Markelle Fultz

[Knightro]

I think Markelle is a very nice kid, albeit one who has not always been totally forthcoming and truthful (most of that was pre Orlando acquisition to be fair) all the time.

I also think Markelle is good (and sometimes very good) at the things he's currently good at.

I just don't think the things he's good at are all that valuable compared to the things he's not very good at.

That's literally it. I have nothing against him at all and don't think he's a scrub or anything.

I just think his skill set is missing a few very critical things you need out of a modern NBA lead guard and especially so on a team like Orlando that is already lacking shooting and spacing.

[Skybox]

It. Doesn't. Matter.

It simply doesn't matter was TOS or any other condition that caused him to crush and burn.

It simply doesn't matter what he did at college. It was 7 years ago.

It doesn't matter what you think he was poised to be or do.

It doesn't matter what i think about him.


Only thing that matters is fact that he didn't live up to expetations, that's execlly how we were able to get him AND what he is as player NOW. Because odds are, this is best version of him you will ever see.

This is the cold hard truth. He's a great kid. He's set for life financially and was worth the financial risk. He didn't fake his funky medical issue or its effects (IMO). But...he's not our best choice going forward and he's too big a financial risk starting now. He's not passing up 3's because he's selfless and "pass-first". You can't pay him for what you hope he'll start doing but hasn't done yet. I don't question anything about his character, integrity, or effort...I'm also a good guy, but I can't play the way ORL needs their guards to play.

He MIGHT become able to start playing differently someday. IF he does, he won't be the first late success story and he'll have a plausible medical reason why his shooting stroke was reborn after 7 years in the league. It's just no longer a good bet for ORL.

That last sentence… what harm is there in giving him a few dozen games this season to see what he has???

I agree -No harm at this point... I hope he lets it fly and it all works out. I'm just not betting on it or advising the FO to bet further on it if it doesn't happen now...his trade value would've been higher this past summer and we could have packaged him and some combo of Harris, cap space, multiple picks to get a better young player. I thought everything was in place for an explosive summer and a resultant Big 3...but we didn't so here we are.

Only harm I see is potentially wasting some months figuring out what we already should have and denying development time to our rookies (or the guys we should have acquired) with Franz, Paolo, etc. I DO think wasting a season matters when big contracts are looming.

[Knightro]

That last sentence… what harm is there in giving him a few dozen games this season to see what he has???

Believe me. It ain't gonna be a few dozen games.

Markelle Fultz is going to start this entire season at point guard unless he gets hurt. He's at virtually zero risk of losing his spot. Right or wrong, the organization loves him.

And I'll tell you right now even if his 3PT and FT volume don't uptick at all from last year, the Magic are going to sign him to another contract this summer too.

[yoyojw17]

It. Doesn't. Matter.

It simply doesn't matter was TOS or any other condition that caused him to crush and burn.

It simply doesn't matter what he did at college. It was 7 years ago.

It doesn't matter what you think he was poised to be or do.

It doesn't matter what i think about him.


Only thing that matters is fact that he didn't live up to expetations, that's execlly how we were able to get him AND what he is as player NOW. Because odds are, this is best version of him you will ever see.

See... all of a sudden... for someone that uses all the facts advantageously on all of his posts... it all simply "doesn't matter" lol

Don't tell me that the derailment of your first 2 years due to TOS... doesn't matter. That you returned and got injured doesn't matter.

The team was tanking and gave you extra time to heal... doesn't matter

you were finally coming back and broke your toe on furniture at the beginning of the season you were supposed to make your come back doesn't matter.

or coming back and helping the team that went 5-20 to start the season without you (and cole as well) ... and the YOUNG team plays near .500 bball... doesn't matter

BUT... you are correct on the last one.... what we think.... doesn't matter....Because we are not part of FO... and it seems that the front office sees something worth exploring and that is why we still have him on the team. And for that reason... we will see him play and be evaluated.... and if he proves himself... he will get his contract... and if he doesn't fit the bill... he will most likely get traded.

He didn't meet their needs and expectations.... ANNNNNND didn't have the patience and time to wait and figure it out. That's why he is on our team. Shoot... we got WCJ in a similar manner... albeit for a better return.... or so the Bulls thought.

[VFX]

It. Doesn't. Matter.

See... all of a sudden... for someone that uses all the facts advantageously on all of his posts... it all simply "doesn't matter" lol.

