Markelle Fultz

[fendilim]

hoping somebody in year 7 of being professional adds things to his game that he never had belong in same category of BS like hoping Howard learns post moves from Hakeem just because he had couple of workouts with him.

it's waste of time.

You will either be okey what Fultz is and has been for past 6 years, or won't.

But one thing 100% won't happen. He 100% won't become "new " player in year seven, after spending 15 years playing basketball that molded him in player he was all the way up until last regular season game, 150-180 days ago.

Summer workouts aren't transformation chambers. Life isn't video game.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/markelle-fultz-1.html

I won't ever say "never"... Washington Fultz before the Debilitating TOS syndrome and a few injuries to start his career.... would also suggest otherwise. There was a reason why he was the #1 pick in the 2017 draft.... and we all know the circumstances that have messed with his progress.

This is the healthiest he's been in forever.... and that's why many of us want to see what he can be before making any decisions. There should be no "never" with him... as letting him go or simply trading him before seeing would be a poor talent management move by the front office.

Yep... i would love to see him shooting 3's like everyone else... and personally have the patience to give him that opportunity. but as long as people use that as the only measure stick for whether or not he fits and overlooks the good that he does.... and the successes that he helps bring.... then people will always say "We just need a shooter"... " #ShooterMakesUsBetter "

needless to say.... the team could be less successful too if all they did was swap him for a fred vanvleet like so many people wanted. There are so many variables that are necessary to make the team successful..... so if the front office sees what others don't... so be it! There's only one decision that is going to be made... and none of us are going to make them.... nor will all of our hopes and dreams be pleased. lol

Did he have TOS in washington?

[ibraheim718]

hoping somebody in year 7 of being professional adds things to his game that he never had belong in same category of BS like hoping Howard learns post moves from Hakeem just because he had couple of workouts with him.

it's waste of time.

You will either be okey what Fultz is and has been for past 6 years, or won't.

But one thing 100% won't happen. He 100% won't become "new " player in year seven, after spending 15 years playing basketball that molded him in player he was all the way up until last regular season game, 150-180 days ago.

Summer workouts aren't transformation chambers. Life isn't video game.

This is so disingenuous. Yeah he's been in the league 6 years but he's only played in 191 games. That's like 2 and half seasons. Markelle has plenty of room to grow. To say otherwise is just not being fair to him. But then again at least you're "consistent" in your refusal to accept that NBA players can improve throughout the course of their careers.

Unfortunately because of injury he hasn't even been given the opportunity to see how he plays when things get sticky in meaningful games. If he performs that alone disproves your post.

[pepe1991]

Lowry and Billups are only nba players in entire nba history to turn into allstars after 9 years and become allstars 3 consecutive times after that.
That's grasping a straw, if you know your sample size is 2 out of 5000 and 0,04% probability.

To Knicks fan , and by your logic, Greg Oden , if he returns today, at age of 35, would still be sophmore? After all, his cumulative games played is one season and quater.
If you have been in nba for now, 7 years and your game count is thin, you aren't sophmore. You are 7th year player who is injury prone.
Players don't start playing sport when they turn pros, they spend over decade playing that sport before they turn pros. That's why somebody who 25 normally shows very little to no progress . Because he has been playing that exect sport for past 15 years at that point, if not more.
Matter of fact median retirment age in nba is 33 but average age of retirment in nba is ...drumroll.. between 27 and 28.

It's bit more complicated than that but nba is spits out players very fast. if you aren't very young, you don't improve or aren't very productive, nba won't have spot for you.That's why average career in nba is just 4 and half years.
There is whole bunch of guys drafted in 2019, who are no longer in nba. Including lottery picks. After this year, odds are, Okeke, former 16th pick, from 2019, also won't be in nba. As Knicks fan, you probably are very faimiliar with names such as Kai Jones, Kevin Knox and Frank Nitilikina. All those guys are either out of nba or on verge of being out of nba, and all of them are sub age of 26.


How long ago was Fultz college season on Washington? Well so far ago that in that nba season, John Wall was MVP candidate and Westbrook was mvp winner.
College footage ? Jesus. Might as well find Jah Okafor and bring him in. After all, he was new Duncan ...

