Markelle Fultz

[ibraheim718]

Why Knicks fan cares about Magic?
Hypotetical conversations ,fits, what perfect fit would be. I know you can't grasp any of it. I mean, after all you said stats "bother you".

It's you that can't grasp fit. Are you from Orlando? What gives you more right to be here talking about the team than me? Do you own a stake in the team?

To the franchise my support looks the same as yours. They don't care about this trivial garbage you keep bringing up. I'm a Knicks fan.. yeah.. so what? I'm a Magic fan too because I ROOT for the Magic to win. Can you grasp that? I'm also a Nuggets fan. Get this through your thick head... I AM A BASKETBALL FAN. That's why I'm here and I'm not going anywhere. I may be here a part of this forum for the next 10 years. Deal with it.

I may be here a part of this forum for the next 10 years. Deal with it.

No, i won't ,welcome to foe list.

[Bensational]

The next stages of contractual changes will be:

2024 - Fultz, Harris, and Cole FAs, Ingles team option

2025 - Franz + Suggs up for extension, Isaac FA

2026 - Paolo up for extension, WCJ FA

2027 - AB + Jett up for extension

The summer of 2026 is when decisions will have to be made about balancing Paolo + Franz max extensions vs the rest of the team. Either by then we’ve loaded the team up with depth we can retain with bird rights and go over the cap, or we’ll be looking to make consolidation trades.

That’s a long on-ramp to sort out a lot of everyone’s concerns.

The contract timeline is interesting. Some really tough choices are coming. This team is going to get expensive, quick.

Not that quickly. And it only gets expensive if we have good players, IMO.

And when it comes time to really see some roster turnover to better surround Paolo and Franz just before or after their extensions, that’s when we’ll want salary on the books to trade more than cap space because players are changing teams through trade more than free agency these days.

[VFX]

Lol sure. Your post is quoted right there and you open with “this team has many timeframes of development” but never mention “contract dispersal relative to tenure” once. If you want to talk about cap space, then talk about cap space.

when we are talking about cap space %, contracts, and skill sets

Literally in the same post you are referring to.

It all matters. You are being disingenuous to parse these issues out like they aren’t all connected.

Like I’ve said before, I wouldn’t care whatsoever about Fultz’ shortcomings if he was actually a 3rd year player making a rookie scale contract matched with his development window. He’s not and won’t be.

This is why this thread is 80 pages long with people making absurd qualifying statements about how his fit with Paolo hinges more on Paolos upside than a player 7 seasons into the league, or that Orlando really just needs an extremely high volume SG to alleviate his gravity, or that we need to just wait another 3-4 seasons while shelling out money because this FO can’t make decisions.

No thanks. I’d rather they just realize who works with who and not spend 10 expensive years building a real roster because Magic Twitter liked a dunk.

The reason this thread is 80 pages is because you continuously move the goalposts and accuse other of doing so. So what goalposts are we in between now? “Timeframes of development” or “contractual dispersion”? Oh, NOW they’re all connected and one big set of goalposts that mysteriously move after one of your points gets shot down.

If you want to talk about contracts, talk about contracts. Show us when and where the team becomes financially stuck and with which players? I already started you off by breaking the following 3 seasons down. If you don’t want to break it down then just admit you’re scared of something you don’t understand.

I don’t know what you’re talking about regarding Paolo and Fultz’s fit. Yes, Paolo’s development and outcome will determine what the best fitting pieces around him will be and when they should be incorporated - be it Fultz, Suggs, Black, Franz or WCJ. I don’t think Paolo is ready to win if tasked to carry the team alone with Franz. I question how helpful it would be to him to bring in a veteran who would take possessions away from Paolo, especially if they’re a high volume scorer. In that case you could just as likely be building around the volume scorer instead of Paolo, so perhaps that’s the discussion you should be having? Why do you want to take shots and touches away from Paolo and Franz to give to another player who may or may not be here when they’re ready to compete? Don’t you believe in Paolo and Franz being able to carry the team?

Did I strike a nerve? This has already been discussed ad nauseam. I’ll break it down again for the millionth time.

Paolo and Franz ARE the cornerstones for this FO whether they, you, or I like it or not. They are getting maxed. Now stop. And read that again slowly so you can comprehend fully… ok got it? Great. With the new cap rules this makes it extremely difficult to maneuver if you are paying 2 guys max deals + whoever else is making near max. 3 guys at max will mean little to no depth to fill out a real roster. Is that complicated for you to understand?

Everything I’ve talked about is getting in front of that looming inevitability. Not this “let’s wait and see” horse- **** you keep backpedaling with along with this same 2-4 posters that don’t seem to understand.

Fultz and Cole are going to get paid BEFORE either of those guys will be maxed. Go ahead and read that again.. Now, the amount is unknown but you can start doing the cap space math and start looking at the rest of the roster in the meantime, depth notwithstanding. That IS contract and development based timeframe reasoning.

That means IF you are handing out these other contracts like candy you better KNOW 100% that these are the guys you know are worthy of developing and investing in next to your two max guys. You are wanting to gauge this experiment further. I don’t, based on how the skill sets mix with these two players. The chances this FO starts moving these larger contracts around after the fact for the perfect fit next to Paolo/Franz is far less likely, which is why none of these conversations are what you claim to be “fear mongering”. It’s just looking at the facts.

