Official Speculation Thread '20-'21 VI: "I like this team"

[pepe1991]

How did team that will probably miss playoffs ended up in luxury tax therithory?

There was no objective nor logical reason why Isaac and Fultz were resigned this year.

What, somebody is going to max out your sub 30% three point shooting point guard?

Isaac will ride wheelchairs around arena so fast that some GM will throw him max contract during season where he will log 0 games?

[MagicFan101]

Teams were loading up for the 2021 free agency. A few teams were waiting on Giannis who is off the table. Other names are still out there but many teams will have to turn to Plan B or C.

This will be another summer of over spending. Have we already forgotten the summer of Biz and Moz getting their deals simply because teams had extra cash?

Do we really want to wait and have to learn what it would cast us to match Isaac or Fultz?

[pepe1991]

Remembering day we resigned Vuc after allstar year. Place was burning.
OVerpayed, imagine paying Vuc $28M in first year ? Terrible

2 yeras later "well, $20M for 12ppg player isn't much..:"

Evan 18 ppg - $17M , horrific value, terrible contract

now try with $12ppg - $16M contract. Perfect.

[zuppafly]

I don't like the numbers on these extensions. A lot of money for unproven players with a terrible injury history.

I love the kids, I'm rooting for them, but from a business perspective this is purgatory for another 4 years. Isaac will have played 136 games after 4 seasons due to constant and serious injuries.
Fultz has yet to launch a contested three with a release point high enough that doesn't get him blocked.

They might turn out as reliable both on health and shooting wise, but that's like a 10% chance.

I wonder against whom would we be betting against by the end of next season, particularly in Isaac's situation. The league will not get richer this year, with little to no public in the stands, the cap will not go up, Isaac will not play.
Was he worth 20M/year just not to take the chance to outbid someone next summer? If someone offered 20M to Isaac next summer, would the Magic consider raising to 21M a reasonable amount for someone that just missed 1.5 seasons with knee injuries?

Fultz deal seems a bit more understandable with that 3rd year option. That also speaks volumes about the FO not being convinced he can get his shot back.

Overall, not excited with the extensions. Middle of the pack if injuries don't get in the way is where we will be, and luxury tax bound too.

btw, bye Evan, no way he gets back with these numbers on the table now.

[pepe1991]

I thought Mavericks signed Porzingis as FA, nop, traded for him. That officially means i can't name drop single player that had devastating injury and somebody was throwing money at him in free agency.

No, Durant doesn't count. Durant is one of top 25 players of all time.

[SOUL]

Remembering day we resigned Vuc after allstar year. Place was burning.
OVerpayed, imagine paying Vuc $28M in first year ? Terrible

2 yeras later "well, $20M for 12ppg player isn't much..:"

Evan 18 ppg - $17M , horrific value, terrible contract

now try with $12ppg - $16M contract. Perfect.

Bad logic. Vuc had one proven year (of all star play) and we weren't sure if he would improve on that. He played well enough last year that people (including me) are fine with his contract now.

Fournier we are explicitly paying for his scoring and shooting. Isaac can average 12 ppg for the rest of his career and if he adds all the little stuff he usually does but with more efficient, is 5x the value of a player like Fournier who is a one trick pony.

Fultz we are banking on to improve his points and shot attempts this year, which for what he got paid, I can see him averaging 15/16 ppg this year. Regardless its a 2 year deal where we will see if he can become the player that made him the #1 pick or if he will max out as a solid/low end starter.

[basketballRob]

I thought Mavericks signed Porzingis as FA, nop, traded for him. That officially means i can't name drop single player that had devastating injury and somebody was throwing money at him in free agency.

No, Durant doesn't count. Durant is one of top 25 players of all time.

Grant Hill.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM mobile app

[pepe1991]

Remembering day we resigned Vuc after allstar year. Place was burning.
OVerpayed, imagine paying Vuc $28M in first year ? Terrible

2 yeras later "well, $20M for 12ppg player isn't much..:"

Evan 18 ppg - $17M , horrific value, terrible contract

now try with $12ppg - $16M contract. Perfect.

Bad logic. Vuc had one proven year and we weren't sure if he would improve on that. He played well enough last year that people (including me) are fine with his contract now.

Fournier we are explicitly paying for his scoring and shooting. Isaac can average 12 ppg for the rest of his career and if he adds all the little stuff he usually does but with more efficient, is 5x the value of a player like Fournier who is a one trick pony.

Fultz we are banking on to improve his points and shot attempts this year, which for what he got paid, I can see him averaging 15/16 ppg this year. Regardless its a 2 year deal where we will see if he can become the player that made him the #1 pick or if he will max out as a solid/low end starter.