And lastly he has TOS. I won't go back into that rabbit hole, but there are only 2 scenarios:
-he had TOS, thefore still has it, since he had no surgery and nerve demage won't cure itself
- he never had TOS, therefore he doesn't have one now

Everybody can belive in whatever they want. Don't reallycare.

[Skybox]

Lowry and Billups are only nba players in entire nba history to turn into allstars after 9 years and become allstars 3 consecutive times after that.
That's grasping a straw, if you know your sample size is 2 out of 5000 and 0,04% probability.

To Knicks fan , and by your logic, Greg Oden , if he returns today, at age of 35, would still be sophmore? After all, his cumulative games played is one season and quater.
If you have been in nba for now, 7 years and your game count is thin, you aren't sophmore. You are 7th year player who is injury prone.
Players don't start playing sport when they turn pros, they spend over decade playing that sport before they turn pros. That's why somebody who 25 normally shows very little to no progress . Because he has been playing that exect sport for past 15 years at that point, if not more.
Matter of fact median retirment age in nba is 33 but average age of retirment in nba is ...drumroll.. between 27 and 28.

It's bit more complicated than that but nba is spits out players very fast. if you aren't very young, you don't improve or aren't very productive, nba won't have spot for you.That's why average career in nba is just 4 and half years.
There is whole bunch of guys drafted in 2019, who are no longer in nba. Including lottery picks. After this year, odds are, Okeke, former 16th pick, from 2019, also won't be in nba. As Knicks fan, you probably are very faimiliar with names such as Kai Jones, Kevin Knox and Frank Nitilikina. All those guys are either out of nba or on verge of being out of nba, and all of them are sub age of 26.


How long ago was Fultz college season on Washington? Well so far ago that in that nba season, John Wall was MVP candidate and Westbrook was mvp winner.
College footage ? Jesus. Might as well find Jah Okafor and bring him in. After all, he was new Duncan ...

And lastly he has TOS. I won't go back into that rabbit hole, but there are only 2 scenarios:
-he had TOS, thefore still has it, since he had no surgery and nerve demage won't cure itself
- he never had TOS, therefore he doesn't have one now

Everybody can belive in whatever they want. Don't reallycare.

Excellent post…all of the explanations for Fultz’ mediocrity may be legitimate (TOS, limited games played…) but that doesn’t change who he is or what he will be. It’s okay to bet a minimum salary on a miraculous rebirth and root for a great guy. It’s bad management to count on it and invest X% of your cap and X% of your PG mpg on that hope. Just good business.

[drsd]

After this year, odds are, Okeke, former 16th pick, from 2019, also won't be in nba.

[Audi]

And lastly he has TOS. I won't go back into that rabbit hole, but there are only 2 scenarios:
-he had TOS, thefore still has it, since he had no surgery and nerve demage won't cure itself
- he never had TOS, therefore he doesn't have one now

How do you “go back into” a rabbit hole you never went into in the first place? If you had, you’d know neurogenic TOS is not nerve damage, but rather nerve *compression*. Major difference. Despite how many times you claim it cannot - neurogenic TOS can be rehabbed without surgery. So the third scenario here is that you are simply wrong.

[Knightro]

How do you “go back into” a rabbit hole you never went into in the first place? If you had, you’d know neurogenic TOS is not nerve damage, but rather nerve *compression*. Major difference. Despite how many times you claim it cannot - neurogenic TOS can be rehabbed without surgery. So the third scenario here is that you are simply wrong.

I do think that part of the problem for a lot of people on the outside looking in stems from the fact that the vast majority of professional athletes who are diagnosed with thoracic outlet syndrome (most of them baseball pitchers) do opt for surgery and generally show no or very minimal TOS issues after surgery.

It’s not fair to Markelle because it’s his body and his decision and not ours, but the fact that he seemingly never even considered having surgery to address his TOS - a surgery that has clearly worked for a lot of other professional athletes - raised red flags for a lot people questioning the validity of his injury.

[drsd]

There is whole bunch of guys drafted in 2019, who are no longer in nba. Including lottery picks.