I simply DO NOT believe Fultz is worthy of a large percentage of cap IF we are all conceding that Franz and Paolo are THE guys moving forward. You will not change my mind on that through smug posts about whether “we know” everything or not. The absolute only thing that would change my stance on this is if Markelle Fultz, in a contract season, breaks away from every facet of his shortcomings and becomes a completely different player that I haven’t seen in 3 seasons worth of data. Highly improbable but not impossible.

Why does this need to be spelled out to you? You are obviously smart enough to read the tea leaves without being this dense and emotional when someone doesn’t agree with you.

[Bensational]

when we are talking about cap space %, contracts, and skill sets

Literally in the same post you are referring to.

It all matters. You are being disingenuous to parse these issues out like they aren’t all connected.

Like I’ve said before, I wouldn’t care whatsoever about Fultz’ shortcomings if he was actually a 3rd year player making a rookie scale contract matched with his development window. He’s not and won’t be.

This is why this thread is 80 pages long with people making absurd qualifying statements about how his fit with Paolo hinges more on Paolos upside than a player 7 seasons into the league, or that Orlando really just needs an extremely high volume SG to alleviate his gravity, or that we need to just wait another 3-4 seasons while shelling out money because this FO can’t make decisions.

No thanks. I’d rather they just realize who works with who and not spend 10 expensive years building a real roster because Magic Twitter liked a dunk.

The reason this thread is 80 pages is because you continuously move the goalposts and accuse other of doing so. So what goalposts are we in between now? “Timeframes of development” or “contractual dispersion”? Oh, NOW they’re all connected and one big set of goalposts that mysteriously move after one of your points gets shot down.

If you want to talk about contracts, talk about contracts. Show us when and where the team becomes financially stuck and with which players? I already started you off by breaking the following 3 seasons down. If you don’t want to break it down then just admit you’re scared of something you don’t understand.

I don’t know what you’re talking about regarding Paolo and Fultz’s fit. Yes, Paolo’s development and outcome will determine what the best fitting pieces around him will be and when they should be incorporated - be it Fultz, Suggs, Black, Franz or WCJ. I don’t think Paolo is ready to win if tasked to carry the team alone with Franz. I question how helpful it would be to him to bring in a veteran who would take possessions away from Paolo, especially if they’re a high volume scorer. In that case you could just as likely be building around the volume scorer instead of Paolo, so perhaps that’s the discussion you should be having? Why do you want to take shots and touches away from Paolo and Franz to give to another player who may or may not be here when they’re ready to compete? Don’t you believe in Paolo and Franz being able to carry the team?

Did I strike a nerve? This has already been discussed ad nauseam.

Paolo and Franz ARE the cornerstones for this FO whether they, you, or I like it or not. They are getting maxed. Now stop. And read that again slowly so you can comprehend fully… ok got it? Great. With the new cap rules this makes it extremely difficult to maneuver if you are paying 2 guys max deals + whoever else is making near max. 3 guys at max will mean little to no depth to fill out a real roster. Is that complicated for you to understand?

Everything I’ve talked about is getting in front of that looming inevitability. Not this “let’s wait and see” horse- **** you keep backpedaling with along with this same 2-4 posters that don’t seem to understand.

Fultz and Cole are going to get paid BEFORE either of those guys will be maxed. Go ahead and read that again.. Now, the amount is unknown but you can start doing the cap space math and start looking at the rest of the roster in the meantime, depth notwithstanding.

That means IF you are handing out these other contracts like candy you better KNOW 100% that these are the guys you know are worthy of developing and investing in next to your two max guys. You are wanting to gauge this experiment further. I don’t, based on how the skill sets mix with these two players.

I simply DO NOT believe Fultz is worthy of a large percentage of cap IF we are all conceding that Franz and Paolo are THE guys moving forward. You will not change my mind on that through smug posts about whether “we know” everything or not. The absolute only thing that would change my stance on this is if Markelle Fultz, in a contract season, breaks away from every facet of his shortcomings and becomes a completely different player that I haven’t seen in 3 seasons worth of data. Highly improbable but not impossible.

Why does this need to be spelled out to you? You are obviously smart enough to read the tea leaves without being this dense and emotional when someone doesn’t agree with you.

Lol. So you still can’t do the work and actually try to figure out where the cap space ‘problems’ arise. So now we’ll move the posts again and just blanket say “Fultz isn’t worth (an ambiguous) ‘large percentage’”.

Dude, you’ve complained about Fultz being the highest paid player on the team when he only makes $17M a season. You haven’t displayed any actual grasp of comprehending financial value in the league. So every excuse you’ve generated which has been countered all boils down to “you simply can’t convince me”. And you’ve spent how many posts complaining about people being disingenuous or needing things explained to them? You should start by explaining to yourself that all the bs you’ve been spouting in this thread has come from that one place of you simply not wanting Fultz on the team and not being prepared to accept the team outside of one small conditional circumstance.

