2016 Official Speculation Thread: Episode V - The Preseason Strikes Back

[SOUL]

Well, they were rumored to want to trade for him on draft night so that's no surprise. Hopefully he plays well for us and sticks with us.

[BadMofoPimp]

The pure disdain some on this forum have for Harkless is getting to be a little ... strange. The way some speak about him on here its shocking hes not playing in China or the D-league. When in reality he just got a nice deal after he gave a playoff team quality minutes and most of their fans seem happy about it.

Get your money Maurice!

Once a player leaves the Magic, they were scrubs to begin with. . .

[npiper17]

Off-Season News and Speculation! The first of many suitors for Ibaka coming to light.

The Magic just traded for Serge Ibaka, and best-case scenario, he’ll play well for them this season. Then, Orlando will have to fight off outside suitors when Ibaka becomes an unrestricted free agent — and there will be outside suitors.

Start with Toronto.

Doug Smith of the Toronto Star on the Raptors (hat tip: Luke Adams of Hoops Rumors):

"Rest assured, at this moment – and all know how things can change – I know a free agent Serge Ibaka is very much on their minds."

http://nba.nbcsports.com/2016/08/01/report-raptors-eying-serge-ibaka-in-2017-free-agency/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

And here's me thinking Ibaka is a declining POS

[Def Swami]

The pure disdain some on this forum have for Harkless is getting to be a little ... strange. The way some speak about him on here its shocking hes not playing in China or the D-league. When in reality he just got a nice deal after he gave a playoff team quality minutes and most of their fans seem happy about it.

Get your money Maurice!

Once a player leaves the Magic, they were scrubs to begin with. . .

I'll never forget the "who would you rather have start at shooting guard" threads pre- and post- Oladipo trade. We got straight up data to prove how fickle this board is!

[Melvinlocker]

Well, they were rumored to want to trade for him on draft night so that's no surprise. Hopefully he plays well for us and sticks with us.

I think we will eventually have to move some parts around to accommodate Ibaka's desire to have an expanded role. The most likely candidate is Vucevic (It's unfortunate because he is a terrific player). You can't have two high usage players on the roster that don't draw fouls. It's just not effective offense.

The problem for us is that once we trade Vucevic, we likely have a huge gap in spacing, passing and scoring. As others have alluded to, starting Biyombo, AG and Elfrid is bad spacing even if our young guys improve. I think our way out of this is finding a big who can draw fouls, pass and defend/rebound well. Here is a list of guys I'd target in order:

1. Mason Plumlee
2. Cody Zeller
3. Dwight Powell
4. Kelly Olynyk

I'd then use our remaining assets to target a PG/SG like Brandon Knight.

This is the ideal lineup for me.

Plumlee/Biyombo
Ibaka/Green
AG/Hezonja/Green
Fournier/Hezonja
Knight/Augustin

3rd string- Watson, Wilcox, Zimmerman, 2 bag of Doritos.

Plumlee is an absolute gem of a C. He compliments Ibaka and Knight perfectly. He can roll to the rim, draw fouls, rebound and defend (everyone knows this). Most importantly, he is a tremendous passer. See video below:

Watch on YouTube

Spacing isn't an issue anymore with certified killers in Knight & Fournier. Our offense could be structured similar to the Portland Trailblazers last year with the difference being we have two bonafide defensive stars in Biyombo and Ibaka. We'd also have better ball handling from the SF position as AG is superior to Aminu and Harkless in that area.

[BadMofoPimp]

Well, they were rumored to want to trade for him on draft night so that's no surprise. Hopefully he plays well for us and sticks with us.

I think we will eventually have to move some parts around to accommodate Ibaka's desire to have an expanded role. The most likely candidate is Vucevic (It's unfortunate because he is a terrific player). You can't have two high usage players on the roster that don't draw fouls. It's just not effective offense.

The problem for us is that once we trade Vucevic, we likely have a huge gap in spacing, passing and scoring. As others have alluded to, starting Biyombo, AG and Elfrid is bad spacing even if our young guys improve. I think our way out of this is finding a big who can draw fouls, pass and defend/rebound well. Here is a list of guys I'd target in order:

1. Mason Plumlee
2. Cody Zeller
3. Dwight Powell
4. Kelly Olynyk

I'd then use our remaining assets to target a PG/SG like Brandon Knight.

This is the ideal lineup for me.

