pepe1991 wrote:Portis is solid backup PF i don't see how Magic interest in him has anything to do with any other move they will or won't make.
Last whole season Magic were without solid backup PF, had to play Isaac and Gordon with bench.
You don’t acquire a 27mpg starting caliber player / sixth man for a decent amount of money if you plan on resigning Vuc and Ross, while also expecting Bamba to take a bigger role. He provides something completely different than Birch and Martin. There wouldn’t be enough minutes to go around and wouldn’t make sense to spend that money at that position instead of the back court if it didn’t mean they were looking for Vuc alternatives.
pepe1991 wrote:Portis is solid backup PF i don't see how Magic interest in him has anything to do with any other move they will or won't make.
Last whole season Magic were without solid backup PF, had to play Isaac and Gordon with bench.
You don’t acquire a 27mpg starting caliber player / sixth man for a decent amount of money if you plan on resigning Vuc and Ross, while also expecting Bamba to take a bigger role. He provides something completely different than Birch and Martin. There wouldn’t be enough minutes to go around and wouldn’t make sense to spend that money at that position instead of the back court if it didn’t mean they were looking for Vuc alternatives.
He is not starting caliber player. Or center. Or 27 mpg player. He only started 49 out of 249 games . 22 of 49 that he started were with Wizards ,along side center Thomas Bryant. His career average in mpg is 20,3. Everything above combined makes him -backup PF. Something that Magic really,really need no matter what they do with Vuc, Ross, 16 pic...
Guy is also best known as guy who beat up teammate during practice. I highly doubt he'll get anything over MLE anywhere he goes.
I find it funny that Bucks are interested, Mirotić probably isn't pleased with that
Life is what happens when you're busy making other plans. -John Lennon
NotACat wrote:Just want to throw this out there if we don't go for D'Lo to get your takes on it with CP3 asking out of Houston.
To Houston (CP3, two 1st round picks, two 2nd round picks out) -Kent Bazemore -Evan Fournier
To Atlanta (Bazemore out) -HOU 2023 2nd round pick -HOU 2nd rounder in 2021 -Mozgov
To Orlando (Fournier and Mozgov out) -CP3 -Orlando has option to swap 1st rounders in 2021 -HOU unprotected 1st round pick in 2022 -HOU unprotected 1st round pick 2024
Atlanta cuts some money, turns Bazemore into 2 second rounders.
Houston moves on from CP3, gets 2 wings who are historically average and above average shooters and can rebound.
Orlando decides to take on the albatross of CP3, gets 1st rounders in return, gets a veteran to help the young players take the next step and push the team to the next level as we wait on Fultz.
Orlando sends: Evan Fournier + Timothy Mosgov Houston sends: Chris Paul + 2020 pick swap + 2021 first round pick
Or we just send them Mosgov, Augustine, renounce Grant, Birch, etc and absorb the rest of his contract (if we can)
I know his contract will look terrible in 2 years, but unless we are getting Russell, resigning Vucevic and Ross for 3 years and pairing them with Paul is a great move to stay and be more competitive, and will have them all expire together, Gordon included (hopefully resigned).
Have you guys looked at CP3 contract? Hes already 34 and making something like 39m-41m-44m over the next 3 years. I seriously doubt anyone is touching that contract
I’ve seen it, it has 3 years though, if we don’t get Russell or Walker he’s the next best option, 2020 there are no free agents, then in the summer of 2021 he’s an expiring. If we bring him in with Ross and Vucevic would all expire in the summer of 2022 with Gordon. Hopefully resign Gordon with massive cap space for some free agents. It’s not ideal or the best scenario, but it’s one where we get an elite point guard for at least 2 years
Bensational wrote: Vuc took the shots, but he was terrible at them. 43% TS, which was the worst amongst our 6 most common players on the court in clutch situations, and even worse than Isaac who was 45%. Vuc shot 37.8% in clutch situations overall, which were mostly 2's. Of the few 3's he took in these situations, he shot just 6.3%. He rarely got to the FT line, but even when he did, he shot 69.7% from the line. That's why in the playoffs I was saying it wasn't surprising, because Vuc doesn't handle pressure well, at all. He rushes shots, doesn't have the ability to get separation from his defender, and even guards have been enough to defend him and force him into a bad shot when he's got the advantage on a switch. That's not to say that the others did a lot to help him. But, as far as him being a reliable offensive option in the 4th, Vuc is one of the worst in the league in those situations, particularly when compared to players of his 'calibre'.
DJ had the best TS% in the clutch, should he be the closer then? Why not?