You keep asking the question “why does this need to be explained to people?” - it’s because you don’t make sense. The crazy thoughts in your head don’t align with the reality the rest of us share, and that’s why these discussions end up going down a million different paths that all end with the realisation that your fears are unfounded.

[VFX]

The reason this thread is 80 pages is because you continuously move the goalposts and accuse other of doing so. So what goalposts are we in between now? “Timeframes of development” or “contractual dispersion”? Oh, NOW they’re all connected and one big set of goalposts that mysteriously move after one of your points gets shot down.

If you want to talk about contracts, talk about contracts. Show us when and where the team becomes financially stuck and with which players? I already started you off by breaking the following 3 seasons down. If you don’t want to break it down then just admit you’re scared of something you don’t understand.

I don’t know what you’re talking about regarding Paolo and Fultz’s fit. Yes, Paolo’s development and outcome will determine what the best fitting pieces around him will be and when they should be incorporated - be it Fultz, Suggs, Black, Franz or WCJ. I don’t think Paolo is ready to win if tasked to carry the team alone with Franz. I question how helpful it would be to him to bring in a veteran who would take possessions away from Paolo, especially if they’re a high volume scorer. In that case you could just as likely be building around the volume scorer instead of Paolo, so perhaps that’s the discussion you should be having? Why do you want to take shots and touches away from Paolo and Franz to give to another player who may or may not be here when they’re ready to compete? Don’t you believe in Paolo and Franz being able to carry the team?

Did I strike a nerve? This has already been discussed ad nauseam.

Paolo and Franz ARE the cornerstones for this FO whether they, you, or I like it or not. They are getting maxed. Now stop. And read that again slowly so you can comprehend fully… ok got it? Great. With the new cap rules this makes it extremely difficult to maneuver if you are paying 2 guys max deals + whoever else is making near max. 3 guys at max will mean little to no depth to fill out a real roster. Is that complicated for you to understand?

Everything I’ve talked about is getting in front of that looming inevitability. Not this “let’s wait and see” horse- **** you keep backpedaling with along with this same 2-4 posters that don’t seem to understand.

Fultz and Cole are going to get paid BEFORE either of those guys will be maxed. Go ahead and read that again.. Now, the amount is unknown but you can start doing the cap space math and start looking at the rest of the roster in the meantime, depth notwithstanding.

That means IF you are handing out these other contracts like candy you better KNOW 100% that these are the guys you know are worthy of developing and investing in next to your two max guys. You are wanting to gauge this experiment further. I don’t, based on how the skill sets mix with these two players.

I simply DO NOT believe Fultz is worthy of a large percentage of cap IF we are all conceding that Franz and Paolo are THE guys moving forward. You will not change my mind on that through smug posts about whether “we know” everything or not. The absolute only thing that would change my stance on this is if Markelle Fultz, in a contract season, breaks away from every facet of his shortcomings and becomes a completely different player that I haven’t seen in 3 seasons worth of data. Highly improbable but not impossible.

Why does this need to be spelled out to you? You are obviously smart enough to read the tea leaves without being this dense and emotional when someone doesn’t agree with you.

Lol. So you still can’t do the work and actually try to figure out where the cap space ‘problems’ arise. So now we’ll move the posts again and just blanket say “Fultz isn’t worth (an ambiguous) ‘large percentage’”.

Dude, you’ve complained about Fultz being the highest paid player on the team when he only makes $17M a season. You haven’t displayed any actual grasp of comprehending financial value in the league. So every excuse you’ve generated which has been countered all boils down to “you simply can’t convince me”. And you’ve spent how many posts complaining about people being disingenuous or needing things explained to them? You should start by explaining to yourself that all the bs you’ve been spouting in this thread has come from that one place of you simply not wanting Fultz on the team and not being prepared to accept the team outside of one small conditional circumstance.

You keep asking the question “why does this need to be explained to people?” - it’s because you don’t make sense. The crazy thoughts in your head don’t align with the reality the rest of us share, and that’s why these discussions end up going down a million different paths that all end with the realisation that your fears are unfounded.

I’ve been extremely consistent on this from the beginning. I have not changed my stance.

Fultz did not deserve the contract he currently has from the FO. He displayed nothing to be Orlando’s second highest paid player, after Isaac, based on his play at that time. That’s is factually true whether you like it or not.

I’ll concede Fultz has gotten better since landing in Orlando. That isn’t really saying much unfortunately.

As far as “proof” we have no actual numbers to go off, so what do you want me to do? Make random guesses so we can have endless hypothetical discussions that will waste both of our time? No thanks.

If it helps you sleep better… He’s not going to make less than his current cap % and I will venture to guess it will be the third highest contract on the team after Franz and Paolo are maxed. That is unless you think Cole will make more… which he isn’t.

It isn’t unfounded. It’s called looking at skill sets, 2 impending max contracts, an unfinished roster, and making reasonable assessments.

So why are you not responding to the other 6 paragraphs in my former post regarding all of this and why are you focusing on 3 sentences that make you feel bad?

[Bensational]

Did I strike a nerve? This has already been discussed ad nauseam.

