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Elf traded to Phoenix for second rounder

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Re: Elf traded to Phoenix for second rounder 

Post#161 » by MartinsIzAfraud » Fri Feb 9, 2018 2:26 pm

Optimus_Steel wrote:
Since the Orlando Magic obviously won’t do it themselves in the wake of their unceremonious dumping of floppy-haired point guard Elfrid Payton at the 11th hour of the NBA Trade Deadline on Thursday, allow me the honors of apologizing to former coach Scott Skiles.

Skiles tried to tell hard-headed former GM Rob Hennigan that Payton wasn’t a starting point guard in the NBA and Hennigan, of course, disagreed. It was a predictable response from Hennigan, who ridiculously traded a first- and second-round pick to acquire Payton in the 2014 draft.

In hindsight, it’s astonishing to think Philly had the 10th pick in the 2014 draft and Orlando had the 12th pick and Hennigan felt the need to give up two draft picks for a player of Payton’s limited skill set whom he might have been able to draft anyway.

What’s even more baffling is that Skiles, who played point guard in the NBA for a decade, was essentially overruled when he told Hennigan and Magic CEO Alex Martins of his concerns about Payton and other limited players on Orlando’s roster. Skiles quit after only one season because of his frustration with Hennigan.

“Scott certainly had his concerns; I don’t think that was any secret,” Martins told me when I asked him once if he should have listened to Skiles instead of Hennigan. “He made that very well known. He and I had several conversations about things during his tenure here.”

One of those concerns was Payton, a great guy but a not-so-great point guard. Many Magic fans on social media were complaining Thursday because Orlando traded Payton to Phoenix for a bag of balls (see second-round draft pick), but essentially that’s all he was worth. There is simply not a whole lot of demand for marginal point guards who can’t shoot and can’t defend.

“What the player is worth is what the league says he’s worth,” said Jeff Weltman, the Magic’s president of basketball operations. “We don’t create the market. The league creates the market.”

Here’s all you need to know: Scott Perry, now the GM of the New York Knicks who was Hennigan’s right-hand man in Orlando, wanted nothing to do with Payton at the trade deadline. Instead the Knicks made a deal for Denver Nuggets backup point guard Emmanuel Mudiay.

Payton is just the latest example of the nightmarish Hennigan era in Orlando. He will go down as just another wasted draft pick and another awful personnel move amid Hennigan’s failed rebuild.

Like most of Hennigan’s personnel moves, the departure of Elfrid Payton was just another in a long line of bad hair days for the Orlando Magic.


http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/orlando-magic/os-sp-elfrid-payton-trade-orlando-magic-phoenix-suns-skiles-hennigan-20180208-story.html

Bianchi bringing up again Skiles strong dislike for Payton.


think its a pretty fair conclusion that Skiles left because he didn't want to continue coaching when his input/playing experience/know for the game wasn't being valued and a 1st time GM's was.
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Re: Elf traded to Phoenix for second rounder 

Post#162 » by Orange Ave. » Fri Feb 9, 2018 2:38 pm

UCFJayBird wrote:I think one day he'll wind up somewhere and he'll be another former Magician fans say "how did we let him get away?!" (you know how we forget reasons, lol).


I hope we never "forget reasons" why we let Elfrid get away. So let's document it now. If Elfrid becomes league MVP, I will not feel bad about trading him yesterday for a second rounder BECAUSE:

He has led our team through it's worst 4 years in franchise history. His sample size has been huge, he has been given every opportunity and there is NO DATA that this management could hang its hat on to suggest that anything would be different with Elfrid in the future.

We could be dead wrong, but this is not a player we gave up on like Oladipo. Elfrid's market value being a 2nd rounder was not determined by our management, it was determined by Elfrid.
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Re: Elf traded to Phoenix for second rounder 

Post#163 » by Audi » Fri Feb 9, 2018 2:41 pm

Lol. Since when did it become acceptable to talk such trash about a 23 yr old who has shown steady improvement season to season?

