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Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!!

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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1601 » by Knightro » Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:14 am

ezzzp wrote:In fact, the information that is publicly available, the Magic's promise to Graham, points to the opposite of what you are trying to spin.


For the record, there's nothing that makes this "publicly available" information actually factual.

We *think* that it's the case, but at the end of the day it's still a rumor. Weltman and Hammond certainly didn't confirm it and no one on this board actually had access to the Magic's draft board as you've repeatedly said.

And if that rumor actually *is* true and Graham was the guy that the Magic really wanted above all else, then shame on the front office for not doing everything they could do to ensure they got the guy they really wanted.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1602 » by ezzzp » Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:29 am

MoMM wrote:
ezzzp wrote:The development of that prototype has produced many of the elite two-way players in the NBA right now. On top of that, that prototype also produces a lot of quality 3-D players.

Examples with 2nd round picks?


off the top of my head: Josh Richardson, Khris Middelton, Draymond Green, Danny Green ....
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1603 » by ezzzp » Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:39 am

MagicMatic wrote:
You have the same amount of info we all do. You just choose to accept absolutely everything the FO does and chooses to tell you. Propaganda right? :wink:

There is enough information to know what moves were plausible in easily maneuverable 2nd round draft situations. They claim to promise a player and either didn’t take him due to their inactivity, or they were outbid and chose not to act. So which is it? Either way the FO let the draft order dictate their decisions for the duration of their tenure in Orlando. If not, why even make a statement in the first place?

How is that spin? It’s basically how they’ve handled the draft... They haven’t made moves up or strategically back in the same draft. They’ve either folded or made a selection.


That's exactly why my point is and has been that nobody knows what the FO did or didn't do. To accuse the FO of not doing something is just flat out ridiculous as nobody except those on the inside know...and you are not one of them.

It takes two teams to make a trade. Just because the Magic would have wanted to make a trade doesn't mean the other team has to be willing to do it. Pushing for it is exactly how horrible lopsided trades happen....see the Elfrid Payton draft day trade for that foolish approach.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1604 » by ezzzp » Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:43 am

Knightro wrote:
ezzzp wrote:In fact, the information that is publicly available, the Magic's promise to Graham, points to the opposite of what you are trying to spin.


For the record, there's nothing that makes this "publicly available" information actually factual.

We *think* that it's the case, but at the end of the day it's still a rumor. Weltman and Hammond certainly didn't confirm it and no one on this board actually had access to the Magic's draft board as you've repeatedly said.

And if that rumor actually *is* true and Graham was the guy that the Magic really wanted above all else, then shame on the front office for not doing everything they could do to ensure they got the guy they really wanted.


If that rumor is true, then it the logic is that they likely did pursue trades.

It takes two teams to make a trade. Just because the Magic wanted to, doesn't mean that the other team has to...and to push it is exactly how terrible lopsided trades happen...see the Elfrid Payton draft trade for how that type of desperate negotiation works.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1605 » by VFX » Thu Nov 14, 2019 7:05 am

ezzzp wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
You have the same amount of info we all do. You just choose to accept absolutely everything the FO does and chooses to tell you. Propaganda right? :wink:

There is enough information to know what moves were plausible in easily maneuverable 2nd round draft situations. They claim to promise a player and either didn’t take him due to their inactivity, or they were outbid and chose not to act. So which is it? Either way the FO let the draft order dictate their decisions for the duration of their tenure in Orlando. If not, why even make a statement in the first place?

How is that spin? It’s basically how they’ve handled the draft... They haven’t made moves up or strategically back in the same draft. They’ve either folded or made a selection.


That's exactly why my point is and has been that nobody knows what the FO did or didn't do. To accuse the FO of not doing something is just flat out ridiculous as nobody except those on the inside know...and you are not one of them.

It takes two teams to make a trade. Just because the Magic would have wanted to make a trade doesn't mean the other team has to be willing to do it. Pushing for it is exactly how horrible lopsided trades happen....see the Elfrid Payton draft day trade for that foolish approach.


Nor do I claim to know exactly what the FO is planning. It just appears they lack one entirely.

Of course it takes two teams to make a trade. You make it sound like these 2nd round transactions are completely impossible to pull off. The argument is that they haven’t made moves in the draft other than folding the pick, trading it away multiple years down the road, or making a BPA selection based on length. That’s the criticism being made when Orlando clearly lacks talent in specific areas.