Maybe its because clutch isn't all about efficiency, but which player is able to absorb the brunt of the defense and still generate FGA's for himself and have enough gravity to ease them for others when teams tighten their defense to close games.
Its tough, even for better offensive players than Vucevic, to have much success if they're the only guy with any gravity in that situation. That's what Vucevic faced most clutch situations...at best there might be Ross if it was a lucky night were was hot coinciding with a close game.
Without Vucevic, most nights the Magic wouldn't be within a 5 point margin at the end of games...and they certainly aren't in the playoffs. Are the other 43 minutes of the game meaningless?
Bensational wrote: We've only got a 1 game sample from last season of the team sans Vuc, which was the final game of the season. Here's the boxscore.It's impossible to draw a long term conclusion from that game as to how the team would handle a full season without Vuc, but in this one example, the points did upscale. It would be ridiculous to assume Gordon could average 27ppg, or Ross averages 35ppg to make that result happen every time. In terms of a difference offense, you'd have to add the players to build the kind of offense you want. A backcourt that's capable of scoring every night, unlike DJ and Fournier. If we had a better backcourt, then we could run an offense more like what Clifford ran with Zeller/Williams/MKG/Batum/Walker - which was the lineup from his most successful season in Charlotte. The offensive rating dip isn't good, but when discussing Vuc's impact as a scorer on the team, I don't think they factor in how effective and influential the pure defensive hustle of our 2nd units was. Birch grabbed, what felt like, many more offensive rebounds and 2nd chance points, MCW was smothering on defense, and whilst the play was ugly and inefficient, it more often than not kept us ahead of the opposition. I'm not proposing that as a starting lineup, just pointing out that chemistry can still bee a big factor on trading points. Removing Vuc would be a sign of WeHam addressing the larger concern, that we don't have a strong enough backcourt or perimeter playmakers yet. Hopefully the changes they make to that would offset the loss of Vuc (+ Ross), whilst a cheaper role-playing big man just gets the job done.
A one game sample is ridiculous - it means nothing. If you look at the other game that he missed; the one vs San Antonio...the Magic got pulverized...blown out by 40 points. Yikes. Gordon had 12 points and Ross had 7. Here is that boxscore
But there is no need to look at small samples like that. The On/Off stat tells you how the Magic did with Vucevic off the floor:
When Vucevic was on the floor the Offensive Rating was 109.7...but as soon as he sat it cratered to a 100.3 Offensive Rating. That's a 9.4 differential drop off. That's more than "not good" its absolutely atrocious. Overall, the Magic had a +9.6 NET Rating uptick with Vucevic on the floor. Its insane that some on this sub think his impact isn't meaningful and easily replaceable.
If you isolate the period after Bamba injury, when Birch took over. The Offensive Rating with Vucevic was 112.9, and 107.9 when he sat. So while the offense was overall better, there was still a 5.0 drop off when he sat. The Defensive Rating also had a drop off: 102.6 with Vucevic, 104.4 when he sat.
Vucevic leaving isn't WelHam removing him...he's an unrestricted free agent - he'd be leaving to a situation of his choosing. It will either be a situation he likes better than the Magic or a bigger payday than the Magic could afford at the stage they are in.
So who becomes "the closer" if Vuvevic leaves? AG who shot .530 TS% - and that's with Vucevic and Ross drawing all the attention on defense? Isaac? Bamba? Fultz?
Here's the free agent list...show me who that player is that is likely to join a small market team that just lost its best player, which of course likely means they also just lost their second best player. If the Magic renounce everyone and stretch Mozgov, they can have $28.8m. What's your plan for this backcourt upgrade while also adding a big?
MagicMatic wrote: You don’t acquire a 27mpg starting caliber player / sixth man for a decent amount of money if you plan on resigning Vuc and Ross, while also expecting Bamba to take a bigger role. He provides something completely different than Birch and Martin. There wouldn’t be enough minutes to go around and wouldn’t make sense to spend that money at that position instead of the back court if it didn’t mean they were looking for Vuc alternatives.
Vucevic and Ross are unrestricted, the FO "can plan to sign them" and offer them more $ than anyone and still not get them. The FO researching options for all possible scenarios is their job.
KD & Klay injuries coupled with Raps winning the championship have changed FA landscape quite a bit, IMO. If all of them resign with their current teams, there will be a lot money floating around the league with no superstar to sign - meaning some overpaying are about to happen.
MagicMatic wrote: You don’t acquire a 27mpg starting caliber player / sixth man for a decent amount of money if you plan on resigning Vuc and Ross, while also expecting Bamba to take a bigger role. He provides something completely different than Birch and Martin. There wouldn’t be enough minutes to go around and wouldn’t make sense to spend that money at that position instead of the back court if it didn’t mean they were looking for Vuc alternatives.