"Here’s all you need to know: Scott Perry, now the GM of the New York Knicks who was Hennigan’s right-hand man in Orlando, wanted nothing to do with Payton at the trade deadline. Instead the Knicks made a deal for Denver Nuggets backup point guard Emmanuel Mudiay."

- Seriously. This is just sh-t journalism. What we ACTUALLY know is that Perry didn't want to give up Ntilikina to acquire Payton, which is the price we were asking for. Not that Payton is so terrible that he chose to go with Mudiay instead.

I swear, I've never seen a player shat on more than Elfrid after being traded. Even on XM today the false narrative that we chose Elfrid over Oladipo was being used to crap on the organization.
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Re: Elf traded to Phoenix for second rounder 

Post#164 » by drsd » Fri Feb 9, 2018 2:48 pm

axl_c_cool wrote:
drsd wrote:
According to Frank Isola of the New York Daily News, the New York Knicks and former Orlando Magic assistant general manager Scott Perry wanted Elfrid Payton. But the Magic were insistent on acquiring rookie guard Frank Ntilikina in the deal.


Interesting rumor as it speaks to what GM Hammond is trying to do a the PG slot.

..


If that was the case we should have offered to swap Biyombo for Noah and give them a 2nd. I hope we did. Frank next to Fournier and Doncic would have been amazing


Frankly was expecting Biyombo and Payton (and you say a 2nd) for Noah and Ntilikina.

With a draft of Dončić, next year's depth chart would have been:
Augustin/Ntilikina/Mack
Ross/Dončić/Iwundu
Fournier/Simmons
Gordon/Isaac/some-vet
Vučević/Noah/Birch

ANd moving towards 2019/20: Ntilikina/Dončić/Isaac/Gordon/Vučević as the starting five.

Oh well.


..
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Re: Elf traded to Phoenix for second rounder 

Post#165 » by woosah » Fri Feb 9, 2018 2:49 pm

Audi wrote:Lol. Since when did it become acceptable to talk such trash about a 23 yr old who has shown steady improvement season to season?

"Here’s all you need to know: Scott Perry, now the GM of the New York Knicks who was Hennigan’s right-hand man in Orlando, wanted nothing to do with Payton at the trade deadline. Instead the Knicks made a deal for Denver Nuggets backup point guard Emmanuel Mudiay."

- Seriously. This is just sh-t journalism. What we ACTUALLY know is that Perry didn't want to give up Ntilikina to acquire Payton, which is the price we were asking for. Not that Payton is so terrible that he chose to go with Mudiay instead.

I swear, I've never seen a player shat on more than Elfrid after being traded. Even on XM today the false narrative that we chose Elfrid over Oladipo was being used to crap on the organization.

Yeah idk why it is that way and didn't know he was THAT disliked. I'm glad he was moved the more i read and hear.
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Re: Elf traded to Phoenix for second rounder 

Post#166 » by drsd » Fri Feb 9, 2018 2:50 pm

Audi wrote:I swear, I've never seen a player **** on more than Elfrid after being traded.


Frankly Orlandio is a worse team today than yesterday. The Payton trade was made only because management did not want to negotiate a new contract. That was flatly stated.

Stated another way, Gordon is going to break the bank, and there was no money left to also resign Payton.

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Re: Elf traded to Phoenix for second rounder 

Post#167 » by OrlandoDream » Fri Feb 9, 2018 2:54 pm

drsd wrote:
Audi wrote:I swear, I've never seen a player **** on more than Elfrid after being traded.


Frankly Orlandio is a worse team today than yesterday. The Payton trade was made only because management did not want to negotiate a new contract. That was flatly stated.

Stated another way, Gordon is going to break the bank, and there was no money left to also resign Payton.

..

We're pretty much the same if you ask me. DJ is not a long term option and he is a good bench pg at best. However Elfrid did very little to contribute to winning. His trade won't affect us that much. He is very easily replaced. Thank you for your loyalty EP but time to move on.
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Re: Elf traded to Phoenix for second rounder 

Post#168 » by OrlChamps2030 » Fri Feb 9, 2018 2:58 pm

Audi wrote:I swear, I've never seen a player shat on more than Elfrid after being traded. Even on XM today the false narrative that we chose Elfrid over Oladipo was being used to crap on the organization.