Plumlee/Biyombo
Ibaka/Green
AG/Hezonja/Green
Fournier/Hezonja
Knight/Augustin

3rd string- Watson, Wilcox, Zimmerman, 2 bag of Doritos.

Plumlee is an absolute gem of a C. He compliments Ibaka and Knight perfectly. He can roll to the rim, draw fouls, rebound and defend (everyone knows this). Most importantly, he is a tremendous passer. See video below:

Watch on YouTube

Spacing isn't an issue anymore with certified killers in Knight & Fournier. Our offense could be structured similar to the Portland Trailblazers last year with the difference being we have two bonafide defensive stars in Biyombo and Ibaka. We'd also have better ball handling from the SF position as AG is superior to Aminu and Harkless in that area.

All Magic players don't draw fouls. Lets just trade them all!!!

[tiderulz]

1 - nope, not referring to the Magic at all

2 - HArkless had little to zero value. No one was going to give up a rotation player for HArkless, a rotation player. Why would they? and we werent going to get a 1st. you dont think that if a 1st was out there, Hennigan wouldnt have traded him for it?

FYI.

1) Most teams in the NBA have just as much if not more experience than Magic Management.

2) Harkless had value, Henny is just not good at developing trades. Just about every trade since the Harris aquiring has been lopsided in favor of the other teams.

#1 - was for YOUR second guessing with your zero experience.

#2 - you dont know that Harkless had value, that is just your badly formed opinion. Hennigan isnt dumb. He wouldnt turn down a 1st round pick for a protected 2nd round pick.

[tiderulz]

Off-Season News and Speculation! The first of many suitors for Ibaka coming to light.

The Magic just traded for Serge Ibaka, and best-case scenario, he’ll play well for them this season. Then, Orlando will have to fight off outside suitors when Ibaka becomes an unrestricted free agent — and there will be outside suitors.

Start with Toronto.

Doug Smith of the Toronto Star on the Raptors (hat tip: Luke Adams of Hoops Rumors):

"Rest assured, at this moment – and all know how things can change – I know a free agent Serge Ibaka is very much on their minds."

http://nba.nbcsports.com/2016/08/01/report-raptors-eying-serge-ibaka-in-2017-free-agency/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

And here's me thinking Ibaka is a declining POS

well, that is what Bondom from the OKC fans would have you believe

[PennytoShaq]

1 - nope, not referring to the Magic at all

2 - HArkless had little to zero value. No one was going to give up a rotation player for HArkless, a rotation player. Why would they? and we werent going to get a 1st. you dont think that if a 1st was out there, Hennigan wouldnt have traded him for it?

FYI.

1) Most teams in the NBA have just as much if not more experience than Magic Management.

2) Harkless had value, Henny is just not good at developing trades. Just about every trade since the Harris aquiring has been lopsided in favor of the other teams.

2. Ever think that you just don't understand the trades? Because that is really the issue here. Hennigan took a 2nd round pick and cash because he was trying to shed contracts. He did the same with Harris and with Oladipo he saved paying a draft pick $$ and acquiring a guy with a long term deal. He did all those things on purpose because he has a core of young guys that he wants to keep here. You are thinking short term and don't get that at all.

Harkless is a nice player, but he just got $40m. If we signed him to that deal I guarantee you'd be the first person to criticize it.

[BadMofoPimp]

1 - nope, not referring to the Magic at all

2 - HArkless had little to zero value. No one was going to give up a rotation player for HArkless, a rotation player. Why would they? and we werent going to get a 1st. you dont think that if a 1st was out there, Hennigan wouldnt have traded him for it?

FYI.

1) Most teams in the NBA have just as much if not more experience than Magic Management.

2) Harkless had value, Henny is just not good at developing trades. Just about every trade since the Harris aquiring has been lopsided in favor of the other teams.

2. Ever think that you just don't understand the trades? Because that is really the issue here. Hennigan took a 2nd round pick and cash because he was trying to shed contracts. He did the same with Harris and with Oladipo he saved paying a draft pick $$ and acquiring a guy with a long term deal. He did all those things on purpose because he has a core of young guys that he wants to keep here. You are thinking short term and don't get that at all.

Harkless is a nice player, but he just got $40m. If we signed him to that deal I guarantee you'd be the first person to criticize it.

Damn Straight! I wouldn't pay him any more than $8 mil tops with 3rd or 4th year a Team Option! There must have been other teams interested for the price to shoot up to $10 mil per with no options.

