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Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon

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Should we resign Vuc/Ross

Yes
43
34%
Yes, but just Vuc
9
7%
Yes, but just Ross
51
40%
No
23
18%
 
Total votes: 126

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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#1441 » by Bensational » Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:25 am

drsd wrote:
SOUL wrote:That's the same team as this year with Fultz + Kaminsky + a rookie. Don't see how we turn into the Sixers of this past year unless some roles change.


Well this is super easy to answer: over the last 30 games of the season, Orlando had a massive W-L rate over Philly. In other words, over the last 31 games, record wise, the Magic was a MUCH better team than the Sixers (something like +13 vs. +5 in net wins).

EDIT: indeed this is why I said Orlando played like a 3 seed over its closing games.


..


It's hard to expect end of season momentum to carry over into the next season. The Magic closed strong, because there was a finish line in sight and they were fighting for their first playoff birth in 7 years. Will they carry that same sense of urgency into game 1 next season? Clifford's previous teams in Charlotte didn't.

If we run the same squad back next season, the biggest improvement I would be looking for is if the team can curb the December/January slide they routinely take. That alone should boost the season record.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#1442 » by SOUL » Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:26 am

Also, I always see Jan-April attributed to us playing bad teams or teams that don't try (when talking about a certain ex-player's stats) here, so when we made our run, it was basically against a bunch of bad teams/teams not playing their stars, right?

Not seeing 50 wins.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#1443 » by Bensational » Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:30 am

SOUL wrote:Also, I always see Jan-April attributed to us playing bad teams or teams that don't try (when talking about a certain ex-player's stats) here, so when we made our run, it was basically against a bunch of bad teams/teams not playing their stars, right?

Not seeing 50 wins.


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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#1444 » by Nyce_1 » Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:05 am

Solid Snake wrote:Sell me on keldon Johnson? I just don't see what others do...... His game seems very..... Vanilla to me if that makes sense.... Bland, but maybe I'm wrong.

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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#1445 » by ezzzp » Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:03 am

SOUL wrote:Also, I always see Jan-April attributed to us playing bad teams or teams that don't try (when talking about a certain ex-player's stats) here, so when we made our run, it was basically against a bunch of bad teams/teams not playing their stars, right?

Not seeing 50 wins.


Its a whole lot tougher to go from 42 to 50 wins, than it is to go from 25 to 42.

I think a better gauge of progress is to see them stay at or above .500 for the majority of the season and limiting losing streaks to 1-3 games. This would show a more consistent unit. Plus they'd be sustaining their prior performance vs teams that will now be more prepared and not taking them as lightly as they had in the past.

One thing that I believe is very sustainable with roster continuity is the defense. That January to April stretch was primarily carried by the Magic's defense.

The Magic had the NBA's 3d best defense from January 1st to the end of the season. They were also the #1 Defensive Rebounding team during that stretch.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#1446 » by yoyojw17 » Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:32 am

SOUL wrote:Also, I always see Jan-April attributed to us playing bad teams or teams that don't try (when talking about a certain ex-player's stats) here, so when we made our run, it was basically against a bunch of bad teams/teams not playing their stars, right?

Not seeing 50 wins.

So essentially...1/3 of the entire season is straight garbage is what you're saying? :-/ I find that a little hard to believe. But that's not to say that what you think has no merit because it certainly does carry weight. Just saying the truth lies somewhere in between. But yes.... for me... that in between is still a 50 win team. hahaha
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#1447 » by SOUL » Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:36 am

yoyojw17 wrote:
SOUL wrote:Also, I always see Jan-April attributed to us playing bad teams or teams that don't try (when talking about a certain ex-player's stats) here, so when we made our run, it was basically against a bunch of bad teams/teams not playing their stars, right?

Not seeing 50 wins.