I’m not sure why you continue to deny this when Elfrid was clearly a factor in the decision to trade Oladipo. It was talked about at the time. Fournier was seen as cheaper and a better fit next to Payton. Hennigan tripled down on him. That’s not a false narrative.

Anyways, just realized yesterday, wouldn’t we have Phillys first round pick this year if it wasn’t for the Elfrid trade? Hennigan really put all his eggs in that basket
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Re: Elf traded to Phoenix for second rounder 

Post#169 » by Audi » Fri Feb 9, 2018 2:59 pm

Orange Ave. wrote:I hope we never "forget reasons" why we let Elfrid get away. So let's document it now. If Elfrid becomes league MVP, I will not feel bad about trading him yesterday for a second rounder BECAUSE:

He has led our team through it's worst 4 years in franchise history. His sample size has been huge, he has been given every opportunity and there is NO DATA that this management could hang its hat on to suggest that anything would be different with Elfrid in the future.

We could be dead wrong, but this is not a player we gave up on like Oladipo. Elfrid's market value being a 2nd rounder was not determined by our management, it was determined by Elfrid.


His "huge sample size" is like, just 50 games more than Oladipo when we let him go.

I guess you are another one of those who believe the PG has to be the "leader". Therefore, it was Elfrid who "led our team through it's worse 4 years". It couldn't be the established players who were already here when he joined and have remained thoughout the worst 4 years? Lol. But nah, it's all on him. All PG's are automatically the team's leaders. Ask MJ. Ask Kobe.

Both Oladipo and and Elfrid were traded away as 23 yo. Dipo took an additional year and experience with Russ to develop into what we see today. We absolutely 'gave up' on Elfrid, just like we "gave up" on Mario. Whether or not he becomes another Oladipo is irrelevant.
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Re: Elf traded to Phoenix for second rounder 

Post#170 » by MagicStarwipe » Fri Feb 9, 2018 3:00 pm

Audi wrote:Lol. Since when did it become acceptable to talk such trash about a 23 yr old who has shown steady improvement season to season?

"Here’s all you need to know: Scott Perry, now the GM of the New York Knicks who was Hennigan’s right-hand man in Orlando, wanted nothing to do with Payton at the trade deadline. Instead the Knicks made a deal for Denver Nuggets backup point guard Emmanuel Mudiay."

- Seriously. This is just sh-t journalism. What we ACTUALLY know is that Perry didn't want to give up Ntilikina to acquire Payton, which is the price we were asking for. Not that Payton is so terrible that he chose to go with Mudiay instead.

I swear, I've never seen a player shat on more than Elfrid after being traded. Even on XM today the false narrative that we chose Elfrid over Oladipo was being used to crap on the organization.


It's weird. And his haters take it so personally too. Like they DESPISE anybody that says anything good about him :lol: I've never been more hated in my life than I have been the past couple of years. It's crazy.
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Re: Elf traded to Phoenix for second rounder 

Post#171 » by fendilim » Fri Feb 9, 2018 3:15 pm

OrlChamps2030 wrote:
Audi wrote:I swear, I've never seen a player shat on more than Elfrid after being traded. Even on XM today the false narrative that we chose Elfrid over Oladipo was being used to crap on the organization.


I’m not sure why you continue to deny this when Elfrid was clearly a factor in the decision to trade Oladipo. It was talked about at the time. Fournier was seen as cheaper and a better fit next to Payton. Hennigan tripled down on him. That’s not a false narrative.

Anyways, just realized yesterday, wouldn’t we have Phillys first round pick this year if it wasn’t for the Elfrid trade? Hennigan really put all his eggs in that basket

and dont forget we would have had Saric too... :D
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Re: Elf traded to Phoenix for second rounder 

Post#172 » by OrlDave » Fri Feb 9, 2018 3:24 pm

DiplomaticMagic wrote:
OrlDave wrote:
DiplomaticMagic wrote:I'm just mad that I bought Elfrid's jersey this season! :banghead:

What was I thinking??


