Replacement thread for Head Coach: updated poll

[FrenchMagic]

Yes it's Messina.

[Optimus_Steel]

Stan has real hatred for Martins. Then again Martins may not be around much longer..

[Def Swami]

Let's be honest, how impressive has Stan been without a hall of fame center (Shaq,Dwight) to make his offense really work? Not only that but Stan has been even worse than Vogel in terms of developing their lottery picks and giving them minutes and a role in Detroit, just visit their board for confirmation on that. I think a lot of the intrigue about potentially bringing Stan back is just nostalgia getting in the way of the fact that he's not the coach he was here and this isn't near the roster or situation that Stan would have success with. Much better options out there for us.

What exactly is the right coach for us?

There are lot of reasons to not hire Stan. Developing and playing young players isn't one of them. Stan has a record of developing players (Redick, Gortat, Lee, Anderson). He started UD and Wade during his entire Heat stint. He played Stanley Johnson and KCP. But their overall cast of draft picks just aren't good. They've pissed away the draft under SVG. And they have a mandate to win-now under him. Obviously he's not going to play Henry Ellenson. I don't know how this myth of SVG hating young players has persisted.

Sure, you can roll the dice on a rookie head coach and hope for the best. Just don't be shocked if the Magic still have zero stars, no roster hierarchy, remain a bottom 10 team, he/she loses the locker room in 1 year and gets canned in 2. I like Stan because he's still respected around the league and can instantly change your culture and will hold players accountable. He has at least seen what a competent organization looked like. Maybe Stack is the next best young head coach. But it's hard for rookie head coaches to come in and command a locker room when things go sour.

Nevertheless, this whole debate on what kind of coach you want is somewhat moot. Both Stan and Stack will be fired in 2 seasons unless the Magic find a star player in that timespan. I don't even think Vogel is that horrid. He just happens to coach the Magic. Which comes back to the original question: what does the right coach look like? Does it ultimately matter who you hire between Stack or SVG if the roster is still terrible? Obviously, it's best to avoid hiring a bad coach or a coach who is known to be terrible (reminder that Randy Whittman is getting paid by the Magic as a coaching consultant ). It's also why I don't feel incredibly strong about firing Vogel. I'd be much more interested in flipping the roster first.

I don't really feel all that strong about if the Magic were to hire Stack or SVG or some assistant off the Spurs or Fizdale. I do like SVG because he knows how to take a roster and maximize its potential and isn't afraid to change his style of play to cater to his personnel. But, it would be the 5th coach in Aaron Gordon's career. There's no reason to believe that the next guy or gal doesn't meet the same fate as the predecessors until Weltman and Hammond get off their hands and actually do something.

[PrimeThyme]

Let's be honest, how impressive has Stan been without a hall of fame center (Shaq,Dwight) to make his offense really work? Not only that but Stan has been even worse than Vogel in terms of developing their lottery picks and giving them minutes and a role in Detroit, just visit their board for confirmation on that. I think a lot of the intrigue about potentially bringing Stan back is just nostalgia getting in the way of the fact that he's not the coach he was here and this isn't near the roster or situation that Stan would have success with. Much better options out there for us.

What exactly is the right coach for us?

There are lot of reasons to not hire Stan. Developing and playing young players isn't one of them. Stan has a record of developing players (Redick, Gortat, Lee, Anderson). He started UD and Wade during his entire Heat stint. He played Stanley Johnson and KCP. But their overall cast of draft picks just aren't good. They've pissed away the draft under SVG. And they have a mandate to win-now under him. Obviously he's not going to play Henry Ellenson. I don't know how this myth of SVG hating young players has persisted.

Sure, you can roll the dice on a rookie head coach and hope for the best. Just don't be shocked if the Magic still have zero stars, no roster hierarchy, remain a bottom 10 team, he/she loses the locker room in 1 year and gets canned in 2. I like Stan because he's still respected around the league and can instantly change your culture and will hold players accountable. He has at least seen what a competent organization looked like. Maybe Stack is the next best young head coach. But it's hard for rookie head coaches to come in and command a locker room when things go sour.

