Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 V: Purgatory

[thelead]

Is Duncan Robinson worth the full mid-level exemption for Orlando?

And is ~9M a year enough to snag him?


//

he is under contract next year

And he will be worth more than 9m a year. Evan makes 17

[pepe1991]

Is Duncan Robinson worth the full mid-level exemption for Orlando?

And is ~9M a year enough to snag him?


//

he is under contract next year

And he will be worth more than 9m a year. Evan makes 17

He is undrafted rookie scale contract. Whole league could sign him.

[VFX]

I hate the tanking semantics argument. You either get it or you don’t, and choose to be willfully dense about it.

Mavs were openly talking about tanking, fined for it, and landed Doncic. Case closed.

Just because a team is built poorly doesn’t mean they’re tanking. Timing of contracts and free agency is the game behind the game for big markets with the ability to pull in talent from existing assets.

The draft is basically the only legitimate tool for teams that aren’t players in free agency or have decent tradable players. The Magic fall directly into both of those categories, and therefore need to be utilizing the draft as much as possible.

It’s not that complicated...

[Skin]

Pepe says tank doesn't work.
Pepe says Lakers tanked.
Lakers flip draft assets to dump bad contracts and sign stars.
Pepe says contenders don't build through the draft.

Pepe says tank doesn't work.
Pepe says Celtics tanked.
Celtics core is made up of their draft picks.
Pepe says contenders don't build through the draft.

Lakers are contenders becouse Lebron signed with them, their tank went horribly.
Boston are contenders becouse they robbed Nets in a trade not becouse they were tanking. Tatum and Brown are not their picks.

Lakers used the draft to build their team. No way going around it. They flipped Russell to dump Mozgov's terrible contract in order to get Brook Lopez's expiring contract and the pick that lead to Kuzma. When Lopez expired, they had enough money to sign Lebron. But were they contenders with Lebron? No, they missed the playoffs in his first year. They continued to use their draft assets to get Davis (#4 pick, Ball, Ingram +). Then they became a contender. If their tank failed then their assets wouldn't have been valued enough to get Davis.

Boston blew up a first or second round playoff exit team because they knew that wasn't a good place to be in. Magic don't think this way. Trading Vuc, Fournier, Gordon for draft picks would be a ludicrous idea. Pepe already described in detail how they did tank, so I'm not sure why you're disagreeing. You guys never disagree. Almost sure it's the same guy posting from both accounts. .... anyways, they drafted the guys leading their revival. They could've easily drafted the wrong guys and the story would be different.

In both cases, these 2 teams were aggressive in trades, didn't settle for mediocrity, and capitalized on the draft to build contenders. Saying they didn't tank is false. Saying they didn't use the draft to build their team is false.

[zaymon]

Pepe says tank doesn't work.
Pepe says Lakers tanked.
Lakers flip draft assets to dump bad contracts and sign stars.
Pepe says contenders don't build through the draft.

Pepe says tank doesn't work.
Pepe says Celtics tanked.
Celtics core is made up of their draft picks.
Pepe says contenders don't build through the draft.

Lakers are contenders becouse Lebron signed with them, their tank went horribly.
Boston are contenders becouse they robbed Nets in a trade not becouse they were tanking. Tatum and Brown are not their picks.

Lakers used the draft to build their team. No way going around it. They flipped Russell to dump Mozgov's terrible contract in order to get Brook Lopez's expiring contract and the pick that lead to Kuzma. When Lopez expired, they had enough money to sign Lebron. But were they contenders with Lebron? No, they missed the playoffs in his first year. They continued to use their draft assets to get Davis (#4 pick, Ball, Ingram +). Then they became a contender. If their tank failed then their assets wouldn't have been valued enough to get Davis.

Boston blew up a first or second round playoff exit team because they knew that wasn't a good place to be in. Magic don't think this way. Trading Vuc, Fournier, Gordon for draft picks would be a ludicrous idea. Pepe already described in detail how they did tank, so I'm not sure why you're disagreeing. You guys never disagree. Almost sure it's the same guy posting from both accounts. .... anyways, they drafted the guys leading their revival. They could've easily drafted the wrong guys and the story would be different.

In both cases, these 2 teams were aggressive in trades, didn't settle for mediocrity, and capitalized on the draft to build contenders. Saying they didn't tank is false. Saying they didn't use the draft to build their team is false.

