Official Speculation Thread ‘17-18’: XVIII: The Long Wait Continues

[pepe1991]

But pepe.... Evan and Vuc ARE soft Euros. You can't hate that. It's not an attack on all Euros.

What makes Vučević or Evan more soft than any other Magic player?

2 years ago Evan lead team in FTA so it's not like he runs away from contact.

Few years ago Vuc was top 5 in offensive rebounds.

Also most of fans are "tired " of Evan after 5 years, same people will never point out that Gordon and Evan spent same lenght of time with Magic.

Most people here "love" how Isaac shoots mid range shots, hate it when Vučević does it.

I have no desire to call out anybody or make big thing about this, but double standards are running wild through this forum for years.

Gordon and Isaac play defense and bring energy to the court.

There is no single proof, ever, that at any point of his career Gordon has been better defender than Vučević.
It's just subjective opinion treated as fact by most fans.

Matter of fact apart from second season, Gordon as been definition of medicote- to bad defender for whole career ( 4 years, not big sample size,but still ).

Energy is another subjective factor. You can't measure will to play. There are players who look bored to death and produce more and better than " look at me i play hard" players ,case and point, Duncan vs any PF/C from 00s

In general NBA is filled with fake tought guys, bunch of silly MFrs who can't throw punch to save their lifes and as Jalen Rose once said " -goes behind his teammate and starts yelling don't hold me" -while his teammate is like " dude i ain't even touching you )

[PennytoShaq]

Also most of fans are "tired " of Evan after 5 years, same people will never point out that Gordon and Evan spent same lenght of time with Magic.

Most people here "love" how Isaac shoots mid range shots, hate it when Vučević does it.

I have no desire to call out anybody or make big thing about this, but double standards are running wild through this forum for years.

I am convinced you just like to stir things up here.

This is pretty funny stuff, I cant even hate on it. It cracked me up.

[SOUL]

There's no way Gordon has been a "bad" defender here lol.. what?

He has obvious players that he struggles with, but we've also seen him completely lock down Durant and elite players during other games. I think our schemes have been poor as a whole defensively, but Gordon, for his position, is a solid defender.

And I guarantee if Isaac was here for 6 years still shooting mid-range shots and being the same player that he was, people would be tired of it. Context matters. You can't say how people are getting unfairly hated on when it's been a staple on this team, and the team has been losing, and then compare it with a 1-2 year player doing the same thing and asking why they aren't getting the same treatment. It's obvious why.

Also think Fournier gets off light here. If anybody else was having his preseason (god forbid AG was doing that), the board would be going nuclear. I don't think it's something people should be going crazy about until it spills over into the season, but just saying.

[Skin]

There's no way Gordon has been a "bad" defender here lol.. what?

He has obvious players that he struggles with, but we've also seen him completely lock down Durant and elite players during other games. I think our schemes have been poor as a whole defensively, but Gordon, for his position, is a solid defender.

And I guarantee if Isaac was here for 6 years still shooting mid-range shots and being the same player that he was, people would be tired of it. Context matters. You can't say how people are getting unfairly hated on when it's been a staple on this team, and the team has been losing, and then compare it with a 1-2 year player doing the same thing and asking why they aren't getting the same treatment. It's obvious why.

Also think Fournier gets off light here. If anybody else was having his preseason (god forbid AG was doing that), the board would be going nuclear. I don't think it's something people should be going crazy about until it spills over into the season, but just saying.

SOUL with the TRUTH HAMMER.

[j-ragg]

The older I get the more I can’t stand the sweeping generalizations either. But Vuc is probably the softest starting center in the league. Fournier is kinda soft sometimes but at his position I don’t really care if he’s an enforcer or a shooter who doesn’t like contact.

For what it’s worth most of the team is pretty soft, especially mentally. Except for Afflalo last year throwing haymakers lol.

[PrimeThyme]

There is zero evidence that points to AG ever being a mediocre defender for us. He had the biggest impact on opponents fg% on the team last year && was in the 98th percentile in post defense (arguably the best post defender in the NBA last year).