The first round has some truly disappointing players. There are more than 10 guys below that should not be in the NBA. But it is an odd draft as there are late picks that are really interesting players. By 2025, I would project one third of the 2019 draft will already be out of the NBA.


1. Pelicans draft Zion Williamson
Allstar, and a bigmac away from a career ending injury

2. Grizzlies draft Ja Morant
Allstar that soon may be out of the league

3. Knicks draft RJ Barrett
Very Good starter

4. Lakers draft De’Andre Hunter >> officially traded to the Hawks, after first being dealt to the Pelicans
Good starter

5. Cavaliers draft Darius Garland
Marginal Allstar

6. Suns draft Jarrett Culver >> officially traded to the Timberwolves
Scrub

7. Bulls draft Coby White
Rotational player

8. Hawks draft Jaxson Hayes >> officially traded to the Pelicans
Deep bench player

9. Wizards draft Rui Hachimura
Rotational player

10. Hawks draft Cam Reddish
Rotational player

11. Timberwolves draft Cameron Johnson >> officially traded to the Suns
Good starter; many missed games

12. Hornets draft PJ Washington
Good starter

13. Heat draft Tyler Herro
Very Good starter

14. Celtics draft Romeo Langford
Scrub

15. Pistons draft Sekou Doumbouya
Scrub

16. Magic draft Chuma Okeke
Scrub

17. Nets draft Nickeil Alexander-Walker >> officially traded to the Pelicans, after first being dealt to the Hawks
Deep bench player

18. Pacers draft Goga Bitadze
Future Hall of Famer - seriously: Deep bench player

19. Spurs draft Luka Samanic
Rotational player

20. Celtics draft Matisse Thybulle >> officially traded to the 76ers
Scrub

21. Thunder draft Brandon Clarke >> officially traded to the Grizzlies
Rotational player

22. Celtics draft Grant Williams
Scrub

23. Jazz draft Darius Bazley >> officially traded to the Thunder after first being dealt to the Grizzlies
Scrub

24. 76ers draft Ty Jerome >> officially traded to the Suns after first being dealt to the Celtics
Rotational player

25. Trail Blazers draft Nassir Little
Rotational player

26. Cavaliers draft Dylan Windler
Scrub

27. Nets draft Mfiondu Kabengele >> officially traded to the Clippers
Scrub

28. Warriors draft Jordan Poole
Very Good starter

29. Spurs draft Keldon Johnson
Potential future Allstar

30. Bucks draft Kevin Porter Jr. >> officially traded to the Cavaliers after first being dealt to the Pistons
Very Good starter

[Audi]

How do you “go back into” a rabbit hole you never went into in the first place? If you had, you’d know neurogenic TOS is not nerve damage, but rather nerve *compression*. Major difference. Despite how many times you claim it cannot - neurogenic TOS can be rehabbed without surgery. So the third scenario here is that you are simply wrong.

I do think that part of the problem for a lot of people on the outside looking in stems from the fact that the vast majority of professional athletes who are diagnosed with thoracic outlet syndrome (most of them baseball pitchers) do opt for surgery and generally show no or very minimal TOS issues after surgery.

It’s not fair to Markelle because it’s his body and his decision and not ours, but the fact that he seemingly never even considered having surgery to address his TOS - a surgery that has clearly worked for a lot of other professional athletes - raised red flags for a lot people questioning the validity of his injury.

What's not fair to Fultz is that people are questioning the validity of an injury they fail to understand from the jump.

There are three types of TOS. Arterial TOS (compression of the axillary-subclavian artery), Venous TOS (compression of the axillary-subclavian vein), and Neurogenic TOS (compression of the brachial plexus nerves). Surgery for arterial and venous TOS is more commonplace due to the fact that there can be serious health complications if left untreated, like blood clots. Surgery for Neurogenic TOS is considered only as a last resort when physical therapy and other non-invasive treatments prove unsuccessful. Even in the event that all else fails and surgery is considered, it still requires the difficult task of pinpointing the spot of compression in a highly complex area of the body. Sometimes the surgery could be a minimally invasive cleanup of scar tissue. Sometimes, the removal of a rib. Or, surgeons may not be able to find the exact area of compression and refuse to operate on such a complex and important area of the body, when worst case scenarios are paralysis and death.