Boston "tAnKeD" for one year, 2013-2014. They finished as a 5th worst team, picked 6th, two spots behind Magic. Year before and year after they were the 7th seed.
Walker- free agent
Brown- trade
Hayward-free agent
Tatum- trade
Theis- undrafted

Lakers were a joke before Lebron signed with them. He didnt choose them becouse they tanked, but becouse it was a good business decision for him. Guys they drafted were underwhelming and had very little value around the league (as you mentioned with Russell). Yes their assets helped them get Davis, but he wouldnt come if Lebron wasnt there and their #4 pick was not a product of tanking. They finished as 11th worst team, lucked into #4.
Bradley- free agent
KCP- free agent
Lebron- free agent
Davis- trade
Mcgee- free agent

Of course tanking give you assets, but it also limits your options and suppresses the value of your assets unless you draft a generational lead ball handler and even if you do, you will most likely fail as we learnt from history.

ps. As for me and pepe being the same person its the same flawed logic you use to make arguments in other subjects.

[Ducklett]

Lakers are contenders becouse Lebron signed with them, their tank went horribly.
Boston are contenders becouse they robbed Nets in a trade not becouse they were tanking. Tatum and Brown are not their picks.

Lakers used the draft to build their team. No way going around it. They flipped Russell to dump Mozgov's terrible contract in order to get Brook Lopez's expiring contract and the pick that lead to Kuzma. When Lopez expired, they had enough money to sign Lebron. But were they contenders with Lebron? No, they missed the playoffs in his first year. They continued to use their draft assets to get Davis (#4 pick, Ball, Ingram +). Then they became a contender. If their tank failed then their assets wouldn't have been valued enough to get Davis.

Boston blew up a first or second round playoff exit team because they knew that wasn't a good place to be in. Magic don't think this way. Trading Vuc, Fournier, Gordon for draft picks would be a ludicrous idea. Pepe already described in detail how they did tank, so I'm not sure why you're disagreeing. You guys never disagree. Almost sure it's the same guy posting from both accounts. .... anyways, they drafted the guys leading their revival. They could've easily drafted the wrong guys and the story would be different.

In both cases, these 2 teams were aggressive in trades, didn't settle for mediocrity, and capitalized on the draft to build contenders. Saying they didn't tank is false. Saying they didn't use the draft to build their team is false.

Boston "tAnKeD" for one year, 2013-2014. They finished as a 5th worst team, picked 6th, two spots behind Magic. Year before and year after they were the 7th seed.
Walker- free agent
Brown- trade
Hayward-free agent
Tatum- trade
Theis- undrafted

Lakers were a joke before Lebron signed with them. He didnt choose them becouse they tanked, but becouse it was a good business decision for him. Guys they drafted were underwhelming and had very little value around the league (as you mentioned with Russell). Yes their assets helped them get Davis, but he wouldnt come if Lebron wasnt there and their #4 pick was not a product of tanking. They finished as 11th worst team, lucked into #4.
Bradley- free agent
KCP- free agent
Lebron- free agent
Davis- trade
Mcgee- free agent

Of course tanking give you assets, but it also limits your options and suppresses the value of your assets unless you draft a generational lead ball handler and even if you do, you will most likely fail as we learnt from history.

ps. As for me and pepe being the same person its the same flawed logic you use to make arguments in other subjects.

A bunch of the western playoff teams were "tanking" recently. All I am going to say is you need a superstar to win a championship. How do you suppose we acquire one at current rate. Picking 15th? Isaac, Bamba, and Fultz aren't it. Okeke might have a 1% chance to become a star.

What is your play?

[zaymon]

Lakers used the draft to build their team. No way going around it. They flipped Russell to dump Mozgov's terrible contract in order to get Brook Lopez's expiring contract and the pick that lead to Kuzma. When Lopez expired, they had enough money to sign Lebron. But were they contenders with Lebron? No, they missed the playoffs in his first year. They continued to use their draft assets to get Davis (#4 pick, Ball, Ingram +). Then they became a contender. If their tank failed then their assets wouldn't have been valued enough to get Davis.

Boston blew up a first or second round playoff exit team because they knew that wasn't a good place to be in. Magic don't think this way. Trading Vuc, Fournier, Gordon for draft picks would be a ludicrous idea. Pepe already described in detail how they did tank, so I'm not sure why you're disagreeing. You guys never disagree. Almost sure it's the same guy posting from both accounts. .... anyways, they drafted the guys leading their revival. They could've easily drafted the wrong guys and the story would be different.

In both cases, these 2 teams were aggressive in trades, didn't settle for mediocrity, and capitalized on the draft to build contenders. Saying they didn't tank is false. Saying they didn't use the draft to build their team is false.