Nah, just double standards.

It's somehow ok to pay below average PG $16,6m BUT average starter at $17M is being portrayed as overpayed for yeras on same forum. Not double standards?
Paying for potential? Guy played in preseson with same crappy shooting form, 0 improvments. Took funcional person 2 min to see no progress in his game whatsoever. He only took more shots, shot what? 41% FG overall, 30% for 3? Scheduled for >51% TS season i guess.

Talking about Isaac and allegedly, x5 more value than Evan, is also laughable. Guy flat out does not play basketball at average 50% of time. If he can't play, his value is zero.

Him getting fat exsension in Magic bidding against nobody is best example where team as franchise is. They are so terrified that it might upset his agent if they don't resign him right away, that they will burn, blindfolded $80M on player that is scheaduled to average 0,00 ppg on 0,00 mpg for rest of a season that did not even started yet

[MagicFan101]

Remembering day we resigned Vuc after allstar year. Place was burning.
OVerpayed, imagine paying Vuc $28M in first year ? Terrible

2 yeras later "well, $20M for 12ppg player isn't much..:"

Evan 18 ppg - $17M , horrific value, terrible contract

now try with $12ppg - $16M contract. Perfect.

Bad logic. Vuc had one proven year and we weren't sure if he would improve on that. He played well enough last year that people (including me) are fine with his contract now.

Fournier we are explicitly paying for his scoring and shooting. Isaac can average 12 ppg for the rest of his career and if he adds all the little stuff he usually does but with more efficient, is 5x the value of a player like Fournier who is a one trick pony.

Fultz we are banking on to improve his points and shot attempts this year, which for what he got paid, I can see him averaging 15/16 ppg this year. Regardless its a 2 year deal where we will see if he can become the player that made him the #1 pick or if he will max out as a solid/low end starter.

Talking about Isaac and allegedly, x5 more value than Evan, is also laughable. Guy flat out does not play basketball at average 50% of time. If he can't play, his value is zero.

When Isaac does play, he makes his team better. The same cannot be said for Evan.

You can talk about risk over injuries but that is simply trying to predict the future. As for their contribution to the team, Isaac is a positive and Evan is a negative and all value comps end there.

[SOUL]

Evan has a lot of value as a spot up shooter and not much else right now. Before last season, he hovered at 34-37 three point percent for 3 years. He's also choked as someone we were dependent upon to score the last two playoffs. Vuc at least showed it was more of a Gasol problem than anything else.

Any other decent scorer in his talent range taking the amount of shots he took probably does even better in those 3 years. Fournier is not a special player at all. So if we're gonna dink Isaac for "12 ppg" (on 9.8 shots a game) compared to a guy that took 13 shots to average 15 ppg two years ago as something to point at as a negative, then we can factor in Evan's defense, defensive rebounding, blocks, playoff play as negatives for his contract.

[pepe1991]

Bad logic. Vuc had one proven year and we weren't sure if he would improve on that. He played well enough last year that people (including me) are fine with his contract now.

Fournier we are explicitly paying for his scoring and shooting. Isaac can average 12 ppg for the rest of his career and if he adds all the little stuff he usually does but with more efficient, is 5x the value of a player like Fournier who is a one trick pony.

Fultz we are banking on to improve his points and shot attempts this year, which for what he got paid, I can see him averaging 15/16 ppg this year. Regardless its a 2 year deal where we will see if he can become the player that made him the #1 pick or if he will max out as a solid/low end starter.

Talking about Isaac and allegedly, x5 more value than Evan, is also laughable. Guy flat out does not play basketball at average 50% of time. If he can't play, his value is zero.

When Isaac does play, he makes his team better. The same cannot be said for Evan.

You can talk about risk over injuries but that is simply trying to predict the future. As for their contribution to the team, Isaac is a positive and Evan is a negative and all value comps end there.

Factually false but whatever helps you sleep at night.

I'm not predicting the future, i'm talking about present. NBA season is yet to start ,and Isaac won't be playing until it's over.
What's there to add to this epic contract nogotations?

I know you didn't notice, but see, goal of basketball is put a ball through hoop, and there is something called "three point line" and where teams operate their offense around, and see, this Evan Fournier guy is only Orlando Magic player capable of throwing that ball into that hoop at league's average percentage. That alone makes him very valuable player for organisation and every other team he will be part of later.

But i'll give you time to grasp all this new informations.

[Bensational]

The extensions don't matter. Everyone is now trade fodder for pieces to build around Cole with.

