What's next?

[Knightro]

17 mil is a whole lotta money to almost every one. In the NBA it's not. Most rosters are filled with a handful of big contracts and a bunch of smallish few million per year guys. There are several crippling contracts of guys getting paid 30-40-even 50 mil per year. Fultz and Isaac at the highest paid on the magic roster of 17 mil each is not bad. And the biggest derailment for both in locking up bigger money is health and stability. Neither are working for them so I don't see huge pay raises for iether however I do feel like they should both be kept and treated like part of the core were building around

$17M is a lot of money for a bottom 5 NBA starting PG.

[Knightro]

Thinking the Magic's biggest weakness is shooting guard doesn't mean point guard isn't also a significant weakness.

Thinking Fultz is the Magic's best option at point guard right now in this moment doesn't mean he's a good option compared to what you could get.

Hypothetically if you consider Fultz to be a C+ starting PG and Suggs/Anthony to both be D+ caliber, Fultz is still only a C+, ya know?

You're striving to find someone much better than a C+ to be your long-term guy.

[anothermagicfan]

Thinking the Magic's biggest weakness is shooting guard doesn't mean point guard isn't also a significant weakness.

Thinking Fultz is the Magic's best option at point guard right now in this moment doesn't mean he's a good option compared to what you could get.

Hypothetically if you consider Fultz to be a C+ starting PG and Suggs/Anthony to both be D+ caliber, Fultz is still only a C+, ya know?

You're striving to find someone much better than a C+ to be your long-term guy.

Hypothetically if you are the warriors with Steph at point, is he the same Steph curry winning championships without klay at the 2 guard knocking down 3s like crazy?

[Knightro]

Hypothetically if you are the warriors with Steph at point, is he the same Steph curry winning championships without klay at the 2 guard knocking down 3s like crazy?

I have no idea what you’re even getting at here.

But I do know the Warriors won one of their 4 titles with Klay averaging just 15 PPG and shooting 39% from the floor in 17 playoff games.

Curry is and has always been the transcendent star for Golden State.

[Skin]

17 mil is a whole lotta money to almost every one. In the NBA it's not. Most rosters are filled with a handful of big contracts and a bunch of smallish few million per year guys. There are several crippling contracts of guys getting paid 30-40-even 50 mil per year. Fultz and Isaac at the highest paid on the magic roster of 17 mil each is not bad. And the biggest derailment for both in locking up bigger money is health and stability. Neither are working for them so I don't see huge pay raises for iether however I do feel like they should both be kept and treated like part of the core were building around

$17M is a lot of money for a bottom 5 NBA starting PG.

You can't use this argument against him if you're not gonna give him any credit for the team's winning percentage with him.

You're just coming across as a hater instead of objective.

[Skin]

Thinking the Magic's biggest weakness is shooting guard doesn't mean point guard isn't also a significant weakness.

Thinking Fultz is the Magic's best option at point guard right now in this moment doesn't mean he's a good option compared to what you could get.

Hypothetically if you consider Fultz to be a C+ starting PG and Suggs/Anthony to both be D+ caliber, Fultz is still only a C+, ya know?

You're striving to find someone much better than a C+ to be your long-term guy.

I've always been in the camp if you can upgrade Fultz, then you do it.

But if we're looking at the draft or FA to do that in the offseason, the options are slim to none.

[pepe1991]

17 mil is a whole lotta money to almost every one. In the NBA it's not. Most rosters are filled with a handful of big contracts and a bunch of smallish few million per year guys. There are several crippling contracts of guys getting paid 30-40-even 50 mil per year. Fultz and Isaac at the highest paid on the magic roster of 17 mil each is not bad. And the biggest derailment for both in locking up bigger money is health and stability. Neither are working for them so I don't see huge pay raises for iether however I do feel like they should both be kept and treated like part of the core were building around

$17M is a lot of money for a bottom 5 NBA starting PG.

You can't use this argument against him if you're not gonna give him any credit for the team's winning percentage with him.

You're just coming across as a hater instead of objective.

I mean...all his stats are better when Magic lose.

His TS goes from 52% to 57% in losses, and his PPGs go up.

It's kind a obvious that team gets worst with his increased usage.

Also it's hard to debate he isn't top 5 worst starting PG.

Curry
Lillard
Jrue Holiday
Lamelo
Lonzo
Smart
Young
Murray
Fox
Garland
Harden
Haliburton
SGA
Brunson
CP3
Vleet
Doncic
McCulum
Morant
Kyrie

That's 20. So at apsolute best ,he is top 10 worst. And we can argue he is worst than Dinwiddie, Russell,Brogdon, whatever is left from Lowry, Clarkson....or that he will be much worst than Ivey next year.