Boston "tAnKeD" for one year, 2013-2014. They finished as a 5th worst team, picked 6th, two spots behind Magic. Year before and year after they were the 7th seed.
Walker- free agent
Brown- trade
Hayward-free agent
Tatum- trade
Theis- undrafted

Lakers were a joke before Lebron signed with them. He didnt choose them becouse they tanked, but becouse it was a good business decision for him. Guys they drafted were underwhelming and had very little value around the league (as you mentioned with Russell). Yes their assets helped them get Davis, but he wouldnt come if Lebron wasnt there and their #4 pick was not a product of tanking. They finished as 11th worst team, lucked into #4.
Bradley- free agent
KCP- free agent
Lebron- free agent
Davis- trade
Mcgee- free agent

Of course tanking give you assets, but it also limits your options and suppresses the value of your assets unless you draft a generational lead ball handler and even if you do, you will most likely fail as we learnt from history.

ps. As for me and pepe being the same person its the same flawed logic you use to make arguments in other subjects.

A bunch of the western playoff teams were "tanking" recently. All I am going to say is you need a superstar to win a championship. How do you suppose we acquire one at current rate. Picking 15th? Isaac, Bamba, and Fultz aren't it. Okeke might have a 1% chance to become a star.

What is your play?

Develop Fultz and Isaac, hunt for next Giannis, Kawhi, Jokic, Butler, Mitchell in a draft, accumulate assets waiting for next disgruntled star. I would be ok with tanking if we had no young talent, but we have multiple top 10 lottery players on rookie contracts showing promise.

[pepe1991]

Literally all posters who now want to tank actually just want to get rid of Vuc and Evan. It's hilarious.

Teams tank. Magic tanked. Some teams just along with better drafting know how to get players in alternative ways. Most of contenders are not built through draft, or not strictly through draft. Doing asset menagment, being FA destination, having eye for a talent and flipping negative assets into positive ones ( Derozan for Kawhi trade ) is what makes teams successful.

You can draft generational talent like Durant, Lebron and never win anything with them.Happend to both OKC and Cavs.
You can win lottery in crappy year and end up with Bennett. And you can draft two times MVP with #15 pick, while with same people who drafted him, you menage to botch 2# overall pick and #10 pick year later.

If Magic elect to tank, that doens't mean 2021 will be a year where they are guarenteed to land star. Odds are, they won't. But some posters pretend it's a done deal, just tank and your Lebron is there for you.

[VFX]

Boston "tAnKeD" for one year, 2013-2014. They finished as a 5th worst team, picked 6th, two spots behind Magic. Year before and year after they were the 7th seed.
Walker- free agent
Brown- trade
Hayward-free agent
Tatum- trade
Theis- undrafted

Lakers were a joke before Lebron signed with them. He didnt choose them becouse they tanked, but becouse it was a good business decision for him. Guys they drafted were underwhelming and had very little value around the league (as you mentioned with Russell). Yes their assets helped them get Davis, but he wouldnt come if Lebron wasnt there and their #4 pick was not a product of tanking. They finished as 11th worst team, lucked into #4.
Bradley- free agent
KCP- free agent
Lebron- free agent
Davis- trade
Mcgee- free agent

Of course tanking give you assets, but it also limits your options and suppresses the value of your assets unless you draft a generational lead ball handler and even if you do, you will most likely fail as we learnt from history.

ps. As for me and pepe being the same person its the same flawed logic you use to make arguments in other subjects.

A bunch of the western playoff teams were "tanking" recently. All I am going to say is you need a superstar to win a championship. How do you suppose we acquire one at current rate. Picking 15th? Isaac, Bamba, and Fultz aren't it. Okeke might have a 1% chance to become a star.

What is your play?

Develop Fultz and Isaac, hunt for next Giannis, Kawhi, Jokic, Butler, Mitchell in a draft, accumulate assets waiting for next disgruntled star. I would be ok with tanking if we had no young talent, but we have multiple top 10 lottery players on rookie contracts showing promise.

This is the ezzzp argument. Those are ALL anomalies and they are the exception, not the rule. “Disgruntled Star” is also another rare event, and Orlando isn’t on that resigning short list. Picking 14-16 isn’t a good strategy as we pray the next one of these exceptional diamonds in the rough are passed by half of the other nba franchises.

Those chances are exceedingly slim. Orlando has to make their own luck and not play the same game this FO has been playing by letting everyone else dictate their choices.

Fultz is the only player on your list that qualifies. Okeke is a mystery, Bamba is a complete project, and Isaac can’t stay on the court.

[pepe1991]

A bunch of the western playoff teams were "tanking" recently. All I am going to say is you need a superstar to win a championship. How do you suppose we acquire one at current rate. Picking 15th? Isaac, Bamba, and Fultz aren't it. Okeke might have a 1% chance to become a star.

