Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon

[ezzzp]

And while the stats are also true, nobody can say with a straight face that when your guards are Jerian Grant and Jonathon Simmons you are being given a fair chance when the ball isn't coming your way after doing "the right thing" to get open.

Actually...here are the lineups he played with our best PG, DJ Augustin. These lineups don't have Grant or Simmons in them. They also don't include Vucevic so that there is no discrepancy about him playing out of position or in two C lineups.



His presence produced terrible results in 39 out of 48 minutes he was on the floor with starters and top rotation guys. I think it is safe to say that he was bad, regardless of who he was on the floor with.

[Skin]

And while the stats are also true, nobody can say with a straight face that when your guards are Jerian Grant and Jonathon Simmons you are being given a fair chance when the ball isn't coming your way after doing "the right thing" to get open.

Actually...here are the lineups he played with our best PG, DJ Augustin. These lineups don't have Grant or Simmons in them. They also don't include Vucevic so that there is no discrepancy about him playing out of position or in two C lineups.



His presence produced terrible results in 39 out of 48 minutes he was on the floor with starters and top rotation guys. I think it is safe to say that he was bad, regardless of who he was on the floor with.

This has nothing to do with projecting his future and guys suggesting that Bamba's net rtg would improve with better players around him... specifically a better PG.

I swear if every developing rookie was crucified the way ezzzp and pepe crucify Bamba based on 48 minutes of play...

[Edrock]

it's too bad the Magic couldn't come up with a better offer than that crap salad Utah gave MEM for Conley... Would a been a perfect bridge PG while Fultz matured...

[SOUL]

That's exactly my point though. He didn't play well, but I'm saying there IS no help when 90% of your lineup is with backup guards that can't pass.. and I wouldn't say DJ or Fournier is much of an upgrade in the passing department either. It can be both that he struggled and that he did not have an ideal situation around him which is fine because it's only his rookie year and he needs to learn to play in whatever sort of lineups.

[j-ragg]

I feel like we all agree Bamba’s rookie year wasn’t good by any means. I think a huge part of that was his body. He was too weak to catch the ball in traffic without getting it slapped away. He couldn’t post anyone up, I don’t think it’s because he doesn’t care, he can’t move anyone. Robin Lopez and Mason Plumlee went bbq chicken on him. I think with an improved body though will yield much better results even if his skill level didn’t change (which I’d expect it to). So hopefully he does become Swole Bamba.

[Skin]

:cry: it's too bad the Magic couldn't come up with a better offer than that crap salad Utah gave MEM for Conley... Would a been a perfect bridge PG while Fultz matured...

What would your package have been?

[ezzzp]

And while the stats are also true, nobody can say with a straight face that when your guards are Jerian Grant and Jonathon Simmons you are being given a fair chance when the ball isn't coming your way after doing "the right thing" to get open.

Actually...here are the lineups he played with our best PG, DJ Augustin. These lineups don't have Grant or Simmons in them. They also don't include Vucevic so that there is no discrepancy about him playing out of position or in two C lineups.



His presence produced terrible results in 39 out of 48 minutes he was on the floor with starters and top rotation guys. I think it is safe to say that he was bad, regardless of who he was on the floor with.

This has nothing to do with projecting his future and guys suggesting that Bamba's net rtg would improve with better players around him... specifically a better PG.

I swear if every developing rookie was crucified the way ezzzp and pepe crucify Bamba based on 48 minutes of play...

Yes it does. He sucked with bench, he sucked with starters. Period.

Past performance hints at immediate future performance.

On top of that, he suffered a stress fracture from his body not being able to handle bench minutes. That also gives insight into immediate future performance.

Challenging its young players to earn their minutes and play to win is how the best player development franchises groom their players. I like Bamba a lot, I just don't think accelerating his development just because of where he was picked is a legitimate reason to do it. He needs time, no reason to rush him.

Just because you have this weird infatuation with watching losing basketball being played by all under 23 year olds doesn't mean that others do.

