Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 V: Purgatory

[zaymon]

Still, those are players franchise is investing money and time to take them somwhere.
And let's be 100% honest here,those are not guys that will really get you anywhere.

Gordon is next year 7th year pro, who spent 7 of Magic 9 rebuild years on that team. After year 4, when he was 22, growth of him as a player simply stopped. He is stailing and being same player for 2 years straight. it's unreasonable to expect any growth at this point.
( 4 years, $80 000 000 contract ). Long term investment that is not paying off.

Isaac had nice development, he never had offensive side of a game developed but that's not main issue with him. It's his health.
It's unreasonable to expect more than 50-60 games a year and injury- riddled career going forward if he can't stay health at such young age already. I might be wrong but his left leg injuries date back to highschool?

( $ 7 362 000 of cap space dead for 2020-21 season, pending FA, questionable recovery, 4th major injury on same leg ).


Fultz. 3rd year player babied by calling him rookie.
No improvments after year and half of rehab in his outside shooting stroke. No surgery done. Very little reasons to belive he will one day just rework his shot from condition. Very expensive rookie contract. Very average season even by rookie standards ( witch, he is not ).
$12 200 000 commited for next season, pending RFA. Expensivs QO worth $10M


Mo Bamba. Very low value as player, gets all benefits of a doubt ( for example had to leave bubble to recover from condition, cleared to practice 4 days after Magic were eliminated from playoffs )
Very little development from year to year two. Over time lost PT to third string C. Questionable durability, mobility, agility, athletis, intangibles...
Makes $ 6 000 000 next year, 4th year option worth $ 7,5M, QO worth almost $11M


And where on surface non of them is breaking your bank and they are on allegedly "cheap rookie deals", their cumulative salaries, along with pending FAs actually stuff cap space.

Magic will, for service of Bamba, Isaac and Gordon ( where in reality 1 won't play) still cash in $31 400 000. Again, they will only play just Bamba and Gordon for that money.

Cap space of this team while being forced to blindfolded exstension of Isaac and benefits of a doubt for Fultz is living nighmare.

Gordon as a 4th pick has pretty much panned out as well as reasonably expected. I would agree that he never reached our highest of hopes, but when you look at the results of that draft.... Wiggins, Parker, Embiid, Gordon, Exum, Smart, Randle, Stauskas, Vonleh, Payton. We never missed out on any All-Star. His declining contract is palatable. Magic never made a good honest effort in treating him like a star, building the right players around him, or featuring him in the offensive game plan. His developmental years were tarnished. Gave Tobias a max contract, drafted Hezonja, Skiles hated him, gave Jeff Green a $17M one year deal, drafted Isaac. It's amazing Gordon has gotten where he is. The fact that some people in the internet world are talking about using him as a trade chip in a package to get the #2 pick is a testament to him. May not be a star, but I don't see him as a problem. He takes on hard defensive assignments, he moves the ball, he affects the game in a positive way without the ball.

Couldn't find anything about Isaac having an injury history dated back to high school. No reason to write off his future. Porzingis and Lavine have recently made successful returns. Rondo, Gallinari, Lou Williams, Rubio, Dinwiddie, Exum, Livingston, Parker, Rose.... all these guys have all returned. Stop trying to spread fear factor.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Isaac#High_school_career

You were wrong about Fultz this past season. His future is bright. Lick your wounds and move on.

Bamba just finished his second season (first season of Vuc's brand new deal). Don't bash him for failing to meet your expectations, because you had zero expectation for him to begin with when the season started. You wanted Vuc. You wanted Bamba to be benched. His PER 40 numbers are better than you preach. On par with Gobert. His body improvement was nothing short of impressive. Give the man credit. He is still a reliable source for rebounds, blocks and floor spacing. Don't prematurely write him off just because it fits your bias and narrative.

When you add Okeke to that group, these are the only guys that give the Magic any glimpse of "hope" for a better future. The vets are stop gaps and road blocks. Nothing more.

I just wanted to say a few words about Gordon. He joined the team as a mediocre shooter. Through hard work he changed his form to the point where he can reliably hit three’s. The first time I saw him post up—back when Skiles was here—Gordon had a turnaround jumper. These days Gordon reliably feasts on wings in the post. Gordon has added dribble moves—and he can get to the basket, though he hasn’t seen consistent results from his moves—and he’s added a pull-up and fadeaway, which have been slightly better. Blaming his failures as a player on circumstance is to ignore how raw he was when we drafted him and how much he’s improved over the years.

We tried to feature him under Vogel but it went terribly. He has no skill besides athletecism that even whisper star player, and even his athletecism lacks coordination and fluidity. Vogel wanted to start transition with Gordon, it was 20 % of his offense and he was in 24 percentile. He cant be used as a pnr ball handler( mid 30 percentile last year, 19 this year )and he cant go to the rim without a screen. Awful in isolation. Clifford is a creative guy, so we started to post him up more to cut his dribbling. He went from 9% frequency under Vogel to 15 under Clifford, but he is still in only 57 percentile, average to death. His most efficient offense is being a roll man, but we dont use him much in that roll. Propably becouse he is not a threat in pick and pop and also making opposing teams mobile 4s to drop is not the best idea.