Is he an unengaged defender at times? Yes, that is a legitimate argument. He had outstanding defense against better offensive players last year (shut down towns, Simmons, Carmelo, etc) but played down to his opponent and wasnt engaged against mediocre players (Burned by RHJ, Lance Thomas, ETC) and was burned for it. When engaged he is an elite defender period. If Clifford can get him to play 100% and respect his opponent all the time that will show this year. It’s just blatant bias and agenda to say otherwise, but I come to expect that from the AG haters on this board.

Spoiler:

https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-overall/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612753&dir=-1&sort=PCT_PLUSMINUS
https://stats.nba.com/team/1610612753/matchups/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Matchup=Defense&CF=DEF_PLAYER_NAME*E*Gordon&PerMode=Totals

[VFX]

There is zero evidence that points to AG ever being a mediocre defender for us. He had the biggest impact on opponents fg% on the team last year && was in the 98th percentile in post defense (arguably the best post defender in the NBA last year).

Is he a unengaed defender at times? Yes, that is a legitimate argument. He had outstanding defense against better offensive players last year (shut down towns, Simmons, Carmelo, etc) but played down to his opponent and wasnt engaged against mediocre players (Burned by RHJ, Lance Thomas, ETC) and was burned for it. When engaged he is an elite defender period. If Clifford can get him to play 100% and respect his opponent all the time that will show this year. It’s just blatant bias and agenda to say otherwise, but I come to expect that from the AG haters on this board.

Spoiler:

https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-overall/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612753&dir=-1&sort=PCT_PLUSMINUS
https://stats.nba.com/team/1610612753/

You could criticize AG for anything else about his game, but defensive aptitude? Nah.

[Skin]

Clifford 'gon make AG reach the All-NBA Defensive team!

[OrlandO]

The story of AG's defense has two sides. He's been a solid on-ball/individual defender, but he's also been a bad off-ball/team defender. Looking at the whole picture, I would say he's been average overall. We'll see what Cliff can get out of him from the SF slot this season...

[MagicStarwipe]

I wouldn't say Evan is soft. Vuc is one of the softest guys going around though. He folds like a chair whenever he faces the physically imposing bigs of the league.

[MagicFan4Lyfe]

I wouldn't say Evan is soft. Vuc is one of the softest guys going around though. He folds like a chair whenever he faces the physically imposing bigs of the league.

I agree. I've said this for years now that Fournier's best role is as a 6th man or a solid bench player. He is being thrust into a starting role because of a lack of talent on the roster. But I have never questioned Evan's hustle or passion. Vuc on the other hand has numerous times taken plays off on the defensive end and allowed players to go to the basket unchallenged. Not sure if its a lack of hustle or drive or whatever. What irks me is his post game comments saying "we need to play better" etc. etc. Come on man... the buck stops with you.

Thats why I am rooting for Bamba to eventually start this season and relegate Vuc to the bench or gone via a trade. I just want to see the team play hard and hustle.

[MagicFan4Lyfe]

There's no way Gordon has been a "bad" defender here lol.. what?

He has obvious players that he struggles with, but we've also seen him completely lock down Durant and elite players during other games. I think our schemes have been poor as a whole defensively, but Gordon, for his position, is a solid defender.

And I guarantee if Isaac was here for 6 years still shooting mid-range shots and being the same player that he was, people would be tired of it. Context matters. You can't say how people are getting unfairly hated on when it's been a staple on this team, and the team has been losing, and then compare it with a 1-2 year player doing the same thing and asking why they aren't getting the same treatment. It's obvious why.

Also think Fournier gets off light here. If anybody else was having his preseason (god forbid AG was doing that), the board would be going nuclear. I don't think it's something people should be going crazy about until it spills over into the season, but just saying.

Agree. AG has never been a "lock down" defender but he has always held his own against the competition. I have never questioned AG's motor- just his offensive decision making. However, I am hoping with Clifford being a SVG disciple that he will install defensive fundamentals in AG and possible AG can challenge for future All defensive team awards.