What is your play?

Develop Fultz and Isaac, hunt for next Giannis, Kawhi, Jokic, Butler, Mitchell in a draft, accumulate assets waiting for next disgruntled star. I would be ok with tanking if we had no young talent, but we have multiple top 10 lottery players on rookie contracts showing promise.

This is the ezzzp argument. Those are ALL anomalies and they are the exception, not the rule. “Disgruntled Star” is also another rare event, and Orlando isn’t on that resigning short list. Picking 14-16 isn’t a good strategy as we pray the next one of these exceptional diamonds in the rough are passed by half of the other nba franchises.

Those chances are exceedingly slim. Orlando has to make their own luck and not play the same game this FO has been playing by letting everyone else dictate their choices.

Fultz is the only player on your list that qualifies. Okeke is a mystery, Bamba is a complete project, and Isaac can’t stay on the court.

I can't recall what was last year where not a single allstar was moved. I really tried. Last 15 years all had at least one.
This year it was D'angelo Russell. Last year bunch of allstars were moved around.

Chances are not slim at all. Most teams, much like Magic, refuse to make that type of move because they overvalue their assets.

Just in February, when i suggest i would do Donovan MItchell trade, lot of people shut me down telling how he is just a guy and how Gobert is best Jazz player. This playoffs once again showed how overvalued single person defense is and how you can't build anything around defenive center.

Over years i wanted Malik Beasly trade at least twice.
Jamal Murray - for Gordon trade , at least 5 times.
Vuc for Hayward and one of billion Nets picks- at least 5 times.

Back in 2018 i wanted to do Irving trade. Once again, bunch of people here were outraged over my idea of selling farm for established allstars. In hindsight that trade, with solid menagment would probably lead to Magic landing Durant

And that's pretty much same issue with this, or any other fans forum. Each and every fanbase overhypes and overvalues assets and young players. To the point where they won't sell some future nobody for established star because of "Potential".
I mean just remember days when Gordon was new, just more athletic Kawhi ,according to some, and Payton was "making poster fall in love in basketball again". It's laughable what fans say. Worst front offices are ones who actually listen or care what fans think. Fans opinion is irrelevant to sucess of a team. What we say here should have zero value for them.


Ezzzp was too egoistic and "always right even if it means talking about some point to oblivion " type of poster, but he said a lot of right stuff. Magic fans on this forum just want to tank to get rid of 2 players. That's pretty much only reason.
There is portion of fans who don't understand that Evan option out, will not make ANY difference for Orlando, as they will still have NO cap space to sign anybody. Him leaving is literally- one asset less. ZEEEEERO gain. Why root for something that makes your team worst in both playing and asset department?
There is portion of fans who hate DJ because he "east Fultz playing time ", where in reality it's other way around. Fult plays more despite being inferior player. All worst lineups say same thing - Fultz is member of all of them, DJ is member of all the best.

I won't even go into whole Bamba thing. IT's like wasting time to develop Andrew Nicholson into Olympic sprinter. "but but but wingspan, potential" yea , he can use that wingspan to learn to fly, it will take less time than learning how to play basketball at this level.

[The Effect]

Literally all posters who now want to tank actually just want to get rid of Vuc and Evan. It's hilarious.

and gordon and isaac

I literally want to get rid of everyone except Fultz and chuma (might as well see what we have there)

I love gordon, but if he can somehow net us Anthony edwards in a trade, im all for it

Everyone else is a depreciating asset to me.
Tear down and rebuild asap

[Ducklett]

Literally all posters who now want to tank actually just want to get rid of Vuc and Evan. It's hilarious.

and gordon and isaac

I literally want to get rid of everyone except Fultz and chuma (might as well see what we have there)

I love gordon, but if he can somehow net us Anthony edwards in a trade, im all for it

Everyone else is a depreciating asset to me.
Tear down and rebuild asap

I am kinda with you on this. Bamba might have some lingering COVID issues and Isaac will probably never be a healthy NBA player. Just send everyone out not named Fultz and Chuma and see what happens.

[VFX]

Develop Fultz and Isaac, hunt for next Giannis, Kawhi, Jokic, Butler, Mitchell in a draft, accumulate assets waiting for next disgruntled star. I would be ok with tanking if we had no young talent, but we have multiple top 10 lottery players on rookie contracts showing promise.

This is the ezzzp argument. Those are ALL anomalies and they are the exception, not the rule. “Disgruntled Star” is also another rare event, and Orlando isn’t on that resigning short list. Picking 14-16 isn’t a good strategy as we pray the next one of these exceptional diamonds in the rough are passed by half of the other nba franchises.