Nevertheless, this whole debate on what kind of coach you want is somewhat moot. Both Stan and Stack will be fired in 2 seasons unless the Magic find a star player in that timespan. I don't even think Vogel is that horrid. He just happens to coach the Magic. Which comes back to the original question: what does the right coach look like? Does it ultimately matter who you hire between Stack or SVG if the roster is still terrible? Obviously, it's best to avoid hiring a bad coach or a coach who is known to be terrible (reminder that Randy Whittman is getting paid by the Magic as a coaching consultant ). It's also why I don't feel incredibly strong about firing Vogel. I'd be much more interested in flipping the roster first.

I don't really feel all that strong about if the Magic were to hire Stack or SVG or some assistant off the Spurs or Fizdale. I do like SVG because he knows how to take a roster and maximize its potential and isn't afraid to change his style of play to cater to his personnel. But, it would be the 5th coach in Aaron Gordon's career. There's no reason to believe that the next guy or gal doesn't meet the same fate as the predecessors until Weltman and Hammond get off their hands and actually do something.

I posted it earlier in this thread and gave my reasoning for it but Nick Nurse checks all the boxes for me. A unique offensive-minded coach credited for completely changing the Raptors offense this season that believes in playing and developing youth. The Raptors connection with Weltman would be there and he is the exact coach id go for since he is from a strong culture and has shown the ability to revolutionize an offense which is what we need. There was a lot of selfish one on one ball going on with the Raptors offense last year and he got them to buy into a pass-first style of play that has completely changed everything for them. I think AG, in particular, needs a coach like this. He actually is a gifted passer when he is asked to be one but too often he gets in the habit of solely looking for his shot as a lot of the longtime players on this team do. I think Nurse could change things for us.

Could he fail just like all the other coaches the last 5 years? Sure. But id take my chances with an up and coming assistant like him versus a nostalgia hire in Stan.

[tiderulz]

Let's be honest, how impressive has Stan been without a hall of fame center (Shaq,Dwight) to make his offense really work? Not only that but Stan has been even worse than Vogel in terms of developing their lottery picks and giving them minutes and a role in Detroit, just visit their board for confirmation on that. I think a lot of the intrigue about potentially bringing Stan back is just nostalgia getting in the way of the fact that he's not the coach he was here and this isn't near the roster or situation that Stan would have success with. Much better options out there for us.

What exactly is the right coach for us?

There are lot of reasons to not hire Stan. Developing and playing young players isn't one of them. Stan has a record of developing players (Redick, Gortat, Lee, Anderson). He started UD and Wade during his entire Heat stint. He played Stanley Johnson and KCP. But their overall cast of draft picks just aren't good. They've pissed away the draft under SVG. And they have a mandate to win-now under him. Obviously he's not going to play Henry Ellenson. I don't know how this myth of SVG hating young players has persisted.

Sure, you can roll the dice on a rookie head coach and hope for the best. Just don't be shocked if the Magic still have zero stars, no roster hierarchy, remain a bottom 10 team, he/she loses the locker room in 1 year and gets canned in 2. I like Stan because he's still respected around the league and can instantly change your culture and will hold players accountable. He has at least seen what a competent organization looked like. Maybe Stack is the next best young head coach. But it's hard for rookie head coaches to come in and command a locker room when things go sour.

Nevertheless, this whole debate on what kind of coach you want is somewhat moot. Both Stan and Stack will be fired in 2 seasons unless the Magic find a star player in that timespan. I don't even think Vogel is that horrid. He just happens to coach the Magic. Which comes back to the original question: what does the right coach look like? Does it ultimately matter who you hire between Stack or SVG if the roster is still terrible? Obviously, it's best to avoid hiring a bad coach or a coach who is known to be terrible (reminder that Randy Whittman is getting paid by the Magic as a coaching consultant ). It's also why I don't feel incredibly strong about firing Vogel. I'd be much more interested in flipping the roster first.