Vucevic and Ross are unrestricted, the FO "can plan to sign them" and offer them more $ than anyone and still not get them. The FO researching options for all possible scenarios is their job.
So, Garland having a last-minute workout for NYK...if he gets there somehow (pick swap, etc) does DSJ become in play? Another two ball-pounder conflict brewing (DLo/Kyrie, Luka/DSJ, Harden/CP3)...it just doesn't maximize the players value...Also, if we were to get CP3, it would be a s**tshow-he'd come in with piss and vinegar to "prove em wrong" and by December, he'd be bitching and tanking while collecting so much money, he'd be unmoveable. He's still a very good player but if he's not contending or co-existing with another big name- his same fiery attributes quickly become destructive. He'd be a great Laker if not for the absurd $$$.
MagicMatic wrote: You don’t acquire a 27mpg starting caliber player / sixth man for a decent amount of money if you plan on resigning Vuc and Ross, while also expecting Bamba to take a bigger role. He provides something completely different than Birch and Martin. There wouldn’t be enough minutes to go around and wouldn’t make sense to spend that money at that position instead of the back court if it didn’t mean they were looking for Vuc alternatives.
Vucevic and Ross are unrestricted, the FO "can plan to sign them" and offer them more $ than anyone and still not get them. The FO researching options for all possible scenarios is their job.
Agents will continue to use our team having "interest" to boost their FA market. Our FO is tight lipped, ain't nothing leaking so it has to be an agent talking
Bensational wrote: Vuc took the shots, but he was terrible at them. 43% TS, which was the worst amongst our 6 most common players on the court in clutch situations, and even worse than Isaac who was 45%. Vuc shot 37.8% in clutch situations overall, which were mostly 2's. Of the few 3's he took in these situations, he shot just 6.3%. He rarely got to the FT line, but even when he did, he shot 69.7% from the line. That's why in the playoffs I was saying it wasn't surprising, because Vuc doesn't handle pressure well, at all. He rushes shots, doesn't have the ability to get separation from his defender, and even guards have been enough to defend him and force him into a bad shot when he's got the advantage on a switch. That's not to say that the others did a lot to help him. But, as far as him being a reliable offensive option in the 4th, Vuc is one of the worst in the league in those situations, particularly when compared to players of his 'calibre'.
DJ had the best TS% in the clutch, should he be the closer then? Why not?
Maybe its because clutch isn't all about efficiency, but which player is able to absorb the brunt of the defense and still generate FGA's for himself and have enough gravity to ease them for others when teams tighten their defense to close games.
Its tough, even for better offensive players than Vucevic, to have much success if they're the only guy with any gravity in that situation. That's what Vucevic faced most clutch situations...at best there might be Ross if it was a lucky night were was hot coinciding with a close game.
Without Vucevic, most nights the Magic wouldn't be within a 5 point margin at the end of games...and they certainly aren't in the playoffs. Are the other 43 minutes of the game meaningless?
I disagree. Hoisting shots isn't as valuable as a player who's taking good shots on high percentages, especially if the hoists aren't even getting you to the line. There are players that will 'hit shots', but they generally rely on someone who can 'go get a basket'. If a player is a 'go get a basket' type, they'll either generate a good look, draw contact, or draw the defense, find the open man - and bonus if that can free up 'hit a shot' for a clutch shot.
Vuc is at most capable of 2 of those 4 (he can draw defense and hit the open man), and the other 2 have never been strengths of his at this point in his career (create a shot, draw contact). I would like to see him get to play with a closer who can take that pressure off him, to see if it allows Vuc to relax and settle back into the smooth offense that carried him through the other 3 quarters. But, that would take some kind of clever trade that didn't involve Bamba, Isaac or Fultz. Who knows what could be done with Gordon/Fournier/Augustin/#16?