[PennytoShaq]

FYI.

1) Most teams in the NBA have just as much if not more experience than Magic Management.

2) Harkless had value, Henny is just not good at developing trades. Just about every trade since the Harris aquiring has been lopsided in favor of the other teams.

2. Ever think that you just don't understand the trades? Because that is really the issue here. Hennigan took a 2nd round pick and cash because he was trying to shed contracts. He did the same with Harris and with Oladipo he saved paying a draft pick $$ and acquiring a guy with a long term deal. He did all those things on purpose because he has a core of young guys that he wants to keep here. You are thinking short term and don't get that at all.

Harkless is a nice player, but he just got $40m. If we signed him to that deal I guarantee you'd be the first person to criticize it.

Damn Straight! I wouldn't pay him any more than $8 mil tops with 3rd or 4th year a Team Option! There must have been other teams interested for the price to shoot up to $10 mil per with no options.

You may be right. He did not garner a ton if interest, but who knows. The point is that I think Rob is excellent at seeing things a step ahead and not hamstringing our cap. That is why it looks like we give guys away, when really it's Rob deciding he wants future flexibility. I am willing to bet he got offers for Harkless that were veteran salary dumps and that is why he ended up taking the 2nd rounder and cash,

[RickB-Orlando]

The pure disdain some on this forum have for Harkless is getting to be a little ... strange. The way some speak about him on here its shocking hes not playing in China or the D-league. When in reality he just got a nice deal after he gave a playoff team quality minutes and most of their fans seem happy about it.

Get your money Maurice!

Once a player leaves the Magic, they were scrubs to begin with. . .

I don't think that's what people are saying, but Harkless, in his time here, showed brief flashes of potential combined with a player that slacked off much more than he hustled. He was *handed* the starting 3 spot and never showed real signs of breaking out.

He really never showed he could live up to the potential he showed at St. Johns.

Now people are making it sound like he's Portland's savior, when in truth he showed blatantly sub-par performances. Yes, he showed a bit in the playoffs, but he basically was a bland player that somehow managed to get a 4 year contract in an offseason that is ripe with overpaid, overvalued contracts. Good for him, but I fully expect him to get lazy again and enjoy his success rather than turn it up another notch. I'll be happy to be wrong, but I'll also be surprised.

[BadMofoPimp]

The pure disdain some on this forum have for Harkless is getting to be a little ... strange. The way some speak about him on here its shocking hes not playing in China or the D-league. When in reality he just got a nice deal after he gave a playoff team quality minutes and most of their fans seem happy about it.

Get your money Maurice!

Once a player leaves the Magic, they were scrubs to begin with. . .

I don't think that's what people are saying, but Harkless, in his time here, showed brief flashes of potential combined with a player that slacked off much more than he hustled. He was *handed* the starting 3 spot and never showed real signs of breaking out.

He really never showed he could live up to the potential he showed at St. Johns.

Now people are making it sound like he's Portland's savior, when in truth he showed blatantly sub-par performances. Yes, he showed a bit in the playoffs, but he basically was a bland player that somehow managed to get a 4 year contract in an offseason that is ripe with overpaid, overvalued contracts. Good for him, but I fully expect him to get lazy again and enjoy his success rather than turn it up another notch. I'll be happy to be wrong, but I'll also be surprised.

I think he became disenchanted here when the team committed more to Harris and Fournier. Who knows. He has the ability to play better than he had shown.

[shadrock]

Because you all are wrong about Hark and NBA front offices know more about talent than we do?

Going by that logic GMs are above criticism and fans have never correctly predicted a GM's decision to end poorly. We've seen Harkless for 4 years, 3 with us, and he's still not a good basketball player.

I'm not saying they're above criticism. You asked Why they bothered paying him that much when they signed turner and Crabbe to sizable deals. My response is because there's a strong possibility that its because people are wrong about Harkless.

He increased his FT attempts and percentages and his overall FG% not to mention he played good defense for them, but despite that, he played really well in the playoffs, and if Biymbo is deserving of a contract based on two games then clearly so is Harkless considering his 11 game stretch.

#NicolaVucevic I understand that there are exceptions to the norm, but generally speaking they know more than we do. So its likely they see talent and value in Harkless that we don't, especially a bias fan base who want so bad to not have given yet another young player away for nothing.

We got back in that trade what he was worth. Next to nothing.

Are you sure you watched him play for Portland enough? Obviously he's worth more than next to nothing, to a playoff team nonetheless.