[pepe1991]

Gordon is 31,9% three point shooter. League average is 35,8%.
Gordon shoots 28% from pull up jumpers. Second worst among players who took at least 200 attemps.
Among players who had at least 50 postups, his FG% didn't crack top 60.

Among players who took at least 100 catch&shoot threes, his 32,8% didn't crack top 150.
As pick&roll handler, he shoots 30% after being involved in such plays.



What he does well ? Well he scored 31 points on 57% eFG in sitauations where he is rolling big. Issue? He doesn't like to play as big.

So what execlly he does well to be viewed "reliable" shooter or scorer? Nothing. Literally nothing. Most of his points, that he actually meangaes to score are transition layups/dunks. Spoiler alert: everbody can score layups and transition points just as easly, even Iwundu.



To reply to Skin and his post.
per 40 min as "Gobert comparisons " are pretty lame attemp to defend fact Bamba is 5 ppg player who never scored 16 points in his career, while collecting 109 games. Even if he somehow turns into somewhat playable, that's not player that is connerstone of anything.


Isaac during his rookie contract played 136 out of 323 games ( rulled out for 2020-21 already).
That's playing rate of 42%. What execlly makes you confident that he will be able to play more games later if he can't stay healthy as youngster?


So without bringing Fultz into descusion, Magic " young core" is: one guy who can't outplay Birch, one painfully average starter who's strenght is something he doesn't like to do and one player that at average plays 32 games a year.

[Skin]

Gordon is 31,9% three point shooter. League average is 35,8%.
Gordon shoots 28% from pull up jumpers. Second worst among players who took at least 200 attemps.
Among players who had at least 50 postups, his FG% didn't crack top 60.

Among players who took at least 100 catch&shoot threes, his 32,8% didn't crack top 150.
As pick&roll handler, he shoots 30% after being involved in such plays.



What he does well ? Well he scored 31 points on 57% eFG in sitauations where he is rolling big. Issue? He doesn't like to play as big.

So what execlly he does well to be viewed "reliable" shooter or scorer? Nothing. Literally nothing. Most of his points, that he actually meangaes to score are transition layups/dunks. Spoiler alert: everbody can score layups and transition points just as easly, even Iwundu.



To reply to Skin and his post.
per 40 min as "Gobert comparisons " are pretty lame attemp to defend fact Bamba is 5 ppg player who never scored 16 points in his career, while collecting 109 games. Even if he somehow turns into somewhat playable, that's not player that is connerstone of anything.


Isaac during his rookie contract played 136 out of 323 games ( rulled out for 2020-21 already).
That's playing rate of 42%. What execlly makes you confident that he will be able to play more games later if he can't stay healthy as youngster?


So without bringing Fultz into descusion, Magic " young core" is: one guy who can't outplay Birch, one painfully average starter who's strenght is something he doesn't like to do and one player that at average plays 32 games a year.

Gordon is still a good defender, passer and rebounder, so he can still have a positive impact on the game without having the ball in his hands. But what has disappointed me most is his lack of aggression. Driving through traffic, enforcing his will, being physical against his opponents, drawing fouls. He's got a great frame, but he doesn't have a physical mindset. It frustrates me to no end. He's still a good player, not flawless, but not terrible either. Like I keep saying, building a team means balancing strengths and weaknesses. Who thinks we've done that? In the end, he's a Henny guy though and WeHam must reshape this roster in their vision of what they think is a winner.

Isaac's injuries are concerning, but is it reason to give up all hope like you have? Ummm, no. Period. End of story. ACL surgeries have been mastered. Even the speed of return is getting faster and faster. You tried to spread rumors of his injury history dating back to high school, but got caught trying to make up your own storylines again. The fact that we will have to wait for his recovery sucks really bad, but that does not equate to the end of his career.

You on board with Fultz yet? Or does he have to have zero flaws like Michael Jordan?

[pepe1991]

Gordon is 31,9% three point shooter. League average is 35,8%.
Gordon shoots 28% from pull up jumpers. Second worst among players who took at least 200 attemps.
Among players who had at least 50 postups, his FG% didn't crack top 60.

Among players who took at least 100 catch&shoot threes, his 32,8% didn't crack top 150.
As pick&roll handler, he shoots 30% after being involved in such plays.



What he does well ? Well he scored 31 points on 57% eFG in sitauations where he is rolling big. Issue? He doesn't like to play as big.

So what execlly he does well to be viewed "reliable" shooter or scorer? Nothing. Literally nothing. Most of his points, that he actually meangaes to score are transition layups/dunks. Spoiler alert: everbody can score layups and transition points just as easly, even Iwundu.



To reply to Skin and his post.
per 40 min as "Gobert comparisons " are pretty lame attemp to defend fact Bamba is 5 ppg player who never scored 16 points in his career, while collecting 109 games. Even if he somehow turns into somewhat playable, that's not player that is connerstone of anything.


Isaac during his rookie contract played 136 out of 323 games ( rulled out for 2020-21 already).
That's playing rate of 42%. What execlly makes you confident that he will be able to play more games later if he can't stay healthy as youngster?


So without bringing Fultz into descusion, Magic " young core" is: one guy who can't outplay Birch, one painfully average starter who's strenght is something he doesn't like to do and one player that at average plays 32 games a year.