Those chances are exceedingly slim. Orlando has to make their own luck and not play the same game this FO has been playing by letting everyone else dictate their choices.

Fultz is the only player on your list that qualifies. Okeke is a mystery, Bamba is a complete project, and Isaac can’t stay on the court.

I can't recall what was last year where not a single allstar was moved. I really tried. Last 15 years all had at least one.
This year it was D'angelo Russell. Last year bunch of allstars were moved around.

Chances are not slim at all. Most teams, much like Magic, refuse to make that type of move because they overvalue their assets.

Just in February, when i suggest i would do Donovan MItchell trade, lot of people shut me down telling how he is just a guy and how Gobert is best Jazz player. This playoffs once again showed how overvalued single person defense is and how you can't build anything around defenive center.

Over years i wanted Malik Beasly trade at least twice.
Jamal Murray - for Gordon trade , at least 5 times.
Vuc for Hayward and one of billion Nets picks- at least 5 times.

Back in 2018 i wanted to do Irving trade. Once again, bunch of people here were outraged over my idea of selling farm for established allstars. In hindsight that trade, with solid menagment would probably lead to Magic landing Durant

And that's pretty much same issue with this, or any other fans forum. Each and every fanbase overhypes and overvalues assets and young players. To the point where they won't sell some future nobody for established star because of "Potential".
I mean just remember days when Gordon was new, just more athletic Kawhi ,according to some, and Payton was "making poster fall in love in basketball again". It's laughable what fans say. Worst front offices are ones who actually listen or care what fans think. Fans opinion is irrelevant to sucess of a team. What we say here should have zero value for them.


Ezzzp was too egoistic and "always right even if it means talking about some point to oblivion " type of poster, but he said a lot of right stuff. Magic fans on this forum just want to tank to get rid of 2 players. That's pretty much only reason.
There is portion of fans who don't understand that Evan option out, will not make ANY difference for Orlando, as they will still have NO cap space to sign anybody. Him leaving is literally- one asset less. ZEEEEERO gain. Why root for something that makes your team worst in both playing and asset department?
There is portion of fans who hate DJ because he "east Fultz playing time ", where in reality it's other way around. Fult plays more despite being inferior player. All worst lineups say same thing - Fultz is member of all of them, DJ is member of all the best.

I won't even go into whole Bamba thing. IT's like wasting time to develop Andrew Nicholson into Olympic sprinter. "but but but wingspan, potential" yea , he can use that wingspan to learn to fly, it will take less time than learning how to play basketball at this level.

You’re missing the point about stars being moved. They don’t do it unless they have a chance to win, by pairing up, or have a short list. Orlando does NOT have that player to draw them in, and they are NOT a destination on any of their short lists when the “disgruntled star” theory ever plays out. I don’t know why that context never matters to people in this argument. Convenient.

I’ll say it again if it’s still confusing... the draft is the ONLY way to land these aforementioned players for a franchise in Orlando’s current situation. I’m not putting a pick # attached to that statement, but obviously you already know higher picks turn out more than the latter.

The whole point about potential proves your ideas about the “late draft picks” like Jokic or Kawhi. You don’t know how these guys develop and IF they emerge into a big enough talent to draw GOOD free agents in, then you have something.

There are currently zero players on this roster that have that ability. Unless Fultz or Okeke completely outplay their expectations, then there is no huge upside. No, I don’t get enamored with rookies until they can show they are worth investing. This obviously means more if a prospect has skills we obviously lack in spades. For example, I’m off the board with Isaac now after his displays of amazing defense. This is mostly because I don’t believe he will ever be healthy enough or reliable.

You’d have to understand that people don’t say the opposite between DJ and Fultz, not because DJ puts up betters stats, but because Fultz is a future asset that has a bigger importance to the roster. We know exactly what kind of players Fournier, Vuc, AG, and DJ are. There is an obvious ceiling and they’ve proven that. Potential is what matters to teams that aren’t realistically competing for championships. Why? Because a GM has to be able to make moves for the future and not for a team that is currently incapable and lacking real talent.

To your point about Evan, yes. That’s more damning of the FO continuing to triple down on Hennigan guys and fail to move them prior, rather than waiting to pay them more money for less production.

[GelbeWand09]

Develop Fultz and Isaac, hunt for next Giannis, Kawhi, Jokic, Butler, Mitchell in a draft, accumulate assets waiting for next disgruntled star. I would be ok with tanking if we had no young talent, but we have multiple top 10 lottery players on rookie contracts showing promise.

