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2022-2023 Magic Trade and Free Agency Idea Thread III

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Re: 2022-2023 Magic Trade and Free Agency Idea Thread III 

Post#1761 » by VFX » Tue Jul 4, 2023 9:19 pm

zaymon wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
Catledge wrote:
So because Paolo and Franz will need extensions in a few years, we therefore need to hand the starting pg spot to a rookie? Am I missing a connection point?


Kinda?

If the FO extends both Fultz and Cole it is a bad move.

We now have Suggs for 2 more years on a rookie deal and Jett/AB at 4 years.

You cannot pay everyone knowing those 2 will sign max deals. The justification of doing so makes no sense. Telling yourself "they'll figure it out later" is a dumb argument.


Going by your logic burying young players on the bench, extending them for cheap and then starting seems like the best strategy. Hiding assets and lowering their value. Starting rookies increases their value, often well beyond their talent becouse they can get stats for free.
I think that your strategy contradicts points that you are making.


It's not complicated.

You cannot pay 2 point guards significant money, while burying your #6 rookie scale draft pick, knowing you will absolutely be maxing two guys in 3 years. Orlando will spend nearly half of their cap space on two guys. People will argue that extending both Fultz and Cole makes sense despite knowing this. The argument being made is that they will just be moved later even though there is little market for them currently.
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Re: 2022-2023 Magic Trade and Free Agency Idea Thread III 

Post#1762 » by VFX » Tue Jul 4, 2023 9:23 pm

eyriq wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
eyriq wrote:
This literally makes no sense.


What are you confused about?


The ideas don't connect.

Idea 1: Paolo and Franz are going to sign max extensions
Idea 2: Therefore we can't extend Fultz and Cole

They are literally independent. We can do both.

So what I'm confused about is why you think they are dependent.

A tangential point is that the meta of roster building is probably changing due to the new CBA. Players aren't leaving so much in free agency as they are leaving via trades. An example of this is the Utah Jazz, who just extended Jordan Clarkson. Roster spots that are tradeable are more valuable now then they were before, just as cap space is less valuable.


How are those ideas independent if it all falls under the same cap space?

So instead of trading either point guard we will resign them to larger deals while we just drafted a guy in the lottery, which means they don't have to regardless. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.
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Re: 2022-2023 Magic Trade and Free Agency Idea Thread III 

Post#1763 » by SloNick Russia » Tue Jul 4, 2023 9:50 pm

Herro is a 30M per dude who made Miami play better by breaking his hand?

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Re: 2022-2023 Magic Trade and Free Agency Idea Thread III 

Post#1764 » by pepe1991 » Wed Jul 5, 2023 5:30 am

eyriq wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
eyriq wrote:
This literally makes no sense.


What are you confused about?


The ideas don't connect.

Idea 1: Paolo and Franz are going to sign max extensions
Idea 2: Therefore we can't extend Fultz and Cole

They are literally independent. We can do both.

So what I'm confused about is why you think they are dependent.

A tangential point is that the meta of roster building is probably changing due to the new CBA. Players aren't leaving so much in free agency as they are leaving via trades. An example of this is the Utah Jazz, who just extended Jordan Clarkson. Roster spots that are tradeable are more valuable now then they were before, just as cap space is less valuable.


But they aren't

Teams work under restricted salary cap.

If your team today, is 34-40 wins team and that same team has Fultz, Suggs, Cole, Black, Franz and Banchero on cumulative salary of $47M your team's $136M salary cap, how execlly your team will get better if same players make $130M in three years on some projected $180M salary cap? Internal growth won't make you 60 wins team and at some point OTHER players will be leaving or resigned and push you at luxury margin.

Now they make 34% of cap space, in future they will make around 72% !


Leaving via free agency nor trades doesn't really matter. They leave when they don't feel like team is doing everything in their power to maximise roster. They also demand trades and grant you wish lists. What Magic are doing with guard rotation is laughable on so many levels.

Our starting PG is unrestricted free agent in 2024.
Our backup PG/SG is restricted free agent. (Cole) in 2024.
Our other backup PG/SG, praised lottery pick from two years ago is also - eligiable for exstension after THIS season and RFA next year.

And we just drafted rookie PG with 6th overall pick.