But the team needs to find a new option next season. At this point, there's little reason not to give Gordon the shots, since the bar hasn't been set extremely high by Vuc or Fournier.
ezzzp wrote:
Spoiler:
Bensational wrote: We've only got a 1 game sample from last season of the team sans Vuc, which was the final game of the season. Here's the boxscore.It's impossible to draw a long term conclusion from that game as to how the team would handle a full season without Vuc, but in this one example, the points did upscale. It would be ridiculous to assume Gordon could average 27ppg, or Ross averages 35ppg to make that result happen every time. In terms of a difference offense, you'd have to add the players to build the kind of offense you want. A backcourt that's capable of scoring every night, unlike DJ and Fournier. If we had a better backcourt, then we could run an offense more like what Clifford ran with Zeller/Williams/MKG/Batum/Walker - which was the lineup from his most successful season in Charlotte. The offensive rating dip isn't good, but when discussing Vuc's impact as a scorer on the team, I don't think they factor in how effective and influential the pure defensive hustle of our 2nd units was. Birch grabbed, what felt like, many more offensive rebounds and 2nd chance points, MCW was smothering on defense, and whilst the play was ugly and inefficient, it more often than not kept us ahead of the opposition. I'm not proposing that as a starting lineup, just pointing out that chemistry can still bee a big factor on trading points. Removing Vuc would be a sign of WeHam addressing the larger concern, that we don't have a strong enough backcourt or perimeter playmakers yet. Hopefully the changes they make to that would offset the loss of Vuc (+ Ross), whilst a cheaper role-playing big man just gets the job done.
A one game sample is ridiculous - it means nothing. If you look at the other game that he missed; the one vs San Antonio...the Magic got pulverized...blown out by 40 points. Yikes. Gordon had 12 points and Ross had 7. Here is that boxscore
You're absolutely right, I'd completely forgot there was another game Vuc missed. Well, there we go, that looks like a 50/50 team, capable of going either way. Good for, say, 41-41, being 50/50 and all. Therefore, Vuc is worth 1 game. Boom - science math ftw.
(I'm mocking myself here and just being a goof, so don't take this as directed at you.).
ezzzp wrote:But there is no need to look at small samples like that. The On/Off stat tells you how the Magic did with Vucevic off the floor:
When Vucevic was on the floor the Offensive Rating was 109.7...but as soon as he sat it cratered to a 100.3 Offensive Rating. That's a 9.4 differential drop off. That's more than "not good" its absolutely atrocious. Overall, the Magic had a +9.6 NET Rating uptick with Vucevic on the floor. Its insane that some on this sub think his impact isn't meaningful and easily replaceable.
If you isolate the period after Bamba injury, when Birch took over. The Offensive Rating with Vucevic was 112.9, and 107.9 when he sat. So while the offense was overall better, there was still a 5.0 drop off when he sat. The Defensive Rating also had a drop off: 102.6 with Vucevic, 104.4 when he sat.
Looking at the post allstar break lineups, it's interesting to see that of the 6 most frequently used lineups (50mins or more), the lineup with the highest netrtg was Birch/Gordon/Ross/Fournier/MCW. Depending on how the Magic run the offseason, that might be a lineup we see more often next season.
Now, I'll confess upfront, that's cherry picked out from handful of our best netrtgs, and almost all of the rest include Vuc. Vuc certainly stabilised the team, no question about that.
ezzzp wrote:Vucevic leaving isn't WelHam removing him...he's an unrestricted free agent - he'd be leaving to a situation of his choosing. It will either be a situation he likes better than the Magic or a bigger payday than the Magic could afford at the stage they are in.
So who becomes "the closer" if Vuvevic leaves? AG who shot .530 TS% - and that's with Vucevic and Ross drawing all the attention on defense? Isaac? Bamba? Fultz?
Here's the free agent list...show me who that player is that is likely to join a small market team that just lost its best player, which of course likely means they also just lost their second best player. If the Magic renounce everyone and stretch Mozgov, they can have $28.8m. What's your plan for this backcourt upgrade while also adding a big?
Alright, this is the whim I'm riding at the moment (as in, this very moment - it changes all the time).
CLE: Fournier ($17M) + Mozgov ($16M) + DJ Augustin ($7.25) + (Top 20 Protected FRP / or a #16 for #26 swap if they insist) (TOTAL: $40.25M approx)
ORL: JR Smith ($15.6M / 3.8 guar) + Knight ($15.6M) + Henson ($10.4M) (TOTAL: $29.8M approx)
After declining Smith's deal, this move wipes $11M off our cap, taking us down to $75M active roster, leaving $34M in cap space.
Brandon Knight then becomes the big question. Do WeHam feel he has a solid year in him as backup PG or potential starting PG? Or do we stretch him? He was on a 5 year deal, so can we stretch him 5 years then, right? Making him only count for $3M per season, saving us another $12M. Giving us a grand total of $46M in cap space.
Who to chase?
D'Lo ($27.9M) + George Hill ($10M) + Mario ($4M) + Birch ($3M) Bonga ($1M) + MCW ($1M) - (Or, Vuc, if he'll accept the remaining $18M, or a bit more if we can trade Henson)
MagicMatic wrote: You don’t acquire a 27mpg starting caliber player / sixth man for a decent amount of money if you plan on resigning Vuc and Ross, while also expecting Bamba to take a bigger role. He provides something completely different than Birch and Martin. There wouldn’t be enough minutes to go around and wouldn’t make sense to spend that money at that position instead of the back court if it didn’t mean they were looking for Vuc alternatives.
