Markelle Fultz

[VFX]

Yes…let’s just have a thread where we talk about how Markelle puts in work and how we’re on the Markelle train. That’s fascinating

Such a lazy response to call anyone a “hater” if you don’t like their take on things. Why bother typing? - just skip the thread and enjoy your life if all you want is blind faith…it’s kind of the point of forums, isn’t it?

Plenty of good attempts on all sides of the question…just the “hater” chirping that’s pointless. This country is so divided and hateful because people can no longer consider other opinions without doubling down and getting angry or depressed about public discourse. If someone makes a point, challenge it with facts or concede that it’s true but perhaps not that critical, because…

There’s a good case to be made for Markelle …but it requires some assumptions about him transforming his game. Some of us think it’s unlikely but are still hopeful, some of us think there’s no more time for patience due to our (possible) sudden turn towards relevance and the finances that come with it (that’s a good thing). Some think the time may be right for a trade or extension …isn’t that what Real GM is…trying to think like a GM?

I don’t recall anyone hating Markelle.

Your opinion on Fultz presumes he needs to transform his game for there to be a case for him. What “case”? You mean justification for him being on the court? He has already justified his place on the court with his current game. Having the team play near .500 ball with him as the starting PG justified his place on the court.

Are you making the claim that Fultz doesn’t need to improve (transform) his game to justify being one of the 30 best point guards in the nba?

Look, I get that people have faith in Markelle that he will improve as a shooter, get to the line, improve defensively, assists etc. However, to claim someone is being a “hater” or “prejudice” because they don’t think his game translates to winning basketball right now at this very moment is ridiculous based on the data we have. The criticism of his game is not random and out of nowhere. If anything, it’s more than valid.

Not everyone is an overly optimistic Magic Twitter person who thinks Fultz is the goat with no room for improvement or concern. Fultz is going to be well-paid as a starter at a critical position on the roster. He isn’t absolved from criticism.

[Skybox]

Yes…let’s just have a thread where we talk about how Markelle puts in work and how we’re on the Markelle train. That’s fascinating

Such a lazy response to call anyone a “hater” if you don’t like their take on things. Why bother typing? - just skip the thread and enjoy your life if all you want is blind faith…it’s kind of the point of forums, isn’t it?

Plenty of good attempts on all sides of the question…just the “hater” chirping that’s pointless. This country is so divided and hateful because people can no longer consider other opinions without doubling down and getting angry or depressed about public discourse. If someone makes a point, challenge it with facts or concede that it’s true but perhaps not that critical, because…

There’s a good case to be made for Markelle …but it requires some assumptions about him transforming his game. Some of us think it’s unlikely but are still hopeful, some of us think there’s no more time for patience due to our (possible) sudden turn towards relevance and the finances that come with it (that’s a good thing). Some think the time may be right for a trade or extension …isn’t that what Real GM is…trying to think like a GM?

I don’t recall anyone hating Markelle.

Ok, change the word “hate” to “prejudiced” if it bothers you that much -

How about YOU change it- you’re the one using it incorrectly

It’s clear hate/prejudice …(you might want to get a dictionary)because you guys have demonstrated you’ll be unhappy regardless of the result. You don’t think we’ll win games with Fultz at the helm, but then you’re convinced we’ll win games and re-sign him to a long extension. So which is it? Can you see clearly enough through the hate to pick which path you hate the most?

If you don’t like being regarded as a hater, just try not hating on him so much.

Wow…can’t argue with that last bit

[Skybox]

Yes…let’s just have a thread where we talk about how Markelle puts in work and how we’re on the Markelle train. That’s fascinating

Such a lazy response to call anyone a “hater” if you don’t like their take on things. Why bother typing? - just skip the thread and enjoy your life if all you want is blind faith…it’s kind of the point of forums, isn’t it?

Plenty of good attempts on all sides of the question…just the “hater” chirping that’s pointless. This country is so divided and hateful because people can no longer consider other opinions without doubling down and getting angry or depressed about public discourse. If someone makes a point, challenge it with facts or concede that it’s true but perhaps not that critical, because…

There’s a good case to be made for Markelle …but it requires some assumptions about him transforming his game. Some of us think it’s unlikely but are still hopeful, some of us think there’s no more time for patience due to our (possible) sudden turn towards relevance and the finances that come with it (that’s a good thing). Some think the time may be right for a trade or extension …isn’t that what Real GM is…trying to think like a GM?