My parents renewed their Disney passes down at the Arena allowing me to get 2 basically free jerseys. I picked Isaac and Gordon as they were the only two i was confident with. Then the Gordon trade rumors surfaced lol.. but I'm good I think.


Do the jerseys at Amway have the Disney logo on them? If so, I gotta make another trip.


They do. You can pick from basically any of the "swingman" jersey, blue or white. Lot of Simmons and Fournier, but if you ask they can get you an Isaac or Gordon. Retail price, 119.00, so not a bad bonus for something you'd do anyway.
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Re: Elf traded to Phoenix for second rounder 

Post#173 » by drsd » Fri Feb 9, 2018 3:50 pm

OrlChamps2030 wrote:I’m not sure why you continue to deny this when Elfrid was clearly a factor in the decision to trade Oladipo. It was talked about at the time. Fournier was seen as cheaper and a better fit next to Payton. Hennigan tripled down on him. That’s not a false narrative.


I also believe he thought of Fournier as the overall better SG. That point is hard to judge this year with Fournier being out of position.

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Re: Elf traded to Phoenix for second rounder 

Post#174 » by Optimus_Steel » Fri Feb 9, 2018 3:55 pm

OrlChamps2030 wrote:
Audi wrote:I swear, I've never seen a player shat on more than Elfrid after being traded. Even on XM today the false narrative that we chose Elfrid over Oladipo was being used to crap on the organization.


I’m not sure why you continue to deny this when Elfrid was clearly a factor in the decision to trade Oladipo. It was talked about at the time. Fournier was seen as cheaper and a better fit next to Payton. Hennigan tripled down on him. That’s not a false narrative.

Anyways, just realized yesterday, wouldn’t we have Phillys first round pick this year if it wasn’t for the Elfrid trade? Hennigan really put all his eggs in that basket


Elfrid was part of the reason Dipo was traded. Not the only reason but his presence was a factor, denying that it did not is ridiculous.

Rob was enamored with Elfrid. Skiles quit early, again Elf was not the only reason, but he was a factor because Rob was enamored with Elf.

Also while we technically gave up the Philly pick, Philly was so bad for so long it would have been 2nd rounders for us, plus they still owed Miami a pick and they had priority over us. I remember thinking on draft night that this Elf kid better be good because we gave up assets to move up 2 spots. Hindsight it was a bad move.
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Re: Elf traded to Phoenix for second rounder 

Post#175 » by Magic#1 » Fri Feb 9, 2018 3:55 pm

Weltman basically said they didn't want to invest a significant contract in Elf and that they didn't want to lose him for nothing. Personally, I wish we had waited until we saw who we get in the draft and then let the market dictate Elf's value. If we get a Porter, Bagley, Ayton in the draft, we still have a hole at point guard and, to me, then matching a 16-18 million/year offer on Elf (just a guess), might make more sense. For a return of only a mid 2nd rounder, I would have taken the chance of losing EP for nothing. We could let him walk without much of a problem if we draft a replacement. But then again maybe we'll find the next Green, Boozer or Arenas and I'll eat my words.
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Re: Elf traded to Phoenix for second rounder 

Post#176 » by Audi » Fri Feb 9, 2018 4:00 pm

fendilim wrote:
OrlChamps2030 wrote:
Audi wrote:I swear, I've never seen a player shat on more than Elfrid after being traded. Even on XM today the false narrative that we chose Elfrid over Oladipo was being used to crap on the organization.


I’m not sure why you continue to deny this when Elfrid was clearly a factor in the decision to trade Oladipo. It was talked about at the time. Fournier was seen as cheaper and a better fit next to Payton. Hennigan tripled down on him. That’s not a false narrative.