[PrimeThyme]

I encourage people to go read the full Q&A that Kennedy had with Hanlen (Bambas trainer), but I came across one quote in particular that almost made me jump out of my seat when I read it during the part he talked about working with Mo:

https://hoopshype.com/2018/07/29/nba-offseason-training-joel-embiid-gordon-hayward-jayson-tatum-markelle-fultz/

We worked a lot on his low-post and mid-post moves; I don’t think you’ll see him do too much low-post stuff this year, just because he still has to improve his strength. I think you’ll see him weighing 40-to-50 pounds heavier in the next three-to-five years.

At the end of the day, this is Bambas trainer, so I think there is a lot that can be taken from this quote. I think Drew really envisions Bamba bulking up the same way that Embiid did and I think that will be the plan they set in place for Bamba going forward. His broad shoulders, 7-1 height, and huge wingspan makes me think he can definitely support that kind of weight. He is going to be a monster.

[pepe1991]

NIkola Vučević worst defensvie rating as Magic player - 105, best 103
Worst DBPM -0,1 , best + 2,3

Gordon
worst def rating 111, best 105
worst DBPM -0,4 ,best 1,2


So at his worst season Vučević impact on defense by def rating was as bad as Gordon in his best.


I said Gordon is medicore to bad defnder whole his career apart from second season. When you isolate his 2# season, he is career -0,2 DBPM, - 2,0 OBPM, 108,33 DEF rating player on 52% TS on offense.

Easly most overrated Magic player by Magic fans in last decade.
Don't @me.


Evan is having bad preseason.
PRE season.
there is good reason why nobody overreacts.
Guy has been best Magic offensive player for 4 years. Even when Oladipo was here he was better than him, Dipo just found another gear on another team later.

Btw nobody still didn't defined "soft" , does that mean being white and having family ? Or you would find him tough if he has arsenal of weapons and he is drunk,shirtless ,trying to hit on Rihanna in the club in between back to back games?

I had zero desire to engage this debate about "soft" i just hate "euro soft" term. How many reports would i get over 5min if i call all africo-american players thugs? Just anti semitic ,dumb, flat out lazy , insulting bull****.

[SOUL]

pepe bro.. tbh you used to be a better poster when you didn't become some pro-Euro poster.. honestly like a different person now. We all have our biases but if anything you're only defending European players to this extent. I know I'll accept any player on my team that I think can offer it value for now and in the future, I just simply don't think Vucevic has that value anymore. You used to post about Vucevic's faults quite openly and then one day you switched your views entirely, and it's not like he changed as a player. I have only seen you openly defend guys like Mario, Vuc, and Fournier with the voracity you did in that post. I know you like Bamba but even the posts I've seen lately you're kinda pumping the breaks on expectations and I can see you sort of doing a 180 with him too.

Look at the posts after your post. There's examples there where people are saying that Fournier isn't soft and he's a Euro, so not sure why you're equating Vucevic being called soft is like a black person being a thug.. Vuc is soft because he's soft lol. He is not intimidating in the slightest and never has been. Nobody called Gortat soft while he played here. Nobody has called Laimbeer (American but white) soft back in the day. Hell, nobody even called Darko soft when he was here, just more that he was bad. People call Bargnani soft because he is, same with Vucevic. Some of that stuff you just don't have in your DNA, and it has nothing to do with skin color.

Also on the DBPM stats:

______________

"This is not a great hindrance on the offensive side, as nearly everything of importance on offense is captured by the box score (only missing things like screen-setting), but on defense the box score is quite limited. Blocks, steals, and rebounds, along with minutes and what little information offensive numbers yield about defensive performance are all that is available. Such critical components of defense as positioning, communication, and the other factors that make Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan elite on defense can't be captured, unfortunately."