Gordon is still a good defender, passer and rebounder, so he can still have a positive impact on the game without having the ball in his hands. But what has disappointed me most is his lack of aggression. Driving through traffic, enforcing his will, being physical against his opponents, drawing fouls. He's got a great frame, but he doesn't have a physical mindset. It frustrates me to no end. He's still a good player, not flawless, but not terrible either. Like I keep saying, building a team means balancing strengths and weaknesses. Who thinks we've done that? In the end, he's a Henny guy though and WeHam must reshape this roster in their vision of what they think is a winner.

Isaac's injuries are concerning, but is it reason to give up all hope like you have? Ummm, no. Period. End of story. ACL surgeries have been mastered. Even the speed of return is getting faster and faster. You tried to spread rumors of his injury history dating back to high school, but got caught trying to make up your own storylines again. The fact that we will have to wait for his recovery sucks really bad, but that does not equate to the end of his career.

You on board with Fultz yet? Or does he have to have zero flaws like Michael Jordan?

Gordon is painfully average starter.

Isaac has: ACL tear, MCL tear, LCL injury ( basically Posterolateral Corner Injury) over a span of 8 months, with 6 monts of not playing in between and prior all that, same leg, high ankle sprain that took him forever to recover. Also both ACL and MCL tears ( happend in some moment ) were non-contact injury. So it's not like he got pushed and his body couldn't handle it, it was him landing awkwardly on his own.
Every single jump he makes is on left leg, every single injury he sustains is - on left leg.

Fultz is guard who can't shoot 3s. That's enough data for somebody who understand modern basketball.

Players can have flaws, even Jordan had flaws. But those guys are just average nba players with huge limitations. Not flaws. Limitations. Especially Gordon who for 6 years proves he is nothing but average starter on below average team.

[zaymon]

I am so eager to see how we would perform with Fultz shooting 3s and without Gordon. Is it too much too ask ?

[Skin]

Gordon is 31,9% three point shooter. League average is 35,8%.
Gordon shoots 28% from pull up jumpers. Second worst among players who took at least 200 attemps.
Among players who had at least 50 postups, his FG% didn't crack top 60.

Among players who took at least 100 catch&shoot threes, his 32,8% didn't crack top 150.
As pick&roll handler, he shoots 30% after being involved in such plays.



What he does well ? Well he scored 31 points on 57% eFG in sitauations where he is rolling big. Issue? He doesn't like to play as big.

So what execlly he does well to be viewed "reliable" shooter or scorer? Nothing. Literally nothing. Most of his points, that he actually meangaes to score are transition layups/dunks. Spoiler alert: everbody can score layups and transition points just as easly, even Iwundu.



To reply to Skin and his post.
per 40 min as "Gobert comparisons " are pretty lame attemp to defend fact Bamba is 5 ppg player who never scored 16 points in his career, while collecting 109 games. Even if he somehow turns into somewhat playable, that's not player that is connerstone of anything.


Isaac during his rookie contract played 136 out of 323 games ( rulled out for 2020-21 already).
That's playing rate of 42%. What execlly makes you confident that he will be able to play more games later if he can't stay healthy as youngster?


So without bringing Fultz into descusion, Magic " young core" is: one guy who can't outplay Birch, one painfully average starter who's strenght is something he doesn't like to do and one player that at average plays 32 games a year.

Gordon is still a good defender, passer and rebounder, so he can still have a positive impact on the game without having the ball in his hands. But what has disappointed me most is his lack of aggression. Driving through traffic, enforcing his will, being physical against his opponents, drawing fouls. He's got a great frame, but he doesn't have a physical mindset. It frustrates me to no end. He's still a good player, not flawless, but not terrible either. Like I keep saying, building a team means balancing strengths and weaknesses. Who thinks we've done that? In the end, he's a Henny guy though and WeHam must reshape this roster in their vision of what they think is a winner.

Isaac's injuries are concerning, but is it reason to give up all hope like you have? Ummm, no. Period. End of story. ACL surgeries have been mastered. Even the speed of return is getting faster and faster. You tried to spread rumors of his injury history dating back to high school, but got caught trying to make up your own storylines again. The fact that we will have to wait for his recovery sucks really bad, but that does not equate to the end of his career.

You on board with Fultz yet? Or does he have to have zero flaws like Michael Jordan?

Gordon is painfully average starter.

Isaac has: ACL tear, MCL tear, LCL injury ( basically Posterolateral Corner Injury) over a span of 8 months, with 6 monts of not playing in between and prior all that, same leg, high ankle sprain that took him forever to recover. Also both ACL and MCL tears ( happend in some moment ) were non-contact injury. So it's not like he got pushed and his body couldn't handle it, it was him landing awkwardly on his own.
Every single jump he makes is on left leg, every single injury he sustains is - on left leg.

Fultz is guard who can't shoot 3s. That's enough data for somebody who understand modern basketball.

Players can have flaws, even Jordan had flaws. But those guys are just average nba players with huge limitations. Not flaws. Limitations. Especially Gordon who for 6 years proves he is nothing but average starter on below average team.

Gordon is one of Henny's guys. I've been preaching that they need to go. He's been here long enough that we know what he is and his upside "with this team" has hit a max. Maybe on the Warriors, he takes it up a notch. I"m just not gonna sit here and blame him for the Magic's woes. That draft didn't produce stars in the Top 10 and we didn't do him any favors in developing him.

