The Tobias Harris Situation

[Bensational]

Mkg& vonelh for Tobias ridnour harkless
Similar value SF + lottery pick - no way it gets done

Ryno,ajinca, &1st for Frye and Tobias
Ryno + some sweetener might work, you can't really throw in Frye and get a first. Ryno for frye and Tobes - i'd do it if I'm No, depending on their salary situation

Amir Johnson,Bruno cabcio,&1st for Tobias,a.nNicholson &harkless
selling low, Amir is UFA, Caboclo is a wild card here, so you might strike gold or hit rock bottom

Otto porter, seraphin, Webster& 1st, for Tobias , harkless, a.Nicholson
eh... Porter looks really average, maybe one of those JJ for Tobes deals?

i'd definitely consider the first two. not sure the Raptor deal would sit well, unless Caboclo is another Henny wild card stud. Washington deal doesn't really do enough for us, especially for what we're sending out.

[Bensational]

Mirotic + McDermott for Harris + Harkless

Vuc/Dedmon
Mirotic/O'Quinn
Gordon/McDermott
Dipo/Fournier
Payton/?

this is obviously getting a bit greedy and Chicago wouldn't say yes. i'd be happy with straight up Mirotic/Harris swap, or a McDermott/Harkless swap, too.

[VoiceOReason]

I would wet my pants and cry tears of joy if we traded Harris for Ryan Anderson.

Why? Harris is a better player.

If you're not a fan of defense then I can see wanting Ryno back, but he's worse than Frye. Waaay worse. Heck.. Based on the top 100 Power Forwards in the league in Defensive RPM, Ryno ranks 99 out of 100. Almost dead last. -3.61 DRPM

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_ ... position/6

Frye is 37th among PFs with a 0.61 DRPM. Tobias is 42nd among SFs with a -0.71 DRPM.

...This is for tiderulz who says Elfrid's defense is questionable because he is a risk taker supposedly...

Payton is 3rd best among PGs with a 1.95 DRPM.

Eye test tells me Frye has a real problem with defensive rotations though...it's not so much his d on his man it's just he is never in the right place to help...not that Ryan would be any better but he dang sure can rebound a hell of a lot better...and on a shorter contract...

[VoiceOReason]

Obviously something else would have to come in the deal with Ryan also

[Skin]

Mkg& vonelh for Tobias ridnour harkless
Similar value SF + lottery pick - no way it gets done

Ryno,ajinca, &1st for Frye and Tobias
Ryno + some sweetener might work, you can't really throw in Frye and get a first. Ryno for frye and Tobes - i'd do it if I'm No, depending on their salary situation

Amir Johnson,Bruno cabcio,&1st for Tobias,a.nNicholson &harkless
selling low, Amir is UFA, Caboclo is a wild card here, so you might strike gold or hit rock bottom

Otto porter, seraphin, Webster& 1st, for Tobias , harkless, a.Nicholson
eh... Porter looks really average, maybe one of those JJ for Tobes deals?

The Toronto trade is the one I like most. I think people still widely underappreciate Amir Johnson. He's a name that stands out as someone under the radar that Henny would make a move for with people raising an eye brow to at the beginning. High character, BBIQ, heart and hustle player who would be a nice compliment to Frye since he is a good post defender, but not so good defending stretch 4s.

However, Amir is an UFA who won't be getting the max so trading for Bird Rights is not significant. If we wanted him, we could pursue him in FA without having to give up Tobe.

Your Wizards trade idea is interesting. Porter is still unknown. Seraphin can play some post D. Not sure I would pull the trigger but it's something worth chewing on.

[Nemesis21]

Mirotic + McDermott for Harris + Harkless

Vuc/Dedmon
Mirotic/O'Quinn
Gordon/McDermott
Dipo/Fournier
Payton/?

this is obviously getting a bit greedy and Chicago wouldn't say yes. i'd be happy with straight up Mirotic/Harris swap, or a McDermott/Harkless swap, too.

I'd do that, hell throw in Nicholson and our 2015 2nd round pick(isn't it projected mid to high 2nd rd?).

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=pl7ds26

Then if we have a top 5 pick(say we get the 5th), maybe trade down with Charlotte, they send #11 and #41 picks for #5(maybe they include Jeff Taylor or Gerald Henderson). Magic could then draft PG Terry Rozier with the 11th pick, to back up Payton.