This is splitting hairs at this point. However, the rumors of DeRozen interest appears like desperation for failing to construct a balanced roster. They wouldn’t have to make a desperation move if they just made better selections, instead of building a roster of of overlapping skill sets.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1606 » by ezzzp » Thu Nov 14, 2019 7:34 am

MagicMatic wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
You have the same amount of info we all do. You just choose to accept absolutely everything the FO does and chooses to tell you. Propaganda right? :wink:

There is enough information to know what moves were plausible in easily maneuverable 2nd round draft situations. They claim to promise a player and either didn’t take him due to their inactivity, or they were outbid and chose not to act. So which is it? Either way the FO let the draft order dictate their decisions for the duration of their tenure in Orlando. If not, why even make a statement in the first place?

How is that spin? It’s basically how they’ve handled the draft... They haven’t made moves up or strategically back in the same draft. They’ve either folded or made a selection.


That's exactly why my point is and has been that nobody knows what the FO did or didn't do. To accuse the FO of not doing something is just flat out ridiculous as nobody except those on the inside know...and you are not one of them.

It takes two teams to make a trade. Just because the Magic would have wanted to make a trade doesn't mean the other team has to be willing to do it. Pushing for it is exactly how horrible lopsided trades happen....see the Elfrid Payton draft day trade for that foolish approach.


Nor do I claim to know exactly what the FO is planning. It just appears they lack one entirely.

Of course it takes two teams to make a trade. You make it sound like these 2nd round transactions are completely impossible to pull off. The argument is that they haven’t made moves in the draft other than folding the pick, trading it away multiple years down the road, or making a BPA selection based on length. That’s the criticism being made when Orlando clearly lacks talent in specific areas.

This is splitting hairs at this point. However, the rumors of DeRozen interest appears like desperation for failing to construct a balanced roster. They wouldn’t have to make a desperation move if they just made better selections, instead of building a roster of of overlapping skill sets.


They have a plan, its pretty clear...you just refuse to accept it. I have shown it to you numerous times and you still won't accept it despite it playing out exactly how I've laid it out for you since early last summer.

Uh, they have made moves in the draft. They traded and maneuvered picks to maintain them as assets until they found a way to convert them into something real...Markelle Fultz. Just because some only see the video game version of "moves," doesn't mean that the FO isn't making very savvy asset maneuvers.

That they are scouring the league for a trade is not surprising at all, and its definitely not a sign of desperation. Its pretty hilarious that you are trying to spin it as that when I've told you a 1000 times since the summer that would be their strategy. It looked pretty clear to me that the FO saw the obvious options in free agency: that a trade would give them a way better long term solution than any band aid fix they could acquire with the MLE.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1607 » by pepe1991 » Thu Nov 14, 2019 7:36 am

Bogdan Bogdanovic should be Magic trade target.

In last 3 games :
22 ppg
6 apg
3 apg
14 threes made
Life is what happens when you're busy making other plans. -John Lennon
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1608 » by Knightro » Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:26 am

pepe1991 wrote:Bogdan Bogdanovic should be Magic trade target.

In last 3 games :
22 ppg
6 apg
3 apg
14 threes made


I’d love to get him. Just don’t know what the Magic have the Kings might want.

They have Bagley, so I don’t know if Gordon would be pf much interest.

Maybe something centered (no pun intended) around Bamba?
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1609 » by Xatticus » Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:07 pm

ezzzp wrote:
Knightro wrote:
ezzzp wrote:In fact, the information that is publicly available, the Magic's promise to Graham, points to the opposite of what you are trying to spin.


For the record, there's nothing that makes this "publicly available" information actually factual.

We *think* that it's the case, but at the end of the day it's still a rumor. Weltman and Hammond certainly didn't confirm it and no one on this board actually had access to the Magic's draft board as you've repeatedly said.

And if that rumor actually *is* true and Graham was the guy that the Magic really wanted above all else, then shame on the front office for not doing everything they could do to ensure they got the guy they really wanted.


If that rumor is true, then it the logic is that they likely did pursue trades.

It takes two teams to make a trade. Just because the Magic wanted to, doesn't mean that the other team has to...and to push it is exactly how terrible lopsided trades happen...see the Elfrid Payton draft trade for how that type of desperate negotiation works.