Isaac will be back from injury just like the countless others. What a drama queen.

Fultz is still an improving player. He made you eat crow this year, so I get your frustration with him stands from an even worse bias now than it was before. He shot over 40% from 3 at Washington, so it could just be a matter of time before he regains his range. There's no reason to doubt that after the season he's coming off of. When the bright lights came on in the playoffs, he shot 35.5% from 3. Wide open, sure... but he's a guy who can create space for his shots, so you can feel good about the idea that if he extends his range, he'll still be able to create his own separation.

...and please tell Pat Riley that his idea of modern basketball sucks because Jimmy Butler can't shoot 3s.

[zaymon]

Gordon is still a good defender, passer and rebounder, so he can still have a positive impact on the game without having the ball in his hands. But what has disappointed me most is his lack of aggression. Driving through traffic, enforcing his will, being physical against his opponents, drawing fouls. He's got a great frame, but he doesn't have a physical mindset. It frustrates me to no end. He's still a good player, not flawless, but not terrible either. Like I keep saying, building a team means balancing strengths and weaknesses. Who thinks we've done that? In the end, he's a Henny guy though and WeHam must reshape this roster in their vision of what they think is a winner.

Isaac's injuries are concerning, but is it reason to give up all hope like you have? Ummm, no. Period. End of story. ACL surgeries have been mastered. Even the speed of return is getting faster and faster. You tried to spread rumors of his injury history dating back to high school, but got caught trying to make up your own storylines again. The fact that we will have to wait for his recovery sucks really bad, but that does not equate to the end of his career.

You on board with Fultz yet? Or does he have to have zero flaws like Michael Jordan?

Gordon is painfully average starter.

Isaac has: ACL tear, MCL tear, LCL injury ( basically Posterolateral Corner Injury) over a span of 8 months, with 6 monts of not playing in between and prior all that, same leg, high ankle sprain that took him forever to recover. Also both ACL and MCL tears ( happend in some moment ) were non-contact injury. So it's not like he got pushed and his body couldn't handle it, it was him landing awkwardly on his own.
Every single jump he makes is on left leg, every single injury he sustains is - on left leg.

Fultz is guard who can't shoot 3s. That's enough data for somebody who understand modern basketball.

Players can have flaws, even Jordan had flaws. But those guys are just average nba players with huge limitations. Not flaws. Limitations. Especially Gordon who for 6 years proves he is nothing but average starter on below average team.

Gordon is one of Henny's guys. I've been preaching that they need to go. He's been here long enough that we know what he is and his upside "with this team" has hit a max. Maybe on the Warriors, he takes it up a notch. I"m just not gonna sit here and blame him for the Magic's woes. That draft didn't produce stars in the Top 10 and we didn't do him any favors in developing him.

Isaac will be back from injury just like the countless others. What a drama queen.

Fultz is still an improving player. He made you eat crow this year, so I get your frustration with him stands from an even worse bias now than it was before. He shot over 40% from 3 at Washington, so it could just be a matter of time before he regains his range. There's no reason to doubt that after the season he's coming off of. When the bright lights came on in the playoffs, he shot 35.5% from 3. Wide open, sure... but he's a guy who can create space for his shots, so you can feel good about the idea that if he extends his range, he'll still be able to create his own separation.

...and please tell Pat Riley that his idea of modern basketball sucks because Jimmy Butler can't shoot 3s.

I think we did Gordon too many favors. He should never had so much on ball responsibility. He worked on his "star package" which never became remotly efficient.

[pepe1991]

Gordon is still a good defender, passer and rebounder, so he can still have a positive impact on the game without having the ball in his hands. But what has disappointed me most is his lack of aggression. Driving through traffic, enforcing his will, being physical against his opponents, drawing fouls. He's got a great frame, but he doesn't have a physical mindset. It frustrates me to no end. He's still a good player, not flawless, but not terrible either. Like I keep saying, building a team means balancing strengths and weaknesses. Who thinks we've done that? In the end, he's a Henny guy though and WeHam must reshape this roster in their vision of what they think is a winner.

Isaac's injuries are concerning, but is it reason to give up all hope like you have? Ummm, no. Period. End of story. ACL surgeries have been mastered. Even the speed of return is getting faster and faster. You tried to spread rumors of his injury history dating back to high school, but got caught trying to make up your own storylines again. The fact that we will have to wait for his recovery sucks really bad, but that does not equate to the end of his career.

You on board with Fultz yet? Or does he have to have zero flaws like Michael Jordan?

Gordon is painfully average starter.

Isaac has: ACL tear, MCL tear, LCL injury ( basically Posterolateral Corner Injury) over a span of 8 months, with 6 monts of not playing in between and prior all that, same leg, high ankle sprain that took him forever to recover. Also both ACL and MCL tears ( happend in some moment ) were non-contact injury. So it's not like he got pushed and his body couldn't handle it, it was him landing awkwardly on his own.
Every single jump he makes is on left leg, every single injury he sustains is - on left leg.

Fultz is guard who can't shoot 3s. That's enough data for somebody who understand modern basketball.

Players can have flaws, even Jordan had flaws. But those guys are just average nba players with huge limitations. Not flaws. Limitations. Especially Gordon who for 6 years proves he is nothing but average starter on below average team.