I don't really feel all that strong about if the Magic were to hire Stack or SVG or some assistant off the Spurs or Fizdale. I do like SVG because he knows how to take a roster and maximize its potential and isn't afraid to change his style of play to cater to his personnel. But, it would be the 5th coach in Aaron Gordon's career. There's no reason to believe that the next guy or gal doesn't meet the same fate as the predecessors until Weltman and Hammond get off their hands and actually do something.

you're attributing an awful lot to Stan. Lee was a 4 year player and came in ready. He isnt much more of a player now than he was then. Wade came in and while Stan played him (as you would a #5 pick) Wade's game didnt develop any under SVG. Gortat, Redick, Anderson, took an extremely long time to "develop" and none of them developed into stars. Plenty of other players languished for years under SVG and didnt develop, but went other places and played well right away. The only great development job i will give SVG is his work with Dwight.

[PennytoShaq]

I love Stan, but yeah - this is too much. The one thing I love about Stan is he was creative with lineups and his X and O skills destroy Vogel. But it's time for a different style of coach. SVG doesn't come here and do anything that we didn't see in DET.

The reason that I don't believe the next coach will be a certain failure is because I think this roster will start to make a lot more sense after the summer. Additionally, Frank just never showed that he can become a small ball coach. Hennigan was trying to build a small ball team. I am not saying he succeeded, but I can about guarantee that he did not plan on building a team with 2 bigs. I think Frank convinced him to do that when Rob asked him to coach the team.

It's just hard for me to see a coach say that "we will zig when they zag" and then it fails and he talks about small ball like THAT is the secret. It's just not genuine and it's not a scheme that he has shown he fully understands (ex - usage of the PF in pick and rolls) . When we got Biz, I was happy because I truly thought the rotation was Ibaka/AG and Biz. Totally expected Vuc would be traded for a PG or wing.

So anyway, it's pretty clear to me that Welham are going to do something. Literally everything they have said is basically what has happened, and they just said they will be making changes. I bet they do bring in a young, new coach and turn this team into what we have been wanting to see - which is a roster that actually makes sense that runs a much more modern offense and defense. In essence, we will start looking more like the Raptors do and that is fine by me.

[Def Swami]

Let's be honest, how impressive has Stan been without a hall of fame center (Shaq,Dwight) to make his offense really work? Not only that but Stan has been even worse than Vogel in terms of developing their lottery picks and giving them minutes and a role in Detroit, just visit their board for confirmation on that. I think a lot of the intrigue about potentially bringing Stan back is just nostalgia getting in the way of the fact that he's not the coach he was here and this isn't near the roster or situation that Stan would have success with. Much better options out there for us.

What exactly is the right coach for us?

There are lot of reasons to not hire Stan. Developing and playing young players isn't one of them. Stan has a record of developing players (Redick, Gortat, Lee, Anderson). He started UD and Wade during his entire Heat stint. He played Stanley Johnson and KCP. But their overall cast of draft picks just aren't good. They've pissed away the draft under SVG. And they have a mandate to win-now under him. Obviously he's not going to play Henry Ellenson. I don't know how this myth of SVG hating young players has persisted.

Sure, you can roll the dice on a rookie head coach and hope for the best. Just don't be shocked if the Magic still have zero stars, no roster hierarchy, remain a bottom 10 team, he/she loses the locker room in 1 year and gets canned in 2. I like Stan because he's still respected around the league and can instantly change your culture and will hold players accountable. He has at least seen what a competent organization looked like. Maybe Stack is the next best young head coach. But it's hard for rookie head coaches to come in and command a locker room when things go sour.

Nevertheless, this whole debate on what kind of coach you want is somewhat moot. Both Stan and Stack will be fired in 2 seasons unless the Magic find a star player in that timespan. I don't even think Vogel is that horrid. He just happens to coach the Magic. Which comes back to the original question: what does the right coach look like? Does it ultimately matter who you hire between Stack or SVG if the roster is still terrible? Obviously, it's best to avoid hiring a bad coach or a coach who is known to be terrible (reminder that Randy Whittman is getting paid by the Magic as a coaching consultant ). It's also why I don't feel incredibly strong about firing Vogel. I'd be much more interested in flipping the roster first.

