Position Battles: SG

[basketballRob]

Cole improved everywhere. The biggest improvement I noticed was around the basket. He was making shots that he usually missed in the first two seasons.

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[eyriq]

Cole improved everywhere. The biggest improvement I noticed was around the basket. He was making shots that he usually missed in the first two seasons.

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It's expected that he'd scale up his efficiency in a scaled down role. He's got good odds of being a good role player in the league

[jezzerinho]

Cole improved everywhere. The biggest improvement I noticed was around the basket. He was making shots that he usually missed in the first two seasons.

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Check out Cole's shooting map. He stopped taking stupid shots in areas he wasn't efficient from and concentrated on his good spots.

This is why i say we havent seen the best of Cole. He improved significantly in a lot of areas last year, incl finally discovering late in the season how to get around a screen

[VFX]

Post allstar game , 19 games played, 10 ,7 ppg, 52% TS. Now elaborate how much Fultz sucks if in same period, after allstar game, he had 58% TS and better net rating . Sorry man, you can't have it both. You can bit** and moan about Fultz every game , like MM and elect to put blindfold and "fanboy" hat on player that you like more, despite fact that player doesn't do anything even average, other than chases ball like a fool ,that also happends to lead to constant injuries. And no, your excuse can't be "he is young". There are rookies who are way more composed & productive than him, playing same position.

Since you decided to throw me into this discussion, I’ll just say that Suggs makes $7.2m right now on a rookie deal.

I don’t evaluate players the way you do Pepe. I take all factors into consideration before I make sweeping judgements here. Are you even using logic at this point?

I **** on Fultz because he makes nearly as much as Orlando’s other highest paid bench warmer, and highest paid player, Isaac.

If Fultz was making $6-8m I wouldn’t care at all about watching him play as an interim starter that everyone feels like they need to make qualifying statements about. He makes $17m+, will soon make much more, and statistically doesn’t work well with Orlando’s #1 overall pick. That’s the rationale whether you like it or not. It’s valid.

Someone can make the argument Fultz is technically still a rookie by minutes played in total. However, that goes out the window when we are talking about salary and total value return for his skillset. Have the knocks against his game been disproven in the timeframe? No they haven’t.

Suggs provides something few players on this roster do - defensive intensity at a whopping $7.2m for the next 2 seasons. I don’t need to listen to you blather on about stats that have been steadily increasing since he’s played more meaningful minutes. What do you propose? Jett Howard in his rookie season? Gary Harris showing up once every 5 games? You offer no alternatives and the poll shows that there are sane people still on this board.

The context is all there and you WILL have a point when/if he is unjustifiably making too much money to provide less on the court.

That isn’t the case yet, so you don’t have a point.

[T-Cat]

Suggs.

Sf and Pf are kinda given already.

We need a perimeter defender in our SL.

This is why I want Anthony Black in the SL from day one! He can offer so much to this team such as perimeter defense, initiating the offense and playing bully ball in the low post against smaller guards. Treat him like Fultz his 1st year in Orlando without that reliable jump shot, hoping he can improve in the future.

Also don't sleep on Fultz playing SG along with AB in the back cour because IMO Fultz is playing for a new contract and he could regain the 3 pt jumper that made him the #1 pick in 2017.

I also want Jonathan Isaac to play in the SL with Fran and Paolo but he will be limited in minutes to ensure he's healthy for the season.

[Catledge]

One small thing that bugs me about Suggs is his tendency to take extra long 3s. He actually spots up back there instead of hugging up to the line. This is the sort of thing that should be reserved for ultra-elite shooters, not guys who are still trying to develop a reliable three-point shot.

[Skin]

Suggs.

Sf and Pf are kinda given already.

We need a perimeter defender in our SL.

This is why I want Anthony Black in the SL from day one! He can offer so much to this team such as perimeter defense, initiating the offense and playing bully ball in the low post against smaller guards. Treat him like Fultz his 1st year in Orlando without that reliable jump shot, hoping he can improve in the future.

Also don't sleep on Fultz playing SG along with AB in the back cour because IMO Fultz is playing for a new contract and he could regain the 3 pt jumper that made him the #1 pick in 2017.

I also want Jonathan Isaac to play in the SL with Fran and Paolo but he will be limited in minutes to ensure he's healthy for the season.