[Skin]

$17M is a lot of money for a bottom 5 NBA starting PG.

You can't use this argument against him if you're not gonna give him any credit for the team's winning percentage with him.

You're just coming across as a hater instead of objective.

I mean...all his stats are better when Magic lose.

His TS goes from 52% to 57% in losses, and his PPGs go up.

It's kind a obvious that team gets worst with his increased usage.

Also it's hard to debate he isn't top 5 worst starting PG.

Curry
Lillard
Jrue Holiday
Lamelo
Lonzo
Smart
Young
Murray
Fox
Garland
Harden
Haliburton
SGA
Brunson
CP3
Vleet
Doncic
McCulum
Morant
Kyrie

That's 20. So at apsolute best ,he is top 10 worst. And we can argue he is worst than Dinwiddie, Russell,Brogdon, whatever is left from Lowry, Clarkson....or that he will be much worst than Ivey next year.

Scoring more in Team losses... is that a relevant sign of anything if you evaluate that across the league?

Also, a bunch of those names are SGs or players making more than he does or on rookie deals.

Since he's so terrible to you, how much do you think he'll be able to get on an extension?

[pepe1991]

You can't use this argument against him if you're not gonna give him any credit for the team's winning percentage with him.

You're just coming across as a hater instead of objective.

I mean...all his stats are better when Magic lose.

His TS goes from 52% to 57% in losses, and his PPGs go up.

It's kind a obvious that team gets worst with his increased usage.

Also it's hard to debate he isn't top 5 worst starting PG.

Curry
Lillard
Jrue Holiday
Lamelo
Lonzo
Smart
Young
Murray
Fox
Garland
Harden
Haliburton
SGA
Brunson
CP3
Vleet
Doncic
McCulum
Morant
Kyrie

That's 20. So at apsolute best ,he is top 10 worst. And we can argue he is worst than Dinwiddie, Russell,Brogdon, whatever is left from Lowry, Clarkson....or that he will be much worst than Ivey next year.

Scoring more in Team losses... is that a relevant sign of anything if you evaluate that across the league?

Also, a bunch of those names are SGs or players making more than he does or on rookie deals.

Since he's so terrible to you, how much do you think he'll be able to get on an extension?

It's relevant because it shows his better individual games don't translate into wins .
You can't tell me that you belive 11,8 ppg, 5 apg , and 52% TS, + 2,0 plus minus is driving foce behind wins as starter.

For comparison sake, Cole Anthony averages 14 ppg, 5 apg on 64% TS in wins. His plus minus is +11. That's tengable impact on winning, when he is hot.

Who are "shooting guards" from my list? Maybe Clarkson, but that's about it. I also didn't mention Conley, so it would still make no difference in case for Fultz as top 5 worst .

Since he's so terrible to you, how much do you think he'll be able to get on an extension?

I don't know, but i do know this is his biggest FA in his life and he will look for massive payday. 4years $100M ? Maybe. I don't know.


Right now it's very hard evaluate Magic individula players. Team tends to win more often than before, but they do it in very unorthodox fashion.
In last 10 games Magic bench has 5th best net rating and is second most productive ( PPGs) bench in nba.
That bench is made out of : Cole, Bol, from time to time Isaac, Mortiz Wagner and Suggs.
And do you know what all of them have in common? All of them are upcomming free agents in next year and half.

[Audi]

I mean...all his stats are better when Magic lose.

His TS goes from 52% to 57% in losses, and his PPGs go up.

It's kind a obvious that team gets worst with his increased usage.

No. Perfect example of twisting stats for a nonsensical outcome. What’s obvious from all of this is that when our “big 3” starters are struggling, Fultz is “next man up”. Just look back on recent losses - all him playing well meant is that he tried but ultimately failed to overcome sub-par team - and more specifically, SL - performances. Things like… the entire team shooting in the low 20%s from 3…or our two star bigs grabbing a combined - one rebound.

[drsd]

And while I find PER to be one of the more useless stats out there - according to John Hollinger's own reference guide, a 16.1 PER ranks as a slightly above-average player, which is all Fultz is on his very best day from a box score perspective (which is all PER factors).

A PER of 16 would rank a player in the 100-150 range. I think that is a fair evaluation of Fultz. By the eye test, I would put him in the top-40% of NBA players.


..