So essentially...1/3 of the entire season is straight garbage is what you're saying? :-/ I find that a little hard to believe. But that's not to say that what you think has no merit because it certainly does carry weight. Just saying the truth lies somewhere in between. But yes.... for me... that in between is still a 50 win team. hahaha


No, no, I'm saying people have used that excuse to discredit players in the past.. but then put a lot of stock into those wins in those months when it pertains to Vuc carrying us or us being a force to be reckoned with as far as a team, I'm just they can't have it both ways.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#1448 » by Def Swami » Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:03 am

PrimeThyme wrote:
OrlandO wrote:
PrimeThyme wrote:I just don't get this whole "they might not have a choice" narrative. We absolutely have a choice. Being a young developing team who just invested a top 6 draft pick into another center grants us that choice. I don't expect the FO to feel any pressure whatsoever to have to give Vuc a max based on what other teams are offering him. I think they offer him something in the 3 yr/20-22 million dollar range and he can take it or leave it.

Considering the opening paragraph arguing to consider both present and future, maybe they meant no choice as in Vuc might choose to leave if another team like the Kings make a big offer. Which site put up this article anyway?

Looks like an ESPN article to me. I took that statement as even if Vuc is offered a 4 yr max by someone we may not have any other choice but to offer him that same contract because he is an asset we just cannot afford to lose.

I just don't see it that way. We are a rebuilding team that just picked a center 6th overall in last years draft. I could just as easily see the FO siding with resigning birch as our starter and grooming Bamba under him if Vuc signs for big money with another team.

Depends on the path that the front office want to take.

I don't anticipate that they or ownership have any intention of wanting to take steps backward. Which is why the expectation is they will do their best to retain Vucevic. If their goal is to continue onward as a playoff team, they will certainly have pressure to bring Vucevic back. UNLESS, there is an alternative plan to acquire another offensive option that makes up for Vucevic's win shares. That would involve more steps and luck and would be more challenging. It's possible, but if it's not probable, then they're going to do their best to bring Vucevic back. They don't have to match that max offer, but there will be some pressure if their intention is to remain competitive. And by all accounts, I believe that is the intent.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#1449 » by Def Swami » Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:06 am

ezzzp wrote:I have a bad feeling that Ross is going to sign with the Lakers this summer.

Sean Deveney of the Sporting News reported last December that they were trying to trade for him. Bobby Marks recently mentioned him as a good fit for the new Lakers. Ross is a west coast guy. He would instantly be on a contender and the $ fit seems about right for LAL scenario were they divide their cap between 2 guys. Ross + Rose or Collison or Beverley

Beverley / Ross / LeBron / Kuzma / Davis

Felt the same way when Marks mentioned him. He's such a good fit for the Lakers and fits the price they'd be able to afford. Factor in LA and a championship opportunity, hard to see Ross pass it up if the Lakers become suitors.

It would be disappointing to see Ross walk away. One, it's losing an asset for nothing. Two, it's losing a really fun player who was a lone spark for our bench and overall scoring at times.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#1450 » by Ducklett » Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:11 am

Def Swami wrote:
PrimeThyme wrote:
OrlandO wrote:Considering the opening paragraph arguing to consider both present and future, maybe they meant no choice as in Vuc might choose to leave if another team like the Kings make a big offer. Which site put up this article anyway?

Looks like an ESPN article to me. I took that statement as even if Vuc is offered a 4 yr max by someone we may not have any other choice but to offer him that same contract because he is an asset we just cannot afford to lose.

I just don't see it that way. We are a rebuilding team that just picked a center 6th overall in last years draft. I could just as easily see the FO siding with resigning birch as our starter and grooming Bamba under him if Vuc signs for big money with another team.

Depends on the path that the front office want to take.

I don't anticipate that they or ownership have any intention of wanting to take steps backward. Which is why the expectation is they will do their best to retain Vucevic. If their goal is to continue onward as a playoff team, they will certainly have pressure to bring Vucevic back. UNLESS, there is an alternative plan to acquire another offensive option that makes up for Vucevic's win shares. That would involve more steps and luck and would be more challenging. It's possible, but if it's not probable, then they're going to do their best to bring Vucevic back. They don't have to match that max offer, but there will be some pressure if their intention is to remain competitive. And by all accounts, I believe that is the intent.