I mean..why does it really?

We have nearly full two seasons of data from Fultz playing basketball and we are going into this season as his contract year.

What does arguing about “TOS” change anything about him now?

Nothing you can say about his rookie season in the league will change my opinion on the matter and it shouldn’t matter anyway.

[Skybox]

What does matter is that he can't or won't shoot.

What does matter is that he doesn't draw freebies and get defenders in foul trouble.

What does matter is that he doesn't pile up assists or any other elite contribution to negate the previous matters.

What does matter is that he is an expiring contract.

What doesn't matter is how he got there.

[Darth Magic]

I'm currently listening to the Lowe Post podcast with Zach Lowe and Kevin Clarke and he's doing an extended conversation on the Magic and they are discussing Markelle Fultz. They raise many of the same issues that we are discussing here. It's a good listen. I think Zach is pretty much spot on in his assessment. Fultz is my favorite Magic player with Franz second. I agree with Zach that Fultz is a winning player and even his awkward fit makes him a worthy player to have. But if you have two ball dominant wings, you just can't have a point guard who is pass first and reluctant to shoot. Something has to give. I am hoping and praying that Fultz takes a makes a lot of 3s this season. If that doesn't happen then you have to move on.

[pepe1991]

It. Doesn't. Matter.

It simply doesn't matter was TOS or any other condition that caused him to crush and burn.

It simply doesn't matter what he did at college. It was 7 years ago.

It doesn't matter what you think he was poised to be or do.

It doesn't matter what i think about him.


Only thing that matters is fact that he didn't live up to expetations, that's execlly how we were able to get him AND what he is as player NOW. Because odds are, this is best version of him you will ever see.

See... all of a sudden... for someone that uses all the facts advantageously on all of his posts... it all simply "doesn't matter" lol

Don't tell me that the derailment of your first 2 years due to TOS... doesn't matter. That you returned and got injured doesn't matter.

The team was tanking and gave you extra time to heal... doesn't matter

you were finally coming back and broke your toe on furniture at the beginning of the season you were supposed to make your come back doesn't matter.

or coming back and helping the team that went 5-20 to start the season without you (and cole as well) ... and the YOUNG team plays near .500 bball... doesn't matter

BUT... you are correct on the last one.... what we think.... doesn't matter....Because we are not part of FO... and it seems that the front office sees something worth exploring and that is why we still have him on the team. And for that reason... we will see him play and be evaluated.... and if he proves himself... he will get his contract... and if he doesn't fit the bill... he will most likely get traded.

He didn't meet their needs and expectations.... ANNNNNND didn't have the patience and time to wait and figure it out. That's why he is on our team. Shoot... we got WCJ in a similar manner... albeit for a better return.... or so the Bulls thought.

This is last time i ever talk about TOS on basketball forum. I swear.

TOS isn't exact science, it's medical condition that doctors come to once they dry out other alternative diagnoses.
TOS tests are notorious for being unreliable. One of tests in recent history , under new studies, showed to give near 50% false positive results.

In my personal opinion, he doesn't have TOS, nor ever had one. Again ,this is mine personal opinion, and much like his condition, it'impossible to prove right. But also to prove wrong.

Timeline is everything.

The drama

76ers writer for Voice Rich Hofmann , before draft, described Fultz -76ers workout as "Yep, Fultz threw up a bunch of bricks. (june 17)
In summer league dubt, Fultz goes 4-12 FG, 0-3 for 3 and 2-4 from FT line. Sprains ankle. Done with SL. ( July 9)

Brett Brown says this

“Markelle has made some personal adjustments to his shot since we last saw him in Vegas, we’ve done stuff with him but really he’s been with his personal trainer over the month of August and since Summer League ended,” said Brown. “He chose to look at some different things on his shot, heart’s in the right place, trying to improve. Slowly, we’re coming back into it and trying to recalibrate and get it back.”

September 28th.

HOWEVER , Fultz denied making big changes ?!

“It was just something going on where I wanted to try something new, but my free throw’s going to look the same as college. I’m just trying to look at different ways to see how the ball can go in the hoop,” said Fultz. He stressed that his primary point-of-emphasis has been on getting ready for a deeper three-point line, and improving his proficiency as an off-ball threat. “This is a further three, so just [getting ready to] catch-and-shoot. You’ve got great people here—Ben, JJ, everybody—so you’ve got to be ready to catch-and-shoot whenever you’re open.”