This is the ezzzp argument. Those are ALL anomalies and they are the exception, not the rule. “Disgruntled Star” is also another rare event, and Orlando isn’t on that resigning short list. Picking 14-16 isn’t a good strategy as we pray the next one of these exceptional diamonds in the rough are passed by half of the other nba franchises.

Those chances are exceedingly slim. Orlando has to make their own luck and not play the same game this FO has been playing by letting everyone else dictate their choices.

Fultz is the only player on your list that qualifies. Okeke is a mystery, Bamba is a complete project, and Isaac can’t stay on the court.

I can't recall what was last year where not a single allstar was moved. I really tried. Last 15 years all had at least one.
This year it was D'angelo Russell. Last year bunch of allstars were moved around.

Chances are not slim at all. Most teams, much like Magic, refuse to make that type of move because they overvalue their assets.

Just in February, when i suggest i would do Donovan MItchell trade, lot of people shut me down telling how he is just a guy and how Gobert is best Jazz player. This playoffs once again showed how overvalued single person defense is and how you can't build anything around defenive center.

Over years i wanted Malik Beasly trade at least twice.
Jamal Murray - for Gordon trade , at least 5 times.
Vuc for Hayward and one of billion Nets picks- at least 5 times.

Back in 2018 i wanted to do Irving trade. Once again, bunch of people here were outraged over my idea of selling farm for established allstars. In hindsight that trade, with solid menagment would probably lead to Magic landing Durant

And that's pretty much same issue with this, or any other fans forum. Each and every fanbase overhypes and overvalues assets and young players. To the point where they won't sell some future nobody for established star because of "Potential".
I mean just remember days when Gordon was new, just more athletic Kawhi ,according to some, and Payton was "making poster fall in love in basketball again". It's laughable what fans say. Worst front offices are ones who actually listen or care what fans think. Fans opinion is irrelevant to sucess of a team. What we say here should have zero value for them.


Ezzzp was too egoistic and "always right even if it means talking about some point to oblivion " type of poster, but he said a lot of right stuff. Magic fans on this forum just want to tank to get rid of 2 players. That's pretty much only reason.
There is portion of fans who don't understand that Evan option out, will not make ANY difference for Orlando, as they will still have NO cap space to sign anybody. Him leaving is literally- one asset less. ZEEEEERO gain. Why root for something that makes your team worst in both playing and asset department?
There is portion of fans who hate DJ because he "east Fultz playing time ", where in reality it's other way around. Fult plays more despite being inferior player. All worst lineups say same thing - Fultz is member of all of them, DJ is member of all the best.

I won't even go into whole Bamba thing. IT's like wasting time to develop Andrew Nicholson into Olympic sprinter. "but but but wingspan, potential" yea , he can use that wingspan to learn to fly, it will take less time than learning how to play basketball at this level.

Without wishing to interfere in that discussion, but i read that Murray thing a lot from you lately. I can remember that good, but it was already at a time were Murray was much more valuable than AG. Its like saying now, lets trade for Tyler Herro or SGA. Wont happen.
I mean i liked Murray since i saw him for the Canadian national team at the Pan American Games in 2015 as a Highschooler. I watched some games because of Nicholson, but Murray was the best player on the floor & dropped 22 Points vs the US in the final quarter & OT as a kid vs. adults. He was always a bigger asset than everything we had, except a hypothetical injury free version of Isaac.

There was never a window for a AG for Murray trade in my opinion.
The Malik Beasley trade ideas were posted here by several members too.
Vuc for Hayward (+ picks anyway) was never realistic too.
And we had never peaces to get Mitchell past his summerleaque explosion as a rookie. Props if you said that at the draft, but not in 2020.

These are all great trade ideas by you but if you are honest, nothing was realistic.

[pepe1991]

This is the ezzzp argument. Those are ALL anomalies and they are the exception, not the rule. “Disgruntled Star” is also another rare event, and Orlando isn’t on that resigning short list. Picking 14-16 isn’t a good strategy as we pray the next one of these exceptional diamonds in the rough are passed by half of the other nba franchises.

Those chances are exceedingly slim. Orlando has to make their own luck and not play the same game this FO has been playing by letting everyone else dictate their choices.

Fultz is the only player on your list that qualifies. Okeke is a mystery, Bamba is a complete project, and Isaac can’t stay on the court.

I can't recall what was last year where not a single allstar was moved. I really tried. Last 15 years all had at least one.
This year it was D'angelo Russell. Last year bunch of allstars were moved around.