______________

It's very kind to Vucevic because of what's bolded, and until last year, AG has never been a big steals/blocks and rebounder at the level of Vucevic. He simply locks his position (SFs, mostly) down and contests shots. Not perfect by any means, but he is disruptive. People have acknowledged that Vucevic is also an adequate man-to-man defender, but his paint defense vs almost any position is simply put, quite awful. 3rd worst paint defender in the league and the players that are next to him like Jokic are way better than him on offense. We can blame the guards or forwards all we want, but at some point, you have to realize that people are driving so often because nobody is scared of Vucevic and we will see the difference in a year when Bamba is out there with more muscle and is going to deter people from going down there sort of like Gobert. The rules have made it almost impossible for there to be real impact guards out there, there's maybe like 3-4 in the entire league that make their mark defensively. The rest are just average or bad. Vucevic is a good player, a good guy, and like I stated before, the blame is not on him solely. He's only a small percentage of what has caused this team to go wrong. But the longer we stay with him as the first option on offense and the anchor of our defense in the paint, we're going to go through more tough times.

(Also Payton has posted some nice DBPM stats that nobody would accept here, so I dunno man.)

[pepe1991]

Soul, i don't even like Vučević, but not because of his skin color or place of birth or label him as "soft" because he is that.
I find him being-starting level C on team that should rebuild and has no need to keep him.
I never even called him great at anything. Ever.


Evan is really good shooter that could find playing time on most contenders. But. To me he is overpayed for what he is. I would prefer him on $12M contract over $17M one.

Over time i get fed up with Vuc- Evan offense ( bromance ) and when i reach that point i express my feelings toward that. On OPP i was almost banned for saying Evan and Skiles should get a room

Imo most posters today, entering 2018-19 season are fed up with Vučević because they view him as some bad guy that takes PT from Bamba. And i can understand that, but in same time i can understand why somebody like Clifford will try to win as much games this year and therfore needs Vučević as starter, on team with limited offense.


As from my "Euro bias" , only Euro player i ever loved was Petrovic, my hometown hero and reason i started watching basketball. I like Šarić because i know him in "real" life. I could not give a flying F about 99,99% of others . I just can't stand "Euro soft " crap. Is Giannis soft or it does not count for ones who are black? Is Gobert soft? Marc Gasol was DPOY, not something you can achive as soft .

I agree that defense is hard to measure, but over 4 years looking at defensive rating of one player, that never gets any better is telling. Problem with Magic C defense, no matter who plays C , is fact that Payton , Watson, Jennings now DJ Augustin are so damn terrible that they make it impossible for Ibaka, Bamba, Vučević, Biyombo ,Birch or whoever plays C at that moment to recover. Not to mention that most people have unrealistic expetations from switch defense where they think "can guard" and "should guard " are same thing. Last year i was loosing my mind with Vogel defense because players were switching into missmatches like fools for no good reason other than " Vogel is modern, he plays switch defense" .

Ibaka in 2015 was player who defended most iso plays in nba, and did admirable job. Goes to Magic and can't defend? Why? Well , going from Westbrook to Payton does that to a player. Still looks solid ( not as great as with OKC ) with Lowry.

[SOUL]

I think most peoples frustrations with Vucevic is less with Vucevic himself and just how we've been holding onto him in the same position for so long. Not his fault at all, because it's not like we expect he's going to turn into a complete opposite player than he is, but after a while.. people do get sort of tired of players. Jameer got a lot of the same comments towards the end of his career here (I remember, I was one of the few that still wanted to keep him), it's just bound to happen.

But I agree with "Euro = soft" comments being crap. Same with not wanting to draft a European player like Doncic because Hezonja didn't work out. I saw those comments and disagreed with it a lot.

Vogel's schemes sucked last year and it showed why he needed Dan Burke on defense. At least it makes sense more now. Dwight didn't have great perimeter defenders and made it work, so I think that Isaac and Bamba will improve our team in that area no matter who is our guards. I won't disagree that by the end, Payton simply was not a good defender at keeping guys in front of him often. However, because of his size, he did well as soon as they tried to back him down, as well as switching on to bigger guards, he wasn't bad.

But with DJ here it's going to be more of the same because he's small and has no real defensive instincts. Going to need the team to play good team defense but TBH I'm still seeing same weak attempts from Vucevic when he is forced to defend round the rim. We'll see. At least he has always been a "bigger" guy, so the weaker big men have a hard time backing him up once their back is turned.

[DiplomaticMagic]

Wow, we really considered Chuck for Prez?

I think he would be turrible at it, but damn if he isn't one of my favorite people.

Would have been entertaining for sure.