[drsd]

So you think the Magic will pay him because of his teammates and not his own merit. You're lying to yourself.

He'll get according to his worth. WeHam has showed more often than not, that they are able to sign guys on good deals.

This is all well and good, except it ignores the fact that this exact same front office has quite literally already paid him far more than he’s worth on his current contract.

He’s not a $17M a year player and they happily gave him that when no one else was remotely interested in paying him anything close to that at that time.

17 mil is a whole lotta money to almost every one. In the NBA it's not. Most rosters are filled with a handful of big contracts and a bunch of smallish few million per year guys. There are several crippling contracts of guys getting paid 30-40-even 50 mil per year. Fultz and Isaac at the highest paid on the magic roster of 17 mil each is not bad. And the biggest derailment for both in locking up bigger money is health and stability. Neither are working for them so I don't see huge pay raises for iether however I do feel like they should both be kept and treated like part of the core were building around

Orlando "had" to pay Fultz and Isaac large contracts (and Bamba and Harris) so the team would meet is min spending levels. All these contracts were not about value, but about creating cap flexibility for the future.

But: that future is now. The 2023 off-season will have a lot of medium-term deals rather than all these one-and-the-we-can-Waive deals.

I think the market for Isaac and Fultz will not keep these players at their current salary levels. Bt as stated by anothermagicfan, 17M is actually not a lot of money in the NBA these days.

Are Isaac and Fultz worth more than a MLE-level contract? No. Will they get more? Probably.

But not 20M a year.


..

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[drsd]

I respect your opinion and am genuinely curious why you think the Suggs and Fultz backcourt does not work at all.

A modern NBA team needs one of the guards to be a high percentage shooter from distance. If Suggs or Fultz is a starting PG, then that player needs to be at the 2-slot.

Frankly if I could just pick starters for this team, based on where their contracts would land, to develop F-Wagner and Banchero as certain max-paid players, as the starters, I would add Alex Caruso as the PG and Luke Kennard as the SG. But I don't get a vote in this, do I?

Whatever we imagine Suggs can be, for me, Alex Caruso is already that player. And Luke Kennard can simply camp out behind the line on offense. How hard is it do do that?

..

[drsd]

Thinking the Magic's biggest weakness is shooting guard doesn't mean point guard isn't also a significant weakness.

Thinking Fultz is the Magic's best option at point guard right now in this moment doesn't mean he's a good option compared to what you could get.

Hypothetically if you consider Fultz to be a C+ starting PG and Suggs/Anthony to both be D+ caliber, Fultz is still only a C+, ya know?

You're striving to find someone much better than a C+ to be your long-term guy.

I agree with this.

I am just exhausted with G-Harris doing nothing on offense. It is a grind see the Magic playing 4 on 5 ball in half-court sets.
(( to be fair, a lot of that is on coach, not Harris ))

[pepe1991]

I mean...all his stats are better when Magic lose.

His TS goes from 52% to 57% in losses, and his PPGs go up.

It's kind a obvious that team gets worst with his increased usage.

No. Perfect example of twisting stats for a nonsensical outcome. What’s obvious from all of this is that when our “big 3” starters are struggling, Fultz is “next man up”. Just look back on recent losses - all him playing well meant is that he tried but ultimately failed to overcome sub-par team - and more specifically, SL - performances. Things like… the entire team shooting in the low 20%s from 3…or our two star bigs grabbing a combined - one rebound.

It would hold merrit if stats in wins vs losses to guys like Wagner don't paint very different picture.
I already above mentioned Cole and how great his stats are in wins ( especially compared to awful performances in losses).

Now look at Fraz Wagner's stats in wins vs losses.



When Wagner is effective ( 50-40 split) Magic win.

It's even more on the nose clear with Paolo



It makes no logical sense why would starter preform so much better in losses than wins. For example, Carter performes pretty much the same. Paolo and Franz performances swing games in favor of L vs W, and Cole's performances 100% impact team's winning.


Fultz is not great defender and on offense he is not elite playmaker ( literally never averaged 6 apg for a season) , nor he is elite scorer, nor he is volumen scorer, nor he brings any spacing.
He is just a guy who happend to be , today, slightly better than 5th overall pick PG, witch actually tells you more about 5th overall pick than him. Fultz, himself, is top 5 worst starting PGs in nba without really much questions about it.

Fultz is feelgood story that went nowhere. He is expensive backup PG who happends to start. Just like Payton was. Just because fans claimed he is better than "alternatives" never changed fact that Payton dragged his whole team down by just sucking life out of offense whenever he was out there.