Chances are not slim at all. Most teams, much like Magic, refuse to make that type of move because they overvalue their assets.

Just in February, when i suggest i would do Donovan MItchell trade, lot of people shut me down telling how he is just a guy and how Gobert is best Jazz player. This playoffs once again showed how overvalued single person defense is and how you can't build anything around defenive center.

Over years i wanted Malik Beasly trade at least twice.
Jamal Murray - for Gordon trade , at least 5 times.
Vuc for Hayward and one of billion Nets picks- at least 5 times.

Back in 2018 i wanted to do Irving trade. Once again, bunch of people here were outraged over my idea of selling farm for established allstars. In hindsight that trade, with solid menagment would probably lead to Magic landing Durant

And that's pretty much same issue with this, or any other fans forum. Each and every fanbase overhypes and overvalues assets and young players. To the point where they won't sell some future nobody for established star because of "Potential".
I mean just remember days when Gordon was new, just more athletic Kawhi ,according to some, and Payton was "making poster fall in love in basketball again". It's laughable what fans say. Worst front offices are ones who actually listen or care what fans think. Fans opinion is irrelevant to sucess of a team. What we say here should have zero value for them.


Ezzzp was too egoistic and "always right even if it means talking about some point to oblivion " type of poster, but he said a lot of right stuff. Magic fans on this forum just want to tank to get rid of 2 players. That's pretty much only reason.
There is portion of fans who don't understand that Evan option out, will not make ANY difference for Orlando, as they will still have NO cap space to sign anybody. Him leaving is literally- one asset less. ZEEEEERO gain. Why root for something that makes your team worst in both playing and asset department?
There is portion of fans who hate DJ because he "east Fultz playing time ", where in reality it's other way around. Fult plays more despite being inferior player. All worst lineups say same thing - Fultz is member of all of them, DJ is member of all the best.

I won't even go into whole Bamba thing. IT's like wasting time to develop Andrew Nicholson into Olympic sprinter. "but but but wingspan, potential" yea , he can use that wingspan to learn to fly, it will take less time than learning how to play basketball at this level.

Without wishing to interfere in that discussion, but i read that Murray thing a lot from you lately. I can remember that good, but it was already at a time were Murray was much more valuable than AG. Its like saying now, lets trade for Tyler Herro or SGA. Wont happen.
I mean i liked Murray since i saw him for the Canadian national team at the Pan American Games in 2015 as a Highschooler. I watched some games because of Nicholson, but Murray was the best player on the floor & dropped 22 Points vs the US in the final quarter & OT as a kid vs. adults. He was always a bigger asset than everything we had, except a hypothetical injury free version of Isaac.

There was never a window for a AG for Murray trade in my opinion.
The Malik Beasley trade ideas were posted here by several members too.
Vuc for Hayward (+ picks anyway) was never realistic too.
And we had never peaces to get Mitchell past his summerleaque explosion as a rookie. Props if you said that at the draft, but not in 2020.

These are all great trade ideas by you but if you are honest, nothing was realistic.

Re: NCAA Tournament
2
Post#152 » by pepe1991 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:38 pm

PrimeShaq wrote:
j-ragg wrote:
PrimeShaq wrote:
You're comparing apples and oranges here. He's lightyears ahead of Isaac in terms of offense, but Isaac is the superior defender. Not only that, but most scouts have Bagley as a center longterm in the NBA while Isaac is a 3/4. They are two completely different prospects.

Can we just call it what it is... there is nothing that says small forward about Isaac to me. His defensive contribution has been his rim protection, I haven't seen him move his feet much on the perimeter. Offensively it isn't even close, he doesn't have the game of an SF. Ultimately I guess it doesn't really matter, I just have been hoping he could up his calories and be the center of the future because I think he'd thrive there. Even though I feel this way I still love your sig lol.

Haha appreciate it bro. At this stage you are right. His game offensively atm is too raw to play SF. I’m not ready to pigeonhole him into anything yet though and say that he can’t/won’t be this or he definitely will play this position. I really want to see him get a summer with Forcier and start developing his game. It’s really going to depend on him developing a much tighter handle and gaining confidence in his shot at the NBA level.

If he can do those things and add the off the dribble dimension to his game I think it’s definitely a possibility he could become a 3/4 hybrid guy with AG. I’m not sure how long that will take though. The game is going to have to slow down for him offensively and he is going to have to add to it before we know for sure. I’m open to 3/4/5 right now.


Given his asthma problems would it be easier to him to play big man over SF in general? Big guys tend to move less ,but game is more physical for them. Jimmy Butler, at SF , in 2016 lead whole league in average distance per game ,2,76 miles.