Fultz could regain that 3pt jumper....

[Residual-Heat]

Read on Twitter

[VFX]

Read on Twitter

But he wasn’t Jalen Green in year 2. How could this be true?

[jonbob17]

Suggs prediction
15/5/5 50/35/80 7 attempts from 3 a game, 1.8 steals and 0.8 blocks in 30 minutes a game. With his defense, that is gold.

For reference if we put Suggs last years rates at 30 minutes a game (he only played 23minutes)
30 minutes 12.6/3.8/3.7 50/33/72 4.9 attempts from 3, 1.7 steals 0.6 blocks

He's not far off from being a productive offensive player with elite defense.

Also another interesting comp, as in this is who we need Suggs to turn into
Jrue Holiday 3rd year, ratio to 30 minutes a game for comparison sake
30 minutes 12.0/3.9/4.0 44/38/78 2.3 attempts from 3, 1.4 steals 0.3 blocks


Arguably Suggs 2nd year was more impressive than Jrue's third, and if Suggs shows any improvement this year on an increase in minutes he should surpass Holiday's year 3 by a good bit. Holiday was an all star in year 4, but offensive stats inflated by 37.5 minutes a game (would have lead league last season).
No idea why so many "fans" are writing this dude off...

[Residual-Heat]

Suggs prediction
15/5/5 50/35/80 7 attempts from 3 a game, 1.8 steals and 0.8 blocks in 30 minutes a game. With his defense, that is gold.

For reference if we put Suggs last years rates at 30 minutes a game (he only played 23minutes)
30 minutes 12.6/3.8/3.7 50/33/72 4.9 attempts from 3, 1.7 steals 0.6 blocks

He's not far off from being a productive offensive player with elite defense.

Also another interesting comp, as in this is who we need Suggs to turn into
Jrue Holiday 3rd year, ratio to 30 minutes a game for comparison sake
30 minutes 12.0/3.9/4.0 44/38/78 2.3 attempts from 3, 1.4 steals 0.3 blocks


Arguably Suggs 2nd year was more impressive than Jrue's third, and if Suggs shows any improvement this year on an increase in minutes he should surpass Holiday's year 3 by a good bit. Holiday was an all star in year 4, but offensive stats inflated by 37.5 minutes a game (would have lead league last season).
No idea why so many "fans" are writing this dude off...

and when he did play over 30 mpg, he averaged 14.6-6apg-4rpg on 55% TS.

I think those percentages youre expecting are a bit too high . I doubt he shoots over 50% from the field since he takes a lot of threes. Id say 45 fg%, 35 3pt%, 75 FT% would be great.

[Skin]

Post allstar game , 19 games played, 10 ,7 ppg, 52% TS. Now elaborate how much Fultz sucks if in same period, after allstar game, he had 58% TS and better net rating . Sorry man, you can't have it both. You can bit** and moan about Fultz every game , like MM and elect to put blindfold and "fanboy" hat on player that you like more, despite fact that player doesn't do anything even average, other than chases ball like a fool ,that also happends to lead to constant injuries. And no, your excuse can't be "he is young". There are rookies who are way more composed & productive than him, playing same position.

Since you decided to throw me into this discussion, I’ll just say that Suggs makes $7.2m right now on a rookie deal.

I don’t evaluate players the way you do Pepe. I take all factors into consideration before I make sweeping judgements here. Are you even using logic at this point?

I **** on Fultz because he makes nearly as much as Orlando’s other highest paid bench warmer, and highest paid player, Isaac.

If Fultz was making $6-8m I wouldn’t care at all about watching him play as an interim starter that everyone feels like they need to make qualifying statements about. He makes $17m+, will soon make much more, and statistically doesn’t work well with Orlando’s #1 overall pick. That’s the rationale whether you like it or not. It’s valid.

Someone can make the argument Fultz is technically still a rookie by minutes played in total. However, that goes out the window when we are talking about salary and total value return for his skillset. Have the knocks against his game been disproven in the timeframe? No they haven’t.

Suggs provides something few players on this roster do - defensive intensity at a whopping $7.2m for the next 2 seasons. I don’t need to listen to you blather on about stats that have been steadily increasing since he’s played more meaningful minutes. What do you propose? Jett Howard in his rookie season? Gary Harris showing up once every 5 games? You offer no alternatives and the poll shows that there are sane people still on this board.