Paolo and Franz ARE the cornerstones for this FO whether they, you, or I like it or not. They are getting maxed. Now stop. And read that again slowly so you can comprehend fully… ok got it? Great. With the new cap rules this makes it extremely difficult to maneuver if you are paying 2 guys max deals + whoever else is making near max. 3 guys at max will mean little to no depth to fill out a real roster. Is that complicated for you to understand?

Everything I’ve talked about is getting in front of that looming inevitability. Not this “let’s wait and see” horse- **** you keep backpedaling with along with this same 2-4 posters that don’t seem to understand.

Fultz and Cole are going to get paid BEFORE either of those guys will be maxed. Go ahead and read that again.. Now, the amount is unknown but you can start doing the cap space math and start looking at the rest of the roster in the meantime, depth notwithstanding.

That means IF you are handing out these other contracts like candy you better KNOW 100% that these are the guys you know are worthy of developing and investing in next to your two max guys. You are wanting to gauge this experiment further. I don’t, based on how the skill sets mix with these two players.

I simply DO NOT believe Fultz is worthy of a large percentage of cap IF we are all conceding that Franz and Paolo are THE guys moving forward. You will not change my mind on that through smug posts about whether “we know” everything or not. The absolute only thing that would change my stance on this is if Markelle Fultz, in a contract season, breaks away from every facet of his shortcomings and becomes a completely different player that I haven’t seen in 3 seasons worth of data. Highly improbable but not impossible.

Why does this need to be spelled out to you? You are obviously smart enough to read the tea leaves without being this dense and emotional when someone doesn’t agree with you.

Lol. So you still can’t do the work and actually try to figure out where the cap space ‘problems’ arise. So now we’ll move the posts again and just blanket say “Fultz isn’t worth (an ambiguous) ‘large percentage’”.

Dude, you’ve complained about Fultz being the highest paid player on the team when he only makes $17M a season. You haven’t displayed any actual grasp of comprehending financial value in the league. So every excuse you’ve generated which has been countered all boils down to “you simply can’t convince me”. And you’ve spent how many posts complaining about people being disingenuous or needing things explained to them? You should start by explaining to yourself that all the bs you’ve been spouting in this thread has come from that one place of you simply not wanting Fultz on the team and not being prepared to accept the team outside of one small conditional circumstance.

You keep asking the question “why does this need to be explained to people?” - it’s because you don’t make sense. The crazy thoughts in your head don’t align with the reality the rest of us share, and that’s why these discussions end up going down a million different paths that all end with the realisation that your fears are unfounded.

I’ve been extremely consistent on this from the beginning. I have not changed my stance.

Fultz did not deserve the contract he currently has from the FO. He displayed nothing to be Orlando’s second highest paid player, after Isaac, based on his play at that time. That’s is factually true whether you like it or not.

I’ll concede Fultz has gotten better since landing in Orlando. That isn’t really saying much unfortunately.

As far as “proof” we have no actual numbers to go off, so what do you want me to do? Make random guesses so we can have endless hypothetical discussions that will waste both of our time? No thanks.

If it helps you sleep better… He’s not going to make less than his current cap % and I will venture to guess it will be the third highest contract on the team after Franz and Paolo are maxed. That is unless you think Cole will make more… which he isn’t.

It isn’t unfounded. It’s called looking at skill sets, 2 impending max contracts, an unfinished roster, and making reasonable assessments.

So why are you not responding to the other 6 paragraphs in my former post regarding all of this and why are you focusing on 3 sentences that make you feel bad?

If you want to talk about consistency then why are you not driving an 80 page thread about Isaac and his contract which actually runs a year longer than Fultz, and who’s missed significantly more of his career than Fultz? It’s because the only contract on the team you have any thought about is Fultz.

There’s no point engaging with you on the other points you’re bringing into the discussion until you can make a convincing case for future cap ramifications. But you won’t even list what the current team’s cap is, what the future cap is, or anything that has some actual real detail to it. You hide behind headlines. Paolo and Franz will get max deals - do you even know what dollar figure is attached to that? Fultz will be the “third highest paid” - so what? If he’s paid at a comparable rate to what he is now then that’s not a problem. (And note that I say rate - meaning as a proportion of the cap. Do you know what % of the cap Fultz currently accounts for?).

If you want to say that salaries and cap space is the big concern, show why. Show us what an ideal salary cap situation will look like in the future.

It’s easy to make proclamations, it’s much harder to prove them.

[VFX]

Lol. So you still can’t do the work and actually try to figure out where the cap space ‘problems’ arise. So now we’ll move the posts again and just blanket say “Fultz isn’t worth (an ambiguous) ‘large percentage’”.

Dude, you’ve complained about Fultz being the highest paid player on the team when he only makes $17M a season. You haven’t displayed any actual grasp of comprehending financial value in the league. So every excuse you’ve generated which has been countered all boils down to “you simply can’t convince me”. And you’ve spent how many posts complaining about people being disingenuous or needing things explained to them? You should start by explaining to yourself that all the bs you’ve been spouting in this thread has come from that one place of you simply not wanting Fultz on the team and not being prepared to accept the team outside of one small conditional circumstance.

You keep asking the question “why does this need to be explained to people?” - it’s because you don’t make sense. The crazy thoughts in your head don’t align with the reality the rest of us share, and that’s why these discussions end up going down a million different paths that all end with the realisation that your fears are unfounded.