You guys dont seem to not understand how the NBA system works. Sure Harkless has some value, but the fact is that at present, he is not worth more than the contract/cap space he is being paid/taking up. The hit to a teams salary is all the price someone is willing to pay for Harkless right now. That's just how it is. That is why teams are not willing to offer anything of significance for him. In a world where there are no salaries and no maximum number of players on a roster, sure, Harkless has value. But in the real world, where there is a salary cap, he is just one of many players whose value does not exceed the contract which they are being paid. Its the reason that if Portland tried to trade Harkless right now, they would quickly find they are in the same situation as us, and that nobody would given them a significant offer.

Let me ask you this. Would you prefer to have A) Harkless, or B) $10 million in cap space for free agency? Id safely say id prefer the cap space.

To summarise, cap space has value, players have value. Just because you trade a player doesn't mean you have been robbed if you don't get one back. It is expected that with cap space you can obtain talent, and in that sense cap space has value. And it is not expected that you can sign a player into this cap space, and then trade him for even more value again. That's just not how it works.

[Melvinlocker]

Well, they were rumored to want to trade for him on draft night so that's no surprise. Hopefully he plays well for us and sticks with us.

I think we will eventually have to move some parts around to accommodate Ibaka's desire to have an expanded role. The most likely candidate is Vucevic (It's unfortunate because he is a terrific player). You can't have two high usage players on the roster that don't draw fouls. It's just not effective offense.

The problem for us is that once we trade Vucevic, we likely have a huge gap in spacing, passing and scoring. As others have alluded to, starting Biyombo, AG and Elfrid is bad spacing even if our young guys improve. I think our way out of this is finding a big who can draw fouls, pass and defend/rebound well. Here is a list of guys I'd target in order:

1. Mason Plumlee
2. Cody Zeller
3. Dwight Powell
4. Kelly Olynyk

I'd then use our remaining assets to target a PG/SG like Brandon Knight.

This is the ideal lineup for me.

Plumlee/Biyombo
Ibaka/Green
AG/Hezonja/Green
Fournier/Hezonja
Knight/Augustin

3rd string- Watson, Wilcox, Zimmerman, 2 bag of Doritos.

Plumlee is an absolute gem of a C. He compliments Ibaka and Knight perfectly. He can roll to the rim, draw fouls, rebound and defend (everyone knows this). Most importantly, he is a tremendous passer. See video below:

Watch on YouTube

Spacing isn't an issue anymore with certified killers in Knight & Fournier. Our offense could be structured similar to the Portland Trailblazers last year with the difference being we have two bonafide defensive stars in Biyombo and Ibaka. We'd also have better ball handling from the SF position as AG is superior to Aminu and Harkless in that area.

All Magic players don't draw fouls. Lets just trade them all!!!

Boom! Done deal!

I actually like Vucevic and think he is a little bit underrated on this board, but I think he is hard to build around with his skill set. By the same token, Elfrid is even harder to build around, yet we are trying to build an offense around both of them while promising Ibaka, Fournier & Gordon increased roles. That means less shots for Vuc, which severely reduces his impact on offense IMO.

Also, Ibaka & Vucevic get their shots in almost the exact same areas. If we devote nearly half of our offense to their style of play (i.e. long 2s, postups & shallow cuts to the midpost), then how predicable does that make us? We don't have the luxury of spacing to cover up our offensive mistakes either. Maybe Vucevic can change up his playing style now that Ibaka is here. Players such as Marc Gasol & Greg Monroe were able to draw contact with similar limitations, maybe Vucevic will do the same?

In the scenario I described, we maintain many of Vuvecic's good qualities (passing & rebounding) while getting some complementary skills from Plumlee (low/moderate usage rate, true rim roller) next to Ibaka. There is a usage vacuum that can then be filled by Knight who is a really solid shooter. There is also room for AG & Ibaka to expand their games slightly without forcing them to be 20 pt per game scorers.

In regard to passing, Knight is nowhere near Elfrid. In fact he is slightly below average for a PG. This problem can be minimized by letting him run offensive sets where he initiates with a 1->2 pass and cut to the lane where he begins some off the ball action. With passers like Plumlee, Fournier & AG, we should be able to generate enough offense. Players such as Tony Parker, Steph Curry, Damian Lillard, Jason Terry and C.J. McCollum have made a killing off of this offensive play style.