But while all this is happening at PG, we really have no starting level SG, rather keep Harris with yet another wishy-washy approach when his contract was made, much like it was case with Ingles, Bamba and Mortiz. Putting money into 1+1 contracts just means they are unsure what execlly they want. Those contracts really are nothing different than Jeff Green's tennure here. People just elected to be outraged about Hennigan deals more, despite fact Weltman is "Hennigannning" salary cap with his contracts every year. ( i guess they didn't trade Oladipo for Ibaka so they aren't outraged, but still, most people here were actually thrilled about when that happened so...).

Anyhow, Black, drafted as college PG, probably won't even play PG for us in rookie year because there simply outright there isn't PG spot for him to play.

Jett Howard probably won't even be in active rotation for more than 40-50 games, if that, since we signed Ingles who on paper does the same things, just is way more experienced.

Yes, you don't draft players just because their rookie seasons to play, but you are also wasting yet another season "evaluating" something that doesn't need to be evaluated any further. Fultz isn't starting level PG on championship team ( maybe if other 2 players happend to be two- top 5 players?) , Harris isn't starting level guard any more. Cole and Suggs probably want to be more than NBA backups in future,especially going into contract years.
Why is so hard to move one of Fultz- Suggs- Cole for let's say backup C and create more fluid rotation?

Why it's so hard to figure Wendell Carter is injury prone and you simply CAN'T be in hunt for playoffs with C who is always on pace to miss 40% of season with some of the worst backups at C aveliable? Mortiz, Goga, won't cut it. They are fringe nba players.

I simply don't understand what's so hard here to figure. Roster menagment is key for sucess. That includes salary menagment. Re-singing everybody on fringe playoff team won't make your roster better. it will just make you expensive mediocre team.
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Re: 2022-2023 Magic Trade and Free Agency Idea Thread III 

Post#1765 » by drsd » Wed Jul 5, 2023 5:50 am

eyriq wrote:Idea 1: Paolo and Franz are going to sign max extensions
Idea 2: Therefore we can't extend Fultz and Cole

They are literally independent. We can do both.

So what I'm confused about is why you think they are dependent.


The tax is going to get very, very punitive. Even going over the cap will be costly to teams. The main effect will be on the middle class. Paying a big 8M a year to be a third stringer will not be something teams do going forward (M-Wagner lucked out in this year being in the previous CBA).

The good news here is for the "working class". The LLE floor is going way up. Even two-way players will soon be earning a million a year.
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Re: 2022-2023 Magic Trade and Free Agency Idea Thread III 

Post#1766 » by drsd » Wed Jul 5, 2023 6:17 am

Anti Chalmers wrote:
drsd wrote:Just realised that F-Wagner and Banchero are looking at 50M a year in their max contracts, each. Ooof.


Yep I don’t see us being able to afford Fultz, Suggs, and Cole along with those 2.


Well: Orlando shouldn't want to keep those three anyhow, given the two rookies.
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Re: 2022-2023 Magic Trade and Free Agency Idea Thread III 

Post#1767 » by zaymon » Wed Jul 5, 2023 6:40 am

MagicMatic wrote:
zaymon wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
Kinda?

If the FO extends both Fultz and Cole it is a bad move.

We now have Suggs for 2 more years on a rookie deal and Jett/AB at 4 years.

You cannot pay everyone knowing those 2 will sign max deals. The justification of doing so makes no sense. Telling yourself "they'll figure it out later" is a dumb argument.


Going by your logic burying young players on the bench, extending them for cheap and then starting seems like the best strategy. Hiding assets and lowering their value. Starting rookies increases their value, often well beyond their talent becouse they can get stats for free.
I think that your strategy contradicts points that you are making.


It's not complicated.

You cannot pay 2 point guards significant money, while burying your #6 rookie scale draft pick, knowing you will absolutely be maxing two guys in 3 years. Orlando will spend nearly half of their cap space on two guys. People will argue that extending both Fultz and Cole makes sense despite knowing this. The argument being made is that they will just be moved later even though there is little market for them currently.


We could make argument we drafted Black and Howard to not extend Cole and Markelle. So far that has been the case. I dont think we will extend them, maybe Cole for cheap.
My money is on Banchero going number 1 !
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Re: 2022-2023 Magic Trade and Free Agency Idea Thread III 

Post#1768 » by eyriq » Wed Jul 5, 2023 6:51 am

pepe1991 wrote:
eyriq wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
What are you confused about?


The ideas don't connect.