I don't know if the Graham rumor is true or not. I don't really care. I don't know why you would promise someone that you are going to draft them in the second round, especially a senior. It's not like he is going to withdraw from the draft if he doesn't get a promise. But you can't really argue that the pick wasn't available given that Charlotte acquired it via trade.

It's really obvious to me that our front office doesn't value second-round talent given how they have punted and dumped second-round picks. We had another pick just a few spots later that we punted for a future pick before dumping that future pick.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1610 » by Xatticus » Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:22 pm

pepe1991 wrote:Bogdan Bogdanovic should be Magic trade target.

In last 3 games :
22 ppg
6 apg
3 apg
14 threes made


I'm not a fan. He is really similar to Fournier. He is a better facilitator, but I dislike him for the same reasons I dislike Fournier. He gets his points from the same actions that Fournier does. He is cheaper than Fournier at the moment, but that will change soon. He wants to start and he wants to get paid. He can run the pick-and-roll a bit, but he is a negative on defense, he has a miniscule FTr, and he has never been an efficient scorer.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1611 » by pepe1991 » Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:36 pm

Xatticus wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:Bogdan Bogdanovic should be Magic trade target.

In last 3 games :
22 ppg
6 apg
3 apg
14 threes made


I'm not a fan. He is really similar to Fournier. He is a better facilitator, but I dislike him for the same reasons I dislike Fournier. He gets his points from the same actions that Fournier does. He is cheaper than Fournier at the moment, but that will change soon. He wants to start and he wants to get paid. He can run the pick-and-roll a bit, but he is a negative on defense, he has a miniscule FTr, and he has never been an efficient scorer.


Every player is negative on defense on Kings since they don't play one. They just run.
His points per possession in pick&roll plays as handler this year is 0,85, that's good. His eFG% if 53% ( same tear as Irving and Bradely Beal right now).

Evan was never Magic "Problem" , Magic main problem is how they have to use him.
Even this year Evan is one of most effective Magic players, shooting 38% for 3 and having 55% eFG (59% TS).
Life is what happens when you're busy making other plans. -John Lennon
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1612 » by MartinsIzAfraud » Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:57 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
Xatticus wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:Bogdan Bogdanovic should be Magic trade target.

In last 3 games :
22 ppg
6 apg
3 apg
14 threes made


I'm not a fan. He is really similar to Fournier. He is a better facilitator, but I dislike him for the same reasons I dislike Fournier. He gets his points from the same actions that Fournier does. He is cheaper than Fournier at the moment, but that will change soon. He wants to start and he wants to get paid. He can run the pick-and-roll a bit, but he is a negative on defense, he has a miniscule FTr, and he has never been an efficient scorer.


Every player is negative on defense on Kings since they don't play one. They just run.
His points per possession in pick&roll plays as handler this year is 0,85, that's good. His eFG% if 53% ( same tear as Irving and Bradely Beal right now).

Evan was never Magic "Problem" , Magic main problem is how they have to use him.
Even this year Evan is one of most effective Magic players, shooting 38% for 3 and having 55% eFG (59% TS).


you think it's a coincidence that our offense started looking better when we got steals rebounds and actually pushed the pace up the court instead of slowly moving lol
A scoring guard.. never heard of one. :roll:
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1613 » by Knightro » Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:00 pm

Xatticus wrote:I'm not a fan. He is really similar to Fournier. He is a better facilitator, but I dislike him for the same reasons I dislike Fournier. He gets his points from the same actions that Fournier does. He is cheaper than Fournier at the moment, but that will change soon. He wants to start and he wants to get paid. He can run the pick-and-roll a bit, but he is a negative on defense, he has a miniscule FTr, and he has never been an efficient scorer.


Interesting points here. He's definitely been a negative on defense all three years of his career and I wouldn't expect that to change too much.

What the Magic or anyone else looking to trade for him would need to determine if what he's done over the first 10 games of this year (massive increases in 3PT rate and FT rate leading to a career best OBPM) is what he's going to be moving forward or if he'll regress back to what he was the first two years of his career.

If he's a 0.5 OBPM guy, then I'd agree that he's not worth trading for with his lack of defense.

The other thing worth noting is that Bogdanović is already 27 and is actually a few weeks older than Fournier, so it's debatable how much untapped potential he really has left.