Vucevic and Ross are unrestricted, the FO "can plan to sign them" and offer them more $ than anyone and still not get them. The FO researching options for all possible scenarios is their job.
Vucevic and Ross are unrestricted, the FO "can plan to sign them" and offer them more $ than anyone and still not get them. The FO researching options for all possible scenarios is their job.
After 1 year of playoffs, Magic fans are ready for another 7 years rebuild
I’m not, but if the plan is to replace Vuc with the likes of Portis then obviously that’s the plan. If they’re moving on from Nik then whats the point of signing this clown? Just let Bamba fumble through the season again in hopes that he shows some semblance of being and NBA player.
After 1 year of playoffs, Magic fans are ready for another 7 years rebuild
I’m not, but if the plan is to replace Vuc with the likes of Portis then obviously that’s the plan. If they’re moving on from Nik then whats the point of signing this clown? Just let Bamba fumble through the season again in hopes that he shows some semblance of being and NBA player.
Portis is good competition to fight for starting job, but literally ,fight
Life is what happens when you're busy making other plans. -John Lennon
MagicMatic wrote: You don’t acquire a 27mpg starting caliber player / sixth man for a decent amount of money if you plan on resigning Vuc and Ross, while also expecting Bamba to take a bigger role. He provides something completely different than Birch and Martin. There wouldn’t be enough minutes to go around and wouldn’t make sense to spend that money at that position instead of the back court if it didn’t mean they were looking for Vuc alternatives.
Vucevic and Ross are unrestricted, the FO "can plan to sign them" and offer them more $ than anyone and still not get them. The FO researching options for all possible scenarios is their job.
Vucevic and Ross are unrestricted, the FO "can plan to sign them" and offer them more $ than anyone and still not get them. The FO researching options for all possible scenarios is their job.
MagicMatic wrote: You don’t acquire a 27mpg starting caliber player / sixth man for a decent amount of money if you plan on resigning Vuc and Ross, while also expecting Bamba to take a bigger role. He provides something completely different than Birch and Martin. There wouldn’t be enough minutes to go around and wouldn’t make sense to spend that money at that position instead of the back court if it didn’t mean they were looking for Vuc alternatives.
Vucevic and Ross are unrestricted, the FO "can plan to sign them" and offer them more $ than anyone and still not get them. The FO researching options for all possible scenarios is their job.
He played 27mpg last season. He gets nowhere near that with Cliffords rotation of Ross coming off the bench with a staggered Isaac/AG. The point is that inquiring about Portis without solving other more glaring issues says they might have bigger plans in place.. that’s it. Portis isn’t replacing Vuc.. Bamba is.
Wonder if Isaiah Thomas is still on our radar after bringing him in and supposedly offering him a contract last year. Dude should be healthy now and we're technically a winning team currently. He seems like a good back-up plan to D'Lo for a year or two until we for sure know what we have in Fultz.
He'd also be the "closer" we need to give Vuc some relief (if we re-sign Vuc).
swarlesbarkley wrote:Wonder if Isaiah Thomas is still on our radar after bringing him in and supposedly offering him a contract last year. Dude should be healthy now and we're technically a winning team currently. He seems like a good back-up plan to D'Lo for a year or two until we for sure know what we have in Fultz.
He'd also be the "closer" we need to give Vuc some relief (if we re-sign Vuc).
Decent starting line-up. Bench relies a lot on DJ to get points and for Bamba to improve, Fultz to be healthy, or #16 to produce right away.
DJ is better than IT right now. IT is a chucker and simply can't score like he used to before his injury, he also can't create for others anymore. No point bringing him here.
swarlesbarkley wrote:Wonder if Isaiah Thomas is still on our radar after bringing him in and supposedly offering him a contract last year. Dude should be healthy now and we're technically a winning team currently. He seems like a good back-up plan to D'Lo for a year or two until we for sure know what we have in Fultz.
He'd also be the "closer" we need to give Vuc some relief (if we re-sign Vuc).
Decent starting line-up. Bench relies a lot on DJ to get points and for Bamba to improve, Fultz to be healthy, or #16 to produce right away.
DJ is better than IT right now. IT is a chucker and simply can't score like he used to before his injury, he also can't create for others anymore. No point bringing him here.
And how did you come to this conclusion?Where did you see him play after injury to make these claims may I ask?