[pepe1991]

Evan has a lot of value as a spot up shooter and not much else right now. Before last season, he hovered at 34-37 three point percent for 3 years. He's also choked as someone we were dependent upon to score the last two playoffs. Vuc at least showed it was more of a Gasol problem than anything else.

Any other decent scorer in his talent range taking the amount of shots he took probably does even better in those 3 years. Fournier is not a special player at all. So if we're gonna dink Isaac for "12 ppg" (on 9.8 shots a game) compared to a guy that took 13 shots to average 15 ppg two years ago as something to point at as a negative, then we can factor in Evan's defense, defensive rebounding, blocks, playoff play as negatives for his contract.

Nobody calls Evan special. But Evan is capable scorer.

Isaac flat out is not. And that's fine. He knows he is not. He never tried to force himself as scorer. Guy played as second option at college to Dwayne Bacon lol
Countless amount of times i broke down whole Isaac's data in peaces. I'm too tired to use logic in illogical conversations when people still see facts and elect to be illogical.

Isaac took 332 shots last year. 291 shot was with 2 or less dribbles, among them 192 were with 0 dribbles.

He is not guy who will just "get his".


You can keep beating this " negative for contract " as much as you want, that doesn't change fact you are still wrong with every post you make aobut it.

RAPTOR data is this shiny new " be all" data,right, very good stuff? Well according to RAPTOR data Evan's value is higher than Brandon Igram's. And where this is probably bit of a reach for regular fan to grasp, that doesn't change fact he comes off as better value than Derozan, similar to McCulum, better than Lavine, Kennard , KCP, Joe Harris.

Problem is that fans flat out don't like him. And him showing what type of crap fans send him on twitter just proves it.
Is that some sort of fatigue with him being for so many years or blaming him for "fail" of their overrated young failed "stars" fans hyped themselfs into like Hezonja and Payton and now Fultz, it's hard to tell, however it's very illogical, and irrational feeling.

I don't care who anybody likes. Numbers like best players. Evan isn't best player by any streach of imagination, but for purpose and day in age basketball is today, he is very useful player. Especially for team like Orlando that can't draft or sign shooters to save their lifes.

And if Evan is negative value for contract, what does that make Fultz? You have guy who is at very best backup PG, playing starter, sucking every single major category as PG and is now payed $16,7M?

[MoMM]

Well, do not forget that after JI comes back, maybe he won't be the same player, maybe he will not jump so high or move so fast. There are a lot of ifs and on top of that, even if he comes back playing well (or even better as some say), he can have an injury at any time. He is too fragile and I don't know how it can be improved as usually things only get worse in terms of new injuries.

I am OK with Fultz' deal because we won't have cap in the next 2 years anyway and we can trade him or not pick up his option (2M guaranteed in the 3rd year) at same time that Ross and Vucevic's deal will be finished, but Isaac's deal is hard to swallow.

[DiplomaticMagic]

Both deals were the right moves. Very pleased with them.

[zaymon]

I almost certain somebody would give Isaac max next year. Giannis, Paul George resigned, most restricted resigned. Cap will propably explode after vaccinations are over. Many teams like Heat, Raptors, Maverics, Knicks preserved their finances for next year. Bulls, Hornets, Okc, Cavaliers, Spurs, Grizzlies could also offer max. Whats the risk for those teams outside Grizzlies?
You dont get the chance to sign potential dpoy every year. I was so worried we wont get that deal done. There was no upside for us waiting. Isaac has clear mind during rehabilitation and we locked our potential cornerstone.

[Skybox]

Glad they’re locked up but not the team-friendly bargains I’d hoped for, given all the questions. Hoping for the best...the Isaac investment may be the trigger to move AG now that it’s signed.

[tiderulz]

I almost certain somebody would give Isaac max next year. Giannis, Paul George resigned, most restricted resigned. Cap will propably explode after vaccinations are over. Many teams like Heat, Raptors, Maverics, Knicks preserved their finances for next year. Bulls, Hornets, Okc, Cavaliers, Spurs, Grizzlies could also offer max. Whats the risk for those teams outside Grizzlies?
You dont get the chance to sign potential dpoy every year. I was so worried we wont get that deal done. There was no upside for us waiting. Isaac has clear mind during rehabilitation and we locked our potential cornerstone.

i cant agree. his injury history, lack of consistent offensive game, no way someone was going to offer him a max.