I’ve been extremely consistent on this from the beginning. I have not changed my stance.

Fultz did not deserve the contract he currently has from the FO. He displayed nothing to be Orlando’s second highest paid player, after Isaac, based on his play at that time. That’s is factually true whether you like it or not.

I’ll concede Fultz has gotten better since landing in Orlando. That isn’t really saying much unfortunately.

As far as “proof” we have no actual numbers to go off, so what do you want me to do? Make random guesses so we can have endless hypothetical discussions that will waste both of our time? No thanks.

If it helps you sleep better… He’s not going to make less than his current cap % and I will venture to guess it will be the third highest contract on the team after Franz and Paolo are maxed. That is unless you think Cole will make more… which he isn’t.

It isn’t unfounded. It’s called looking at skill sets, 2 impending max contracts, an unfinished roster, and making reasonable assessments.

So why are you not responding to the other 6 paragraphs in my former post regarding all of this and why are you focusing on 3 sentences that make you feel bad?

There’s no point engaging with you on the other points you’re bringing into the discussion until you can make a convincing case for future cap ramifications.

Paolo and Franz will get max deals - do you even know what dollar figure is attached to that? Fultz will be the “third highest paid” - so what?

It’s easy to make proclamations, it’s much harder to prove them.

I just laid it out 2 posts ago that you did not refute or even acknowledge.

You require numbers that don’t exist but you also can’t comprehend using simple deductive reasoning or logic regarding skill sets, contracts, and timeframes.

No problem. I won’t engage anymore with you on this topic because you aren’t to be taken seriously in regards to Fultz.

[Bensational]

I’ve been extremely consistent on this from the beginning. I have not changed my stance.

Fultz did not deserve the contract he currently has from the FO. He displayed nothing to be Orlando’s second highest paid player, after Isaac, based on his play at that time. That’s is factually true whether you like it or not.

I’ll concede Fultz has gotten better since landing in Orlando. That isn’t really saying much unfortunately.

As far as “proof” we have no actual numbers to go off, so what do you want me to do? Make random guesses so we can have endless hypothetical discussions that will waste both of our time? No thanks.

If it helps you sleep better… He’s not going to make less than his current cap % and I will venture to guess it will be the third highest contract on the team after Franz and Paolo are maxed. That is unless you think Cole will make more… which he isn’t.

It isn’t unfounded. It’s called looking at skill sets, 2 impending max contracts, an unfinished roster, and making reasonable assessments.

So why are you not responding to the other 6 paragraphs in my former post regarding all of this and why are you focusing on 3 sentences that make you feel bad?

There’s no point engaging with you on the other points you’re bringing into the discussion until you can make a convincing case for future cap ramifications.

Paolo and Franz will get max deals - do you even know what dollar figure is attached to that? Fultz will be the “third highest paid” - so what?

It’s easy to make proclamations, it’s much harder to prove them.

I just laid it out 2 posts ago that you did not refute or even acknowledge.

You require numbers that don’t exist but you also can’t comprehend using simple deductive reasoning or logic regarding skill sets, contracts, and timeframes.

No problem. I won’t engage anymore with you on this topic because you aren’t to be taken seriously in regards to Fultz.

You didn’t lay anything out. Numbers don’t exist? There’s no player with a contract that runs through 2026? No salary cap projections for the next few years? The numbers are out there, you just refuse to apply them because you know it will undermine your argument.

I’ve used deductive reasoning on all of the topics you covered which is why I’m comfortable with the team’s current direction. If you know who the best fit is for Paolo and Franz then say it. If you don’t know, then what are you arguing for if you don’t know what you’re arguing for?

[bigdogdylan5]

Lol I wonder after 80 pages has anyone actually changed their mind?

[VFX]

There’s no point engaging with you on the other points you’re bringing into the discussion until you can make a convincing case for future cap ramifications.

Paolo and Franz will get max deals - do you even know what dollar figure is attached to that? Fultz will be the “third highest paid” - so what?

It’s easy to make proclamations, it’s much harder to prove them.

I just laid it out 2 posts ago that you did not refute or even acknowledge.

You require numbers that don’t exist but you also can’t comprehend using simple deductive reasoning or logic regarding skill sets, contracts, and timeframes.

No problem. I won’t engage anymore with you on this topic because you aren’t to be taken seriously in regards to Fultz.

You didn’t lay anything out. Numbers don’t exist? There’s no player with a contract that runs through 2026? No salary cap projections for the next few years? The numbers are out there, you just refuse to apply them because you know it will undermine your argument.

I’ve used deductive reasoning on all of the topics you covered which is why I’m comfortable with the team’s current direction. If you know who the best fit is for Paolo and Franz then say it. If you don’t know, then what are you arguing for if you don’t know what you’re arguing for?

What % of cap are you “comfortable” with Fultz making, as the starting point guard, assuming Paolo and Franz WILL 100% be maxed?

You did not respond.

You went into discussing what Fultz contract price is going to be (we don’t have this information yet) and then went into my post history on this thread, talk of moving goalposts, and that everything is unfounded.

Cole and Fultz will be resigned before Franz and Paolo.