Gordon is one of Henny's guys. I've been preaching that they need to go. He's been here long enough that we know what he is and his upside "with this team" has hit a max. Maybe on the Warriors, he takes it up a notch. I"m just not gonna sit here and blame him for the Magic's woes. That draft didn't produce stars in the Top 10 and we didn't do him any favors in developing him.

Isaac will be back from injury just like the countless others. What a drama queen.

Fultz is still an improving player. He made you eat crow this year, so I get your frustration with him stands from an even worse bias now than it was before. He shot over 40% from 3 at Washington, so it could just be a matter of time before he regains his range. There's no reason to doubt that after the season he's coming off of. When the bright lights came on in the playoffs, he shot 35.5% from 3. Wide open, sure... but he's a guy who can create space for his shots, so you can feel good about the idea that if he extends his range, he'll still be able to create his own separation.

...and please tell Pat Riley that his idea of modern basketball sucks because Jimmy Butler can't shoot 3s.

Lot of repetitive, fale arguments that you can't support, lot of wishful thinking and not much valid arguments.
All lineups point toward fact that Fultz made players around him worst.
Every person with little bit of brain will know that 6'11 player being banged up for 2 out of 4 years is huge red flag.

And Heat - Butler piss poor try to make me look stupid or whatever, will now backfire ( as usual ) on your

Miami Heat during regular season played NINE players who shot above league averge for 3.
Orlando Magic... One.

Go figure

Heat current playoff roster is 9 men deep, 6 of them are above average shooters, everbody but Butler, Adebayo and Igoudala are plus shooters, and Butler and Igoudala are at least treats. Where Butler was miserable for 3 this season, his career 3% is still higher than half of Magic players. Guy is 33,33% career shooter. That's below average but nowhere near as pathetic as 26%.

[Skin]

Gordon is painfully average starter.

Isaac has: ACL tear, MCL tear, LCL injury ( basically Posterolateral Corner Injury) over a span of 8 months, with 6 monts of not playing in between and prior all that, same leg, high ankle sprain that took him forever to recover. Also both ACL and MCL tears ( happend in some moment ) were non-contact injury. So it's not like he got pushed and his body couldn't handle it, it was him landing awkwardly on his own.
Every single jump he makes is on left leg, every single injury he sustains is - on left leg.

Fultz is guard who can't shoot 3s. That's enough data for somebody who understand modern basketball.

Players can have flaws, even Jordan had flaws. But those guys are just average nba players with huge limitations. Not flaws. Limitations. Especially Gordon who for 6 years proves he is nothing but average starter on below average team.

Gordon is one of Henny's guys. I've been preaching that they need to go. He's been here long enough that we know what he is and his upside "with this team" has hit a max. Maybe on the Warriors, he takes it up a notch. I"m just not gonna sit here and blame him for the Magic's woes. That draft didn't produce stars in the Top 10 and we didn't do him any favors in developing him.

Isaac will be back from injury just like the countless others. What a drama queen.

Fultz is still an improving player. He made you eat crow this year, so I get your frustration with him stands from an even worse bias now than it was before. He shot over 40% from 3 at Washington, so it could just be a matter of time before he regains his range. There's no reason to doubt that after the season he's coming off of. When the bright lights came on in the playoffs, he shot 35.5% from 3. Wide open, sure... but he's a guy who can create space for his shots, so you can feel good about the idea that if he extends his range, he'll still be able to create his own separation.

...and please tell Pat Riley that his idea of modern basketball sucks because Jimmy Butler can't shoot 3s.

Lot of repetitive, fale arguments that you can't support, lot of wishful thinking and not much valid arguments.
All lineups point toward fact that Fultz made players around him worst.
Every person with little bit of brain will know that 6'11 player being banged up for 2 out of 4 years is huge red flag.

And Heat - Butler piss poor try to make me look stupid or whatever, will now backfire ( as usual ) on your

Miami Heat during regular season played NINE players who shot above league averge for 3.
Orlando Magic... One.

Go figure

Heat current playoff roster is 9 men deep, 6 of them are above average shooters, everbody but Butler, Adebayo and Igoudala are plus shooters, and Butler and Igoudala are at least treats. Where Butler was miserable for 3 this season, his career 3% is still higher than half of Magic players. Guy is 33,33% career shooter. That's below average but nowhere near as pathetic as 26%.

Do you need support for common knowledge? ACL injuries don't derail careers at a high rate anymore. So many healthy returns. It's not wishful thinking to expect him to be back. We still have many other positions to fill before we need to be worried about replacing him. Red flag, sure. White flag? No.

Absolutely damn right about Miami. They surrounded Butler with shooters. They formed the right mix of players with complimenting strengths and weaknesses. Bottom line is they're making it work and showing you that it's possible to have a star player with 3pt shooting as a weakness. Proves your whole crying about Fultz wrong again. The Magic just have to correctly build around him. I don't know why that keeps going over your head.

[MartinsIzAfraud]

Gordon is one of Henny's guys. I've been preaching that they need to go. He's been here long enough that we know what he is and his upside "with this team" has hit a max. Maybe on the Warriors, he takes it up a notch. I"m just not gonna sit here and blame him for the Magic's woes. That draft didn't produce stars in the Top 10 and we didn't do him any favors in developing him.

Isaac will be back from injury just like the countless others. What a drama queen.