[zaymon]

I almost certain somebody would give Isaac max next year. Giannis, Paul George resigned, most restricted resigned. Cap will propably explode after vaccinations are over. Many teams like Heat, Raptors, Maverics, Knicks preserved their finances for next year. Bulls, Hornets, Okc, Cavaliers, Spurs, Grizzlies could also offer max. Whats the risk for those teams outside Grizzlies?
You dont get the chance to sign potential dpoy every year. I was so worried we wont get that deal done. There was no upside for us waiting. Isaac has clear mind during rehabilitation and we locked our potential cornerstone.

i cant agree. his injury history, lack of consistent offensive game, no way someone was going to offer him a max.

You dont need 5 guys to create your offense. You just need them to space the floor which Isaac can do. He is easly one of the 5 most dominant help defenders in the league. Guy you can build your defense around. More versatile than Gobert on defense but with a 3 point shot. Hmmm lets see if its worth 20M a year.... For me he was a lock to get a max contract next year. Its a moderate risk, high reward move. One you make when you dont want to be a treadmill team. Injuries happen, you can be 100 % healthy and then get injured or return from injury like Isaac and stay healthy for the rest of carrier.

[pepe1991]

I almost certain somebody would give Isaac max next year. Giannis, Paul George resigned, most restricted resigned. Cap will propably explode after vaccinations are over. Many teams like Heat, Raptors, Maverics, Knicks preserved their finances for next year. Bulls, Hornets, Okc, Cavaliers, Spurs, Grizzlies could also offer max. Whats the risk for those teams outside Grizzlies?
You dont get the chance to sign potential dpoy every year. I was so worried we wont get that deal done. There was no upside for us waiting. Isaac has clear mind during rehabilitation and we locked our potential cornerstone.

i cant agree. his injury history, lack of consistent offensive game, no way someone was going to offer him a max.

You dont need 5 guys to create your offense. You just need them to space the floor which Isaac can do. He is easly one of the 5 most dominant help defenders in the league. Guy you can build your defense around. More versatile than Gobert on defense but with a 3 point shot. Hmmm lets see if its worth 20M a year.... For me he was a lock to get a max contract next year. Its a moderate risk, high reward move. One you make when you dont want to be a treadmill team. Injuries happen, you can be 100 % healthy and then get injured or return from injury like Isaac and stay healthy for the rest of carrier.

For start, he is NOT as good defender as Gobert is. This is where Isaac narrative always gets blown away out of proportion. Because people compare him with Gobert and their defensive impact comparison would bi similar to comparing Lebron's offene to Paul George.
Not that George is not great offensive player, but he does not belong in same world as Lebron.

Gobert is one man defense. Utah menages to put guys like Joe Ingles,Jordan Clarkson and Bojan Bogdanovic on the floor and still be good defensive team mainly because of Gobert.
Because of Gobert's one man - inside 15 foot defense, Utah can send 4 guys on perimeter and that's why they are best 3 point defending team almost evey year.

Matter of fact Goberts worst season in his life, rookie one, on defense, was ranking him as 55th best defender from period of 2010-2020. Let's repeat this again. Gobert's worst defensive year made him 55th best defender among cca 4500 players/seasons.
Gobert isn't just great defender, he is one of best defenders in history.

In last 2 years alone, isolated in mismatches against guards, Gobert saved 765 points.

What's most important aspect of his game, that most fans flat out don't understand, is his blocks. Do you know why he does not have many blocks? Because players avoid layups near him.

Isaac is non of that. Isaac is weak side shot blocker and great help defender.
But you are NOT running defense around Isaac like you would around Gobert. You flat out don't leave him in paint alone as anchor.
Isaac is waaay more similar on defense to Giannis, KG and Ibaka than he will ever be to Davis and Gobert, who both are center peace of defense.


Few more things. isaac is career 33% three point shooter for career. So below average one.
And all the " better offensive value" is also fabricated lie when it comes to overblowing Isaac wagon.
Isaac never averaged more than 11,9 points a game on 10 shots a game.

Gobert already averaged 15 and 16 points a game on 8,8 FGA. So 4 and 5 more points on less shots.
Gobert is huge body, he is 7'1- around 240-250 pounds athletic center that grabbs 4 ORPG and draws around 5 to 6 fouls a game.
On top of that he is leagues's leading screener and huge lob target that dunks everything around rim. needless to say on uber elite efficiency.

isaac's whole offensive game is catch and shoot wide open 3s ad league's averge.

Gobert, his body, his durability and what he offers to a team are simply waaaaay, waaay more valuable for a team than Isaac is. He is much better, more complete and better equipped player for this day and age than Isaac will ever be.

That stupid comparison has to stop. It's pretty much comparison of future hall of famer with player that is dumbed down to "if Kevin Garnett never learned how to play offense".