Paolo and Franz will make “max” on the current year.

Whatever Fultz makes will be more difficult to move after a larger contract.

I (emphasis on I) dont believe Fultz skillset is good combined with those 2 max deals FOR THE MONEY tied up in those players.

Nothing out of those statements is untrue. Be mad about it if you want.

[dsg2021]

The Magic are not stuck between a rock and a hard place with their cap sheet at all, but they will be in 1-3 seasons if they start trying to retain everyone on the current roster left and right.

Granted, if they get a contract value they love, they might not be able to pass it up, like Cole at 10 mil per, 4 years total when he blows up a bit 2 years into it. Because that’s just good asset value for trading.

But the FO is definitely on the hot seat. For me, if they retain everyone now, 3 seasons from now.. OR if they do no big trade or big signing before Franz and Banchero’s big/max contracts are both on the sheets.. then I’m decided to want out of this FO and keep watching or visiting my Round 1 Magic less and less. Until the next FO.

(They maybe could hold two maxes with cap and picks flexibility but not sure I’ve seen anyone do it. Banchero and Franz might be on a bare team a couple seasons in the hopes of a big roster acquisition via in any way.)

[anothermagicfan]

I think Magic need both: starting level PG and SG.

Even when you look at landscape of contenders, always at least 1 of guards is allstar caliber player.

Nuggets- Murray & KCP ( Murray plays like bonefied start in playoffs)
Celtics- Jrue & White - Jrue is allstar ( could easly count Brown as part time SG as well)
Warriors- no need to waste time
Bucks- superstar and allstar
Suns- Beal & Booker
Heat- Herro & Butler


It is what it is. You simply need elite ballhandler. Last nba champion without allstar level PG were Miami Heat decade ago.

Right now ,we have bunch of below average starters/okey bench players competing for PG-SG spots. Can somebody turn into more? Maybe. But there isn't much evidence of it so far.

We can be a little different becouse we have 2 ball handling forwards. We need shooting and defense.

Lebron is 6'8 ballhandling forward, one of best to ever do it, yet he won 3 out of 4 rings with elite ballhandling guards along side him.

It's simply easier to have good offense when guard(s) is /are great.

I've been talking about that in past a lot. Only ultra uber mega elite guards suceed in nba. Because if you are 7 footer you really don't have to be that skilled. If you are 6'8, it requires little bit more skills but not as much.

But if you are some sub 6'5 person, litearlly your competition is made out of millions of players of your size.

To me it's without question what position requires most skill to play. It's ballhandler guard in nba.


Franz as ballhandler, to me, really doesn't do much. Last year we struggled a lot when we tried to initiate offense off him. We would lose 12-14 sec to even get into proper set. Franz is great player and will have great career, but not as ballhandler.

Banchero shot 41% FG off pick&rolls as ballhandler and his P&R was below 50th percentile. He will get better. But guy is skilled 6'10 person weighting 250 pounds. It simply makes more sense to play him as roller, not handler.

Banchero also has problem where he is very poor shooter off pullups, so if he is handler, teams will just go under screen. And he won't punish them. He shot 35% from pullups and 26% for 3. Again, this will get better, but not any time soon. In preseason he still was incapable of shooting from range with any accuracy (0-4 for 3 ) . World cup, shorter range, same problem. 2/6 for 3 over 7 games.

Im curious on yours and others thoughts on this specifically. Touching on Bancheros abilities and roles and strengths and weaknesses as the most likely star of the team with franz as the other star if you will. I agree about Banchero as a guy that should absolutely be setting more picks and being the roll guy vs being the ball handler. Banchero is big and strong and fast and showed he has the ability to be one of the best in the league in the near future at getting to the line and getting buckets. Fultz is a decent ball handler and he does finish his 2 point attempts at a pretty high percentage. Franz and WCJ along with Gary Harris are all respectable 3 point shooters correct? Now Gary Harris might not be the long-term guy at the 2, it looks like it could be suggs and *if* his 3 is good would a offense around fultz and Banchero running pick and roll with franz, WCJ and either Harris or suggs or even jetts shooting be enough ball handling, attacking and spacing to explore?

[Bensational]

I just laid it out 2 posts ago that you did not refute or even acknowledge.

You require numbers that don’t exist but you also can’t comprehend using simple deductive reasoning or logic regarding skill sets, contracts, and timeframes.

No problem. I won’t engage anymore with you on this topic because you aren’t to be taken seriously in regards to Fultz.

You didn’t lay anything out. Numbers don’t exist? There’s no player with a contract that runs through 2026? No salary cap projections for the next few years? The numbers are out there, you just refuse to apply them because you know it will undermine your argument.

I’ve used deductive reasoning on all of the topics you covered which is why I’m comfortable with the team’s current direction. If you know who the best fit is for Paolo and Franz then say it. If you don’t know, then what are you arguing for if you don’t know what you’re arguing for?

What % of cap are you “comfortable” with Fultz making, as the starting point guard, assuming Paolo and Franz WILL 100% be maxed?

You did not respond.

You went into discussing what Fultz contract price is going to be (we don’t have this information yet) and then went into my post history on this thread, talk of moving goalposts, and that everything is unfounded.