Fultz is still an improving player. He made you eat crow this year, so I get your frustration with him stands from an even worse bias now than it was before. He shot over 40% from 3 at Washington, so it could just be a matter of time before he regains his range. There's no reason to doubt that after the season he's coming off of. When the bright lights came on in the playoffs, he shot 35.5% from 3. Wide open, sure... but he's a guy who can create space for his shots, so you can feel good about the idea that if he extends his range, he'll still be able to create his own separation.

...and please tell Pat Riley that his idea of modern basketball sucks because Jimmy Butler can't shoot 3s.

Lot of repetitive, fale arguments that you can't support, lot of wishful thinking and not much valid arguments.
All lineups point toward fact that Fultz made players around him worst.
Every person with little bit of brain will know that 6'11 player being banged up for 2 out of 4 years is huge red flag.

And Heat - Butler piss poor try to make me look stupid or whatever, will now backfire ( as usual ) on your

Miami Heat during regular season played NINE players who shot above league averge for 3.
Orlando Magic... One.

Go figure

Heat current playoff roster is 9 men deep, 6 of them are above average shooters, everbody but Butler, Adebayo and Igoudala are plus shooters, and Butler and Igoudala are at least treats. Where Butler was miserable for 3 this season, his career 3% is still higher than half of Magic players. Guy is 33,33% career shooter. That's below average but nowhere near as pathetic as 26%.

Do you need support for common knowledge? ACL injuries don't derail careers at a high rate anymore. So many healthy returns. It's not wishful thinking to expect him to be back. We still have many other positions to fill before we need to be worried about replacing him. Red flag, sure. White flag? No.

Absolutely damn right about Miami. They surrounded Butler with shooters. They formed the right mix of players with complimenting strengths and weaknesses. Bottom line is they're making it work and showing you that it's possible to have a star player with 3pt shooting as a weakness. Proves your whole crying about Fultz wrong again. The Magic just have to correctly build around him. I don't know why that keeps going over your head.

Sadly I don’t see this FO being able to build a roster around Fultz due to many different reasons. We’re going to be a hodgepodge of misfit pieces for at least 2-3 more years.

[Skin]

Lot of repetitive, fale arguments that you can't support, lot of wishful thinking and not much valid arguments.
All lineups point toward fact that Fultz made players around him worst.
Every person with little bit of brain will know that 6'11 player being banged up for 2 out of 4 years is huge red flag.

And Heat - Butler piss poor try to make me look stupid or whatever, will now backfire ( as usual ) on your

Miami Heat during regular season played NINE players who shot above league averge for 3.
Orlando Magic... One.

Go figure

Heat current playoff roster is 9 men deep, 6 of them are above average shooters, everbody but Butler, Adebayo and Igoudala are plus shooters, and Butler and Igoudala are at least treats. Where Butler was miserable for 3 this season, his career 3% is still higher than half of Magic players. Guy is 33,33% career shooter. That's below average but nowhere near as pathetic as 26%.

Do you need support for common knowledge? ACL injuries don't derail careers at a high rate anymore. So many healthy returns. It's not wishful thinking to expect him to be back. We still have many other positions to fill before we need to be worried about replacing him. Red flag, sure. White flag? No.

Absolutely damn right about Miami. They surrounded Butler with shooters. They formed the right mix of players with complimenting strengths and weaknesses. Bottom line is they're making it work and showing you that it's possible to have a star player with 3pt shooting as a weakness. Proves your whole crying about Fultz wrong again. The Magic just have to correctly build around him. I don't know why that keeps going over your head.

Sadly I don’t see this FO being able to build a roster around Fultz due to many different reasons. We’re going to be a hodgepodge of misfit pieces for at least 2-3 more years.

Yeah and this forum is the place to get our frustrations out about it. Hodgepodge for sure until we dump Henny's guys.That's where my frustration stands....

Because Isaac, Bamba and Okeke are theoretically the right type of players to build around Fultz. If we can only move on and build around THAT core, then I'd be happy to wait for the results without needing to win now. I don't fear the future we have with our current youngsters. I may get there one day but that day isn't here yet.

[dckingsfan]

Because Isaac, Bamba and Okeke are theoretically the right type of players to build around Fultz. If we can only move on and build around THAT core, then I'd be happy to wait for the results without needing to win now. I don't fear the future we have with our current youngsters. I may get there one day but that day isn't here yet.

To that end - would a Rui Hachimura for Bamba trade make any sense?

[J the Drafter]

Yeah and this forum is the place to get our frustrations out about it. Hodgepodge for sure until we dump Henny's guys.That's where my frustration stands....

Because Isaac, Bamba and Okeke are theoretically the right type of players to build around Fultz. If we can only move on and build around THAT core, then I'd be happy to wait for the results without needing to win now. I don't fear the future we have with our current youngsters. I may get there one day but that day isn't here yet.

Skin. I can see the appeal of dumping Hennigan’s players, but it simply isn’t practical. No sane front office is going to get rid of contributing players just because they were drafted by their predecessors. If nothing else, Vuc and Fournier are players we can dangle in front of desperate contenders or pretenders for assets.

[TheGlyde]

Yeah and this forum is the place to get our frustrations out about it. Hodgepodge for sure until we dump Henny's guys.That's where my frustration stands....