Season starts. Fultz refuses to shoot. Becomes meme.

October 24

"Markelle had a shoulder injury and fluid drained out of the back of his shoulder," [Fultz's] agent Raymond Brothers told ESPN. "He literally cannot raise up his arms to shoot the basketball. He decided to try and fight through the pain to help the team. He has a great attitude. We are committed to finding a solution to get Markelle back to 100 percent."

He didn't play again until late March of 2018. Played 11 games ( made 1 three point attemp) and was on heavy min restriction.

Season over.


In offseason he works with Drew Hanlen who says in public that Fultz has yips.

Hanlen during season claims Fultz has health problem, but delites tweet (November 5, 2018)

Motorcycle accident rumor emerges ( November 15,2018)


Serious drama
[ovember 19, 2018- he is demoted to bench. Next day his agent tells 76ers he won't play basketball again until he sees another shoulder specialist.


December 4, 2018. Diagnosed with TOS.

However.

Throughout the process of figuring out exactly what's going on, a source told PhillyVoice that Fultz has seen over 10 specialists and that the root cause of the various symptoms (most pertinently the wonky shooting mechanics) remains an unknown.

So ... you are telling me that 10 different shoulder specialists couldn't find anything wrong with him ?

But that's not all. He was prescribed- a physical theraphy.


And here's kicker- one that he has been doing for ages -before officially being diagnosed with TOS

Dating back to last fall when Fultz was diagnosed with scapular muscle imbalance by Dr. Ben Kibler, the young guard has been undergoing various forms of physical therapy. The Sixers acknowledged this process with formal updates and even released a formal press release to declare the imbalance fixed last winter. From a release dated December 9, 2017:

Fultz is no longer experiencing soreness in his right shoulder and the scapular muscle imbalance is resolved. He will continue ongoing physical therapy and maintenance, while participating in increased strength and conditioning training and elevated on-court basketball activities. The 76ers medical team, in coordination with Dr. Ben Kibler, will gauge his readiness in approximately three weeks.

So here we go full cyricle. He was diagnosed with vague condition, one that at least 10 shoulder specialits fail to figure, and only cure for it was one thing he has been doing for FULL YEAR ALREADY?

Interesting convenience. Day after being kicked out of SL he is "done". Doctor hooping until conviniant , hard to disprove diagnose is founded. That, again, conveniently enough, doesn't require surgery. Again, one that +10 doctors fail to find. Not just doctors. Specialists.



My opinion. I can't prove this but imo, he simply never had TOS nor any other physical condition. I think he had mental burnout from expetations of being 1# pick, from very opinionated 76ers fans & pressure he putted on himself. His draft was hyped as one of strongest ever, and he had to listen about it each and every day. He wasn't ready for it. Once he on his own (or with his coach) started to experiment with jumpshots and it didn't improve in fashion he expected, things went to hell.

Again, keep in mind: he was already struggling to shoot in both summer league (documented) and we know for fact he couldn't shoot in pre draft workout for 76ers. What i didn't tell you yet is- he also - couldn't shoot well in preworkout for Celtics. And after 76ers fiasco of shooting in workout- he cancelled all other workouts.
Keep in mind , college season ended around March, he already couldn't shoot 90-100 days later. Whole shoulder drama started much later.

There isn't any defined evidence for my theory. But lot of circumstantial evidence. But much like TOS, can't be proven, nor disproven.

I'm out on this .

[Audi]

Wow. I truly hope everyone here is smart enough not to buy the "can't be proven nor disproven" garbage pepe is spewing. Medical conditions do not exist-but-also-not-exist, floating in the ether for someone to choose at their convenience. He's entitled to his opinion, just don't let it influence your own.

Just shake your head and scroll on.

[Rainwater]

It. Doesn't. Matter.

It simply doesn't matter was TOS or any other condition that caused him to crush and burn.

It simply doesn't matter what he did at college. It was 7 years ago.

It doesn't matter what you think he was poised to be or do.

It doesn't matter what i think about him.


Only thing that matters is fact that he didn't live up to expetations, that's execlly how we were able to get him AND what he is as player NOW. Because odds are, this is best version of him you will ever see.

It really doesn’t, lol. What does matter is if he can produce today.

[Rainwater]

Wow…can’t argue with that last bit

Show me where the context of the word “prejudice” isn’t correct here.