I don't really feel all that strong about if the Magic were to hire Stack or SVG or some assistant off the Spurs or Fizdale. I do like SVG because he knows how to take a roster and maximize its potential and isn't afraid to change his style of play to cater to his personnel. But, it would be the 5th coach in Aaron Gordon's career. There's no reason to believe that the next guy or gal doesn't meet the same fate as the predecessors until Weltman and Hammond get off their hands and actually do something.

you're attributing an awful lot to Stan. Lee was a 4 year player and came in ready. He isnt much more of a player now than he was then. Wade came in and while Stan played him (as you would a #5 pick) Wade's game didnt develop any under SVG. Gortat, Redick, Anderson, took an extremely long time to "develop" and none of them developed into stars. Plenty of other players languished for years under SVG and didnt develop, but went other places and played well right away. The only great development job i will give SVG is his work with Dwight.

I'm not attributing it to him. Ryan Anderson and JJ Redick did during a podcast 2 years ago.

“I think just in terms of intangibles and characteristics I think any NBA player should have, I think he taught me those things and he reinforced those things in me — professionalism, accountability, playing sort of hard and the same way every game, not taking any nights off, all that stuff, because he lives that,” Redick said. “I see how hard he works, how much he invests in his craft, and so as a player, playing for him, you really have no choice but to do the same.”

The two were together in Orlando, where Van Gundy coached Redick starting in his second season. And even though Redick’s minutes actually went down that year, he began forming a relationship that would shape his NBA career.

In addition to reinforcing the idea that self accountability was a necessary trait, on the court, Van Gundy helped shape Redick into a valuable defender despite athletic limitations that keep him from being a 1-on-1 stopper.

“Pretty much any sort of team defense concept that’s pertinent to modern NBA basketball, I learned from Stan,” Redick said.

As did Gortat.

SBNation.com: How important was Stan for you?

Gortat: He was a godfather of my career. He basically taught me everything. He gave me the discipline, he told me the most important things in basketball. He taught me what to do, how to act and how to prepare yourself for the game. He taught me basically everything about the game, this guy is always going to be the guy that I'm going to always appreciate for everything he did for me. If one day he's going to be back in the league, I would like to play for him.

I brought up Lee, UD, and Wade because PrimeShaq insinuated that Stan doesn't play rookies, which isn't true. He has played Stanley Johnson in Detroit, but Johnson just sucks. He plays the players that are worthy of playing. At the same time, other young players have developed under him.

Again, it is totally fair to not want SVG. But, it being because of young players is just a faulty reason.

[Def Swami]

Let's be honest, how impressive has Stan been without a hall of fame center (Shaq,Dwight) to make his offense really work? Not only that but Stan has been even worse than Vogel in terms of developing their lottery picks and giving them minutes and a role in Detroit, just visit their board for confirmation on that. I think a lot of the intrigue about potentially bringing Stan back is just nostalgia getting in the way of the fact that he's not the coach he was here and this isn't near the roster or situation that Stan would have success with. Much better options out there for us.

What exactly is the right coach for us?

There are lot of reasons to not hire Stan. Developing and playing young players isn't one of them. Stan has a record of developing players (Redick, Gortat, Lee, Anderson). He started UD and Wade during his entire Heat stint. He played Stanley Johnson and KCP. But their overall cast of draft picks just aren't good. They've pissed away the draft under SVG. And they have a mandate to win-now under him. Obviously he's not going to play Henry Ellenson. I don't know how this myth of SVG hating young players has persisted.

Sure, you can roll the dice on a rookie head coach and hope for the best. Just don't be shocked if the Magic still have zero stars, no roster hierarchy, remain a bottom 10 team, he/she loses the locker room in 1 year and gets canned in 2. I like Stan because he's still respected around the league and can instantly change your culture and will hold players accountable. He has at least seen what a competent organization looked like. Maybe Stack is the next best young head coach. But it's hard for rookie head coaches to come in and command a locker room when things go sour.