Because Isaac, Bamba and Okeke are theoretically the right type of players to build around Fultz. If we can only move on and build around THAT core, then I'd be happy to wait for the results without needing to win now. I don't fear the future we have with our current youngsters. I may get there one day but that day isn't here yet.

Here is what I think the Magic FO is hoping will happen, and that is the 'young core' of Isaac, Bamba, Fultz and Okeke will develop into the same players in 2-3 years regardless of what actual game minutes they get right now, and they are sold on the idea of developing behind vets and 'playing meangingful games' at the end of the season to assist in that.

So you could have a situation where you dump Vuc/Evan/AG/Ross and blood the 'young core', and the Magic blow hard for 2-3 years and then the 'young core' either blossom or they stink and we move on

Or

You keep Vuc/Evan/AG/Ross, the Magic are fringe playoff team for 2-3 years, and then the 'young core' either blossom or they stink and we move on.

Ie in 2-3 years we depend on those guys and are in the same spot regardless, so why suck in the meantime.

Again, I am not suggesting this is the correct approach, but I imagine it's what the FO are thinking when they look at possible paths forward.

[Skin]

Yeah and this forum is the place to get our frustrations out about it. Hodgepodge for sure until we dump Henny's guys.That's where my frustration stands....

Because Isaac, Bamba and Okeke are theoretically the right type of players to build around Fultz. If we can only move on and build around THAT core, then I'd be happy to wait for the results without needing to win now. I don't fear the future we have with our current youngsters. I may get there one day but that day isn't here yet.

Skin. I can see the appeal of dumping Hennigan’s players, but it simply isn’t practical. No sane front office is going to get rid of contributing players just because they were drafted by their predecessors. If nothing else, Vuc and Fournier are players we can dangle in front of desperate contenders or pretenders for assets.

Yeah, I fully expect the Magic to stay put. But I can't really agree that it's not practical. Henny came in and found the best thing he could for Dwight. Yeah, he wanted out, but new GMs come in and put their stamp on the team in all sports. I'm not asking them to completely dump their players... or even all players...but a few key ones should. I mean, I'm perfectly fine with that... but shouldn't a good front office be able to recoup value? Let's get something for something.

Honestly there's nothing insane about making bold moves to get better. Only insanity is keeping something together that isn't working and trying it over and over again. Remember when Pat Riley traded his #2 pick from the year before, Michael Beasley for cap space? Insane. I demand greatness from our GM.

[EasternMagic]

Yeah and this forum is the place to get our frustrations out about it. Hodgepodge for sure until we dump Henny's guys.That's where my frustration stands....

Because Isaac, Bamba and Okeke are theoretically the right type of players to build around Fultz. If we can only move on and build around THAT core, then I'd be happy to wait for the results without needing to win now. I don't fear the future we have with our current youngsters. I may get there one day but that day isn't here yet.

Here is what I think the Magic FO is hoping will happen, and that is the 'young core' of Isaac, Bamba, Fultz and Okeke will develop into the same players in 2-3 years regardless of what actual game minutes they get right now, and they are sold on the idea of developing behind vets and 'playing meangingful games' at the end of the season to assist in that.

So you could have a situation where you dump Vuc/Evan/AG/Ross and blood the 'young core', and the Magic blow hard for 2-3 years and then the 'young core' either blossom or they stink and we move on

Or

You keep Vuc/Evan/AG/Ross, the Magic are fringe playoff team for 2-3 years, and then the 'young core' either blossom or they stink and we move on.

Ie in 2-3 years we depend on those guys and are in the same spot regardless, so why suck in the meantime.

Again, I am not suggesting this is the correct approach, but I imagine it's what the FO are thinking when they look at possible paths forward.

The truly unfortunate state about this current situation is that our young core is such a mystery. There is no doubting the boatload of potential that exists there. But as of now, it's nearly just that: potential.

JI's ballhandling, shooting, and confidence improvements along with his elite defensive attributes make him a prospective cornerstone piece for a franchise, but he can't catch a break with injuries.
Markelle made HUGE strides this season, but still, his play painted him as more of an average starter or solid backup. That's not to say he won't continue to improve, I think he will, but that's the reality of where we are now.
Chuma was projected to be a lottery pick before he tore his ACL. There some Michael Porter Jr. potential there, but it's still just unknown.
Bamba was considered a top 5 draft talent who had the physical attributes and shooting mechanics to be a starting center in today's NBA, but much like Isaac, he's been unable to stay healthy.


These are all guys who could be game-changers for a franchise but seem to have an equal chance, at this point of being in the bust-average range. The franchise is in a fog right now; stuck between the known of the old guard and the unknown of its youth. There is reason for optimism, but it's hard to make it out clearly. Despair seems like it's right in front of our faces, and that's hard to shake as a fan of a team who's been stuck in no-man's-land for so long.

[zaymon]

Yeah and this forum is the place to get our frustrations out about it. Hodgepodge for sure until we dump Henny's guys.That's where my frustration stands....

Because Isaac, Bamba and Okeke are theoretically the right type of players to build around Fultz. If we can only move on and build around THAT core, then I'd be happy to wait for the results without needing to win now. I don't fear the future we have with our current youngsters. I may get there one day but that day isn't here yet.