[Xatticus]

People who want Bamba to start care more about being right on internet than his health, or team.
Guy played 18 mpg and had to be DNPed from half of a season due fracture in leg, non conctact injury due overuse.

It's really not likely to be his 15 minutes of basketball per night that caused his injury. Stress fractures are from overuse of fatigued muscles. The muscles tire and the bones absorb more of the stress. I got a stress fracture in my leg from running 30 miles per week. I would expect that the training staff had to reevaluate his fitness program. It could also be due in part to poor mechanics.

The Q&A on Fultz with a medical professional that specializes in Neurology and Trauma in speaking about how Fultz TOS started, referred to Bamba's stress fractures and said they were due to stress load on the body, said he just wasn't ready for so much so soon.

And it was your inference that he was referring to the 766 minutes of NBA basketball that Bamba played last year?

He played 30 minutes a night for Texas.

The conditioning program they had Bamba on is the most likely culprit. Nobody's muscles get fatigued by 15 minutes of basketball; especially when they are allegedly spending most of it camping behind the 3-point line.

Muscles function as shock absorbers for the skeletal system. They lose their effectiveness as they fatigue. This is why pitch counts are used in MLB.

[SOUL]

Also that's a VERY small sample size.. and if I remember correctly, an away game where most of the team struggled badly. Obviously people aren't saying Bamba would've played like Vuc this season with starters. Over the course of the year however, I think he would've played better. Like if you are denying that playing with Jerian Grant and Jonathon Simmons is a result of Bamba alone (which, again, he gets leeway because he's a rookie) and not because of a guy we traded and another guy we had to replace by somebody that wasn't in the league.. then you obviously have some sort of bias.

[SOUL]

Just really tired of defending rookies, and then the last years when Vuc's numbers dipped, and I put up stats showing how Vuc NEEDED to get closer to the basket and shoot threes or get to the line and stop ONLY shooting mid range, that was shot down with "He's putting up numbers!" despite being inefficient and us being a lottery team yet again. Now you see how Clifford telling him to do exactly that actually helped the team. Can't be biased with numbers and only believe in them when they work in the player you like's favor.

[bargnanimvp]

Just really tired of defending rookies, and then the last years when Vuc's numbers dipped, and I put up stats showing how Vuc NEEDED to get closer to the basket and shoot threes or get to the line and stop ONLY shooting mid range, that was shot down with "He's putting up numbers!" despite being inefficient and us being a lottery team yet again. Now you see how Clifford telling him to do exactly that actually helped the team. Can't be biased with numbers and only believe in them when they work in the player you like's favor.

WHo shot you down for that? i thought it was universal that people bitched about vuc taking too much mid range instead of stepping out to the 3 or getting inside. every game thread from the last few seasons had multiple people complaining for that.

[bargnanimvp]

It's really not likely to be his 15 minutes of basketball per night that caused his injury. Stress fractures are from overuse of fatigued muscles. The muscles tire and the bones absorb more of the stress. I got a stress fracture in my leg from running 30 miles per week. I would expect that the training staff had to reevaluate his fitness program. It could also be due in part to poor mechanics.

The Q&A on Fultz with a medical professional that specializes in Neurology and Trauma in speaking about how Fultz TOS started, referred to Bamba's stress fractures and said they were due to stress load on the body, said he just wasn't ready for so much so soon.

And it was your inference that he was referring to the 766 minutes of NBA basketball that Bamba played last year?

He played 30 minutes a night for Texas.

The conditioning program they had Bamba on is the most likely culprit. Nobody's muscles get fatigued by 15 minutes of basketball; especially when they are allegedly spending most of it camping behind the 3-point line.

Muscles function as shock absorbers for the skeletal system. They lose their effectiveness as they fatigue. This is why pitch counts are used in MLB.

Stress fractures aren't muscle function, it's too much load on the bones. The solution in other sports that i follow is to cut over all weight and try to just build muscle in the core or region you actually need it to perform your job. Either that or rework whatever motion is causing it. For a big man who is already skinny that's a worry.