Cole and Fultz will be resigned before Franz and Paolo.

Paolo and Franz will make “max” on the current year.

Whatever Fultz makes will be more difficult to move after a larger contract.

I (emphasis on I) dont believe Fultz skillset is good combined with those 2 max deals FOR THE MONEY tied up in those players.

Nothing out of those statements is untrue. Be mad about it if you want.

Asking me to answer a question you can’t answer isn’t you answering the question. You’re asking me to commit to a salary when my position is and always has been - let Fultz play out the season then we’ll decide.

Nothing you said is grounded in today’s reality. When did we resign Fultz and Cole? Oh right, the season hasn’t even started yet… Paolo and Franz will make max on the current year? What is that supposed to mean? That stuff certainly is untrue. If Fultz and Cole were a lock to be resigned they’d already be signed. The fact their futures are undecided makes the whole basis of your premise untrue nonsense.

Sorry if the facts are getting in the way of your fears.

[VFX]

You didn’t lay anything out. Numbers don’t exist? There’s no player with a contract that runs through 2026? No salary cap projections for the next few years? The numbers are out there, you just refuse to apply them because you know it will undermine your argument.

I’ve used deductive reasoning on all of the topics you covered which is why I’m comfortable with the team’s current direction. If you know who the best fit is for Paolo and Franz then say it. If you don’t know, then what are you arguing for if you don’t know what you’re arguing for?

What % of cap are you “comfortable” with Fultz making, as the starting point guard, assuming Paolo and Franz WILL 100% be maxed?

You did not respond.

You went into discussing what Fultz contract price is going to be (we don’t have this information yet) and then went into my post history on this thread, talk of moving goalposts, and that everything is unfounded.

Cole and Fultz will be resigned before Franz and Paolo.

Paolo and Franz will make “max” on the current year.

Whatever Fultz makes will be more difficult to move after a larger contract.

I (emphasis on I) dont believe Fultz skillset is good combined with those 2 max deals FOR THE MONEY tied up in those players.

Nothing out of those statements is untrue. Be mad about it if you want.

Asking me to answer a question you can’t answer isn’t you answering the question. You’re asking me to commit to a salary when my position is and always has been - let Fultz play out the season then we’ll decide.

Nothing you said is grounded in today’s reality. When did we resign Fultz and Cole? Oh right, the season hasn’t even started yet… Paolo and Franz will make max on the current year? What is that supposed to mean? That stuff certainly is untrue. If Fultz and Cole were a lock to be resigned they’d already be signed. The fact their futures are undecided makes the whole basis of your premise untrue nonsense.

Sorry if the facts are getting in the way of your fears.

I was planning on responding to all of this in a lengthy post, but I remembered it’s not worth it anymore on this topic with you.

Some people NEED everything to happen before any kind of observation takes place. No point in looking at obvious outcomes based on patterns and logic.

We can revisit this thread when most of what I’m talking about takes place so we can have a grown up conversation. Until then, have a great week.

[pepe1991]

The Magic are not stuck between a rock and a hard place with their cap sheet at all, but they will be in 1-3 seasons if they start trying to retain everyone on the current roster left and right.

Granted, if they get a contract value they love, they might not be able to pass it up, like Cole at 10 mil per, 4 years total when he blows up a bit 2 years into it. Because that’s just good asset value for trading.

But the FO is definitely on the hot seat. For me, if they retain everyone now, 3 seasons from now.. OR if they do no big trade or big signing before Franz and Banchero’s big/max contracts are both on the sheets.. then I’m decided to want out of this FO and keep watching or visiting my Round 1 Magic less and less. Until the next FO.

(They maybe could hold two maxes with cap and picks flexibility but not sure I’ve seen anyone do it. Banchero and Franz might be on a bare team a couple seasons in the hopes of a big roster acquisition via in any way.)

Execlly this. Cole and Fultz will be expensive to retain.
Franz will sign his designed max next summer, but it won't kick in until 2025-26. Banchero's max will kickstart in 2026-27.

Suggs will be free agent in mean time, and by 2026-27 both current rookies will be playing last year of their rookie contracts.

Most people say "cap will grow". But designed rookie exstensions are tied with cap. So let's say cap for 2024-25 is $142M ( current projection) , Franz first year salary will be $35,5M.
And under same rules ( 25% of salary) Banchero signs one year after, and salary goes to some $152M , his starting salary is $38M. If he does something that would put him into Derrick Rose rule, his starting salary would raise to $46M.


So there you go, in several years, if Cole gets his $18-22M and Fultz his $25-27M , and Franz and Banchero sign their expected contracts, Magic would have $130M tied into 4 players. Add fact both current rookies, Wendell, Suggs and just about any other new rookie isn't counted in. Just 4 players making $130M.


In all that, you also need to seek for roster improvments. This year is yet another "wait and see" year. That's part of front office's MO. Most of years we do nothing.

[zaymon]

I was planning on responding to all of this in a lengthy post, but I remembered it’s not worth it anymore on this topic with you.

Some people NEED everything to happen before any kind of observation takes place. No point in looking at obvious outcomes based on patterns and logic.

We can revisit this thread when most of what I’m talking about takes place so we can have a grown up conversation. Until then, have a great week.

