. Vucevic has his worst year 15p/8r/3a.

• 2017-18:

Vucevic is top option (25.9 USG) / Aaron Gordon as 2nd option (24.7 USG). Magic start off on a tear, but then injuries (to Vucevic, Gordon and Fournier overlap) and derail season. Vucevic is out from Decemer 23d through February 22nd. By the time he gets back season is lost and by March he's getting limited minutes (23 mpg) as chasing lottery odds becomes agenda.

• 2018-19:

Clifford becomes new coach and finally a coach utilizes him in a way that takes advantage of his full arsenal. Vucevic has best year, is an all-star and leads Magic into the playoffs were he and team get crushed by NBA champions.

So in this breakdown he basically becomes a primary option in 2014 with Oladipo and is the “lead option” in 4-5 of the 7 seasons he’s been here one of which he isn’t with Vogel. K... that doesn’t help your argument.

Yeah you think Vucevic won’t have a career year in
- A contract season
- Under a big-favorable Clifford system
- After Orlando drafts his position in the lottery
- With no other players to realistically take his touches away.

And No... Orlando wasn’t “tanking” they were bad because they lost their superstar player, identity, head coach, contending roster, and GM in the aftermath of the Dwight’s departure. You shouldn’t be able to use the word tanking anymore. You’ve bastardized that term to death.