I don’t recall anyone hating Markelle.

Your opinion on Fultz presumes he needs to transform his game for there to be a case for him. What “case”? You mean justification for him being on the court? He has already justified his place on the court with his current game. Having the team play near .500 ball with him as the starting PG justified his place on the court.

Are you making the claim that Fultz doesn’t need to improve (transform) his game to justify being one of the 30 best point guards in the nba?

Look, I get that people have faith in Markelle that he will improve as a shooter, get to the line, improve defensively, assists etc. However, to claim someone is being a “hater” or “prejudice” because they don’t think his game translates to winning basketball right now at this very moment is ridiculous based on the data we have. The criticism of his game is not random and out of nowhere. If anything, it’s more than valid.

Not everyone is an overly optimistic Magic Twitter person who thinks Fultz is the goat with no room for improvement or concern. Fultz is going to be well-paid as a starter at a critical position on the roster. He isn’t absolved from criticism.

You forgot that he “puts in work”

[Bensational]

Yes…let’s just have a thread where we talk about how Markelle puts in work and how we’re on the Markelle train. That’s fascinating

Such a lazy response to call anyone a “hater” if you don’t like their take on things. Why bother typing? - just skip the thread and enjoy your life if all you want is blind faith…it’s kind of the point of forums, isn’t it?

Plenty of good attempts on all sides of the question…just the “hater” chirping that’s pointless. This country is so divided and hateful because people can no longer consider other opinions without doubling down and getting angry or depressed about public discourse. If someone makes a point, challenge it with facts or concede that it’s true but perhaps not that critical, because…

There’s a good case to be made for Markelle …but it requires some assumptions about him transforming his game. Some of us think it’s unlikely but are still hopeful, some of us think there’s no more time for patience due to our (possible) sudden turn towards relevance and the finances that come with it (that’s a good thing). Some think the time may be right for a trade or extension …isn’t that what Real GM is…trying to think like a GM?

I don’t recall anyone hating Markelle.

Ok, change the word “hate” to “prejudiced” if it bothers you that much -

How about YOU change it- you’re the one using it incorrectly

It’s clear hate/prejudice …(you might want to get a dictionary)because you guys have demonstrated you’ll be unhappy regardless of the result. You don’t think we’ll win games with Fultz at the helm, but then you’re convinced we’ll win games and re-sign him to a long extension. So which is it? Can you see clearly enough through the hate to pick which path you hate the most?

If you don’t like being regarded as a hater, just try not hating on him so much.

Wow…can’t argue with that last bit

Show me where the context of the word “prejudice” isn’t correct here.

[Skybox]

Ok, change the word “hate” to “prejudiced” if it bothers you that much -

How about YOU change it- you’re the one using it incorrectly

It’s clear hate/prejudice …(you might want to get a dictionary)because you guys have demonstrated you’ll be unhappy regardless of the result. You don’t think we’ll win games with Fultz at the helm, but then you’re convinced we’ll win games and re-sign him to a long extension. So which is it? Can you see clearly enough through the hate to pick which path you hate the most?

If you don’t like being regarded as a hater, just try not hating on him so much.

Wow…can’t argue with that last bit

Show me where the context of the word “prejudice” isn’t correct here.

I understand your point and your use of the word…it’s just completely inaccurate. Assuming “you guys” includes me, you might want to consider all of the specific scenarios that I include in my hateful posts to show what I think Markelle could add to his game to be a good fit with the unquestioned core players on this team…if he can tweak his game to be a more realistic 2023 PG, I’m in. So…prejudice is the wrong word. I’m not decidedly against Markelle. I’m not prejudiced in the way you suggest. My bias isn’t at all personal or emotional (like your defense of him). It’s 100% based on team needs and reality of the ceiling on this team as presently constructed. The easiest, best solution to our PG problem would be for him to change, because he’s already here, and he’s potentially got it in him. At one time, he was the next big thing #1 pick…I tend to believe that makes it more likely that he could be that again vs someone who was never great becoming great….THE question is “How long can we hang on to this experiment before it’s evident that he’s not that guy?”. There’s no question that he’s lacking right now, he’s already an overpaid expiring deal, and he’ll be expecting a raise.