Idea 1: Paolo and Franz are going to sign max extensions
Idea 2: Therefore we can't extend Fultz and Cole

They are literally independent. We can do both.

So what I'm confused about is why you think they are dependent.

A tangential point is that the meta of roster building is probably changing due to the new CBA. Players aren't leaving so much in free agency as they are leaving via trades. An example of this is the Utah Jazz, who just extended Jordan Clarkson. Roster spots that are tradeable are more valuable now then they were before, just as cap space is less valuable.


But they aren't

Teams work under restricted salary cap.

If your team today, is 34-40 wins team and that same team has Fultz, Suggs, Cole, Black, Franz and Banchero on cumulative salary of $47M your team's $136M salary cap, how execlly your team will get better if same players make $130M in three years on some projected $180M salary cap? Internal growth won't make you 60 wins team and at some point OTHER players will be leaving or resigned and push you at luxury margin.

Now they make 34% of cap space, in future they will make around 72% !


Leaving via free agency nor trades doesn't really matter. They leave when they don't feel like team is doing everything in their power to maximise roster. They also demand trades and grant you wish lists. What Magic are doing with guard rotation is laughable on so many levels.

Our starting PG is unrestricted free agent in 2024.
Our backup PG/SG is restricted free agent. (Cole) in 2024.
Our other backup PG/SG, praised lottery pick from two years ago is also - eligiable for exstension after THIS season and RFA next year.

And we just drafted rookie PG with 6th overall pick.

But while all this is happening at PG, we really have no starting level SG, rather keep Harris with yet another wishy-washy approach when his contract was made, much like it was case with Ingles, Bamba and Mortiz. Putting money into 1+1 contracts just means they are unsure what execlly they want. Those contracts really are nothing different than Jeff Green's tennure here. People just elected to be outraged about Hennigan deals more, despite fact Weltman is "Hennigannning" salary cap with his contracts every year. ( i guess they didn't trade Oladipo for Ibaka so they aren't outraged, but still, most people here were actually thrilled about when that happened so...).

Anyhow, Black, drafted as college PG, probably won't even play PG for us in rookie year because there simply outright there isn't PG spot for him to play.

Jett Howard probably won't even be in active rotation for more than 40-50 games, if that, since we signed Ingles who on paper does the same things, just is way more experienced.

Yes, you don't draft players just because their rookie seasons to play, but you are also wasting yet another season "evaluating" something that doesn't need to be evaluated any further. Fultz isn't starting level PG on championship team ( maybe if other 2 players happend to be two- top 5 players?) , Harris isn't starting level guard any more. Cole and Suggs probably want to be more than NBA backups in future,especially going into contract years.
Why is so hard to move one of Fultz- Suggs- Cole for let's say backup C and create more fluid rotation?

Why it's so hard to figure Wendell Carter is injury prone and you simply CAN'T be in hunt for playoffs with C who is always on pace to miss 40% of season with some of the worst backups at C aveliable? Mortiz, Goga, won't cut it. They are fringe nba players.

I simply don't understand what's so hard here to figure. Roster menagment is key for sucess. That includes salary menagment. Re-singing everybody on fringe playoff team won't make your roster better. it will just make you expensive mediocre team.
This all seems very premature.

1. We are one of the most financially flexible teams in the league right now
2. We just improved by 12 wins
3. Recent signings have preserved financial flexibility
4. We don't know what the rotations will look like yet
5. Yes, we are in a trade warning, the 6 choose 4 backcourt situation requires a trade
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Re: 2022-2023 Magic Trade and Free Agency Idea Thread III 

Post#1769 » by SOUL » Wed Jul 5, 2023 7:25 am

Going to unsticky for now.
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Re: 2022-2023 Magic Trade and Free Agency Idea Thread III 

Post#1770 » by jezzerinho » Wed Jul 5, 2023 9:15 am

SOUL wrote:Going to unsticky for now.


FA and the trade market is still going on.

Wouldnt it make more.sense to unsticky the draft thread, as thats finished? Just my 2c.