All that said... if Bogdanović really is going to be a +3.0 OBPM guy moving forward, then the narrative changes IMO.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1614 » by MoMM » Thu Nov 14, 2019 2:22 pm

ezzzp wrote:
MoMM wrote:
ezzzp wrote:The development of that prototype has produced many of the elite two-way players in the NBA right now. On top of that, that prototype also produces a lot of quality 3-D players.

Examples with 2nd round picks?


off the top of my head: Josh Richardson, Khris Middelton, Draymond Green, Danny Green ....

I don't see any elite two-way player in this list.

Also 4 players in more than 10 years isn't that good and I wouldn't consider Draymond a 3-D wing player.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1615 » by VFX » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:09 pm

ezzzp wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
That's exactly why my point is and has been that nobody knows what the FO did or didn't do. To accuse the FO of not doing something is just flat out ridiculous as nobody except those on the inside know...and you are not one of them.

It takes two teams to make a trade. Just because the Magic would have wanted to make a trade doesn't mean the other team has to be willing to do it. Pushing for it is exactly how horrible lopsided trades happen....see the Elfrid Payton draft day trade for that foolish approach.


Nor do I claim to know exactly what the FO is planning. It just appears they lack one entirely.

Of course it takes two teams to make a trade. You make it sound like these 2nd round transactions are completely impossible to pull off. The argument is that they haven’t made moves in the draft other than folding the pick, trading it away multiple years down the road, or making a BPA selection based on length. That’s the criticism being made when Orlando clearly lacks talent in specific areas.

This is splitting hairs at this point. However, the rumors of DeRozen interest appears like desperation for failing to construct a balanced roster. They wouldn’t have to make a desperation move if they just made better selections, instead of building a roster of of overlapping skill sets.


They have a plan, its pretty clear...you just refuse to accept it. I have shown it to you numerous times and you still won't accept it despite it playing out exactly how I've laid it out for you since early last summer.

Uh, they have made moves in the draft. They traded and maneuvered picks to maintain them as assets until they found a way to convert them into something real...Markelle Fultz. Just because some only see the video game version of "moves," doesn't mean that the FO isn't making very savvy asset maneuvers.

That they are scouring the league for a trade is not surprising at all, and its definitely not a sign of desperation. Its pretty hilarious that you are trying to spin it as that when I've told you a 1000 times since the summer that would be their strategy. It looked pretty clear to me that the FO saw the obvious options in free agency: that a trade would give them a way better long term solution than any band aid fix they could acquire with the MLE.


What’s that? Keep Hennigans roster that got him fired, sans Elfrid Payton, at all costs and continue to find the second coming of Giannis based on drafting length metrics? I guess that’s a plan.

I think you are confused about the term IN the draft. They haven’t made moves IN the draft. You keep claiming the Fultz trade. That’s not being aggressive during the draft, which was the whole argument. Say what you want about the EP trade IN the draft, Hennigan got his guy that he believed in and was willing to fall on the sword for him.

Why does making minor 2nd round draft moves/selections come off as “video game” logic to you? Is that just another way of dodging the fact they are never aggressive IN drafts at all? Being mad we didn’t move up to get Doncic is video game logic. Talking about 2nd round moves isn’t.

Yeah, I’m not talking about “last summer” in my statement. I’m talking about since they’ve taken control. You know, “evaluation” year and all. Yeah, of course they were going to make trades since the summer... None of the moves they’ve made have addressed any issues whatsoever outside of acquiring Fultz for pennies on the dollar. I concede that was a decent move, but it wasn’t made during the draft.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1616 » by Def Swami » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:17 pm

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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1617 » by Knightro » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:22 pm

3 players adding points offensively. 6 players saving points defensively.

Sounds about right.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1618 » by rcklsscognition » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:24 pm

Pace in Wins: 98.63
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1619 » by VFX » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:29 pm

Knightro wrote:3 players adding points offensively. 6 players saving points defensively.

Sounds about right.


Biggest takeaways-

Isaac is a monster.
Aminu and Ross appear to be bad acquisitions / overpays based on the early season data.
Vuc does Vuc things.
Bamba has a long way to go given the small sample size.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!! 

Post#1620 » by Def Swami » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:57 pm

omg someone please send help
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