[Skin]

Actually...here are the lineups he played with our best PG, DJ Augustin. These lineups don't have Grant or Simmons in them. They also don't include Vucevic so that there is no discrepancy about him playing out of position or in two C lineups.



His presence produced terrible results in 39 out of 48 minutes he was on the floor with starters and top rotation guys. I think it is safe to say that he was bad, regardless of who he was on the floor with.

This has nothing to do with projecting his future and guys suggesting that Bamba's net rtg would improve with better players around him... specifically a better PG.

I swear if every developing rookie was crucified the way ezzzp and pepe crucify Bamba based on 48 minutes of play...

Yes it does. He sucked with bench, he sucked with starters. Period.

Past performance hints at immediate future performance.

On top of that, he suffered a stress fracture from his body not being able to handle bench minutes. That also gives insight into immediate future performance.

Challenging its young players to earn their minutes and play to win is how the best player development franchises groom their players.

Just because you have this weird infatuation with watching losing basketball being played by all under 23 year olds doesn't mean that others do.

You have a weird infatuation with incorrectly interpreting what I say so that it matches what you want me to believe.

I just don't want to overpay players who will keep us in cap purgatory and not help us become true contenders.

I'm not pleased with creating a team who maxes out as a late lottery or early playoff exit team. Rather preserve cap flexibility and develop youth.

Ie. I would rather sign Horford for 3 years than Vuc for 4 or 5... and I've also said that I would rather sign Vuc for big dollars at 2 years, 3 at the most, rather than sign him long term for 4 or 5 years. I just don't believe he would take it a short term deal. I know that goes against what you want me to believe so it doesn't stick in your head... so whatevers.

[SOUL]

Just really tired of defending rookies, and then the last years when Vuc's numbers dipped, and I put up stats showing how Vuc NEEDED to get closer to the basket and shoot threes or get to the line and stop ONLY shooting mid range, that was shot down with "He's putting up numbers!" despite being inefficient and us being a lottery team yet again. Now you see how Clifford telling him to do exactly that actually helped the team. Can't be biased with numbers and only believe in them when they work in the player you like's favor.

WHo shot you down for that? i thought it was universal that people bitched about vuc taking too much mid range instead of stepping out to the 3 or getting inside. every game thread from the last few seasons had multiple people complaining for that.

It was a loud vocal minority but they were definitely there. Pages of back and forth about it lol. I was just amazed that suggesting something that would make a player more efficient was continually being shot down like the guy was perfect because he got double doubles.

The Vuc we saw this year was the one I anticipated after his first few seasons. Thought it was just natural progression.. and I see most people acknowledging that Bamba was pretty bad this year (but showed flashes), so I'm not sure what debates are even going on anymore if people can't say it was not helpful to play with the guards he played with since anybody with two eyes can see that. It's part of why he sucked, not the entire reason since he has like 75% of the onus on himself to make things happen.. but as a big it's not like you are the one initiating the play unless you're Jokic.

[ezzzp]

It's really not likely to be his 15 minutes of basketball per night that caused his injury. Stress fractures are from overuse of fatigued muscles. The muscles tire and the bones absorb more of the stress. I got a stress fracture in my leg from running 30 miles per week. I would expect that the training staff had to reevaluate his fitness program. It could also be due in part to poor mechanics.

The Q&A on Fultz with a medical professional that specializes in Neurology and Trauma in speaking about how Fultz TOS started, referred to Bamba's stress fractures and said they were due to stress load on the body, said he just wasn't ready for so much so soon.

And it was your inference that he was referring to the 766 minutes of NBA basketball that Bamba played last year?

He played 30 minutes a night for Texas.

The conditioning program they had Bamba on is the most likely culprit. Nobody's muscles get fatigued by 15 minutes of basketball; especially when they are allegedly spending most of it camping behind the 3-point line.

Muscles function as shock absorbers for the skeletal system. They lose their effectiveness as they fatigue. This is why pitch counts are used in MLB.

No, I didn't infer anything. That's from a Q&A I found and posted here. He mentioned Bamba because he was discussing players bodies not being ready in context of Fultz putting too much stress on his body.