The context is all there and you WILL have a point when/if he is unjustifiably making too much money to provide less on the court.

That isn’t the case yet, so you don’t have a point.

Fun convo here. Pepe sticking up for Fultz at the cost of Suggs made me smile. MM like many others are holding onto stock with Suggs name on it. I'm not there. I feel burnt on Suggs. I honestly didn't like him throughout his college season when others did. Then he fooled me when it came to the NCAA tournament and the predraft process. I caved in and followed the hype thinking that he could be our future star SG. I believed that he wouldn't get past Toronto, so when he did, AND we actually took him, it was a joyous memory that I can't forget. I really did think that there was a chance that we would pass up on him... just like we passed up on Cam Whitmore this year, who I didn't think would last to us. Now 2 sorry ass years later, Suggs has failed EVERYONE'S expectations. No one here can say that he fulfilled his hopes. If you want to say year 3 will be the year he finally does, that's just a statement full of hope at this point.

The way I see it, the Magic are gonna let Gary Harris have more starts than he deserves because that is the stupid play here. It takes us a long time to make smart changes. Also, Howard is not going to get much of anything this year. This is going to be the year that Cole Anthony and Jalen Suggs battle it out for our future 6th man role. If Suggs wins out, then he'll graduate to battling out with Howard for the future starting SG role next year. If Cole wins out, he'll get an extension, and get the money we were giving to Gary Harris. Suggs as the loser, will end up as on the trade block in the summer.

Simply put, Black and Howard will have to be given a lot more minutes to emerge in year 2 and that will result in lost role and minutes for the loser of the Cole/Suggs battle. Suggs has the leg up on Cole because of what we invested in getting him. So the Magic probably want him to win. Cole was drafted outside of the lottery... it won't be hard to let him go, other than the fact that he is a good locker room hype man.

[jonbob17]

and when he did play over 30 mpg, he averaged 14.6-6apg-4rpg on 55% TS.

I think those percentages youre expecting are a bit too high . I doubt he shoots over 50% from the field since he takes a lot of threes. Id say 45 fg%, 35 3pt%, 75 FT% would be great.

oh yah, sorry i was going 2 pt FG/3pt/FT.....forgot the standard was overall FG% first. yah almost no chance Suggs anywhere close to 50% in FG anytime soon.

actually if he could improve on last year's 50% from 2 just a bit...should help with the TS...i feel like Suggs was a little out of control early, and also wasn't getting many calls last year, really even too many offensive fouls several of which should have gone his way. i suspect his TS will be in the upper 50's (58 or higher) by the end of his rookie deal. He's too athletic for it not to..and the 3 point shooting is going to be at least respectable, the volume may temper TS% and FG% like you said.

[Residual-Heat]

What Suggs was able to do last season is more or less what i expected from him in his rookie year. That's not the end of the world, and really only delays what i thought would be his development timeline by one year. Coming into this last season, he actually performed very close to what i expected from him. Injuries limited his stats, but when he did play he performed as i expected. This season I expect him to average something like 14/5/5 on 44/34/75, while maintaining his defense. Hopefully he can stay healthy and play 30mpg. If he regresses then I'd be worried, but we'll see.

The issue with Suggs and his comparisons during the draft is that they were all over the place, from Jason Kidd, Deaaron Fox, to Jrue Holiday. None of these guys are similar LOL. There wasnt really a consensus of the type of player he could be at the time, but the vast majority did not project him to become a superstar #1 option, but more like at best 2nd option and more likely 3rd option. Personally, I thought at the time, and still think that he can be a better Eric Bledsoe (who was really nothing more than a defensive specialist in his first few seasons, and didnt break out until he was traded to PHX. Still, he was valuable in the play offs for the Clippers). Now if only we can find a Goran Dragic to pair him with in the backcourt it would be great not just for Suggs but for Franz and Paolo too.