Its a scheme you cant stop. Some people just dont change opinions based on evidence. Some people could predict where Bamba carrier is going and some people stick to him to the bitter end blaming covid, coaches, front office and aliens.
Exactly same thing with Fultz. Some people changed their opinion after year, some after two and rest will stick to their opinion until LA Lakers will not resign him. People who are able to change their opinions did it already.

[pepe1991]

I was planning on responding to all of this in a lengthy post, but I remembered it’s not worth it anymore on this topic with you.

Some people NEED everything to happen before any kind of observation takes place. No point in looking at obvious outcomes based on patterns and logic.

We can revisit this thread when most of what I’m talking about takes place so we can have a grown up conversation. Until then, have a great week.

Its a scheme you cant stop. Some people just dont change opinions based on evidence. Some people could predict where Bamba carrier is going and some people stick to him to the bitter end blaming covid, coaches, front office and aliens.
Exactly same thing with Fultz. Some people changed their opinion after year, some after two and rest will stick to their opinion until LA Lakers will not resign him. People who are able to change their opinions did it already.

Clifford getting blamed for Bamba was one of worst narratives here.

[basketballRob]

The Magic are not stuck between a rock and a hard place with their cap sheet at all, but they will be in 1-3 seasons if they start trying to retain everyone on the current roster left and right.

Granted, if they get a contract value they love, they might not be able to pass it up, like Cole at 10 mil per, 4 years total when he blows up a bit 2 years into it. Because that’s just good asset value for trading.

But the FO is definitely on the hot seat. For me, if they retain everyone now, 3 seasons from now.. OR if they do no big trade or big signing before Franz and Banchero’s big/max contracts are both on the sheets.. then I’m decided to want out of this FO and keep watching or visiting my Round 1 Magic less and less. Until the next FO.

(They maybe could hold two maxes with cap and picks flexibility but not sure I’ve seen anyone do it. Banchero and Franz might be on a bare team a couple seasons in the hopes of a big roster acquisition via in any way.)

Execlly this. Cole and Fultz will be expensive to retain.
Franz will sign his designed max next summer, but it won't kick in until 2025-26. Banchero's max will kickstart in 2026-27.

Suggs will be free agent in mean time, and by 2026-27 both current rookies will be playing last year of their rookie contracts.

Most people say "cap will grow". But designed rookie exstensions are tied with cap. So let's say cap for 2024-25 is $142M ( current projection) , Franz first year salary will be $35,5M.
And under same rules ( 25% of salary) Banchero signs one year after, and salary goes to some $152M , his starting salary is $38M. If he does something that would put him into Derrick Rose rule, his starting salary would raise to $46M.


So there you go, in several years, if Cole gets his $18-22M and Fultz his $25-27M , and Franz and Banchero sign their expected contracts, Magic would have $130M tied into 4 players. Add fact both current rookies, Wendell, Suggs and just about any other new rookie isn't counted in. Just 4 players making $130M.


In all that, you also need to seek for roster improvments. This year is yet another "wait and see" year. That's part of front office's MO. Most of years we do nothing.

DLo just signed for $18m per season. I'm not sure why Fultz would get $25m, and Cole would get $18m.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

[mattdelray1220]

Call me crazy but I think it will be quite simple what the Magic will do in this situation. That is if they like what is going on and see the progression OR don't push the chips in the make a push for a 3rd star.

They will overpay Fultz and Cole on team friendly short term deals. They did it with Moe and Ingles already. Obviously will be more money and probably an extra year.

I see something like Fultz 2yr + 1 team option years 60-70mil and Cole 2yr + 1 team option 40-50mil

I think they can potentially pull this off for a few reasons.

1. The market doesn't value either of these guys as much as we do. Half the NBA teams have a better or at least comparable PG and 6th man. How many teams realistically would offer these 2 more than that? We may get them even cheaper than I stated above.

2. They both love Orlando and love what we are building. If anything, this team has 10/10 camaraderie. Hopefully it turns to wins but you can tell these guys genuinely like one another. Cole would be swayed I am sure if he was offered the starting gig but again, how many teams would do that? 2-4?

Keeping the flexibility is exactly what this FO is trying to do and I think will continue to do until they either blow it up or push the chips in.

[Skybox]

This FO has been very successful in their short-term team-friendly commitments. If they can keep Fultz on that kind of "always expiring if we want it" short-term deal, then it shouldn't impact future cap too much. The idea that we can lock Markelle up for a 4 year deal and just easily move it if it's determined that he's not THE guy for this team is inaccurate...If he continues to play the same way and is making $20m, there's absolutely no guarantee that some other team will even take him without a pick added (think Bertans, etc) - he would certainly be a negative value player...all of these cap implications for a couple of years down the road are real and need to influence any deals that are offered today. I feel like Cole will always have a place because he can score in bunches...he may become more, but even where he is-he's useful and, therefore, movable. Fultz, on the other hand, doesn't really project as a FA target or have trade value - except now as an expiring $17m piece of paper.

Project today's Markelle Fultz as an UFA in a few months...who is chasing him? Do not bid against yourself and do NOT commit to something that doesn't fit.