[tiderulz]

i think you can compare, if they are doing the same things. If the ball is stopping in Dipo's hands (which it used to when he was playing PG, i do like him better now that he can concentrate on just SG) or when he goes 6-20 on a night, and he hasnt shown me this extreme defense. Yet on a night when Dipo will go 6-20 and Harris goes 5-15, people will only criticize Harris. I agree that situations are different with regard to RFA and his contract situation. Like i said, im for whatever improves the team. It just seems that some players escape criticism while doing the exact things that Harris gets criticized for, and i cant understand why.

There are existing criticisms for players like Payton and Oladipo, but they aren't magnified as much because:

1) They are still developing
2) They have limited NBA experience
3) They aren't in a contract year where we need to make a decision on what to do with them
4) They aren't tweeners

Harris is in his 5th season. When Payton and Dipo are 5th year players, I'm sure that their criticisms will be talked about in great length as we discuss whether to keep them or not and how much we can afford for them. I think that is easy to understand.

1) they are still developing, but an issue is an issue, whether you have had it a short time or a long time.
2) Harris has shown that he can play SF. only people calling him a tweener is someone that wants to denigrate or put him down

3) I hope you realize that Harris is in only his 4th season (dont just count lines on ESPN.com) and sat the bench most of his first 1.5 years in Milwaukee 11mpg in 70 games over 1.5 years.

[VoiceOReason]

Mkg& vonelh for Tobias ridnour harkless
Similar value SF + lottery pick - no way it gets done

Ryno,ajinca, &1st for Frye and Tobias
Ryno + some sweetener might work, you can't really throw in Frye and get a first. Ryno for frye and Tobes - i'd do it if I'm No, depending on their salary situation

Amir Johnson,Bruno cabcio,&1st for Tobias,a.nNicholson &harkless
selling low, Amir is UFA, Caboclo is a wild card here, so you might strike gold or hit rock bottom

Otto porter, seraphin, Webster& 1st, for Tobias , harkless, a.Nicholson
eh... Porter looks really average, maybe one of those JJ for Tobes deals?

The Toronto trade is the one I like most. I think people still widely underappreciate Amir Johnson. He's a name that stands out as someone under the radar that Henny would make a move for with people raising an eye brow to at the beginning. High character, BBIQ, heart and hustle player who would be a nice compliment to Frye since he is a good post defender, but not so good defending stretch 4s.

However, Amir is an UFA who won't be getting the max so trading for Bird Rights is not significant. If we wanted him, we could pursue him in FA without having to give up Tobe.

Your Wizards trade idea is interesting. Porter is still unknown. Seraphin can play some post D. Not sure I would pull the trigger but it's something worth chewing on.

I just went quickly through the rosters...everyone talks about not wanting to sign Tobias to max money but never puts anything remotely feasible as far as trades...

I find it funny you pick the Toronto trade out of all of them...I too think Amir could play some nice d for us but the sleeper in the deal is the Bruno guy...

I think Otto is exactly the type of kid hennigan would go after...I think haha..


Just wanted to here some thoughts...I just wish I could be a fly on a wall in hennigans office

[tiderulz]

I would wet my pants and cry tears of joy if we traded Harris for Ryan Anderson.

Why? Harris is a better player.

If you're not a fan of defense then I can see wanting Ryno back, but he's worse than Frye. Waaay worse. Heck.. Based on the top 100 Power Forwards in the league in Defensive RPM, Ryno ranks 99 out of 100. Almost dead last. -3.61 DRPM

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_ ... position/6

Frye is 37th among PFs with a 0.61 DRPM. Tobias is 42nd among SFs with a -0.71 DRPM.

...This is for tiderulz who says Elfrid's defense is questionable because he is a risk taker supposedly...

Payton is 3rd best among PGs with a 1.95 DRPM.

go back and look, i was touting Payton BEFORE the draft, thought the kid would be real good here. But i watch him play, he makes outstanding defensive plays, then gets lost in the half court and his man gets layups. He will improve, but he has his lapses a lot

[Bensational]

I would wet my pants and cry tears of joy if we traded Harris for Ryan Anderson.

Why? Harris is a better player.

If you're not a fan of defense then I can see wanting Ryno back, but he's worse than Frye. Waaay worse. Heck.. Based on the top 100 Power Forwards in the league in Defensive RPM, Ryno ranks 99 out of 100. Almost dead last. -3.61 DRPM

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_ ... position/6

Frye is 37th among PFs with a 0.61 DRPM. Tobias is 42nd among SFs with a -0.71 DRPM.

...This is for tiderulz who says Elfrid's defense is questionable because he is a risk taker supposedly...