[Knightro]

What's not fair to Fultz is that people are questioning the validity of an injury they fail to understand from the jump.

There are three types of TOS. Arterial TOS (compression of the axillary-subclavian artery), Venous TOS (compression of the axillary-subclavian vein), and Neurogenic TOS (compression of the brachial plexus nerves). Surgery for arterial and venous TOS is more commonplace due to the fact that there can be serious health complications if left untreated, like blood clots. Surgery for Neurogenic TOS is considered only as a last resort when physical therapy and other non-invasive treatments prove unsuccessful. Even in the event that all else fails and surgery is considered, it still requires the difficult task of pinpointing the spot of compression in a highly complex area of the body. Sometimes the surgery could be a minimally invasive cleanup of scar tissue. Sometimes, the removal of a rib. Or, surgeons may not be able to find the exact area of compression and refuse to operate on such a complex and important area of the body, when worst case scenarios are paralysis and death.

I ask this with absolutely no snark or intended disrespect - do you have a medical background?

[Knightro]

What's not fair to Fultz is that people are questioning the validity of an injury they fail to understand from the jump.

There are three types of TOS. Arterial TOS (compression of the axillary-subclavian artery), Venous TOS (compression of the axillary-subclavian vein), and Neurogenic TOS (compression of the brachial plexus nerves). Surgery for arterial and venous TOS is more commonplace due to the fact that there can be serious health complications if left untreated, like blood clots. Surgery for Neurogenic TOS is considered only as a last resort when physical therapy and other non-invasive treatments prove unsuccessful. Even in the event that all else fails and surgery is considered, it still requires the difficult task of pinpointing the spot of compression in a highly complex area of the body. Sometimes the surgery could be a minimally invasive cleanup of scar tissue. Sometimes, the removal of a rib. Or, surgeons may not be able to find the exact area of compression and refuse to operate on such a complex and important area of the body, when worst case scenarios are paralysis and death.

I want to emphasize again that if you have a medical background, I'm not at all calling your credentials into question.

That said... I do think there's a significant difference between a 45-year-old desk job Joe Schmo who's shoulder hurts because of nerve compression and now can't swim for a hobby like he wants to versus to 20-year-old professional athlete who's entire professional career depends on his ability to use his arms functionally.

If you don't agree that athletes should be held to a different standard, that's fine. But they are obviously held to a different standard in cases of acceptable/expected medical care.

I just don't think it's apples to apples to compare a "normal" person whose body isn't 100% paramount to their ability to do their job in a functional way opting for therapy over surgery is the same thing as a professional athlete opting for therapy over surgery.

Those are not the same scenario in my eyes.

[Audi]

What's not fair to Fultz is that people are questioning the validity of an injury they fail to understand from the jump.

There are three types of TOS. Arterial TOS (compression of the axillary-subclavian artery), Venous TOS (compression of the axillary-subclavian vein), and Neurogenic TOS (compression of the brachial plexus nerves). Surgery for arterial and venous TOS is more commonplace due to the fact that there can be serious health complications if left untreated, like blood clots. Surgery for Neurogenic TOS is considered only as a last resort when physical therapy and other non-invasive treatments prove unsuccessful. Even in the event that all else fails and surgery is considered, it still requires the difficult task of pinpointing the spot of compression in a highly complex area of the body. Sometimes the surgery could be a minimally invasive cleanup of scar tissue. Sometimes, the removal of a rib. Or, surgeons may not be able to find the exact area of compression and refuse to operate on such a complex and important area of the body, when worst case scenarios are paralysis and death.

I ask this with absolutely no snark or intended disrespect - do you have a medical background?

No I don't. My wife was in a bad car accident years back and lingering issues over the years have led me into a lot of deep research into various neurological conditions and TOS was one of those. I'm pretty sure most of the information I'm talking about is available with even the most basic google search, which is why it's frustrating there are still people like pepe who hold these opinions but have never cared to validate them.

[Audi]

What's not fair to Fultz is that people are questioning the validity of an injury they fail to understand from the jump.