Also, NCAA season is 35 games in similar time span as NBA 82 game season. They have a way longer rest period in between games, plus they are limited to 20hr a week bb activities including games. Bamba got injured after 47 NBA games.

[ezzzp]

You have a weird infatuation with incorrectly interpreting what I say so that it matches what you want me to believe.

I just don't want to overpay players who will keep us in cap purgatory and not help us become true contenders.

I'm not pleased with creating a team who maxes out as a late lottery or early playoff exit team. Rather preserve cap flexibility and develop youth.

Ie. I would rather sign Horford for 3 years than Vuc for 4 or 5... and I've also said that I would rather sign Vuc for big dollars at 2 years, 3 at the most, rather than sign him long term for 4 or 5 years. I just don't believe he would take it a short term deal. I know that goes against what you want me to believe so it doesn't stick in your head... so whatevers.

Wrong, I just call out your bias and you try to spin out of it, constantly back tracking and having convenient amnesia.

You are constantly spouting off anti-Vucevic hate, stop acting like you don't and are just misunderstood.

I have showed you cap projections that totally debunk your so called "cap purgatory" theory for the Magic. You just blow them off and pretend they don't exist.

You don't know what you want because every great team has to go through good for multiple seasons...only way to avoid that is to be a a major NBA market/destination city like LA that always has FA options or you bottom out and play the tank Russian roulette. Being a first round team is a stage, not an endpoint. You are so scared of tread milling in the middle, that you don't even realize that what you propose is the exact same tread mill scenario except you are doing it as a bottom feeder.

[basketballRob]

People who want Bamba to start care more about being right on internet than his health, or team.
Guy played 18 mpg and had to be DNPed from half of a season due fracture in leg, non conctact injury due overuse.

Well we can speculate what it was due too. I think he needs to build more muscle in his legs or it could be the way he runs who knows.

Luckily it's usually not a reoccurring injury.

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[basketballRob]

People who want Bamba to start care more about being right on internet than his health, or team.
Guy played 18 mpg and had to be DNPed from half of a season due fracture in leg, non conctact injury due overuse.

It's really not likely to be his 15 minutes of basketball per night that caused his injury. Stress fractures are from overuse of fatigued muscles. The muscles tire and the bones absorb more of the stress. I got a stress fracture in my leg from running 30 miles per week. I would expect that the training staff had to reevaluate his fitness program. It could also be due in part to poor mechanics.

Did you remember his conditioning during last summer league ? Guy was grasping for air after 10 min. I think lot of his " motor " issues are actually result of his poor conditioning. Maybe he simply doesn't have capacity to do aerobic exercise longer.



I feel like athletic prime of most of nba players , due over-reliance on athletics is moved from 29-31 to 26-28. I feel like overtraining is problem with lot of new athletes as lot of pro conditioning coaches are still stuck in their mid 90s tough love, "balls to the wall every day" crap.
When i heared that at world cup, after 120 min game, players had conditioning traning next day i wanted to punch my tv.

Same thing you said about Isaac and he held up pretty good.

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[basketballRob]

Sorry, but I’m not going to put much emphasis into Bambas net rating when the majority of his minutes were played next to Grant, Simmons, and Iwundu. Two of those three aren’t NBA rotation level players and Wes was pretty borderline until MCW came in and he started to produce.

I know people want to completely discredit the encouraging advanced stats he put up last year because of his net rating, but I’m not going to. I think if he can continue to add muscle this summer and we can get him on the floor for 20+ minutes a night he will start to show signs and produce for us next year.

Again, I’m not advocating for him to start, I still think that should be Birch, but I’m not giving up on him and not going to already say that he will be one of the worse rotational players next year. That bench needs major upgrades, and he needs to add on size.

19- 28 with Bamba.
23-12 without him

I don't really think that talking about net rating of rookie means a lot, but it's indicator of his impact. But his main issue stands his inability to play longer due poor conditioning ( and injury ofc).

Well yeah that was the easiest part of the schedule and most projected us to win that many games.

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[Edrock]

What would your package have been?

Something around Dj, Fournier, and #16