I don't think we can make this move without data we as fans just don't have. If working out with Bamba, Fultz, and Isaac and they look like that can be allstars, you resign the boys and run it back. If they don't look to be more than great role players, in 3-4 years we will be back to tanking hard, so what is the point?
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#1451 » by yoyojw17 » Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:27 am

SOUL wrote:
yoyojw17 wrote:
SOUL wrote:Also, I always see Jan-April attributed to us playing bad teams or teams that don't try (when talking about a certain ex-player's stats) here, so when we made our run, it was basically against a bunch of bad teams/teams not playing their stars, right?

Not seeing 50 wins.

So essentially...1/3 of the entire season is straight garbage is what you're saying? :-/ I find that a little hard to believe. But that's not to say that what you think has no merit because it certainly does carry weight. Just saying the truth lies somewhere in between. But yes.... for me... that in between is still a 50 win team. hahaha


No, no, I'm saying people have used that excuse to discredit players in the past.. but then put a lot of stock into those wins in those months when it pertains to Vuc carrying us or us being a force to be reckoned with as far as a team, I'm just they can't have it both ways.

Ah.... my bad. lol.... foot in mouth!!! You are correct. It all depends on the agenda.... "The magic aren't that good because the 80% eastern conference leading win rate down the stretch means nothing... and so does making the playoffs at 7th place and losing to the champions" are the same ones that MIGHT come in and say "We need DLo because he powered the nets into a playoffs down the stretch... and you saw how he played in the playoffs wooweeeeeeeee.... don't worry he's young... it'll be a learning experience"

....like that? hahah

sorry again for misreading n driving. hahah
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#1452 » by Def Swami » Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:36 am

Ducklett wrote:
Def Swami wrote:
PrimeThyme wrote:Looks like an ESPN article to me. I took that statement as even if Vuc is offered a 4 yr max by someone we may not have any other choice but to offer him that same contract because he is an asset we just cannot afford to lose.

I just don't see it that way. We are a rebuilding team that just picked a center 6th overall in last years draft. I could just as easily see the FO siding with resigning birch as our starter and grooming Bamba under him if Vuc signs for big money with another team.

Depends on the path that the front office want to take.

I don't anticipate that they or ownership have any intention of wanting to take steps backward. Which is why the expectation is they will do their best to retain Vucevic. If their goal is to continue onward as a playoff team, they will certainly have pressure to bring Vucevic back. UNLESS, there is an alternative plan to acquire another offensive option that makes up for Vucevic's win shares. That would involve more steps and luck and would be more challenging. It's possible, but if it's not probable, then they're going to do their best to bring Vucevic back. They don't have to match that max offer, but there will be some pressure if their intention is to remain competitive. And by all accounts, I believe that is the intent.


I don't think we can make this move without data we as fans just don't have. If working out with Bamba, Fultz, and Isaac and they look like that can be allstars, you resign the boys and run it back. If they don't look to be more than great role players, in 3-4 years we will be back to tanking hard, so what is the point?

It depends on the context you hope to develop your team from. No real right or wrong answer, but every front office has to pick a plan and commit to it.

You can maintain an asset and all-star on your team for the next few years while winning at least 41 games a season and making the playoffs. You give your young players an opportunity to grow in a competitive environment and learn how to play a winning brand of basketball. You improve the quality of your assets over time and hope to remain opportunistic in the trade market and draft wisely. Free agency is usually low yield for small market teams like us, so the cap space isn't much of an asset to begin with. The good examples of teams like this are the Raptors, Bucks, Celtics, Jazz, Nuggets. The examples of bad outcomes are teams that have strapped themselves in cap without much outlet or room for improvement like the current Heat, Pistons, Wizards, or Hornets. The Raptors really are the model for the slow and steady methodical approach. They were able to build their team around a couple of all-stars in Lowry and DeRozan who were always good, but never great, while developing young players on their bench and in the G League and being opportunistic in the trade market. Given that our GM and POBO come from the Bucks and Raptors, I anticipate that this is the strategy.