Those two are copy past same player

[pepe1991]

This is all well and good, except it ignores the fact that this exact same front office has quite literally already paid him far more than he’s worth on his current contract.

He’s not a $17M a year player and they happily gave him that when no one else was remotely interested in paying him anything close to that at that time.

17 mil is a whole lotta money to almost every one. In the NBA it's not. Most rosters are filled with a handful of big contracts and a bunch of smallish few million per year guys. There are several crippling contracts of guys getting paid 30-40-even 50 mil per year. Fultz and Isaac at the highest paid on the magic roster of 17 mil each is not bad. And the biggest derailment for both in locking up bigger money is health and stability. Neither are working for them so I don't see huge pay raises for iether however I do feel like they should both be kept and treated like part of the core were building around

Orlando "had" to pay Fultz and Isaac large contracts (and Bamba and Harris) so the team would meet is min spending levels. All these contracts were not about value, but about creating cap flexibility for the future.

But: that future is now. The 2023 off-season will have a lot of medium-term deals rather than all these one-and-the-we-can-Waive deals.

I think the market for Isaac and Fultz will not keep these players at their current salary levels. Bt as stated by anothermagicfan, 17M is actually not a lot of money in the NBA these days.

Are Isaac and Fultz worth more than a MLE-level contract? No. Will they get more? Probably.

But not 20M a year.


..

..

eh. Bamba and Ross are living examples that front office tends to keep assets until they are assets no more.

it would have been so much better if Orlando traded Bamba 2-3 years ago. When he was "former 6th overall pick". Instad, they runned his value to a ground, resigned him , than traded him for nothing.
And they kept Ross selling price at hilarious "first round pick" level that nobody with any sanity would buy. And didn't buy. Up until they runned out of time to sell him, so they just had to vaiwe him.


Imo, they are so afraid of "bad "trades that they make so many mistakes by just doing nothing. Thinking nothing = no mistakes. Witch, in nba, simply is not true. Being reactive in league where being proactive is only path forward isn't very good place to be.

[drsd]

Imo, they are so afraid of "bad "trades that they make so many mistakes by just doing nothing. Thinking nothing = no mistakes. Witch, in nba, simply is not true. Being reactive in league where being proactive is only path forward isn't very good place to be.

By "they", I assume you mean the culture of NBA GMs / PBOs. And I agree.

But what is baffling is the course correct that occurs: buyout players and have them resign with another team. Basically these are indirect trades. So, why bother? Just trade the player.

Example: if a team offered a top-59 protected pick for Ross, why not just accept it?


..

[Bergmaniac]

There is a history of the magic playing winning basketball with Fultz on the floor.

No, there is not.

Fultz's net rating in 2019-20: -1.7
Fultz's net rating in 2020-21: -6.5
Fultz's net rating in 2021-22: -5.3
Fultz's net rating in 2022/23: -6.4

I don't see any "winning basketball" here, do you? We have been outscored when he has been on the floor throughout his Magic career, and by a lot except in his first season.

[VFX]

17 mil is a whole lotta money to almost every one. In the NBA it's not. Most rosters are filled with a handful of big contracts and a bunch of smallish few million per year guys. There are several crippling contracts of guys getting paid 30-40-even 50 mil per year. Fultz and Isaac at the highest paid on the magic roster of 17 mil each is not bad. And the biggest derailment for both in locking up bigger money is health and stability. Neither are working for them so I don't see huge pay raises for iether however I do feel like they should both be kept and treated like part of the core were building around

$17M is a lot of money for a bottom 5 NBA starting PG.

You can't use this argument against him if you're not gonna give him any credit for the team's winning percentage with him.

You're just coming across as a hater instead of objective.

How? It’s a factually true statement.

Bol was also involved when the team was winning. Does that mean he should be the starting PF and paid like one?

You could argue some of the best time we’ve seen from Orlando’s back court was with Cole and Suggs. Im not sure where you are getting that Fultz has shown anything this season to say he isn’t one of the worst starting point guards in the league.

[JoshuaPotter]

Those two are copy past same player

This is not meant to be a personal attack. I got to the end and my brain screamed OMG.



I want Fultz to be good. I want our team to be good. Fultz is one of 2 places we can obviously upgrade.

Unlike some people here I am OK with us looking for SG answer in a deep draft and finding a PG in free agency. I made a post yesterday suggesting who is going to pay 4/100 million for Fultz unless we outbid ourselves? When you beg the question of who would sign him, I got the vibe he is closer to exiting the league then making 4/100.