It’d be more realistic to disparage YOU GUYS as Markelle “lovers” or fanboys or apologists, since you stand by your man, without any consideration or discussion based on his style of play, our team needs, what could reasonably change for the better and what deadlines the FO might give themselves to finally make some decisions about our weak guard rotation.

[JoshuaPotter]

Are you making the claim that Fultz doesn’t need to improve (transform) his game to justify being one of the 30 best point guards in the nba?

Look, I get that people have faith in Markelle that he will improve as a shooter, get to the line, improve defensively, assists etc. However, to claim someone is being a “hater” or “prejudice” because they don’t think his game translates to winning basketball right now at this very moment is ridiculous based on the data we have. The criticism of his game is not random and out of nowhere. If anything, it’s more than valid.

Not everyone is an overly optimistic Magic Twitter person who thinks Fultz is the goat with no room for improvement or concern. Fultz is going to be well-paid as a starter at a critical position on the roster. He isn’t absolved from criticism.

Let me help. I think we all had a list based on things Fultz said he wanted to improve vs what we agreed with (shooting being the big one.) But aha you did give us a list.....

List of hopeful improvements
- Improve as shooter (3ball)
- Get to the line at an above average or elite level
- Improve defensively
- Higher assists

Things based on pre season I would like to scratch off as "aint happening" based on sample size....

- X Improve as shooter (3ball) X
- Get to the line at an above average or elite level
- Improve defensively
- X Higher assists X

In the pre season game plan we can knix those two based on what we have seen. The question remains, when you add it all up, does he improve defensively especially when paired with Suggs, and will get alternatively get to the line at an elite level when the starting 5 have to play grind ball.

There is always the argument that have two ball dominant "F" leaves little for someone who isn't a shooter, or hurts someone who is good at setting up an offense (assists). But gosh darn it, that is the whole darn point to begin with.....

Edit : Fultz on paper has the rest of his career to improve his defense. In a vacuum. If you told me that Brook Lopez could reinvent himself as a DPOTY candidate, well I don't see how it isn't possible for Fultz to do better there for the rest of his career. It just is about as likely as Lopez doing it.

[pepe1991]

hoping somebody in year 7 of being professional adds things to his game that he never had belong in same category of BS like hoping Howard learns post moves from Hakeem just because he had couple of workouts with him.

it's waste of time.

You will either be okey what Fultz is and has been for past 6 years, or won't.

But one thing 100% won't happen. He 100% won't become "new " player in year seven, after spending 15 years playing basketball that molded him in player he was all the way up until last regular season game, 150-180 days ago.

Summer workouts aren't transformation chambers. Life isn't video game.

[JoshuaPotter]

hoping somebody in year 7 of being professional adds things to his game that he never had belong in same category of BS like hoping Howard learns post moves from Hakeem just because he had couple of workouts with him.

it's waste of time.

You will either be okey what Fultz is and has been for past 6 years, or won't.

But one thing 100% won't happen. He 100% won't become "new " player in year seven, after spending 15 years playing basketball that molded him in player he was all the way up until last regular season game, 150-180 days ago.

Summer workouts aren't transformation chambers. Life isn't video game.

Sums up how I feel. I was hoping we would see a "refinement" going into year 7 that would prove us wrong. Especially with all that buzz at the end of last year of him saying "I can shoot 3's" being lauded in the echo chamber.

Yet here we are, not only did it not happen. But it REALLY didn't happen thus far. Pre-season while a dress rehearsal of sorts is the perfect time to showcase game improvements.

I think a better analogy for the kids though Pepe is the anime phrase "This isn't my final form". Then the bad guy / good guy displays an even better trick or level of skill or power and so on.

This isn't a video game, this isn't anime. I honestly think out of everything on the list he can improve his defensive game being the "most probable". But I digress, and I probably wont comment on this thread for the next couple days.