I understand your point and your use of the word…it’s just completely inaccurate. Assuming “you guys” includes me, you might want to consider all of the specific scenarios that I include in my hateful posts to show what I think Markelle could add to his game to be a good fit with the unquestioned core players on this team…if he can tweak his game to be a more realistic 2023 PG, I’m in. So…prejudice is the wrong word. I’m not decidedly against Markelle. I’m not prejudiced in the way you suggest. My bias isn’t at all personal or emotional (like your defense of him). It’s 100% based on team needs and reality of the ceiling on this team as presently constructed. The easiest, best solution to our PG problem would be for him to change, because he’s already here, and he’s potentially got it in him. At one time, he was the next big thing #1 pick…I tend to believe that makes it more likely that he could be that again vs someone who was never great becoming great….THE question is “How long can we hang on to this experiment before it’s evident that he’s not that guy?”. There’s no question that he’s lacking right now, he’s already an overpaid expiring deal, and he’ll be expecting a raise.

It’d be more realistic to disparage YOU GUYS as Markelle “lovers” or fanboys or apologists, since you stand by your man, without any consideration or discussion based on his style of play, our team needs, what could reasonably change for the better and what deadlines the FO might give themselves to finally make some decisions about our weak guard rotation.

I think there will always be an issue if you critique someone’s favorite player. They will always view it as hate when in reality it is just a critique.

Fultz is an amazing role player but given his weaknesses I don’t think he fits what the magic are doing. And given the fact he has been in the league 7 years now, I don’t think he will magically change to be the player the magic want him to be.

I often say this about Fultz, he is the new AG. A good player that seems to have a massive fan base but his fan base seems to have an unrealistic view of him. 7 years in people are still expecting him to break out and become the player he was projected to be or show the skills he should have had. It rarely works like that.

[Rainwater]

Wow. I truly hope everyone here is smart enough not to buy the "can't be proven nor disproven" garbage pepe is spewing. Medical conditions do not exist-but-also-not-exist, floating in the ether for someone to choose at their convenience. He's entitled to his opinion, just don't let it influence your own.

Just shake your head and scroll on.

I think what Pepe is trying to say it doesn’t matter if Fultz does or doesn’t have TOS or if its what is causing him not to perform the way the magic what him to. The question is can he do what the magic need him to do? And honestly, that is the most important question. And Pepe is saying no.

[Rainwater]

I'm currently listening to the Lowe Post podcast with Zach Lowe and Kevin Clarke and he's doing an extended conversation on the Magic and they are discussing Markelle Fultz. They raise many of the same issues that we are discussing here. It's a good listen. I think Zach is pretty much spot on in his assessment. Fultz is my favorite Magic player with Franz second. I agree with Zach that Fultz is a winning player and even his awkward fit makes him a worthy player to have. But if you have two ball dominant wings, you just can't have a point guard who is pass first and reluctant to shoot. Something has to give. I am hoping and praying that Fultz takes a makes a lot of 3s this season. If that doesn't happen then you have to move on.

Good post

[Bensational]

I've been watching the team this preseason and they look like they're going to be a fun and aggressive team that's going to have a legit chance to win on any given night. Game threads haven't been filled with Fultz frustrations. The reality of how enjoyable and successful this season can (and will) be with Fultz on the team is so distorted in this thread.

The season is about to begin and Fultz is the starting PG on the team in the final year of his deal. Deal with it.

[Bensational]

What does matter is that he can't or won't shoot.

What does matter is that he doesn't draw freebies and get defenders in foul trouble.

What does matter is that he doesn't pile up assists or any other elite contribution to negate the previous matters.

What does matter is that he is an expiring contract.

What doesn't matter is how he got there.

Does it matter if the team wins? How far down the list of what matters does that go?

[Skybox]

What does matter is that he can't or won't shoot.

What does matter is that he doesn't draw freebies and get defenders in foul trouble.

What does matter is that he doesn't pile up assists or any other elite contribution to negate the previous matters.

What does matter is that he is an expiring contract.

What doesn't matter is how he got there.

Does it matter if the team wins? How far down the list of what matters does that go?

If they win 40 with Fultz,I can only dream of the win totals with a better fitting PG

Will Perdue has 4 rings, Dickey Simpkins 3, Carl Herrera and Mark Madsen has 2…wins = awesomeness?