As far as Suggs vs Fultz.. Look, we can trade Suggs today and it wont change the fact that Fultz cannot space the floor for our 2 best and most important players. Paolo and Franz like to drive to the rim, and Fultz is simply not a good fit for them regardless of Suggs. Suggs atleast has a chance to develop into an average 3pt shooter, and his catch and shoot % this season wasnt horrible. We also drafted another non-shooter in Black, and he's probably never going to be able to start alongside Fultz, so should we just trade him too? Or should we just trade the expiring contract 25 year old, below average PG who is probably the worst shooter of the 3? Why cant we just find a vet PG who can shoot? Then we can worry about Black and Suggs and how they fit.

[Last Guardian]

I guess some don’t understand that people are slotting Suggs in based on him improving, not based on what’s he’s already done. Now if your argument is he has to earn it first, that is fair. But reality is Harris is only other option and while his shooting accuracy is solid, does he really take enough for it to matter? And his good defender days are gone, I think he’s overrated and not nearly the stopper/disruptor Suggs is right now. No one can argue Suggs has been good offensively so far but given that we are still teetering on that developing/trying to win stage, he should be starter. Still developing offensively and will provide winning defense, so he fits right in.

[jezzerinho]

According to nba.com, Suggs was the only guard with a positive box +/- post January.

That was mainly delivered on the defensive side, but the offense did see an uptick across most categories.

The fat lady hasn't sung yet in the Suggs opera.

[Skybox]

I really hope Howard gets a real opportunity here. He checks a lot of boxes, assuming his defense isn’t atrocious.

I really like Suggs and I hope he makes the leap, but he’s a good pairing with Cole…Howard might be a better pairing with Black and Fultz (for now)…I would like to see Fultz moved (before he expires), start Cole/Suggs with Black/Howard getting real minutes. Harris always there to fill in and Suggs getting some (3rd string as needed) minutes at PG.

This is, of course, assuming we don’t make the big obvious move and move Fultz, Harris, and 2 picks (one of ours + DEN 25) for Herro and have a REAL, proven, legit young SG starting. Herro is also a guy who can handle and distribute- which opens the door to him playing some with Suggs, who, ultimately, will be our most impactful Guard - if his offensive efficiency just takes a very realistic next step up.

[yoyojw17]

I really hope Howard gets a real opportunity here. He checks a lot of boxes, assuming his defense isn’t atrocious.

I really like Suggs and I hope he makes the leap, but he’s a good pairing with Cole…Howard might be a better pairing with Black and Fultz (for now)…I would like to see Fultz moved (before he expires), start Cole/Suggs with Black/Howard getting real minutes. Harris always there to fill in and Suggs getting some (3rd string as needed) minutes at PG.

This is, of course, assuming we don’t make the big obvious move and move Fultz, Harris, and 2 picks (one of ours + DEN 25) for Herro and have a REAL, proven, legit young SG starting. Herro is also a guy who can handle and distribute- which opens the door to him playing some with Suggs, who, ultimately, will be our most impactful Guard - if his offensive efficiency just takes a very realistic next step up.

Low key in my opinion we will have to wait on such trades because value isn't realized. still in my opinion.... we would end up giving up the best player in fultz out of that group.

[The-Stallion70]

Suggs doesn't do anything well besides play defense.

I'd love to see Jett make it here because his size is nice to have at SG.

If both Black and Jett can eventually man the guard spots then the Magic will be perfectly switchable on defense, which is a huge asset.

[The-Stallion70]

I really hope Howard gets a real opportunity here. He checks a lot of boxes, assuming his defense isn’t atrocious.

I really like Suggs and I hope he makes the leap, but he’s a good pairing with Cole…Howard might be a better pairing with Black and Fultz (for now)…I would like to see Fultz moved (before he expires), start Cole/Suggs with Black/Howard getting real minutes. Harris always there to fill in and Suggs getting some (3rd string as needed) minutes at PG.

This is, of course, assuming we don’t make the big obvious move and move Fultz, Harris, and 2 picks (one of ours + DEN 25) for Herro and have a REAL, proven, legit young SG starting. Herro is also a guy who can handle and distribute- which opens the door to him playing some with Suggs, who, ultimately, will be our most impactful Guard - if his offensive efficiency just takes a very realistic next step up.

Low key in my opinion we will have to wait on such trades because value isn't realized. still in my opinion.... we would end up giving up the best player in fultz out of that group.

I am a Fultz fan but even I don't think he's better than Herro.

That I am not in a hurry to help Miami get Lillard.