Nevertheless, this whole debate on what kind of coach you want is somewhat moot. Both Stan and Stack will be fired in 2 seasons unless the Magic find a star player in that timespan. I don't even think Vogel is that horrid. He just happens to coach the Magic. Which comes back to the original question: what does the right coach look like? Does it ultimately matter who you hire between Stack or SVG if the roster is still terrible? Obviously, it's best to avoid hiring a bad coach or a coach who is known to be terrible (reminder that Randy Whittman is getting paid by the Magic as a coaching consultant ). It's also why I don't feel incredibly strong about firing Vogel. I'd be much more interested in flipping the roster first.

I don't really feel all that strong about if the Magic were to hire Stack or SVG or some assistant off the Spurs or Fizdale. I do like SVG because he knows how to take a roster and maximize its potential and isn't afraid to change his style of play to cater to his personnel. But, it would be the 5th coach in Aaron Gordon's career. There's no reason to believe that the next guy or gal doesn't meet the same fate as the predecessors until Weltman and Hammond get off their hands and actually do something.

I posted it earlier in this thread and gave my reasoning for it but Nick Nurse checks all the boxes for me. A unique offensive-minded coach credited for completely changing the Raptors offense this season that believes in playing and developing youth. The Raptors connection with Weltman would be there and he is the exact coach id go for since he is from a strong culture and has shown the ability to revolutionize an offense which is what we need. There was a lot of selfish one on one ball going on with the Raptors offense last year and he got them to buy into a pass-first style of play that has completely changed everything for them. I think AG, in particular, needs a coach like this. He actually is a gifted passer when he is asked to be one but too often he gets in the habit of solely looking for his shot as a lot of the longtime players on this team do. I think Nurse could change things for us.

Could he fail just like all the other coaches the last 5 years? Sure. But id take my chances with an up and coming assistant like him versus a nostalgia hire in Stan.

Can he change the culture though? Can he hold players accountable? Preaching an offense is different than executing one, and the personnel has to change drastically for the Magic to play anything like the Raptors. It's like when the Bulls hired Fred Hoiberg. Great guy, plays his young players, preaches an uptempo, selfless game. And they're 8th in lottery odds again.

I could be wrong, but rookie head coaches rarely work out on really young, bad teams. If you're going to go down that route, it's important to have a strong culture to stand on, which the Magic still lack. It doesn't have to be Stan, but whoever they bring will first have to reset the tone of the ball club and raise the bar that players meet and hold folks more accountable. I like Stan, because at least I know he'll give us that, and IMHO that's the first and most important hurdle for the franchise. So many players have left the Magic and commented on how awful the culture in Orlando is compared to their new team (Oladipo, Harkless, O'Quinn, even BBD). I really don't want to hear Jonathan Isaac or Aaron Gordon giving an interview to SLAM in 3 years about how much better their next teams are in terms of professionalism and camaraderie. And in terms of offense, Stan is one of the pioneers of small ball and prioritizing 3's and layups over mid-range shots. If anything, I think that's a positive.

Not sure how many listened to Hammond on MDT the other day. I did a mini wrap up, but excluded a point which is also adjusts the context of how I view this team going forward. He genuinely believes the Magic would have made the playoffs if they were healthy all season. He says it reminded him of the season the Bucks aimed for the playoffs, were still bad, and landed Jabari Parker with the #2 pick, and then ended up in the playoffs the next year. Their plan isn't to tank next season. They're going all in on playoffs. Just keep it in mind.

[zaymon]

Its a good plan only when you think you can attract big time free agents like boston,

[FrenchMagic]

Nick Nurse seems a very good choice.

[drsd]

Elsewhere, more franchises will likely join the coaching carousel this summer. The Knicks and Magic are among those teams expected to make changes, and according to The New York Times‘ Marc Stein in his latest newsletter, those two could let their coaches go and start their searches “as early as Thursday.”