[zaymon]

If life was anime, Fultz would be Yamcha. Appears to be strong in first episodes but then lagging further and further behind until Saibaman kills you.

[Skin]

Read on Twitter

[Audi]

Wow…can’t argue with that last bit

Show me where the context of the word “prejudice” isn’t correct here.

I understand your point and your use of the word…it’s just completely inaccurate. Assuming “you guys” includes me, you might want to consider all of the specific scenarios that I include in my hateful posts to show what I think Markelle could add to his game to be a good fit with the unquestioned core players on this team…if he can tweak his game to be a more realistic 2023 PG, I’m in. So…prejudice is the wrong word. I’m not decidedly against Markelle. I’m not prejudiced in the way you suggest. My bias isn’t at all personal or emotional (like your defense of him). It’s 100% based on team needs and reality of the ceiling on this team as presently constructed. The easiest, best solution to our PG problem would be for him to change, because he’s already here, and he’s potentially got it in him.

I think there's a divide here with the bolded (atleast between this POV and my own), centered squarely on the fact that the "unquestioned core players on this team" are both very very young. I think Franz is just scratching the surface of what his game will some day look like - but even as it is now - Fultz 'fits' with him just fine. Anyone fits with Franz - that's partly why he's such a incredibly valuable asset and the league knows it. The other core member is still clearly feeling the waters. I simply don't like predicating my opinion on whether a player should be on the team or not based on how he fits with a guy who is still figuring out his game and only recently wrapped up his rookie campaign. There's really nothing of real substance for Fultz (or any other player) to "fit with" yet.

That's why I've always been on board with a clear, common sense upgrade (for any of our players) that would still be around when our core players DO transition from 'defining their games' to 'refining their games'. Or, if at that time Markelle's game doesn't 'fit' with the then clearly defined roster needs, get someone who would fit better.

[AaronB]

hoping somebody in year 7 of being professional adds things to his game that he never had belong in same category of BS like hoping Howard learns post moves from Hakeem just because he had couple of workouts with him.

it's waste of time.

You will either be okey what Fultz is and has been for past 6 years, or won't.

But one thing 100% won't happen. He 100% won't become "new " player in year seven, after spending 15 years playing basketball that molded him in player he was all the way up until last regular season game, 150-180 days ago.

Summer workouts aren't transformation chambers. Life isn't video game.

Kyle Lowrie says hello

[Knightro]

Kyle Lowrie says hello

Lowry is a pretty extreme outlier in the sense that it's super rare for a guy to not be an all-star from age 20-27 and then become a perennial all-star from age 28-33. Probably not wise to try and replicate the 1/100 example when 99 other guys didn't do it, ya know?

But by year 4 Lowry already had peripherals Fultz has never come close to showing. Lowry's FT rate and 3PT rates in year 4 were already miles above anything Markelle's ever shown in his career.

[AaronB]

Kyle Lowrie says hello

Lowry is a pretty extreme outlier in the sense that it's super rare for a guy to not be an all-star from age 20-27 and then become a perennial all-star from age 28-33. Probably not wise to try and replicate the 1/100 example when 99 other guys didn't do it, ya know?

But by year 4 Lowry already had peripherals Fultz has never come close to showing. Lowry's FT rate and 3PT rates in year 4 were already miles above anything Markelle's ever shown in his career.

Stupid reply.

I was replying to the sheer impossibility of improvements occurring after 6 seasons. Agassi did not win a major until his 7th professional year.

It happens. Fultz was the first teenager to score a triple-double. Big deal. He is currently a top 100 player in the NBA by consensus organizations.

As I have said, I am bullish Fultz. Only thing holding him back from a great season is health. If the top 4 players are healthy they are going to win a ton of games.

[Knightro]

Stupid reply.

I was replying to the sheer impossibility of improvements occurring after 6 seasons. Agassi did not win a major until his 7th professional year.

It happens. Fultz was the first teenager to score a triple-double. Big deal. He is currently a top 100 player in the NBA by consensus organizations.

As I have said, I am bullish Fultz. Only thing holding him back from a great season is health. If the top 4 players are healthy they are going to win a ton of games.

You also are clearly smart enough to know what we're talking about here.

If someone says "outcome X can never happen" - they're not being literal with the word never and you know that.