[pepe1991]

I think most peoples frustrations with Vucevic is less with Vucevic himself and just how we've been holding onto him in the same position for so long. Not his fault at all, because it's not like we expect he's going to turn into a complete opposite player than he is, but after a while.. people do get sort of tired of players. Jameer got a lot of the same comments towards the end of his career here (I remember, I was one of the few that still wanted to keep him), it's just bound to happen.

But I agree with "Euro = soft" comments being crap. Same with not wanting to draft a European player like Doncic because Hezonja didn't work out. I saw those comments and disagreed with it a lot.

Vogel's schemes sucked last year and it showed why he needed Dan Burke on defense. At least it makes sense more now. Dwight didn't have great perimeter defenders and made it work, so I think that Isaac and Bamba will improve our team in that area no matter who is our guards. I won't disagree that by the end, Payton simply was not a good defender at keeping guys in front of him often. However, because of his size, he did well as soon as they tried to back him down, as well as switching on to bigger guards, he wasn't bad.

But with DJ here it's going to be more of the same because he's small and has no real defensive instincts. Going to need the team to play good team defense but TBH I'm still seeing same weak attempts from Vucevic when he is forced to defend round the rim. We'll see. At least he has always been a "bigger" guy, so the weaker big men have a hard time backing him up once their back is turned.

Dwight didn't have great perimeter defenders and made it work, so I think that Isaac and Bamba will improve our team in that area no matter who is our guards.

Dwight was athletic freak and mobile as hell ( not to mention Ironman as well). He also benefited from pretty bad PGs from East in his prime.
Kidd, Rondo were not agressive PGs on offense ( or at least not scoring treats ), Iverson was declining, Nelson was even an allstar as his teammate and Devin Harris was allstar. Even Billups, one of best PGs on east in that times was just 17 ppg scorer.
In general it was different era of basketball, good zone allowed teams to fill paint and that's why bigs like Howard and Ben Wallace were so valuable as strong man to man defenders, athletic and fast enough to help weak side.
Today, modern offense simply forces Cs to play on perimeter or lurk around not really knowing where to stand. We saw it this year with Embiid and Gobert and how easly they get overexposed when they end up staying against ballhandler 1 on 1 ,20 feet from rim.

Payton's main issue was pick&roll , if he plays in 2001 he would be good defender, now every play is pick&roll. He might benefit from playing with Davis who is capable of defending two men at once

[Skybox]

What makes Vučević or Evan more soft than any other Magic player?

2 years ago Evan lead team in FTA so it's not like he runs away from contact.

Few years ago Vuc was top 5 in offensive rebounds.

Also most of fans are "tired " of Evan after 5 years, same people will never point out that Gordon and Evan spent same lenght of time with Magic.

Most people here "love" how Isaac shoots mid range shots, hate it when Vučević does it.

I have no desire to call out anybody or make big thing about this, but double standards are running wild through this forum for years.

I don’t know if Vuc is soft- he may just be slow-footed. The first few years, Vuc pounded inside like McHale- nothing soft about that. I have to believe it’s schemes that dragged him out to the elbow and then to the perimeter, magnifying his weaknesses.
Evan has been the LEAST soft player on the Magic for years...he may not work hard on D, but he plays O with more heart and courage than anyone on team. I’ve seen him drive (selfishly?) gets smashed and hop up pissed off twice as many times as any other ( with or without the call- he’s “cursed” by being the only legit 3pt threat, so he needs to sit outside. He has all the tools to get 20ppg. Bamba ( despite his Gobert projections) could be the softest big in the league- unless he’s being ordered to hoist 3’s and stay outside where it’s safe. He’s a very nice, articulate young man who happens to have a twelve foot wingspan- I hope he has the killer instinct to own the lane...I hope I’m wrong long-term but Bamba, Isaac, and AG don’t mix it up inside often enough to be called anything but finesse players (yet)...When AG gets in there and pogo sticks like Rodman before smashing on someone...it’s the greatest, but Clifford needs to get him in there, angry, and above the rim more often. Last year’s perimeter dance is very limiting.

Point is...”soft Euro”is overused