Or is this your tacit admission that the FO completely ignores the trade market!!!!!
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Re: 2022-2023 Magic Trade and Free Agency Idea Thread III 

Post#1771 » by Catledge » Wed Jul 5, 2023 10:58 am

People are acting like they've never seen an NBA rookie before. There is a decent chance that Black never learns how to shoot well enough to be a starter in this league, and there is also a decent chance he turns out to not be a PG.
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Re: 2022-2023 Magic Trade and Free Agency Idea Thread III 

Post#1772 » by Skybox » Sat Jul 15, 2023 12:01 am

How did the trade thread get to page 2 in July? :crazy:

POR sends: Dame
POR gets: Fultz (expiring, good vet), Gary Harris(expiring, good vet), Jamie Jacquez, ORL 24 frp(top 6), DEN 25 frp(top 5), 2 MIA picks

MIA sends: Herro, Jacquez, Jovic, 2 frps (maybe add swaps or 2rps to POR?)
MIA gets: Dame, Chuma

ORL sends: Fultz, Harris, Chuma, 24 frp protected, Den 25 frp protected
ORL gets: Herro, Jovic…(assuming POR prefers Jacquez to Jovic, we take leftover- happily)(I’d prefer scrappy Jacquez but…)

Cole (for now), Black
Herro, Suggs, Jett
Franz, Ingles, Houstan
Paolo, Isaac, Jovic
WCJ, Goga, Wagner

IT’S TRADE SEASON! Lots of positional versatility, youth, length, shooting…we’ve got a lot of kids- trading our 24 for a proven scoring guard is a no-brainer. Weak draft and we expect to blast out of lottery (protected just in case of injuries, etc). We send out 3 guys who aren’t really in our future plans/expiring a late first and a legit first, likely late lottery or just beyond. Burn the ships- advance boldly!
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Re: 2022-2023 Magic Trade and Free Agency Idea Thread III 

Post#1773 » by cedric76 » Sat Jul 15, 2023 7:33 am

Skybox wrote:How did the trade thread get to page 2 in July? :crazy:

POR sends: Dame
POR gets: Fultz (expiring, good vet), Gary Harris(expiring, good vet), Jamie Jacquez, ORL 24 frp(top 6), DEN 25 frp(top 5), 2 MIA picks

MIA sends: Herro, Jacquez, Jovic, 2 frps (maybe add swaps or 2rps to POR?)
MIA gets: Dame, Chuma

ORL sends: Fultz, Harris, Chuma, 24 frp protected, Den 25 frp protected
ORL gets: Herro, Jovic…(assuming POR prefers Jacquez to Jovic, we take leftover- happily)(I’d prefer scrappy Jacquez but…)


Bring it back to page 2 to avoid seeing bad trades like this
Suggs, AB, Tyus, Jase
Bane, AB, TDS , Jett
Franz, TDS, Panda
P5, JI, Panda, Moe
Wcj, Goga, Moe
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Re: 2022-2023 Magic Trade and Free Agency Idea Thread III 

Post#1774 » by Skybox » Sat Jul 15, 2023 10:54 am

cedric76 wrote:
Skybox wrote:How did the trade thread get to page 2 in July? :crazy:

POR sends: Dame
POR gets: Fultz (expiring, good vet), Gary Harris(expiring, good vet), Jamie Jacquez, ORL 24 frp(top 6), DEN 25 frp(top 5), 2 MIA picks

MIA sends: Herro, Jacquez, Jovic, 2 frps (maybe add swaps or 2rps to POR?)
MIA gets: Dame, Chuma

ORL sends: Fultz, Harris, Chuma, 24 frp protected, Den 25 frp protected
ORL gets: Herro, Jovic…(assuming POR prefers Jacquez to Jovic, we take leftover- happily)(I’d prefer scrappy Jacquez but…)


Bring it back to page 2 to avoid seeing bad trades like this


Ok…what do you suggest, roll with 6 guards that arent really starters? Tank for a good one? Bank on Fultz’ shooting?
Trades are happening and ORL roster is loaded but unbalanced …seems like a relevant topic
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Re: 2022-2023 Magic Trade and Free Agency Idea Thread III 

Post#1775 » by Knightro » Sat Jul 15, 2023 11:58 am

Skybox wrote:Ok…what do you suggest, roll with 6 guards that arent really starters? Tank for a good one? Bank on Fultz’ shooting?
Trades are happening and ORL roster is loaded but unbalanced …seems like a relevant topic


Trades *should* happen, but how anyone could be confident in this front office's ability to make a tough decision is beyond me.