A tiny percentage that something *could* happen because it's happened on very rare occasions before is just not something to chase.

It's like saying "oh who cares where you draft because multiple time MVP and future Hall of Famer Jokic was a 2nd rounder" - chasing extreme outliers isn't a viable strategy. But you know that too.

Pointing out there's a difference between impossibility and extreme improbability isn't an A+ counterpoint.

[yoyojw17]

hoping somebody in year 7 of being professional adds things to his game that he never had belong in same category of BS like hoping Howard learns post moves from Hakeem just because he had couple of workouts with him.

it's waste of time.

You will either be okey what Fultz is and has been for past 6 years, or won't.

But one thing 100% won't happen. He 100% won't become "new " player in year seven, after spending 15 years playing basketball that molded him in player he was all the way up until last regular season game, 150-180 days ago.

Summer workouts aren't transformation chambers. Life isn't video game.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/markelle-fultz-1.html

I won't ever say "never"... Washington Fultz before the Debilitating TOS syndrome and a few injuries to start his career.... would also suggest otherwise. There was a reason why he was the #1 pick in the 2017 draft.... and we all know the circumstances that have messed with his progress.

This is the healthiest he's been in forever.... and that's why many of us want to see what he can be before making any decisions. There should be no "never" with him... as letting him go or simply trading him before seeing would be a poor talent management move by the front office.

Yep... i would love to see him shooting 3's like everyone else... and personally have the patience to give him that opportunity. but as long as people use that as the only measure stick for whether or not he fits and overlooks the good that he does.... and the successes that he helps bring.... then people will always say "We just need a shooter"... " #ShooterMakesUsBetter "

needless to say.... the team could be less successful too if all they did was swap him for a fred vanvleet like so many people wanted. There are so many variables that are necessary to make the team successful..... so if the front office sees what others don't... so be it! There's only one decision that is going to be made... and none of us are going to make them.... nor will all of our hopes and dreams be pleased. lol

[Skybox]

There's "possible" and there's "what you're willing to bet on"...and how long you wait to decide.

It's not my money, but there IS a salary cap...so it's a decision that must be made. Sometimes, making even an imperfect decision is still more productive than avoiding it.

[Skin]

Soo much crying about his 3 when he does this routinely... smh. It's true, he does make defenses sag on his shot

Read on Twitter

[T-Cat]

hoping somebody in year 7 of being professional adds things to his game that he never had belong in same category of BS like hoping Howard learns post moves from Hakeem just because he had couple of workouts with him.

it's waste of time.

You will either be okey what Fultz is and has been for past 6 years, or won't.

But one thing 100% won't happen. He 100% won't become "new " player in year seven, after spending 15 years playing basketball that molded him in player he was all the way up until last regular season game, 150-180 days ago.

Summer workouts aren't transformation chambers. Life isn't video game.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/markelle-fultz-1.html

I won't ever say "never"... Washington Fultz before the Debilitating TOS syndrome and a few injuries to start his career.... would also suggest otherwise. There was a reason why he was the #1 pick in the 2017 draft.... and we all know the circumstances that have messed with his progress.

This is the healthiest he's been in forever.... and that's why many of us want to see what he can be before making any decisions. There should be no "never" with him... as letting him go or simply trading him before seeing would be a poor talent management move by the front office.

Yep... i would love to see him shooting 3's like everyone else... and personally have the patience to give him that opportunity. but as long as people use that as the only measure stick for whether or not he fits and overlooks the good that he does.... and the successes that he helps bring.... then people will always say "We just need a shooter"... " #ShooterMakesUsBetter "

needless to say.... the team could be less successful too if all they did was swap him for a fred vanvleet like so many people wanted. There are so many variables that are necessary to make the team successful..... so if the front office sees what others don't... so be it! There's only one decision that is going to be made... and none of us are going to make them.... nor will all of our hopes and dreams be pleased. lol

I agree 100%! I want Fultz to be that #1 pick that NBA fans envisioned and he works hard on his game every year! We just need him to take over and be the man, not just blend in!

[SOUL]

Read on Twitter

Can't say I enjoy that hitch being back though, his jumper seemed smoother last year.