Here is what I think the Magic FO is hoping will happen, and that is the 'young core' of Isaac, Bamba, Fultz and Okeke will develop into the same players in 2-3 years regardless of what actual game minutes they get right now, and they are sold on the idea of developing behind vets and 'playing meangingful games' at the end of the season to assist in that.

So you could have a situation where you dump Vuc/Evan/AG/Ross and blood the 'young core', and the Magic blow hard for 2-3 years and then the 'young core' either blossom or they stink and we move on

Or

You keep Vuc/Evan/AG/Ross, the Magic are fringe playoff team for 2-3 years, and then the 'young core' either blossom or they stink and we move on.

Ie in 2-3 years we depend on those guys and are in the same spot regardless, so why suck in the meantime.

Again, I am not suggesting this is the correct approach, but I imagine it's what the FO are thinking when they look at possible paths forward.

The truly unfortunate state about this current situation is that our young core is such a mystery. There is no doubting the boatload of potential that exists there. But as of now, it's nearly just that: potential.

JI's ballhandling, shooting, and confidence improvements along with his elite defensive attributes make him a prospective cornerstone piece for a franchise, but he can't catch a break with injuries.
Markelle made HUGE strides this season, but still, his play painted him as more of an average starter or solid backup. That's not to say he won't continue to improve, I think he will, but that's the reality of where we are now.
Chuma was projected to be a lottery pick before he tore his ACL. There some Michael Porter Jr. potential there, but it's still just unknown.
Bamba was considered a top 5 draft talent who had the physical attributes and shooting mechanics to be a starting center in today's NBA, but much like Isaac, he's been unable to stay healthy.


These are all guys who could be game-changers for a franchise but seem to have an equal chance, at this point of being in the bust-average range. The franchise is in a fog right now; stuck between the known of the old guard and the unknown of its youth. There is reason for optimism, but it's hard to make it out clearly. Despair seems like it's right in front of our faces, and that's hard to shake as a fan of a team who's been stuck in no-man's-land for so long.

You can always look glass half full or glass half empty:

1. Glass half empty- our young core will never be good enough to compete, and our veterans will only take us into first round of playoffs. By playing veterans we are hurting young players development, and we are losing on lottery picks. Young players will revolt against having smaller roles.

2.Glass half full- we are making the playoffs despite having many raw young players in rotation, players we knew they were multi year projects. We are teaching them the winning habits in roles they can succed in. We are good enough to sign veterans on team friendly deals. We are drafting in the middle of first round where talent is still high but contracts much lower. Our players have higher value around the league and we can move them when opportunity comes.

[pepe1991]

Do you need support for common knowledge? ACL injuries don't derail careers at a high rate anymore. So many healthy returns. It's not wishful thinking to expect him to be back. We still have many other positions to fill before we need to be worried about replacing him. Red flag, sure. White flag? No.

Absolutely damn right about Miami. They surrounded Butler with shooters. They formed the right mix of players with complimenting strengths and weaknesses. Bottom line is they're making it work and showing you that it's possible to have a star player with 3pt shooting as a weakness. Proves your whole crying about Fultz wrong again. The Magic just have to correctly build around him. I don't know why that keeps going over your head.

Sadly I don’t see this FO being able to build a roster around Fultz due to many different reasons. We’re going to be a hodgepodge of misfit pieces for at least 2-3 more years.

Yeah and this forum is the place to get our frustrations out about it. Hodgepodge for sure until we dump Henny's guys.That's where my frustration stands....

Because Isaac, Bamba and Okeke are theoretically the right type of players to build around Fultz. If we can only move on and build around THAT core, then I'd be happy to wait for the results without needing to win now. I don't fear the future we have with our current youngsters. I may get there one day but that day isn't here yet.

What a hell Fultz proved to be worth building team around ?

22 years old, 12 points a game, 5 assists, 26,7% for 3, 51,7% TS. 21% usage rate.
Did he elevate his game in playoffs?
12 ppg , 5 apg, 47% TS

Noup.

Are his advanced stats showing he is blowing up, just being held hostage by poor coach or some underachiving vets? Actually, all advanced stats point in other direction.

By RAPTOR data he is 56th among 68 PGs who played at least 500 min. Ranked between Austin Rivers and Frank Ntilikina.
RAPTOR data also reveals that he is negative defender AND offensive player.
When i runned defended field goal percentage, it just proved same thing. His defended FG% is worst than Evan and his, who you, among many others call trash defender. Whitch means Fultz is even bigger trash. Right? They are both among 15 worst, among guards with at least 30 games played.

When I runned box score RAPTOR, in hope he will stack little better against competition there, he, once again, failed miserably. Being ranked 56th among 65 PGs. Once again Rivers and Frank N. teritory.


It's not core if it's not good enough. It's just bunch of young players. Understanding difference is key between trying to build team around Payton, Oladipo and Gordon ( ending up nowhere ) and Houston having balls to trade 12# pick ( Lamb), Kevin Martin, two future first round picks and second round pick for player who started 7 games for OKC (Harden).

Once again, you have to be 100% sure that player you are building team around is star player. Fultz , nor any other current Magic player simply is not.

[cedric76]

FYI, Evan is having hair implants today so he ll have a huge year next season, our future is bright

[Tarheel]

FYI, Evan is having hair implants today so he ll have a huge year next season, our future is bright

Confidence + 10