Payton is 3rd best among PGs with a 1.95 DRPM.

go back and look, i was touting Payton BEFORE the draft, thought the kid would be real good here. But i watch him play, he makes outstanding defensive plays, then gets lost in the half court and his man gets layups. He will improve, but he has his lapses a lot

all our guys get lost on defense. it's this weird zone we play. the amount of times i've seen Payton under the rim ready to crash boards, on the opposite side of the court to where he started, when his man is covered but a wing is just waiting to burn us from 3... exact same deal with Harris. Dipo gambles a lot and loses his man, and he also more often than not loses his man on a switch because his own teammate gets in his way (and they have no hope whatsoever of keeping in front of the ballhandler).

AG is the only player who literally sticks to his man like glue. Fournier does, too, (or at least chases) but his d just isn't as good. and that confuses me. why are they playing something much more like a man, when everyone else is playing zone??

[woosah]

I would wet my pants and cry tears of joy if we traded Harris for Ryan Anderson.

Why? Harris is a better player.

If you're not a fan of defense then I can see wanting Ryno back, but he's worse than Frye. Waaay worse. Heck.. Based on the top 100 Power Forwards in the league in Defensive RPM, Ryno ranks 99 out of 100. Almost dead last. -3.61 DRPM

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_ ... position/6

Frye is 37th among PFs with a 0.61 DRPM. Tobias is 42nd among SFs with a -0.71 DRPM.

...This is for tiderulz who says Elfrid's defense is questionable because he is a risk taker supposedly...

Payton is 3rd best among PGs with a 1.95 DRPM.

go back and look, i was touting Payton BEFORE the draft, thought the kid would be real good here. But i watch him play, he makes outstanding defensive plays, then gets lost in the half court and his man gets layups. He will improve, but he has his lapses a lot

yep, can't lie i have seen this. He still has a ways to go but we all see what he can be and when the entire defense is dialed in and giving the same effort as a team he seems even more motivated and goes even harder. EP will be fine.

[VoiceOReason]

Why? Harris is a better player.

If you're not a fan of defense then I can see wanting Ryno back, but he's worse than Frye. Waaay worse. Heck.. Based on the top 100 Power Forwards in the league in Defensive RPM, Ryno ranks 99 out of 100. Almost dead last. -3.61 DRPM

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_ ... position/6

Frye is 37th among PFs with a 0.61 DRPM. Tobias is 42nd among SFs with a -0.71 DRPM.

...This is for tiderulz who says Elfrid's defense is questionable because he is a risk taker supposedly...

Payton is 3rd best among PGs with a 1.95 DRPM.

go back and look, i was touting Payton BEFORE the draft, thought the kid would be real good here. But i watch him play, he makes outstanding defensive plays, then gets lost in the half court and his man gets layups. He will improve, but he has his lapses a lot

all our guys get lost on defense. it's this weird zone we play. the amount of times i've seen Payton under the rim ready to crash boards, on the opposite side of the court to where he started, when his man is covered but a wing is just waiting to burn us from 3... exact same deal with Harris. Dipo gambles a lot and loses his man, and he also more often than not loses his man on a switch because his own teammate gets in his way (and they have no hope whatsoever of keeping in front of the ballhandler).

AG is the only player who literally sticks to his man like glue. Fournier does, too, (or at least chases) but his d just isn't as good. and that confuses me. why are they playing something much more like a man, when everyone else is playing zone??

The reason it looks like zone is because of how bad they all are at rotations...Tobias seems to be the worst at even attempting to rotate...channing seems to at least know the rotation but is just horribly slow at getting to where hes supposed be...... Watch a.g. over the next few games he is rotating to the open man though he and Payton get caught with their heads turned quite a bit

[407Junkie]

i think you can compare, if they are doing the same things. If the ball is stopping in Dipo's hands (which it used to when he was playing PG, i do like him better now that he can concentrate on just SG) or when he goes 6-20 on a night, and he hasnt shown me this extreme defense. Yet on a night when Dipo will go 6-20 and Harris goes 5-15, people will only criticize Harris. I agree that situations are different with regard to RFA and his contract situation. Like i said, im for whatever improves the team. It just seems that some players escape criticism while doing the exact things that Harris gets criticized for, and i cant understand why.

There are existing criticisms for players like Payton and Oladipo, but they aren't magnified as much because:

1) They are still developing
2) They have limited NBA experience
3) They aren't in a contract year where we need to make a decision on what to do with them
4) They aren't tweeners

Harris is in his 5th season. When Payton and Dipo are 5th year players, I'm sure that their criticisms will be talked about in great length as we discuss whether to keep them or not and how much we can afford for them. I think that is easy to understand.

Not for the Tobias Harris fan boy it's not.

[siar617]

Good post dude.