And no, finally a year too late deciding to blow up a roster that clearly couldn't compete wasn't a hard decision. And of the moves they made to finally tear down Hennigan's team, only one of them was actually good. The Gordon and Fournier trades were both pretty much terrible and they ended up moving Bamba and Ross for literally nothing.
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Re: 2022-2023 Magic Trade and Free Agency Idea Thread III 

Post#1776 » by Skybox » Sat Jul 15, 2023 12:18 pm

Knightro wrote:
Skybox wrote:Ok…what do you suggest, roll with 6 guards that arent really starters? Tank for a good one? Bank on Fultz’ shooting?
Trades are happening and ORL roster is loaded but unbalanced …seems like a relevant topic


Trades *should* happen, but how anyone could be confident in this front office's ability to make a tough decision is beyond me.

And no, finally a year too late deciding to blow up a roster that clearly couldn't compete wasn't a hard decision. And of the moves they made to finally tear down Hennigan's team, only one of them was actually good. The Gordon and Fournier trades were both pretty much terrible and they ended up moving Bamba and Ross for literally nothing.


Agree about AG and Evan...AG arguable because media are hung up on "firsts", but realists understand frps from young-ish contenders are basically a guaranteed salary slot as much as a serious asset. I look at late firsts and srps the way I look at Crypto...fake money to be traded.
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Re: 2022-2023 Magic Trade and Free Agency Idea Thread III 

Post#1777 » by orlando_joe » Sat Jul 15, 2023 12:49 pm

magic have best flexibility maybe ever....great prospects team filled with lottery pick high ceiling players no bad contracts..all there draft picks with a ton extra
and there are fans on here ripping the front office as inept ..crazy town i tell ya...lol
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Re: 2022-2023 Magic Trade and Free Agency Idea Thread III 

Post#1778 » by Skybox » Sat Jul 15, 2023 1:00 pm

orlando_joe wrote:magic have best flexibility maybe ever....great prospects team filled with lottery pick high ceiling players no bad contracts..all there draft picks with a ton extra
and there are fans on here ripping the front office as inept ..crazy town i tell ya...lol


I love what the FO has done...they've put themselves in an awesome position to make a move...but some here are recommending filling the bathtub with all the trade assets and congratulating themselves like Scrooge McDuck rather than actually utilizing them. Why keep drafting redundant mid-level prospects and allowing trade assets to depreciate before finally giving them away?

Owning options = Good thing

Doing nothing with them = Waste of a Good thing
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Re: 2022-2023 Magic Trade and Free Agency Idea Thread III 

Post#1779 » by Audi » Sat Jul 15, 2023 1:07 pm

Skybox wrote:
orlando_joe wrote:magic have best flexibility maybe ever....great prospects team filled with lottery pick high ceiling players no bad contracts..all there draft picks with a ton extra
and there are fans on here ripping the front office as inept ..crazy town i tell ya...lol


I love what the FO has done...they've put themselves in an awesome position to make a move...but some here are recommending filling the bathtub with all the trade assets and congratulating themselves like Scrooge McDuck rather than actually utilizing them. Why keep drafting redundant mid-level prospects and allowing trade assets to depreciate before finally giving them away?

Owning options = Good thing

Doing nothing with them = Waste of a Good thing


We wouldn’t know if they were/are in trade talks or not either way, so really all of this is self flagellation.

But it keeps the board active so I’m cool with it.
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Re: 2022-2023 Magic Trade and Free Agency Idea Thread III 

Post#1780 » by Skybox » Sat Jul 15, 2023 1:11 pm

Audi wrote:
Skybox wrote:
orlando_joe wrote:magic have best flexibility maybe ever....great prospects team filled with lottery pick high ceiling players no bad contracts..all there draft picks with a ton extra
and there are fans on here ripping the front office as inept ..crazy town i tell ya...lol


I love what the FO has done...they've put themselves in an awesome position to make a move...but some here are recommending filling the bathtub with all the trade assets and congratulating themselves like Scrooge McDuck rather than actually utilizing them. Why keep drafting redundant mid-level prospects and allowing trade assets to depreciate before finally giving them away?

Owning options = Good thing

Doing nothing with them = Waste of a Good thing


We wouldn’t know if they were/are in trade talks or not either way, so really all of this is self flagellation.

But it keeps the board active so I’m cool with it.


Is there some other point to this board than to discuss what we think they're doing/aren't doing/should be doing? IF ANY of us had the ability to just happily wait and see this Forum's ability to continue to sell 1,000 pop-up ads would be nil.

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