LINK

[tiderulz]

is it firing? or early parole? he doesnt seem to want to be here anymore himself

[paperboymafia]

I remember when Vogel was hired I came to the forums to simply say "finally, something to get excited over"

Lesson learned, even in my mid-ish 30s, you get caught up in hype and wishes for your team to finally compete.

[Blue_and_Whte]

Elsewhere, more franchises will likely join the coaching carousel this summer. The Knicks and Magic are among those teams expected to make changes, and according to The New York Times‘ Marc Stein in his latest newsletter, those two could let their coaches go and start their searches “as early as Thursday.”

LINK

eeesh... Here we go again. Searching for the next guy this board will want fired after two years.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

[pepe1991]

I really can't name single coach that i can put on my wish list.
NBA is so much star driven that coaching is afterthought. If you have Lebron you can win even with Tyron Lue, or should i say, despite Tyron Lue?
Even if we hire some high IQ guy who is great with Xs and Os our players seem too dumb to execute it. Simmons first, that's why he never played for Spurs.

[SOUL]

I really can't name single coach that i can put on my wish list.
NBA is so much star driven that coaching is afterthought. If you have Lebron you can win even with Tyron Lue, or should i say, despite Tyron Lue?
Even if we hire some high IQ guy who is great with Xs and Os our players seem too dumb to execute it. Simmons first, that's why he never played for Spurs.

29 teams don't have LeBron though. Also any coach we hire should be made with future roster moves being considered in the case of dumb players. This is a franchise that hired notorious young player hating Skiles to try to bring a young team forward. Regardless of how much he was able to get out of them for a short amount of time, there was no way that would ever last more than 2 seasons. Same with Vogel. Bringing over a defensive minded coach that had a rookie as his best defender.

[fklt]

I'm not attributing it to him. Ryan Anderson and JJ Redick did during a podcast 2 years ago.

“I think just in terms of intangibles and characteristics I think any NBA player should have, I think he taught me those things and he reinforced those things in me — professionalism, accountability, playing sort of hard and the same way every game, not taking any nights off, all that stuff, because he lives that,” Redick said. “I see how hard he works, how much he invests in his craft, and so as a player, playing for him, you really have no choice but to do the same.”

The two were together in Orlando, where Van Gundy coached Redick starting in his second season. And even though Redick’s minutes actually went down that year, he began forming a relationship that would shape his NBA career.

In addition to reinforcing the idea that self accountability was a necessary trait, on the court, Van Gundy helped shape Redick into a valuable defender despite athletic limitations that keep him from being a 1-on-1 stopper.

“Pretty much any sort of team defense concept that’s pertinent to modern NBA basketball, I learned from Stan,” Redick said.

As did Gortat.

SBNation.com: How important was Stan for you?

Gortat: He was a godfather of my career. He basically taught me everything. He gave me the discipline, he told me the most important things in basketball. He taught me what to do, how to act and how to prepare yourself for the game. He taught me basically everything about the game, this guy is always going to be the guy that I'm going to always appreciate for everything he did for me. If one day he's going to be back in the league, I would like to play for him.

I brought up Lee, UD, and Wade because PrimeShaq insinuated that Stan doesn't play rookies, which isn't true. He has played Stanley Johnson in Detroit, but Johnson just sucks. He plays the players that are worthy of playing. At the same time, other young players have developed under him.

Again, it is totally fair to not want SVG. But, it being because of young players is just a faulty reason.

hedo was stan's success as well. he was just a guy in the nba before him and became the key of a championship run. i think he has a quote where he said "i want stan to be my coach forever".

[Optimus_Steel]

Has anyone questioned why did we mysteriously hire Randy Wittman? Do not be shocked sadly if it ends up being Randy Wittman. Oh man this board would really go off the rails...(has already but will be worse).

[rcklsscognition]

With this news, I feel like this is the biggest summer of the rebuild. A lot of different threads to pull this summer in regards to the organization. Hopefully this season we got the framework and organization in place, with all the new hires getting settled into their jobs, and this summer the plan goes into full effect. Assuming there is a plan, and there appears to be.

[MagicFan101]

Maybe he does great, but something doesn’t feel right about Stack for me. I don’t know what it is.