I think this is one of the most crucial decisions we will have to make, regarding our roster, in awhile.

I've analyzed it and have come to a lot of the same conclusions as you.

I also think our biggest need is a rim protecting PF, but I don't think we get that in a trade.

The most likely outcome is re-signing him and trading him. But that almost definitely means we take in at least 1 bad contract in return.

I think a good move would be to make a trade before the deadline and attempt to stay young, athletic, and fill a need.

Of course the other team would need confirmation with Tobias that he would re-sign with them, given a lucrative contract is involved.

There are a few teams with young, talented players who haven't really had a fair shake at playing time and could be useful.

Say he really did want to go to the Knicks, and they were interested in a trade, I think some good things could happen.

I wonder if they would accept an offer for Tim Hardaway JR, and Cleanthony Early.

A lot of Magic fans will say that is a bad deal I feel. But, actually I think that is a fantastic deal. Maybe even too good for us.

We would receive good contracts in return and keep cap flexibility.

Hardaway JR would eliminate the need to retain Ben Gordon and provide scoring off the bench.

Early could possibly fill in the role we've all wished Harkless would. He is a very athletic SF, with a long wing span, and defensive potential.

A 2nd string rotation of Fournier, Hardaway JR, Early, Frye, and KOQ could score a decent amount of points.

What about Thjr and Larkin for Tobias

[tiderulz]

Good post dude.

I think this is one of the most crucial decisions we will have to make, regarding our roster, in awhile.

I've analyzed it and have come to a lot of the same conclusions as you.

I also think our biggest need is a rim protecting PF, but I don't think we get that in a trade.

The most likely outcome is re-signing him and trading him. But that almost definitely means we take in at least 1 bad contract in return.

I think a good move would be to make a trade before the deadline and attempt to stay young, athletic, and fill a need.

Of course the other team would need confirmation with Tobias that he would re-sign with them, given a lucrative contract is involved.

There are a few teams with young, talented players who haven't really had a fair shake at playing time and could be useful.

Say he really did want to go to the Knicks, and they were interested in a trade, I think some good things could happen.

I wonder if they would accept an offer for Tim Hardaway JR, and Cleanthony Early.

A lot of Magic fans will say that is a bad deal I feel. But, actually I think that is a fantastic deal. Maybe even too good for us.

We would receive good contracts in return and keep cap flexibility.

Hardaway JR would eliminate the need to retain Ben Gordon and provide scoring off the bench.

Early could possibly fill in the role we've all wished Harkless would. He is a very athletic SF, with a long wing span, and defensive potential.

A 2nd string rotation of Fournier, Hardaway JR, Early, Frye, and KOQ could score a decent amount of points.

What about Thjr and Larkin for Tobias

another PG and another SG? why?

[VucchiManee]

I love Tobias, but unfortunately I don't see him becoming the "Star" you need to succeed in this league. Vucevic/Payton/Gordon/Oladipo/KOQ should be our young core, while adding an already proven commodity. A few players I wouldn't mind going after are Goran Dragic, LMA and Kawhi. The last two would be longshots but they're both definitely worth taking a look at. The most realistic move imo would be to go after Dragic and possibly S&T Harris for Dragic. Draft a SF/PF depending what we develop Aaron Gordon as.

[drsd]

another PG and another SG? why?

Orlando is desperate for a rotational overhall at the PF slot. Harris or Gordon-A need to slot there, or Harris needs to be shipped for a future starting PF. What other option does GM Hennigan have?


..

[BullsFTW]

Mirotic + McDermott for Harris + Harkless

Vuc/Dedmon
Mirotic/O'Quinn
Gordon/McDermott
Dipo/Fournier
Payton/?

this is obviously getting a bit greedy and Chicago wouldn't say yes. i'd be happy with straight up Mirotic/Harris swap, or a McDermott/Harkless swap, too.

I'd do McDermott + SAC 1st for Harris

[MagicFan32]

he's a good player but with this current coach, i don't think the fit is that good.
i favor signing tobes and bringing in a better coach

also you have to look at moving forward, how do vucc/tobes/frye/AG fit together? the defensive limitations are an issue

[Bensational]

Mirotic + McDermott for Harris + Harkless

Vuc/Dedmon
Mirotic/O'Quinn
Gordon/McDermott
Dipo/Fournier
Payton/?

this is obviously getting a bit greedy and Chicago wouldn't say yes. i'd be happy with straight up Mirotic/Harris swap, or a McDermott/Harkless swap, too.

I'd do McDermott + SAC 1st for Harris

sure. right after we do Harkless for Mirotic.

a Harris for Mirotic swap is fair for both sides.