[NickAnderson]

Replace Vuc with Mason Plumlee. Just when you thought you heard it all.

Sent from my HTC6535LVW using RealGM mobile app

[Blue_and_Whte]

Going by that logic GMs are above criticism and fans have never correctly predicted a GM's decision to end poorly. We've seen Harkless for 4 years, 3 with us, and he's still not a good basketball player.

I'm not saying they're above criticism. You asked Why they bothered paying him that much when they signed turner and Crabbe to sizable deals. My response is because there's a strong possibility that its because people are wrong about Harkless.

He increased his FT attempts and percentages and his overall FG% not to mention he played good defense for them, but despite that, he played really well in the playoffs, and if Biymbo is deserving of a contract based on two games then clearly so is Harkless considering his 11 game stretch.

We got back in that trade what he was worth. Next to nothing.

Are you sure you watched him play for Portland enough? Obviously he's worth more than next to nothing, to a playoff team nonetheless.

You guys dont seem to not understand how the NBA system works. Sure Harkless has some value, but the fact is that at present, he is not worth more than the contract/cap space he is being paid/taking up. The hit to a teams salary is all the price someone is willing to pay for Harkless right now. That's just how it is. That is why teams are not willing to offer anything of significance for him. In a world where there are no salaries and no maximum number of players on a roster, sure, Harkless has value. But in the real world, where there is a salary cap, he is just one of many players whose value does not exceed the contract which they are being paid. Its the reason that if Portland tried to trade Harkless right now, they would quickly find they are in the same situation as us, and that nobody would given them a significant offer.

Let me ask you this. Would you prefer to have A) Harkless, or B) $10 million in cap space for free agency? Id safely say id prefer the cap space.

To summarise, cap space has value, players have value. Just because you trade a player doesn't mean you have been robbed if you don't get one back. It is expected that with cap space you can obtain talent, and in that sense cap space has value. And it is not expected that you can sign a player into this cap space, and then trade him for even more value again. That's just not how it works.

But NBA teams know how it works and are better evaluators of talent than fans are. All day. I tell you what, I'd rather have Harkless backing up AG than Wilcox or Meeks behind Fournier. He has playoff experience and performed well.

[Blue_and_Whte]

Replace Vuc with Mason Plumlee. Just when you thought you heard it all.

Sent from my HTC6535LVW using RealGM mobile app

This kind of nonsense has been going on for awhile now. Now that Dipo is gone they've had to find a new scapegoat and since he isn't shiny and new like Biyombo, AG, Payton, and Mario he's definitely next in line. He's past his lifecycle for Magic fans.

Well, they were rumored to want to trade for him on draft night so that's no surprise. Hopefully he plays well for us and sticks with us.

There is a ton riding on this season and honestly I'm getting tired of these guys "turning it on" when they're already out of playoff contention. I want there to be no hesitation to bench a guy if it isn't producing wins, Idgaf who it is, where he was drafted, or how much he's getting paid.

If we don't start looking like a legitimate team then Ibaka is bolting for one that is and I wouldn't blame him at all. My concern is that with all the changes we've made the team is only slightly better on paper imo. I think Ibaka plays for a contract and leaves, once again making us a spring board for a player to boost his value while we're stuck with no hands Biyombo fumbling around as our prize off season aquisition. But he get get dem blocks doe

[OrlandoNed]

But he get get dem blocks doe

And Vuc gives up dem points in da paint playing like a turnstile doe. Who needs defense at center when you got dem long 2s bruh?

[Melvinlocker]

Replace Vuc with Mason Plumlee. Just when you thought you heard it all.

Sent from my HTC6535LVW using RealGM mobile app

Come on dude, that wasn't the full idea. It would likely take a three team trade to make the assets work, but the skeleton of the trade is:

ORL out: Vucevic & Elf.
ORL in: Knight & Plumlee.

Knight is certainly on par with Vucevic & he is younger too. Plumlee (though he is older) is probably better than Elfrid at this juncture barring a huge offensive leap.

I'm not even a Vucevic hater. I like what he brings to the team. His defense is underrated as is his jumpshot & passing ability. There just hasn't been a successful high usage player who doesn't get to the line, shoot a ton of threes or get a ton of assists. I even like Elfrid for his passing ability & defense. I'm just not seeing how they take us beyond a 45 win team.

Maybe Elfrid gets a solid jumper & Vucevic starts drawing contact, but I'm not holding my breath.