There are three types of TOS. Arterial TOS (compression of the axillary-subclavian artery), Venous TOS (compression of the axillary-subclavian vein), and Neurogenic TOS (compression of the brachial plexus nerves). Surgery for arterial and venous TOS is more commonplace due to the fact that there can be serious health complications if left untreated, like blood clots. Surgery for Neurogenic TOS is considered only as a last resort when physical therapy and other non-invasive treatments prove unsuccessful. Even in the event that all else fails and surgery is considered, it still requires the difficult task of pinpointing the spot of compression in a highly complex area of the body. Sometimes the surgery could be a minimally invasive cleanup of scar tissue. Sometimes, the removal of a rib. Or, surgeons may not be able to find the exact area of compression and refuse to operate on such a complex and important area of the body, when worst case scenarios are paralysis and death.

I want to emphasize again that if you have a medical background, I'm not at all calling your credentials into question.

That said... I do think there's a significant difference between a 45-year-old desk job Joe Schmo who's shoulder hurts because of nerve compression and now can't swim for a hobby like he wants to versus to 20-year-old professional athlete who's entire professional career depends on his ability to use his arms functionally.

If you don't agree that athletes should be held to a different standard, that's fine. But they are obviously held to a different standard in cases of acceptable/expected medical care.

I just don't think it's apples to apples to compare a "normal" person whose body isn't 100% paramount to their ability to do their job in a functional way opting for therapy over surgery is the same thing as a professional athlete opting for therapy over surgery.

Those are not the same scenario in my eyes.

I get what you are saying, but even in the case of another professional athelete with TOS, it should still not be the same scenario in your eyes. Every scenario/situation is different. Just because, say, pitcher A with TOS opts to have a cervical rib removed, that doesn't automatically mean removing a cervical rib of pitcher B will alleviate the symptoms of his TOS.

For all we know, Markelle may have already discussed all surgical options with his doctors and they all concluded the risks outweighed the reward. Or, maybe his therapy has been going well so surgery isn't paramount. Who knows. But the leap from "we have limited information about Markelle's health and he didn't get surgery on his TOS like this other player who did" to "that must mean he is faking it" is absolutely absurd.

[yoyojw17]

hoping somebody in year 7 of being professional adds things to his game that he never had belong in same category of BS like hoping Howard learns post moves from Hakeem just because he had couple of workouts with him.

it's waste of time.

You will either be okey what Fultz is and has been for past 6 years, or won't.

But one thing 100% won't happen. He 100% won't become "new " player in year seven, after spending 15 years playing basketball that molded him in player he was all the way up until last regular season game, 150-180 days ago.

Summer workouts aren't transformation chambers. Life isn't video game.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/markelle-fultz-1.html

I won't ever say "never"... Washington Fultz before the Debilitating TOS syndrome and a few injuries to start his career.... would also suggest otherwise. There was a reason why he was the #1 pick in the 2017 draft.... and we all know the circumstances that have messed with his progress.

This is the healthiest he's been in forever.... and that's why many of us want to see what he can be before making any decisions. There should be no "never" with him... as letting him go or simply trading him before seeing would be a poor talent management move by the front office.

Yep... i would love to see him shooting 3's like everyone else... and personally have the patience to give him that opportunity. but as long as people use that as the only measure stick for whether or not he fits and overlooks the good that he does.... and the successes that he helps bring.... then people will always say "We just need a shooter"... " #ShooterMakesUsBetter "

needless to say.... the team could be less successful too if all they did was swap him for a fred vanvleet like so many people wanted. There are so many variables that are necessary to make the team successful..... so if the front office sees what others don't... so be it! There's only one decision that is going to be made... and none of us are going to make them.... nor will all of our hopes and dreams be pleased. lol

Did he have TOS in washington?

Nope... not in university... that started in the offseason going into the league... just averaged 23 point 5 reb 5 ast 3+ stocks 40% 3 pointers on 5 shots and 47% overall .... on a not so talented washington team. Nope... not in university... that started in the offseason going into the league... just averaged 23 point 5 reb 5 ast 3+ stocks 40% 3 pointers on 5 shots and 47% overall .... on a not so talented washington team. He was pretty darn good!