[Bensational]

What does matter is that he can't or won't shoot.

What does matter is that he doesn't draw freebies and get defenders in foul trouble.

What does matter is that he doesn't pile up assists or any other elite contribution to negate the previous matters.

What does matter is that he is an expiring contract.

What doesn't matter is how he got there.

Does it matter if the team wins? How far down the list of what matters does that go?

If they win 40 with Fultz,I can only dream of the win totals with a better fitting PG

Will Perdue has 4 rings, Dickey Simpkins 3, Carl Herrera and Mark Madsen has 2…wins = awesomeness?

What win totals are you dreaming of for FVV in Houston, Poole in Washington, and Simons in Portland?

[Skybox]

Does it matter if the team wins? How far down the list of what matters does that go?

If they win 40 with Fultz,I can only dream of the win totals with a better fitting PG

Will Perdue has 4 rings, Dickey Simpkins 3, Carl Herrera and Mark Madsen has 2…wins = awesomeness?

What win totals are you dreaming of for FVV in Houston, Poole in Washington, and Simons in Portland?

Be something to see - any of them with Paolo & Franz

Better comp, would HOU win more with Fultz or FVV? Or, which of those guys would Fultz start ahead of?

* I’d actually like to try a Fultz/Simons backcourt…or even Fultz/Jett if the kid is ready to launch. Worth a look, we’re already here

[Bensational]

If they win 40 with Fultz,I can only dream of the win totals with a better fitting PG

Will Perdue has 4 rings, Dickey Simpkins 3, Carl Herrera and Mark Madsen has 2…wins = awesomeness?

What win totals are you dreaming of for FVV in Houston, Poole in Washington, and Simons in Portland?

Be something to see - any of them with Paolo & Franz

Better comp, would HOU win more with Fultz or FVV? Or, which of those guys would Fultz start ahead of?

* I’d actually like to try a Fultz/Simons backcourt…or even Fultz/Jett if the kid is ready to launch. Worth a look, we’re already here

That's a good question, and I genuinely think if Fultz were in Houston they'd start him ahead of Amen, and look to make changes/adjustments when Amen started looking ready for a larger role, and that means KPJ still gets displaced.

Fultz/Simons I'm not opposed to. Nor am I opposed to Simons. But I love Suggs and think he's poised for a special season.

I look at Fultz and Black as similar kinds of prospects as Ben Simmons, Marcus Smart, even Dennis Schröder. They aren't flashy offensive names, and in many ways their skillsets are almost considered incongruous to winning, but they've contributed to the growth and success of some of our current top teams. Most of those guys were moved after the team came close to tasting greatness, and were moved for 'better fitting' alternatives, but the results are TBC.

Schroder in particular is a PG that I think would probably do well on this team given his now championship experience with Franz and Moe - but Schroder is someone I also detest to watch play . Still, he's not a name that would excite many fans here, and his impact wouldn't show up in the stats, but it would show up in the results IMO.

[Skybox]

My point was more “would Fultz start over FVV?” (Assuming that’s the comparison)

I also think Suggs has another offensive gear (coming very soon)…so I dont really want to factor moving him or benching him, due to his elite defense and his always impactful big play presence. I just think he’s got “it”, so I prefer to get some scoring and floor spacing in the backcourt from the other spot…I just keep coming back to Fultz, largely for that reason. So two limited, maybe mismatched starting guards. If I’m picking one to accommodate, it’s Suggs and his elite defense, “confident” 3pt stroke, aggressive play overall, and lack of mysterious health issues and age. Contract status can’t be ignored either.

I don’t think Fultz is BAD…but he’s not a good fit with Paolo and he’s not a good fit with Suggs. Anybody is a good fit with Franz- he has such a complete game, he can work with anyone BUT Franz’ biggest strength is his driving to the hoop…so more floor spreading would be a plus. A green light 3-level scorer at SG could work with Fultz…but that’s really compromising, isn’t it? Two shooters is better…Guards should be able to shoot. A lot.

I’m not sure what to think of Black yet…I can build an intriguing case, but the fit questions are the same. I could see a Black/Jett or Black/Cole pairing, but it always comes back to “are his pluses intriguing & impactful to overshadow his one big critical minus?” It takes a special guy to do that…young Ben Simmons was All-NBA …but also All-Defense and a 6’10 freight train to the rim who could pile up assists.