Or, you can let the all-star walk, hand the keys over to unproven players on their rookie deals and hope for the best. You maintain some flexibility with free agency. If your team is good, then great. That means your players might actually be worth a damn. But if not, then you're looking at a house of chaos that the Magic were prior to Steve Clifford arriving. it's the blind leading the blind. Ownership gets antsy because interest, TV ratings, and attendance plummet. That heat rolls downhill onto Weltman and Hammond. We'll be in play for higher lottery picks, but as seen this year, that game is much more dicey than in year's past; the potential go from pick 6 to 9 is much higher than in year's past. You're really relying on the draft in this scenario, and there's a fair argument for that. The Hawks are an example of a team that is using the draft the right way to build their team while maintaining flexibility in their cap space. That cap space isn't of much use to them though. For whatever reason, Atlanta has never been a free agent destination.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#1453 » by yoyojw17 » Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:42 am

Ducklett wrote:
Def Swami wrote:
PrimeThyme wrote:Looks like an ESPN article to me. I took that statement as even if Vuc is offered a 4 yr max by someone we may not have any other choice but to offer him that same contract because he is an asset we just cannot afford to lose.

I just don't see it that way. We are a rebuilding team that just picked a center 6th overall in last years draft. I could just as easily see the FO siding with resigning birch as our starter and grooming Bamba under him if Vuc signs for big money with another team.

Depends on the path that the front office want to take.

I don't anticipate that they or ownership have any intention of wanting to take steps backward. Which is why the expectation is they will do their best to retain Vucevic. If their goal is to continue onward as a playoff team, they will certainly have pressure to bring Vucevic back. UNLESS, there is an alternative plan to acquire another offensive option that makes up for Vucevic's win shares. That would involve more steps and luck and would be more challenging. It's possible, but if it's not probable, then they're going to do their best to bring Vucevic back. They don't have to match that max offer, but there will be some pressure if their intention is to remain competitive. And by all accounts, I believe that is the intent.


I don't think we can make this move without data we as fans just don't have. If working out with Bamba, Fultz, and Isaac and they look like that can be allstars, you resign the boys and run it back. If they don't look to be more than great role players, in 3-4 years we will be back to tanking hard, so what is the point?

Exactly. If they are holding onto and developing players.... it's hopefully because they can see the bigger puzzle than we can. As of now... we aren't on the inside.... and seeing the growth that a lot of the players have... let alone attitude and emotions. So sometimes it's just not safe to make superficial conclusions.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#1454 » by Bensational » Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:53 am

Def Swami wrote:
ezzzp wrote:I have a bad feeling that Ross is going to sign with the Lakers this summer.

Sean Deveney of the Sporting News reported last December that they were trying to trade for him. Bobby Marks recently mentioned him as a good fit for the new Lakers. Ross is a west coast guy. He would instantly be on a contender and the $ fit seems about right for LAL scenario were they divide their cap between 2 guys. Ross + Rose or Collison or Beverley

Beverley / Ross / LeBron / Kuzma / Davis

Felt the same way when Marks mentioned him. He's such a good fit for the Lakers and fits the price they'd be able to afford. Factor in LA and a championship opportunity, hard to see Ross pass it up if the Lakers become suitors.

It would be disappointing to see Ross walk away. One, it's losing an asset for nothing. Two, it's losing a really fun player who was a lone spark for our bench and overall scoring at times.


It's kind of the bind that WeHam have allowed themselves to be put in. We've had 1 postseason run off the back of the play of two 27-28 year old players who are both free agents this summer. But neither player are truly a 'sign them and they'll carry you to the playoffs' option, either. So now we're facing the possibility of either feeling obliged to re-sign both, so we can continue trying to be playoff competitive, or let them both go and hope to replace them with a comparable talent that fits the rest of the team's needs. Or, let them go, don't replace them, and accept losing two assets for zero returns whilst not having much potential in the backcourt that might replace them sooner rather than later.