Anyways, just realized yesterday, wouldn’t we have Phillys first round pick this year if it wasn’t for the Elfrid trade? Hennigan really put all his eggs in that basket

and dont forget we would have had Saric too... :D



Where, on here? In the media, who don't watch our games?

The point has been discussed in a thread here that statistically, the Payton/Dipo duo was much better than the Payton/Fournier duo. But lets pretend that none of that was taken into account for a minute. If the narrative goes, as you say, Fournier was the cheaper, better fit...why isn't the narrative that we chose the cheaper Fournier (who was playing quite well at the time) over Oladipo, and thus, everyone pile the crap on the Frenchie?
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Re: Elf traded to Phoenix for second rounder 

Post#177 » by Audi » Fri Feb 9, 2018 4:05 pm

Optimus_Steel wrote:
OrlChamps2030 wrote:
Audi wrote:I swear, I've never seen a player shat on more than Elfrid after being traded. Even on XM today the false narrative that we chose Elfrid over Oladipo was being used to crap on the organization.


I’m not sure why you continue to deny this when Elfrid was clearly a factor in the decision to trade Oladipo. It was talked about at the time. Fournier was seen as cheaper and a better fit next to Payton. Hennigan tripled down on him. That’s not a false narrative.

Anyways, just realized yesterday, wouldn’t we have Phillys first round pick this year if it wasn’t for the Elfrid trade? Hennigan really put all his eggs in that basket


Elfrid was part of the reason Dipo was traded. Not the only reason but his presence was a factor, denying that it did not is ridiculous.

Rob was enamored with Elfrid. Skiles quit early, again Elf was not the only reason, but he was a factor because Rob was enamored with Elf.

Also while we technically gave up the Philly pick, Philly was so bad for so long it would have been 2nd rounders for us, plus they still owed Miami a pick and they had priority over us. I remember thinking on draft night that this Elf kid better be good because we gave up assets to move up 2 spots. Hindsight it was a bad move.


Elf's presence was only ever in existence because Henny realized he couldn't mold Dipo into Westbrook 2.0 at PG. So he picked AG as BPA over Dipo's buddy Exum, and the hole at PG got exploited by Philly.

Remember, about this time Henny was obsessed with and trying to court Porzingis from overseas. He was likely thinking:
(True PG)
Dipo
Fournier/Tobes/(Afflalo? can't remember)
(Porzingis)
Vuc
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Re: Elf traded to Phoenix for second rounder 

Post#178 » by fendilim » Fri Feb 9, 2018 4:08 pm

Audi wrote:
fendilim wrote:
OrlChamps2030 wrote:
I’m not sure why you continue to deny this when Elfrid was clearly a factor in the decision to trade Oladipo. It was talked about at the time. Fournier was seen as cheaper and a better fit next to Payton. Hennigan tripled down on him. That’s not a false narrative.

Anyways, just realized yesterday, wouldn’t we have Phillys first round pick this year if it wasn’t for the Elfrid trade? Hennigan really put all his eggs in that basket

and dont forget we would have had Saric too... :D



Where, on here? In the media, who don't watch our games?

The point has been discussed in a thread here that statistically, the Payton/Dipo duo was much better than the Payton/Fournier duo. But lets pretend that none of that was taken into account for a minute. If the narrative goes, as you say, Fournier was the cheaper, better fit...why isn't the narrative that we chose the cheaper Fournier (who was playing quite well at the time) over Oladipo, and thus, everyone pile the crap on the Frenchie?
Actually it was Payton that's why the argument of Evan VS Ola happened.
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Re: Elf traded to Phoenix for second rounder 

Post#179 » by MartinsIzAfraud » Fri Feb 9, 2018 4:13 pm

Lets flip this... Would people be just as mad if we let him walk in RFA??
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Re: Elf traded to Phoenix for second rounder 

Post#180 » by Audi » Fri Feb 9, 2018 4:18 pm

MartinsIzAfraud wrote:Lets flip this... Would people be just as mad if we let him walk in RFA??


Depends on who we grab in the draft and how much the offer sheet he eventually signed for was.
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