I never saw anything SF-ish in isaac comming from college, in nba it just got more clear. Ofc over years he could and should develop ballhandling and shooting off dribble, passing . But that skillset will be "force fed" to him, not something he is comfortable doing naturally.

Because of that i'm hesitateing about idea of drafting another big man. How many min you can distribute to that guy, Isaac and Gordon and make it work and shouldn't lottery be way how to build your starting 5 ,than figure bench later instad of adding players that don't fit ? ( Hello 2014 all over again when Oladipo got Payton to ruin him ).

Maybe best Magic solution is to trade Gordon for guard. Example- Jamal Murray and Nuggets pick for Gordon and salary dump to make it work. ( Murray is easly one of most talented young guards in nba that nobody pays notice because he plays in Denver , guy is 20 and averaging 16,4 ppg on 58% TS)

wanted it 2 and half years ago.
It wasn't that outrages trade idea really. Gordon come off 17,6 ppg season, at age of 21, Murray 16,7 ppg at age of 20.

I never bought idea of Isaac playing SF, and in post i talked about it. So i wanted to trade Gordon for young guard with star potential. In hindsight it was missed opportunity, as Gordon's value over year dipped, and Magic never found star guard.

Man i'm crying for good shooter for 4 years now

[PrimeThyme]

It wasn't that outrages trade idea really. Gordon come off 17,6 ppg season, at age of 21, Murray 16,7 ppg at age of 20.

I never bought idea of Isaac playing SF, and in post i talked about it. So i wanted to trade Gordon for young guard with star potential. In hindsight it was missed opportunity, as Gordon's value over year dipped, and Magic never found star guard.

Man i'm crying for good shooter for 4 years now

Again though, to Gelbe's point, you're conveniently leaving out the fact that everybody was on board with that trade. My reply to you when you quoted me was that I think Murray is a beast but that they wouldn't entertain that offer. It's not like Murray was some diamond in the rough. He was a top 4 pick and was voted most likely to break out by the random GM poll that offseason.

You wanting to trade for Murray doesn't make you some messiah I would have loved to as well but we just didn't have the assets.

[j-ragg]

Murray's draft was the one year where having the 6th pick could've actually gotten us our guy damn it.

[zaymon]

Murray's draft was the one year where having the 6th pick could've actually gotten us our guy damn it.

Thats why you need to know when hit the bottom. We tanked during dark ages of nba draft. I am so glad we resigned Ross and Vucevic or else we would be choosing between Wiseman, Ball and Edwards, ( if lucky) yikes.

[pepe1991]

It wasn't that outrages trade idea really. Gordon come off 17,6 ppg season, at age of 21, Murray 16,7 ppg at age of 20.

I never bought idea of Isaac playing SF, and in post i talked about it. So i wanted to trade Gordon for young guard with star potential. In hindsight it was missed opportunity, as Gordon's value over year dipped, and Magic never found star guard.

Man i'm crying for good shooter for 4 years now

Again though, to Gelbe's point, you're conveniently leaving out the fact that everybody was on board with that trade. My reply to you when you quoted me was that I think Murray is a beast but that they wouldn't entertain that offer. It's not like Murray was some diamond in the rough. He was a top 4 pick and was voted most likely to break out by the random GM poll that offseason.

You wanting to trade for Murray doesn't make you some messiah I would have loved to as well but we just didn't have the assets.

My intention was not to call you out or anything, i copy -pasted whole reply where i mentioned Gordon- Murray trade for first time.

Jamal Murray was 7th pick*

Consensus of him being great wasn't there back when i posted my comment. Back in 2018 people, including some non Magic fans were still waiting for "Paul Gordon" to emrge, so that trade idea wasn't really that wild. Especially if you know that Mudiay was also Nuggets 7th pick from a draft before Murray.
In same period Nuggets had Murray, Mudiay,Morris, Harris, Beasley and Barton all mixed in their guard positions. Matter of fact Murray wasn't even playing PG for most part. Guy was at SG more. ( according to BB reference).
He wasn't even their potent guard that year, Gary Harris averaged more points and was better player across the board - and was SG more than Murray was PG. ( Murray' assist percentages were piss poor )

In that period Paul Milsap was hurt, so it's not like there was no rason for Nuggets to look for different options, while having army of good guards.

[pepe1991]

Murray's draft was the one year where having the 6th pick could've actually gotten us our guy damn it.

media consensus over that draft was that it's 2 men deep draft and nothing else is worth tanking. Yet same draft gave Murray, Siakam, Sabonis, Brown...
That's why i don't belive this draft is that bad.