[VFX]

It’s very inconvenient to randomly get TOS in your first year of the league where you have to prove yourself as the overall #1 pick, in an exceedingly more difficult level of competition, while never being involved in a catastrophic accident.

Very inconvenient indeed.

Anyway, who needs a bridge? I’m selling one.

[pepe1991]

It. Doesn't. Matter.

It simply doesn't matter was TOS or any other condition that caused him to crush and burn.

It simply doesn't matter what he did at college. It was 7 years ago.

It doesn't matter what you think he was poised to be or do.

It doesn't matter what i think about him.


Only thing that matters is fact that he didn't live up to expetations, that's execlly how we were able to get him AND what he is as player NOW. Because odds are, this is best version of him you will ever see.

[thelead]

I’ll give my final verdict ~25 games into the season. It’s worth seeing what he has before moving on. I will say, he’s not looking to shoot it more even though the form has improved so far this preseason. That doesn’t make me excited for his future. Everything else has been good though so it’s tough.

[Skybox]

It. Doesn't. Matter.

It simply doesn't matter was TOS or any other condition that caused him to crush and burn.

It simply doesn't matter what he did at college. It was 7 years ago.

It doesn't matter what you think he was poised to be or do.

It doesn't matter what i think about him.


Only thing that matters is fact that he didn't live up to expetations, that's execlly how we were able to get him AND what he is as player NOW. Because odds are, this is best version of him you will ever see.

This is the cold hard truth. He's a great kid. He's set for life financially and was worth the financial risk. He didn't fake his funky medical issue or its effects (IMO). But...he's not our best choice going forward and he's too big a financial risk starting now. He's not passing up 3's because he's selfless and "pass-first". You can't pay him for what you hope he'll start doing but hasn't done yet. I don't question anything about his character, integrity, or effort...I'm also a good guy, but I can't play the way ORL needs their guards to play.

He MIGHT become able to start playing differently someday. IF he does, he won't be the first late success story and he'll have a plausible medical reason why his shooting stroke was reborn after 7 years in the league. It's just no longer a good bet for ORL.

[thelead]

It. Doesn't. Matter.

It simply doesn't matter was TOS or any other condition that caused him to crush and burn.

It simply doesn't matter what he did at college. It was 7 years ago.

It doesn't matter what you think he was poised to be or do.

It doesn't matter what i think about him.


Only thing that matters is fact that he didn't live up to expetations, that's execlly how we were able to get him AND what he is as player NOW. Because odds are, this is best version of him you will ever see.

This is the cold hard truth. He's a great kid. He's set for life financially and was worth the financial risk. He didn't fake his funky medical issue or its effects (IMO). But...he's not our best choice going forward and he's too big a financial risk starting now. He's not passing up 3's because he's selfless and "pass-first". You can't pay him for what you hope he'll start doing but hasn't done yet. I don't question anything about his character, integrity, or effort...I'm also a good guy, but I can't play the way ORL needs their guards to play.

He MIGHT become able to start playing differently someday. IF he does, he won't be the first late success story and he'll have a plausible medical reason why his shooting stroke was reborn after 7 years in the league. It's just no longer a good bet for ORL.

That last sentence… what harm is there in giving him a few dozen games this season to see what he has???

[yoyojw17]

It’s very inconvenient to randomly get TOS in your first year of the league where you have to prove yourself as the overall #1 pick, in an exceedingly more difficult level of competition, while never being involved in a catastrophic accident.

Very inconvenient indeed.

Anyway, who needs a bridge? I’m selling one.

So now it's a conspiracy? lol

From what i understood ... you don't need to have an accident to develop it. It can be from overuse

Often occurs in individuals engaged in occupational or recreational activities that involve repetitive overhead use of the arms and/or heavy lifting

https://tos.wustl.edu/for-patients/neurogenic-thoracic-outlet-syndrome-tos/#:~:text=Often%20occurs%20in%20individuals%20engaged,fall%20upon%20the%20outstretched%20arm)

You know what could have done so... being in the gym and putting up an excessive number of three pointers in order to be what the 76ers needed. So... that might be why it was unknown why it happened. Lol... "inconvenience"

whelp... happy the season is not far away.