It's one of those catch-22 situations. Had we traded them last season, we wouldn't have made the playoffs, but we could have acquired something of value. But we gave up that flexibility for the playoffs, which was the smart move in my opinion. But now the question becomes, how beholden do we want to be to a 42 win team?
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#1455 » by pepe1991 » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:04 am

So Beal might be traded for 4th overall pick from Pelicans.
Jazz will probably land Conley.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#1456 » by RookieStar » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:12 am

Man.... all these teams have rumours about trades. What about us?
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#1457 » by Howard Mass » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:44 am

I am not sure Nikola Vucevic will have much of a market.

I expect The Magic will be fair to him though.

Regardless, come June 30 at 6 PM, things are going to get crazy.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#1458 » by Blue_and_Whte » Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:00 pm

drsd wrote:
Blue_and_Whte wrote:Where did Bamba go in your hypothetical lineup?



Oops (last time I left Fournier out).

To answer: any 49th player will not play 100 minutes for Orlando. And yes, Bamba gets minutes over Mozgov.

Augustin/Fultz/Carter-Williams
Fournier/Iwundu/Alexander-Walker
Isaac/Ross/Frazier
Gordon/Kaminsky
Vučević/Bamba/Mozgov

I really like this team. I do see (if healthy) 50 wins,



..
Well personally I don't think Kaminsky and Fultz with largely the same roster make us a 50 win team. Vuc is at his ceiling and i don't see superstar talent from anyone else outside of maybe AG. I hope youre right though.

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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#1459 » by Blue_and_Whte » Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:12 pm

yoyojw17 wrote:
SOUL wrote:Also, I always see Jan-April attributed to us playing bad teams or teams that don't try (when talking about a certain ex-player's stats) here, so when we made our run, it was basically against a bunch of bad teams/teams not playing their stars, right?

Not seeing 50 wins.

So essentially...1/3 of the entire season is straight garbage is what you're saying? :-/ I find that a little hard to believe. But that's not to say that what you think has no merit because it certainly does carry weight. Just saying the truth lies somewhere in between. But yes.... for me... that in between is still a 50 win team. hahaha
I dont agree with that mind set either. I havent gone through the games and determined which teams were bad and which ones werent, but regardless those are must win games.
Orlando doesnt make their schedule so who they played shouldn't diminish their acomplishment. Its like "damned if you do, damned if you don't".

Also I think that line of thinking would change if the make up of the team were different. For example nobody would care about the quality of the teams we beat to get to the POs if Bamba or JI were putting up Niks numbers if the end result were the same.


SOUL wrote:
yoyojw17 wrote:
SOUL wrote:Also, I always see Jan-April attributed to us playing bad teams or teams that don't try (when talking about a certain ex-player's stats) here, so when we made our run, it was basically against a bunch of bad teams/teams not playing their stars, right?

Not seeing 50 wins.

So essentially...1/3 of the entire season is straight garbage is what you're saying? :-/ I find that a little hard to believe. But that's not to say that what you think has no merit because it certainly does carry weight. Just saying the truth lies somewhere in between. But yes.... for me... that in between is still a 50 win team. hahaha


No, no, I'm saying people have used that excuse to discredit players in the past...
Those players didnt get us to the Playoffs.


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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon 

Post#1460 » by MasterGMer » Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:16 pm

I think our FO has to make a decision: to stay patient and relying on player development and Fultz or to upgrade the roster aggressively. I think our FO is the former one. So I am not expecting a major trade to happen and our goal this summer will be Vuc and Ross. So next year, we might not go deeper in the PO but we might be a 45+ winning team.

I know as a fan, we want to see moves and trades. Because it is fun. But to our FO, the best thing for this team might not be that.

So I am not expecting much this summer. Just can't wait for the draft and summer league

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